The brilliance of Spartans [Archive]

Celtic_Punk

07-15-2008, 22:54

or so I thought, i had a silver chevron on both my spartans, sure we were heavily outnumbered... but how does the saying go? A spartan farmer asks not "how many" but "where are they?" and my hoplite regs, with 3 chevs stood their ground longer!

i lost the battle (because i trusted my flanks to a bunch of naked assholes from Dacia) but we killed thousands of them (2000 to be exact)

now, tell me this, why did my spartans run at 11 men, when my less experienced and not as well trained (not NEARLY aswell trained) not only stayed to the last man but killed more?

yes i know it has to do with moral, but arent spartans conditioned to NOT run?

im sure if you are surrounded by more than 500 guys the last thing on your mind is "oh shit i better run!" especially on a Spartan's mind... hes probably thinking "i wonder how many i can take with me to hell?"

is routing hardcoded so that all units can break? or could you possibly make a unit (not impossible to kill obviously) unbreakable? im not asking for a new EB build, im asking so i can put it in myself, and I'm not really technologically savvy :P

hell, the Spartans at Thermoplyae were rumoured to have replied to the warning of the persians arrow's blotting out the sun "Then we shall fight in the shade!" :guitarist:

before anyone tries to troll me and go on about "spartans were not ALL like the movie 300 depicted, but they were famed for their refusal to run no matter what the odds were. I wouldnt run if i believed id pay for it in the afterlife. WOULDN'T YOU?

QuintusSertorius

07-15-2008, 23:01

Usually a question of how fast they're being killed, rather than how many of them are left. If it's gradual attrition, many units will fight to the last man. On the other hand if they're dropping like flies, even the most elite unit will often rout.

teh1337tim

07-15-2008, 23:04

posibly morale
any unit will route regardless of their stats and experiance
if ur surrounded by 1000 people, surrounded, scared of unit casualties, and general dead etc
your prone to route
heck i routed a entire carthage army full of 3-6 chevs (they fought ptolem, ptolemai and seleukid had a ceasfire) just by killing the general, surrounding them, had 1000 more troops and troops were hidden (ambush bonus)

spartans do rout and they dont always fight 2 the death btw xD

Foot

07-15-2008, 23:07

Quite apart from the obvious spin surrounding the Spartans, this is Sparta of the 3rd century BC not their heyday in the 5th and 4th. Spartans are humans. Well trained and battle-ready, but human nonetheless. Depending on a number of factors they can outlast most other units on a field, but if you stick them in the middle of combat surrounded on all sides, or on the flank leaving them exposed down one-side expect them to run at some point.

As for being rewarded in the afterlife, pretty much any warrior society had that belief - if they died on the battlefield they would live again with grapes and stuff in the afterlife. Except, when someone has you surrounded and waving a spear in your face, its a bit difficult to concentrate on what has been promised in the afterlife, especially when the real-life is currently looking to be quite painful. No, Spartans ran just like any other. It has nothing to do with religious belief. Humans are poised to either fight or flight. Flight will eventually win, it is how well trained you are that will determine for how long you will fight.

Foot

QuintusSertorius

07-15-2008, 23:16

Humans are poised to either fight or flight.

Actually it's fight, flight or freeze. There are a few situations where freezing might save your life, but rarely as many as fighting or running.

Celtic_Punk

07-15-2008, 23:23

it was all gradual attrition, with more of their guys dropping than mine... i was just really confused since it was my regular hoplites who died in glory, than the Spartans who have that in their job description!

heres the rough numbers tho
Makedonia:
2600 infantry with no pike phalanxes (lots of mercs)
200 heavy cavalry
200 heavy general cavalry

Greece:
1300 infantry:
244 spartans
125 spartan general (my king)
100 greek general (he was a spartan himself, so why does he not appear with a unit of spartans?)
200 naked dudes from dacia
10 heavy greek noble cavalrymen
100 cretan archers (who got butchered when their general broke through my flank of my naked dacians)
350 Hoplite regs (had to put merge the three units and ended up with like 25 leftover)
400 galatian shortswordsmen

left em with less than 1000 so, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION i did well *shrugs*

my king fled the battlefield when he realized his entire unit was butchered by their prince. doesnt make it any less cowardly. his son had the balls to die with his men.

in any case, i'm out of a Proffessional army. What should i use as my core? Spartans or regular hoplites? considering what happend here i might just abandon my plan of a full spartan army (with cavalry and archer support obviously) With Pyhrros' successors (i chopped that bugger's head off in his own capital) on the west, and makedonia trying to retake pella (they only have byzantium) i need to build another proffessional army as my invaision of byzantium failed.

QuintusSertorius

07-15-2008, 23:33

Classical Hoplites are brilliant, they'll hold til the End Times come. But if you want a bit more colour, Celto-Hellenic hoplites are solid, and have javelins too.

Also: peltastai. They're versatile and competent. Good skirmishers and dependable medium infantry in a scrap too.

Celtic_Punk

07-15-2008, 23:34

hmmm your flashy words about the classic hoplites have intrigued me, I'm sold!

are there any reforms with the KH? im at 241BC now

My professional army (which is basically my central mobile army stationed in the centre of Greece that i don't disband after a campaign) is usually comprised of a core of Classic Hoplites, 1-2 Generals 2 wings of cavalry, 2-3 units of archers (CRETANS ARE A MUST) any kind of skirmish unit held behind my hoplites. And barbarian mercenaries (preferably naked [haha] and armed with swords or axes or falxes) to hold my flanks. I will usually have my general(s) behind my skirmishers between my archers to engage threats like cavalry on the flanks, or plug holes in the battleline.

QuintusSertorius

07-15-2008, 23:37

hmmm your flashy words about the classic hoplites have intrigued me, I'm sold!

are there any reforms with the KH? im at 241BC now

I stopped using them as the centre of my line because they made battles too easy. Seriously, they'll even hold the front of a phalanx. Which gives your peltastai, thureophoroi and others time to get into their flanks and rear.

No idea about KH reforms.

Hax

07-15-2008, 23:43

The Koinon Hellenon get access to Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai (shiny Makedonian phalanx formation guys) when the vanilla March of Time hits.

Celtic_Punk

07-15-2008, 23:43

too easy? this much is true, but you are BUGGERED if your flanks are broken and you cannot resecure them. which is why i lost my professionals to makedon when they broke through the left flank. They didnt engage my rear, but caught my king (who i sent to stop them) pinned him and surrounded him with some spearmen, which they were then butchered.

what is an effective flank guard that i will have ready access to? phalanx's -classical or not- are not equipped for such a task.

Foot

07-16-2008, 00:02

A flank is there to be lost. The centre line holds the opponents while one of the flanks destroys its opposite and the other flank of your line holds their attempt to do the same. The trick is to break your opponents flank and destroy their centre before your opponents do the same. For that purpose your holding flank is best held by Classical Hoplites with the guard mode on, they don't kill the enemy as much but the hold out for longer. Spartans hold better than classical hoplites.

Foot

Teleklos Archelaou

07-16-2008, 00:10

Were they a general's unit? If so, the general might have gotten some awful traits.

||Lz3||

07-16-2008, 00:11

I'm not happy at all with peltestai , last time I used them was to fill a gap in my lines , defending against (if I'm not wrong) to iberii emm... something (iberian infantry mercs) :sweatdrop:, then I suddendly realized that they were routing , at the end of the battle when I saw the ... battle description(?) they had only killed 9 and lost 78 ,the wort unit by far , and I had lucanians , bruttians, samminici , hell even leves did overall better :shifty:

(NOTE: on an interesting side note , all of the 78 losses were magically healed , I really laughed at that 100% recovery ... persian immortals :laugh4:)

QuintusSertorius

07-16-2008, 00:25

I give you a cheap, easily-recruited (available virtually everywhere) and easily-replaced (all mercenary units which you can hire to swap out losses if need be) main battle line, which is surprisingly effective:

4 x Classical Hoplites
2 x Thureophoroi
2 x Peltastai

Arranged thus:

Pel--Thu--ClH-ClH-ClH-ClH--Thu--Pel

Add whatever other skirmishers (slingers and Kretan archers are a favourite of mine) and cavalry (I like Curepos and Thrakian Prodromoi) you like. Optionally add some heavy infantry between Thureophoroi and Peltastai, or just flanking the hoplites in the centre (Thorakitai are good for the latter).

I'm not happy at all with peltestai , last time I used them was to fill a gap in my lines , defending against (if I'm not wrong) to iberii emm... something (iberian infantry mercs) :sweatdrop:, then I suddendly realized that they were routing , at the end of the battle when I saw the ... battle description(?) they had only killed 9 and lost 78 ,the wort unit by far , and I had lucanians , bruttians, samminici , hell even leves did overall better :shifty:

(NOTE: on an interesting side note , all of the 78 losses were magically healed , I really laughed at that 100% recovery ... persian immortals :laugh4:)

Were they on guard mode? I almost always have every unit that's facing the enemy's front on guard mode. Lower casualties, saves their energy for killing the enemy when they rout. And Peltastai are fast when it comes to chasing down enemy infantry.

Reverend Joe

07-16-2008, 00:35

Also, Peltastai really are better for agressive flanking. Spear units in guard mode should be used for a defensive flank; Peltastai should be used to outflank.

Havok.

07-16-2008, 00:39

I agree with Reverend Joe on that

||Lz3||

07-16-2008, 03:59

well still 7 kills to 89 casualties... is kinda crappy...:smash:

especially since even the lucanians who were sorrounded by 3 elite cartaginian troops , they... eventually routed too but they did waaay better than the peltestai, perhaps I was expecting too much from them since I've been hearing how great they are... I guess I'll stay with lucanians :sweatdrop:

lobf

07-16-2008, 05:57

Actually it's fight, flight or freeze. There are a few situations where freezing might save your life, but rarely as many as fighting or running.

Interesting timing. My girlfriend works at Starbucks, and they launched a new drink today. Her manager went with her to give out samples on her way to do the deposit, and right outside the bank door a man came up and asked for one. He chatted with them for a moment, then said "I'm sorry, but I have to take your bag." It was a single-strap messenger bag and it was around one shoulder and across her chest. She was holding it as he said that I guess because she just froze with her hands on the strap. He tried to grab it from her and under normal circumstances she would have just given it to him to avoid getting hurt, but in the end he ran off without the money because she was petrified.

So yeah. Quintus makes a good point.

Celtic_Punk

07-18-2008, 00:39

My confidence in my Spartans has been re-established. My king and 4 units of Spartan hoplites shipped to Syracuse, upon landing we began our siege (and to give us a little incentive i sailed my ship back to Peloponnese [really just to pick up a 1 talent stonethrower >:D ] )
and mr Heiro sallied forth!!! well it was 610 spartans vs 2200 syracusians. and we beat em infront of their own walls, then my king grabbed the ladders and charged forth to the walls. after hard street-street fighting, we were left with 138 men and they had none (woulda had 200 something, but the stupid bastards got pegged by arrows from the towers that i thought they captured)

most of our casualties were from towers lol

my king was heard saying during the battle atop the gate's battlements "THIS IS SPAAAARTAAAAAA!!!!"

Jolt

07-18-2008, 01:51

Actually it's fight, flight or freeze. There are a few situations where freezing might save your life, but rarely as many as fighting or running.

Actually, Sima Yi divides in 5 things, men can do in war:

"You can attack, then attack;
If you cannot attack, defend;
If you cannot defend, flee;
If you cannot flee, surrender;
If you cannot surrender, die."

Curiously, the man to who he said that only had the last option. :P

Celtic_Punk

07-18-2008, 02:13

i dont flee, i tactically retreat to fight another day! :duel:

I rarely use peltasai, the only semi-decent ones are the heavy peltasts, and contrary to their description they cant hold the battleline. they can augment, but i find they do more harm then good if they get mixed up with your classic hoplites (i dont use the "technologically revolutionized" hoplites)

the job of skirmishers can easilly be done with any mercs armed with javlins (i use "barbarian" units behind my hoplites as skirmishers and then plug any holes with them, or use them to flank and destroy) or missile cavalry. I am a huge fan of the elite noble cavalry you can recruit in Epiros.

must you recruit Cretan archers are mercs only? or can i get em from the regluar barracks or do i have to use the native barracks only on crete?

MerlinusCDXX

07-18-2008, 08:27

@ Celtic Punk
RE: Kretan Archers

Don't know about other factions, but as Arkhe Seleukeia or Ptolemaioi, you get them from a level 4 factional barracks in Antiocheia, Alexandria or Krete. For other factions that can get them, to recruit them from a building, you need a level 4 regional barracks on Krete only. Other Hellenic factions might be able to get them as factional units. The recruitment viewer is a good place to find that info, check the low-numbered MIC (@ lvl 4) on the list to see if they show up there, if so, you're good to go.

QuintusSertorius

07-18-2008, 09:43

I rarely use peltasai, the only semi-decent ones are the heavy peltasts, and contrary to their description they cant hold the battleline. they can augment, but i find they do more harm then good if they get mixed up with your classic hoplites (i dont use the "technologically revolutionized" hoplites)

the job of skirmishers can easilly be done with any mercs armed with javlins (i use "barbarian" units behind my hoplites as skirmishers and then plug any holes with them, or use them to flank and destroy) or missile cavalry. I am a huge fan of the elite noble cavalry you can recruit in Epiros.

Peltastai are the heavy ones; the light ones are akontistai. And they most certainly can hold a line, provided they're on the flanks, not right in the centre of it. They also have a lot more javelins than any unit with precursor missiles (six compared to two or three).

tapanojum

07-18-2008, 10:09

I started using Heavy Skirmishers once I read how good they are here, and I have not been led down. 9 kills and 78 casualties sounds really off, they were probably caught doing something they shouldnlt. I've had heavy skirmishers hold flanks against superior enemies for a long time, and they are excellent at flanking!

I've found them to be one of the most reliable units I can recruit for their cost.

Celtic_Punk

07-18-2008, 18:26

your best flank guards ive found are spartans, then hold some light "barbarian" swordsmen or axemen right behind your spartans, use them to outflank because they are quick and deadly, and can still have good defence because of shield and skill.

QuintusSertorius

07-18-2008, 18:39

I find Thureophoroi better flank guards than hoplites - they've got lots of javelins and the stamina to be able to hold, then chase once you've got your cavalry into the enemy's rear.

As before, provided you're on guard mode, almost any unit with decent armour and a shield can hold the front long enough to get your hammer in place.

Celtic_Punk

07-18-2008, 18:47

if a unit gets surrounded or the front changes shape a bit, guard mode seems to get my guys killed, so i generally take it off if the frontline isn't straight

QuintusSertorius

07-18-2008, 19:06

I always have everyone who's actually in contact with the enemy front, on guard mode. Never had any issues with it in literally hundreds of battles.

Invariably I find the AI is too stupid to actually address the whole of my frontage anyway (even when they outnumber me), so being outflanked in a meaningful way (ie pinned at the front and someone moving around you) never happens.

Celtic_Punk

07-19-2008, 04:28

i find they engage 2/3s of my front, and they try to outflank and make a sort of J shape around my flank, which i just send my flankers (rugby term for all you yanks) to surround them, then the whole battle degenerates into a big clump of guys intangled in a deadly deathmatch.

Havok.

07-20-2008, 00:16

Celtic_Punk

07-20-2008, 02:48

oh well, the crazy intertwined melee of death is pretty cool to watch *shrugs*

i always feel bad if i lose guys meaninglessly though. especially when i lose them to missile fire...

all combat, even modern warfare, should be settled as men, man to man, hand to hand. :duel:

Celtic_Punk

07-20-2008, 02:54

Havok.

07-20-2008, 03:30

is there anyway to make the battle AI a little smarter, and no putting the difficulty up doesn't help, it just gives the AI massive bonus' and makes your units rout like little pansies.

edit: sorry for double post.

For campaign smartness, i'd say Ai balancing mini mod (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87649) might do a difference, while in battle, Ai battle fomation (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90313) might do something about it as well

otherwise i think there's no way to improve it, since is basicly hard-coded