A string of new bugs, (at least new to me), Ca read please.

[Papa Bear!]

Sadly, before the patch is even released, I seem to have encountered some new bugs.

Some of these may be addressed in the patch, its tough to be sure, but I don't remeber hearing of some of them so I don't think they are.

1. Income numbers display incorrectly. (specefically in the north provinces of Germany, I've had problems with the income. I would, for example, encounter situations where the expected new income from farm improvements would be less than it is now, I have considered the factors in the province, such as taxes, trade income, and mines, and still the farm expected farm income, or the current farm income, is displaying incorrectly).

2. Emissaries bribing rebels without my order? I'm not quite sure how to explain this, but rebel factions have been joining my cause. (which would seem like a reasonable feature, if not for the fact that on the same turn I notice a new province/empire, I also get a warning that peasants in the area are revolting). To be constructive I'll offer up 2 factors which seem like they could be related. First, I had previously possesed, (for 1 turn, during raiding), both of these provinces. And both of these rebel armies joined my cause during the same turn, (or the turn after), a loyalist army for my faction appeared where I'd just been invaded.

Secondly, I have from time to time tested bribing rebel armies, to see the cost, (though not specifically these armies, or at least, not just them, and certainly not recently). And I haven't been given any notification of an accepted bribe, nor flashing color units, nor any lost florins. (I've been keeping close track, so I'm quite sure of the flashing and the florins). Also of note, in one province I procurred 2 different stacks when they and the province joined me, which of course doesn't happen when you bribe a particular general.

3. Perhaps this isn't a bug, but if I offer my daughters hand in marriage to a King, how can he accept while simulataneously breaking off the alliance with me, in one year? (I am at war with the novrogs, an ally of hungarians. The hungarian king broke the alliance with me at the onset of hostilities, but when I sent my princess to try to sway him to my side, he agreed to the wedding but then cancelled our newly formed alliance). This could be considered a "feature" as Gil or activision might put it, except that when someone offers their daughter to me, and the alliance conflicts with another I already have, (due to war), my aide tells me that accepting the marriage proposal will render the other alliance void. Shouldn't the AI factions play by these rules too?

I'm tempted to comment on the aI crusades, just because I'm suspicious that their problem isn't as simple as "pathfinding," when the british have no ships... how could they possibly think moving away from their target is faster? I could believe the "trying to decide between a port and a land route" claim if they could use a port, but they can't.

That aside, and perhaps this is best for another thread, but I'm curious as to why hungary sided with novrogod...

I have the novrogod King beaten in influence, (by 2 or 3 crowns), I'm catholic, I'm hungary's neighbor, (which might seem like the reason if he was gonna invade me, but it certainly doesn't seem like it). Just curious there.

[hrvojej]

I'm not CA, but I hope you won't mind the comments.

1. No idea. I've heard people complaining before that the farm upgrade is listed as providing less money for the province than what the revenue is at the moment, but it always turned out to be that they either haven't taken into account trade & mining, or acumen/governor. If you have checked both of these, I guess it's something really weird (I haven't been paying that much attention to those issues; maybe you can compare/check with the list of basic income for all provinces that is floating around the forum?).

2. This has been known to happen, but I don't think we got a conclusive explanation why. It's not that you bribe the rebels, but they simply "decide" to join your cause. I have never seen this happening in my games, but I've seen several threads that have mentioned it.

3. I think this has something to do with either the wrong sequence of the events, or that they get to choose the allies again as if the hostilities between them have just broken out. What I observe is that, when they are not my allies, I get the message that the alliance is broken before the message that marriage is accepted. Now, either there's something fishy going on in the sequence, or they indeed accept the alliance, and then choose the other guys over you again in the same decision-making screen, meaning that the AI doesn't get the parchment that says "the new alliance will invalidate the present one momentarily", but rather an option to whom it would like to stay allied with as they did in the first place.
As to why they sided with the other party, it's probably the same old "let's beat up the human player" behaviour that always takes place in the late game.

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-27-2002).]

[Papa Bear!]

thanks, I'm particularly interested in the rebels thing...

(in both cases rebellions against my newly recruited rebels either took place, or were in the work)..

Which of course is difficult to understand..

I'm rather amused by the fact a province, (behind french lines mind you, but rebel), had declared fealty to me. Thus I get new troops, but then the inhabitants of that province revolt, with roughly 5x as many rebels as the first time, (the ones that joined me).

So not only do I get a free army, (admittedly traped behind enemy lines), but I also get the joy of a huge rebel army which will undoubtedly hold off several french attacks.

It really doesn't make any sense for them to join me, however. So I simply refuse to believe this is any sort of feature, (neither one of them liked me at all, in fact I think I had hostile relations with them).

[ToranagaSama]

Regarding your emissay bug,

I believe you'll find mention of this in the manual (I still haven't found my manual).

Simply put from memory, there will be times when, because of your King's "influence", that rebels "come over" to your side. I don't recall the manual mentioning any type of specific notice you might receive upon this event. Nonetheless, this may/will happen when/if the circumstances are right.

So, its not a bug, just a feature that's not too well documented, doesn't happen very often, and doubt wether it can be predicted.

Thinking on it and my style of play, it is most probably closely related to a "religious" revolt, possibly when there are no "surviving" royals. Would you say that's been your case? In my case, I have a vague recollection that the entire stack was of peasants. In any event, was having great success at the time, and had become the dominant faction in the region having pushed back either the Spanish or the Elmo. I believe the province was Equitaine.

Hmmm...thinking on it more, the British may have been eliminated, or more likely greatly reduced as a factor in the game. I think so, with only Scotland, Wales and Mercia. Consequently, the British King's influence would have been pretty low and who knows what he's vices were; while my King's influence would have been quite high and my King's usually have very good vices, cause I marry them well!!

Just my experience and thoughts. Not a Bug! Folks are too quick to yell BUG! when they don't understand something, which I think annoys the Devs; but whose fault is that?? The manuals!!?? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Re second, I believe if a parchment doesn't pop up when you drop an emissary then you weren't succesful in engaging the bribing mechanism. Somtimes, you may think you successfully dropped an agent when you may not have. After doing so, did you "right-click" to see the parchment displayed "bribing"?

Also, unless the province, with the rebel stack, has FULLY gone rebel then you will not be able to bribe that stack!

Often, a rebel stack will appear and the province will remain the property of the owning faction for a turn or two (or three). It may have to do with the ratio or rebel to faction troops. Might this be the case? Right-click on the province, again, unless the faction icons are "grey"/rebel you won't be able to bribe. Unfortunately, I don't believe there any "notice" message given in this situation. So, you've sorta got to be intuitive.

Again, not a bug, but, maybe, somebody neglected to write the proper "notification" code!!

3. Hey, everybody needs heirs. Give me your whore you swine!!

I have this happen to me as well, and found it curious. I've concluded that what occurs is a case of "simultaneous" "qued" events.

Ex., Prior to End Turn, you attack the Novogrod's ally: Break Alliance is put into the ("Thinking") queue; You drop your princess on the Nov's King: Proposal Acceptance is put into queue, etc. End Turn. Now the AI's got to resolve the queue. This is what's happening when the game says "Thinking"!:-)

The AI doesn't know that these are conflicting events. Not a coder, myself, but have a little knowledge. Unless the AI's been coded to check the "logic" of events entered into the queue then it won't catch such things; but, then again, perhaps it is coded and the Devs' view is that such events "might" not be known at the "exact" moment in time and could occurr.

You might know of the treachery your up to, but the Novogrod King might not, so would consent to a marriage and then discover after the fact, that you have attacked his ally.

One, the other or both, not a bug. Just a matter of circumstance.

[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 10-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 10-27-2002).]

[Papa Bear!]

oi... I thought I was long winded... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
thanks for the thorough reply though, now to consider:

"Thinking on it and my style of play, it is most probably closely related to a "religious" revolt, possibly when there are no "surviving" royals. Would you say that's been your case? In my case, I have a vague recollection that the entire stack was of peasants. In any event, was having great success at the time, and had become the dominant faction in the region having pushed back either the Spanish or the Elmo. I believe the province was Equitaine."

Well, there was no religous revolt, and I'm not sure what you mean by "no surviving royals," but one territory was previously french, but had rebelled, (and the french were still in power, with probably a point less influence than me at the time). This territory was behind french lines, and in posistion to be ceding to my empire, but furthermore, as I said, the inhabitants of the province quickly rebelled against these troops who had claimed the province for me, so if thats a feature, it is awefully poorly implemented. The second province never belonged to any other faction anyway, so I don't think royalty factored in, (but the novrogods were still alive at the time). It was the little one above lithuania, and I had held it briefly (1 turn) but it rebelled so I left. Again, after those armies joined me the loyalty in the region was horribely low, I had to move roughly 2 stacks there to keep them friendly. (which of course, again, doesn't seem to fit with the idea that the rebels were joining me).

Oh and my influence was probably 6-7 at the time, about equal with everybody else in the region. It quickly went up AFTER the rebellions when I crushed the novros for attacking me, but I don't see the rebels being able to anticipate my rise to power. (and all my kings have had crummy v&v, I think the current one was crack brained or some such).


"Re second, I believe if a parchment doesn't pop up when you drop an emissary then you weren't succesful in engaging the bribing mechanism. Somtimes, you may think you successfully dropped an agent when you may not have. After doing so, did you "right-click" to see the parchment displayed "bribing"?"

Perhaps I wasn't clear but this wasn't the problem. I wasn't not getting a parchement, I WAS successfully engaging the bribing mechanism, I simply wasn't going forward after I saw the expected cost.

"Often, a rebel stack will appear and the province will remain the property of the owning faction for a turn or two (or three). It may have to do with the ratio or rebel to faction troops. Might this be the case? Right-click on the province, again, unless the faction icons are "grey"/rebel you won't be able to bribe. Unfortunately, I don't believe there any "notice" message given in this situation. So, you've sorta got to be intuitive. "

I think you're confused. As I said though, this doesn't apply.


"Ex., Prior to End Turn, you attack the Novogrod's ally: Break Alliance is put into the ("Thinking") queue; You drop your princess on the Nov's King: Proposal Acceptance is put into queue, etc. End Turn. Now the AI's got to resolve the queue. This is what's happening when the game says "Thinking"!:-)"

Again I'm afraid this doesn't apply. As mentioned, (I think) I was already at war with the novrogods, and the Hungarians had already chosen their side. My issue was that I had sent a princess to convince them otherwise. (after the turn where our alliance was broken) So ya, I explained this thoroughly enough above, and this thread is long. But, I'm afraid this doesn't directly address my issue.

You may be correct and theres curious AI logic or queuing at work, but I also mention that above. (as I point out the player has to choose to cancel one alliance if he accepts another that is conflicting)

So, back to where I started, I consider these items bugs.

[edit: thanks for the help though].


[This message has been edited by Papa Bear! (edited 10-27-2002).]