Something to think about...(US longevity)

[SwordsMaster]

I found this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7511426.stm) on the BBC today, and, while not unexpected, i thought it was worth mentioning. Anyone have any thoughts of this?



Americans live shorter lives than citizens of almost every other developed nation[...] Overall, the American Human Development Report ranked the world's richest country 12th for human development.
The study looked at US government data on health, education and income.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Our 3rd world immigration levels are more profound than most other nations on earth. I'd unscientifically venture to say that this is a leading factor.

Immigrants are 12.81% of our National population and they tend to be from considerably less developed nations. We have a significantly higher load factor than the other modernized countries.

We also have massive Urban black populations, which most other leading nations can't boast. They have the lowest life expectancy of any ethnic group in the survey.

This might help to explain why we are much lower on the list.

I looked Swedish Demographics up in the world fact book and wiki, but for some reason they have almost no ethnic demographic information. Interesting. They can manage everything else, but with a population 34 times smaller than the US they have no understanding of what ethnicity their citizens are. I suspect that this is because everyone would know how thoroughly white they are. Yes they have a high immigrant population (slightly lower than the US in percentage) - but how big are the 3rd world or low income minority populations? Ours are simply staggeringly huge. Only around 70% of the US population is white or Asian - that means that only 70% contribute positively to the survey while a staggering 30% negate the effects. Show me a nation with that kind of handicap. It is very easy to say "you have to take the population as a whole", but give me a break. The US is a much different country.

I'm not saying that immigration is a bad thing, but we have a tremendous demographic handicap in this area that needs to be aknowledged.

[TevashSzat]

Our 3rd world immigration levels are more profound than most other nations on earth. I'd unscientifically venture to say that this is a leading factor.

Immigrants are 12.81% of our National population and they tend to be from considerably less developed nations. We have a significantly higher load factor than the other modernized countries.

We also have massive Urban black populations, which most other leading nations can't boast. They have the lowest life expectancy of any ethnic group in the survey.

This might help to explain why we are much lower on the list.

And....obesity in America is a very serious issue. Overweight/obese will lead to heart disease, diabetes, and all other sorts of nasty things that tend to cut your life short

[drone]

And....obesity in America is a very serious issue. Overweight/obese will lead to heart disease, diabetes, and all other sorts of nasty things that tend to cut your life short

Plus the guns. We can't forget about all the guns. ~D

[SwordsMaster]

Our 3rd world immigration levels are more profound than most other nations on earth. I'd unscientifically venture to say that this is a leading factor.

Immigrants are 12.81% of our National population and they tend to be from considerably less developed nations. We have a significantly higher load factor than the other modernized countries.

We also have massive Urban black populations, which most other leading nations can't boast. They have the lowest life expectancy of any ethnic group in the survey.

This might help to explain why we are much lower on the list.


That's a pile of cr*p. "We have 15% of immigrants, therefore our education, and healthcare are bad?"
That's not even an argument for a developed country.



I looked Swedish Demographics up in the world fact book and wiki, but for some reason they have almost no ethnic demographic information. Interesting. They can manage everything else, but with a population 34 times smaller than the US they have no understanding of what ethnicity their citizens are. I suspect that this is because everyone would know how thoroughly white they are. Yes they have a high immigrant population (slightly lower than the US in percentage) - but how big are the 3rd world or low income minority populations? Ours are simply staggeringly huge. Only around 70% of the US population is white or Asian - that means that only 70% contribute positively to the survey while a staggering 40% negate the effects. Show me a nation with that kind of handicap. It is very easy to say "you have to take the population as a whole", but give me a break. The US is a much different country.

I'm not saying that immigration is a bad thing, but we have a tremendous demographic handicap in this area that needs to be aknowledged.

Sweden doesn't have detailed demographic data because it treats all its citizens the same, regardless of ethnic origin. Which shouldn't matter in a developed nation, right?

Besides, regardless, the data provided by state is bad anyway, and the fact that the state is failing to provide for its poorest and weakest citizens, forcing them to die 10 years younger is simply appalling.

[ICantSpellDawg]

That's a pile of cr*p. "We have 15% of immigrants, therefore our education, and healthcare are bad?"
That's not even an argument for a developed country.



Sweden doesn't have detailed demographic data because it treats all its citizens the same, regardless of ethnic origin. Which shouldn't matter in a developed nation, right?

Besides, regardless, the data provided by state is bad anyway, and the fact that the state is failing to provide for its poorest and weakest citizens, forcing them to die 10 years younger is simply appalling.

That is ridiculous. The survey is just another one used to embarrass the U.S. Compare our white population's longevity with Sweden's white population and I think you'll find a very similar number, maybe the U.S. will have a slightly lower rate.

When you have 12.8 percent of your population that is black and has third world longevity rates, come back and compare us. Or when you take another 10% from Mexico... and a further 5% from other 3rd world latin american nations. When you do both, then it is a fair comparison. Sure we need to work on it, but give me a break - we are having a different experience altogether.

America is the devil. Our racist gun culture and habitual nationally supported murder and ethnic cleansing is finally catching up to us. The Wild west supposedly ended years ago - i don't know why we are still living in it. The US is such a global disgrace. Now we are "forcing our citizens to die 10 years younger" than they naturally should! Abominable. I'm surprised we haven't started calling these times the "dark ages" in America what with all the ignorant religiosity to boot.

We're doing just fine and we need to keep going forward. The HDI lists us as #12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

[Geoffrey S]

Because a number of other nations make it too easy to stretch, stretch, stretch those final years in bed?

[SwordsMaster]

That is ridiculous. The survey is just another one used to embarrass the U.S. Compare our white population's longevity with Sweden's white population and I think you'll find a very similar number, maybe the U.S. will have a slightly lower rate.

When you have 12.8 percent of your population that is black and has third world longevity rates, come back and compare us. Or when you take another 10% from Mexico... and a further 5% from other 3rd world latin american nations. When you do both, then it is a fair comparison. Sure we need to work on it, but give me a break - we are having a different experience altogether.

America is the devil. Our racist gun culture and habitual nationally supported murder and ethnic cleansing is finally catching up to us. The Wild west supposedly ended years ago - i don't know why we are still living in it. The US is such a global disgrace. Now we are "forcing our citizens to die 10 years younger" than they naturally should! Abominable. I'm surprised we haven't started calling these times the "dark ages" in America what with all the ignorant religiosity to boot.

We're doing just fine and we need to keep going forward. The HDI lists us as #12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index


Now, firstly, I don't know why you're getting so defensive. I do think a country with the highest GDP has to take care of its own citizens first, which the US is obviously not doing. France, with 8% immigrant population ranks higher than the US, and Spain, with 11% is just below with a much lower GDP. Hell, even Ireland ranks higher. So don't give me the immigration shpiel.

Your gun culture may or may not have a part in this, and isn't part of the debate, however racial divisions and attention to people's race runs much deeper in the US than in any other country I've been to, except, perhaps, Russia. Even I'm not too sure about that. Just watching CNN point out that this or that man is defending the interests of blacks or whites or latinos in his community as opposed to defending the interests of the whole community is quite appalling.

As is watching the presidential candidates go after the "white" vote or the "latino" vote. As if people didn't want jobs, safe homes, lower taxes, healthcare, education and prosperity because they're latinos or not.

There is no point in being proud of having the biggest weapons and making fun of the french, if they live longer and better.

That being said, the HDI of the UK is equally appalling if not more.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Why is French Guiana so developed on that Wikipedia map?

It's more developed than the UK apparently.

Anyway, the US population is made up 99.9% of immigrants. :wink:

[Marshal Murat]

however racial divisions and attention to people's race runs much deeper in the US than in any other country I've been to,

I am not really surprised with this. Because of the Jim Crow Laws and Southern Prejudices, Blacks were disenfranchised shortly after Reconstruction ended. This created a collective 'African-American' identity, and when they began the Civil Rights movement in the 20th century, they identified the black minority oppressed by the white Southern majority. This ensured a continuation of the 'African-American' ideals, despite them never having been to Africa. That's what I remember from U.S. history...

How does this matter? In the 1970s until modern-day, minorities (mostly based on skin color) have been seeking their own "special" recognition and "equality" with the white majority. Most of the time it's :wall: stuff (Black hole? That's offensive!) that continues the feeling that somehow Blacks need more special care than Whites. Personally, it's BS. Culture of victimization that continues the process.

This culture of victimization seems to also involve a 'special history' of how you've been mistreated, and how 'whitey' should pay for those years of pain and suffering.

I just think if we don't live that long, it just means we need to have more fun to make up the difference!

[TinCow]

I'm not surprised. We're the world leaders in obesity and that alone shaves a large number of years off your life expectancy. At the rate some of you Europeans are going though (I'm looking at you, Britain and Germany) we'll soon have company at the bottom of the list.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm not surprised. We're the world leaders in obesity and that alone shaves a large number of years off your life expectancy. At the rate some of you Europeans are going though (I'm looking at you, Britain and Germany) we'll soon have company at the bottom of the list.

I think Scotland has officially overtaken you for obesity. If Scotland does become independant, then the US will look much better in future surveys.

In the UK you always hear on the news that, maybe some part of Liverpool has the lowest life expectancy in England & Wales. And then they add that this did not include Scotland, where half the central belt scores even lower.

Hoots mon!

[Whacker]

We're also the most overworked in the world with some of the worst legally required vacation allowances. I was surprised to find that a study showed us roundly beating the Japanese in terms of overall hours worked per capita. All work and no play = higher stress, and higher stress leads to it's own plethora of ravages on the body and shortened lifespan. I'll look for that study but my Google-fu can be weak sometimes.

[Husar]

When you have 12.8 percent of your population that is black and has third world longevity rates, come back and compare us.

So whether you die early or not has everything to do with whether you're black or not and nothing with what you eat or how good the hygiene standards in your country are? :inquisitive:

Did you know that showering too often is bad for your immune system?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Did you know that showering too often is bad for your immune system?

I remember hearing British people were more vulnerable to illnesses than the French due to their showering much more often.

*Awaits barrage from Louis VI the Fat*

[Louis VI the Fat]

US white males live six years longer than blacks. For women the gap is five years. Stats. (ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Health_Statistics/NCHS/Publications/Health_US/hus07figures/Fig18.xls)

The more striking problem, or paradox, in US healthcare is that healthcare expenditure in the US is much higher than in comparable nations, yet health standards and life expectancy are generally much lower. In other words, there is a huge difference in bang for buck. The US spends 16% of its GDP on healthcare, dollars which yield far less results than almost anywhere else in the developed world. Americans need to sit down with their health and pharmacy conglomerates and have a long, hard talk why they are not delivering. Thankfully, there is a great presidential candidate who's been hammering on this problem for fifteen years now and she could really make a difference and



Why is French Guiana so developed on that Wikipedia map?

It's more developed than the UK apparently.French Guyana is a département of France, an integral part and not an overseas territory, and hence shares French statistics. A good comparison would be Hawaii, which is simply a US State.

All of which means that even with Third World countries like Guyana, Guadeloupe and Martinique added in the statistics France is still more developed than the UK. :smash:

Ah, the blessings of few showers...~;)

[Ironside]

Tuff they don't have that info because the central bureu of statistics (scb) got too advanced stuff for those poor pages.

There's currently 1.227.770 immigrants in Sweden 2007, total population 9 182 927 (2007). That gives a percentage of 13,37% immigrants.
If you wish to know what countries they're from here's the link for you to toy around with It's even in English for the barbarians who doesn't know Svenska (http://www.scb.se/templates/Listning2____223692.asp) :book:

You do have point about skin colour, I don't know how many of the 15309 resident Americans who are black, as they don't make statistics on that.

[HoreTore]

I'm not surprised. We're the world leaders in obesity and that alone shaves a large number of years off your life expectancy. At the rate some of you Europeans are going though (I'm looking at you, Britain and Germany) we'll soon have company at the bottom of the list.

That's one advantage of living in a country(Norway) with ridiculously lousy cuisine. There's no chance in hell I'll be eating myself to death on norwegian food anytime soon.



I'd probably be dead by now if I lived in france or italy though.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Since when did you need fine cousine to eat yourself to death?

Deep fried mars bars anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-fried_Mars_Bar

[Ice]

I found this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7511426.stm) on the BBC today, and, while not unexpected, i thought it was worth mentioning. Anyone have any thoughts of this?

Surprise, Surprise

Our diets can be attributed to this.

[discovery1]

Don't we also have very high infant mortality?

Relative to other developed countries anyway.

[Ironside]

Don't we also have very high infant mortality?

Relative to other developed countries anyway.

Yes, for a western country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate_(2005))

One of the reasons you're rated relativly low on healthcare.

[HoreTore]

Since when did you need fine cousine to eat yourself to death?

Well, being able to eat the food is pretty much required :clown:

[Rhyfelwyr]

You tellin' me you can't handle a deep fried mars bar?

[HoreTore]

That thing won't enter my mouth, no sir.

[Reverend Joe]

Since when did you need fine cousine to eat yourself to death?

Deep fried mars bars anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-fried_Mars_Bar

They look like deep fried turds... :tongue:

@Swordsmaster: just for the record, I think you see a lot more racism in the U.S. because people are acknowledging and fighting it, and because it takes on a very different flavor than in Europe. In the U.S., the racism occurs within the borders; European racism is generally more directed towards people outside the country, so they don't have to think about it. But when the problem comes home, I frankly don't see any real difference between the two. Case in point: ask the average German what he thinks about Turks and he will go on a tirade that sounds surprisingly similar to an extreme version of the anti-Hispanic sentiment in America. Or look at France's and Holland's problems with Muslims. Or, going back a few decades, the French who would harass my mother (who was studying in France) about the Civil Rights issue in America; but when questioned about their treatment of Algerians, would respond (and I quote) "Oh, that's different -- they are animals!"

Europe may look less racist, but it's only because Europeans have had to deal with much less immigration. Hell, maybe we should all just move back to Europe and bring all our minorities with us. Let's see how tolerant you are within a few years. :2thumbsup:

And as to the original point... yeah, our healthcare is in shambles. And I used to be a fan of Hillary, because she was pulling for universal healthcare; but at some point she just stopped being... real. She's become a cardboard cutout. It's sad. And I doubt that anyone could fix the healthcare system, be it Obama or Hillary; it's gonna take some kind of mass revolution for anything to happen.

Or maybe I'll just move to Canada.

*prays that Canada doesn't shut down the cannabis cafes...*

[Adrian II]

Europe may look less racist, but it's only because Europeans have had to deal with much less immigration.Not true. But the rest of your views and comparisons (particularly between Latinos in the U.S. and Muslim immigrants in Europe) are on the mark. :bow:

My country has about 2 million 'Muslim' migrants (i.e. migrants from predominantly Muslims countries, even though they may have any other religion or none at all), which is about 1/8 of the population.

In the U.S. that percentage would amount to 37 million Muslim migrants. As it stands, Islam is marginal in the U.S. with about 0.5% of inhabitants. The U.S. has about 15% 'Hispanics' (i.e. people from Spanish speaking countries, even though they may not even speak Spanish themselves) who immigrated more or less recently. Since most Hispanics have low education and seek manual jobs and such, the comparison with Muslim migrants in Europe is in some ways useful. But the US. has not had a comparably swift and masive influx of low educated migrants with a different religion from that of the host country.

Of course all such comparisons should be qualified, and qualified again, because of the many differences.

There are Europe-wide numbers but I can't be bothered to look them all up right now. Maybe someone else will, so we can look at the whole picture.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Not true. But the rest of your views and comparisons (particularly between Latinos in the U.S. and Muslim immigrants in Europe) are on the mark. :bow:

My country has about 2 million 'Muslim' migrants (i.e. migrants from predominantly Muslims countries, even though they may have any other religion or none at all), which is about 1/8 of the population.

In the U.S. that percentage would amount to 37 million Muslim migrants. As it stands, Islam is marginal in the U.S. with about 0.5% of inhabitants. The U.S. has about 15% 'Hispanics' (i.e. people from Spanish speaking countries, even though they may not even speak Spanish themselves) who immigrated more or less recently. Since most Hispanics have low education and seek manual jobs and such, the comparison with Muslim migrants in Europe is in some ways useful. But the US. has not had a comparably swift and masive influx of low educated migrants with a different religion from that of the host country.

Of course all such comparisons should be qualified, and qualified again, because of the many differences.

There are Europe-wide numbers but I can't be bothered to look them all up right now. Maybe someone else will, so we can look at the whole picture.

You are begging to deal with the xenophobic response to that massive influx (ie: far right group resurgence and some average people's views being more in line with Frag)\

I agree that cheap shot surveys should be more fully understood before they are used as a self-serving bludgeoning devices against certain countries.

As mentioned, the UN's HDI report isn't as damning towards the U.S. as the longevity studies.