Karadzic arrested

[Pannonian]

Bosnian Serb indicted for Srebrenica massacre caught after 12 years on run (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/22/warcrimes.internationalcrime)

Full article in link.


One of the world's most wanted men, the former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic, was arrested last night in Serbia after more than 12 years on the run from charges of genocide and war crimes.

The man indicted for the Srebrenica massacre and the Sarajevo siege, among other war crimes, was arrested by Serbian security officers and taken before a war crimes court in Belgrade, according to a statement from the office of the Serbian president, Boris Tadic.

According to initial reports, Karadzic had been under surveillance for several weeks after a tip-off from an unnamed foreign intelligence agency, and had been picked up in Belgrade. Last night he was undergoing a formal identification process, including DNA testing, and was scheduled to meet investigators overnight.

[Martok]

About time. :2thumbsup:

[CountArach]

This guy can rot in a hell-hole of a prison :2thumbsup:

[seireikhaan]

Oh, he's not going to rot for too long, CA. He'll get the Saddam treatment.

[Fragony]

We will see how history judges him. Showtrial rock on.

[Dâriûsh]

Showtrial rock on. Indeed.




Good on them, though.

[PanzerJaeger]

Oh, he's not going to rot for too long, CA. He'll get the Saddam treatment.

Another YouTube Star in the making!

[Tribesman]

Oh, he's not going to rot for too long, CA. He'll get the Saddam treatment.

Another YouTube Star in the making!
in case you two didn't notice , most civilised countries gave up on capital punishment .

[Husar]

in case you two didn't notice , most civilised countries gave up on capital punishment .

That leaves a question whether a country where someone like him was a military leader is behaving very civilised but if I'm not mistaken Serbia changed since then which is probably why they arrested him so I would deem it possible that they do not have capital punishment anymore.

[Adrian II]

That leaves a question whether a country where someone like him was a military leader is behaving very civilised but if I'm not mistaken Serbia changed since then which is probably why they arrested him so I would deem it possible that they do not have capital punishment anymore.Military leader? Of Serbia?

Have you any idea who Karadzic is? :dozey:

Anyway, the interesting thing here is that he will apparently go on trial in Belgrade, not The Hague. Subsidiarity in action.

[Husar]

Military leader? Of Serbia?

Have you any idea who Karadzic is? :dozey:

It says Bosnian Serb leader in the quote in the OP but I admit I never delved deep into the conflict as, I guess, everyone knows now. :sweatdrop:

[Adrian II]

Radovan Karadžić used to be President of the Republika Srpska, the Serbian political entity within Bosnia. He was Serbian President Slobodan Milošević's big ally in Bosnia. The military commander of Republika Srpska at the time was General Ratko Mladic.

[HoreTore]

It says Bosnian Serb leader in the quote in the OP but I admit I never delved deep into the conflict as, I guess, everyone knows now. :sweatdrop:

He was a political leader in the serbian part of bosnia.

[Brenus]

Good news:
Perhaps this one won’t die in jail…
Finally perhaps real questions and answers will be ask and answer.

I can’t wait his lawyers questioning all the evidences and unfortunately being able to refute them.

Siege of Sarajevo: Well, what difference with the siege of Faludja by the US troops few years ago… And at least some food and medicaments were delivered to the town…

Srebrenica: Where are the bodies?

Concentration camps: Where? Even Kouchner had to admit they never exist as such…

Systematic Rapes Campaign: Even The Hague abandoned this charge long time ago…

Not that he was a good and nice guy. Yes, he was one of the actors of the Ethnic Cleansing.

I hope we will have a nice and clean trial where Justice will prevail and truth will emerge, out of our Media Propaganda figures.

[HoreTore]

Srebrenica: Where are the bodies?

Are you actually serious about this?

[Adrian II]

Srebrenica: Where are the bodies?Many have been recovered over the years, if not all identified. They have been found in mass graves with eyes blindfolded, hands bound, and lethal bullet wounds, some bullets demonstrably of machine gun calibre. The total number of bodies found in mass graves in Kamenica Valley alone tops 4000. There are witnesses to all stages of the deportation and killings of Srebrenica inhabitants. There is no doubt that it was mass murder.

[CountArach]

I think (But I am admittedly not sure) that Brenus was impersonating the defense team of Karadzic.

[Husar]

Radovan Karadžić used to be President of the Republika Srpska, the Serbian political entity within Bosnia. He was Serbian President Slobodan Milošević's big ally in Bosnia. The military commander of Republika Srpska at the time was General Ratko Mladic.
Well, since he is indicted for a massacre, a siege and other war crimes I thought it wasn't too far off to think he was some kind of military leader but in many places the lines between politicians and military leaders are pretty blurred I guess. :shrug:

It's a good thing he was caught anyway though.

[Fragony]

Are you actually serious about this?

Yet to be refuted; http://www.amazon.com/Ratko-Mladic-Tragic-Milo-Yelesiyevich/dp/0970919808/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216685786&sr=8-1

Friend of mine was there in sebrenica, the only thing he regrets is that they didn't get them all. That is all he ever wanted to say about it.

[HoreTore]

Friend of mine was there in sebrenica, the only thing he regrets is that they didn't get them all. That is all he ever wanted to say about it.

That's pure evil.

[Fragony]

That's pure evil.

You know nothing, that's the other thing he alwayssays. He's not an evil guy, quite the contrary. It weren't exactly innocent lambs that got butchered, good riddance.

http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Trail-Political-Gilles-Kepel/dp/0674008774

chapter 7 I believe, 'the faillure to craft jihad in eastern europe'.

[HoreTore]

You know nothing, that's the other thing he alwayssays. He's not an evil guy, quite the contrary.

Yes, of course we're all blinded by the liberal media.


It weren't exactly innocent lambs that got butchered, good riddance.

That's must be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. 8000 civilians got murdered, frags. Forget your raving anti-muslim crusade for a second, and think about that.

[Fragony]

Yes, of course we're all blinded by the liberal media.

Yep.

[CountArach]

That's must be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. 8000 civilians got murdered, frags. Forget your raving anti-muslim crusade for a second, and think about that.
Come on HoreTore, they are clearly less than human.

Seriously though Fragony, you can't possibly blame the 'liberal' media for this?

[Fragony]

Seriously though Fragony, you can't possibly blame the 'liberal' media for this?

Quite. Actually he told me a lot more but I don't want to get him into trouble, it comes down to this: you know nothing. He has seen plenty of atrocities alright, we backed the wrong folks.

[Tribesman]

Quite. Actually he told me a lot more but I don't want to get him into trouble, it comes down to this: you know nothing. He has seen plenty of atrocities alright, we backed the wrong folks.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Whatever next , support for the liquidation of the warsaw ghetto because some of them jews done some nasty stuff:dizzy2:

[Brenus]

“Many have been recovered over the years, if not all identified. They have been found in mass graves with eyes blindfolded, hands bound, and lethal bullet wounds, some bullets demonstrably of machine gun calibre. The total number of bodies found in mass graves in Kamenica Valley alone tops 4000. There are witnesses to all stages of the deportation and killings of Srebrenica inhabitants. There is no doubt that it was mass murder.”

Adrian, I actually disagree: We have some images and witnesses of massacre that happened but no real evidences…
Graves were found but figures don’t add up.

The facts are:
Accepted/Media figures: 7000-8000 men and boys killed
Bodies founded: 2 442.
The fact is the bodies buried in the Srebrenica Memorial Complex are not all killed in July 1995, when the alleged genocide took place, including cases of people who died natural deaths a full 13 years before the event took place. Ok, that according a Serbian Historian, Milivoje Ivanisevic but …

Now from Alexandar Pavic Article:
“In the summer of 2005, on the 10-year anniversary of the event, the "Srebrenica Research Group," composed of mostly American and British media and academic figures, as well as former U.N. civil officials and military observers with ex-Yugoslavia experience, put up a website in which the entire "Srebrenica massacre" account was reconsidered and demystified.
Instead of the 7-8,000 figure, U.N. officials and U.S. Congress experts were quoted giving figures of "700-800," "the low hundreds," "about 2,000 Muslims and Serbs total," etc. Henry Wieland, head of the U.N. Human Rights Commission, who spent days interviewing Srebrenica refugees in July 1995, is quoted as saying that he did not find "anyone who'd seen any atrocity committed with their own eyes."

So, yes, Karadic lawyers will do well with this.
“I have ever heard. 8000 civilians got murdered”
So his lawyers will challenge that. Civilians? Some of their families received Social Benefit as Veteran Benefit.
8000? Where are the bodies?
What about the Military Operations of Oric against the Serbs village? It was not a disarmed safe area but a military base…

I really hope we will be able to follow the trial…

[HoreTore]

Quite. Actually he told me a lot more but I don't want to get him into trouble, it comes down to this: you know nothing. He has seen plenty of atrocities alright, we backed the wrong folks.

Fragony, just because the bosnians did terrible things is NO EXCUSE to massacre them back.

Those involved in serbian massacres should be punished, and those involved in bosnian massacres should be punished. Capiche?

And you can't possibly tell me that someone who rounds up 8000 random civilians and executes all of them is a nice guy. There is no possible justification for such an act whatsoever. It will always be evil. And if your serbian friend supports such things, he is a best a retard.

[Conradus]

I think his friend is one of the Duch soldiers the Netherlands send there.

[Adrian II]

I think his friend is one of the Dutch soldiers the Netherlands send there.And a charming fellow he must be...

Yes, and it reinforces what a friend of mine who was there (and no doubt of higher rank than Fragony's :laugh4:) told me, i.e. that the Dutch troops in Srebrenica were a bunch of ill-prepared amateurs compared to, for instance, the British, French and Danish contingents in Bosnia.

Brenus, your reasoning doesn't stand up to elementary scrutiny by a court of law. The victims were dispersed in groups over a wide area, prior to being killed in more or less remote spots. The fact that not all of them have been exhumed and properly identified does not detract from the intentionality, the systematic nature or the mass scale of this murder. I share your feelings about the ineptitude and lack of balance of the court in The Hague, but that shouldn't tempt us into denying crimes of this magnitude.

[Fragony]

And a charming fellow he must be...

Quite. Certainly not amateurs but the geniusses in the Hague wanted a low-key mission, so no heavy arms that doesn't really do much against tanks. He's lucky to be alive, don't blame the soldiers for the politicians. And the actual numbers are a bit off because a lot of the people captured came from afghanistan, pakistan, didn't you know that? :juggle2:

[Tribesman]

The facts are:
Accepted/Media figures: 7000-8000 men and boys killed
Bodies founded: 2 442.
The fact is the bodies buried in the Srebrenica Memorial Complex are not all killed in July 1995, when the alleged genocide took place, including cases of people who died natural deaths a full 13 years before the event took place. Ok, that according a Serbian Historian, Milivoje Ivanisevic but …


And the fact is the Serbian government after long denying any role in the events says over 7800 were done away with and the Bosnian serb government apologises for the mass murder and puts the figure at 8732

[Brenus]

“Brenus, your reasoning doesn't stand up to elementary scrutiny by a court of law. The victims were dispersed in groups over a wide area, prior to being killed in more or less remote spots. The fact that not all of them have been exhumed and properly identified does not detract from the intentionally, the systematic nature or the mass scale of this murder. I share your feelings about the ineptitude and lack of balance of the court in The Hague, but that shouldn't tempt us into denying crimes of this magnitude.”

Well, I do think his lawyers will do it. I do think that if somebody is accused of a crime, if no bodies are found, it will stand scrutiny.
I was recovering from a mission when it happened, and I was told that the victims were put in buses, the executed.
Now, you are telling me that they were dispersed in groups: Lawyers will go on that.
They will go for the fact that from 20 000 initial victims, we are now from 5000- 4000 (1000 difference !!!), and accounted bodies is around 2000 – 3000.
They will challenge the Genocide.

What make me furious (and do remember I was there during the First Offensive, and for Zepa) is without exaggeration, we could still prosecute Karadic. War crime, mass murder, etc, but in presenting charges which shouldn’t stand, we just give him the opportunity to “escape”.
I am quite sure he will be sentence, but on wrong charges.
Like Milosevic.
When I was negotiating with Kraesnic in Pale, I was amazed by the amount of hate displayed by his translator towards the Muslims, her former neighbours.

No body denies (even the Serbs) the intention. But we speak of justice, and the reasons of why it happened.

We’ve got Karadic, I want Mladic.

[KarlXII]

It weren't exactly innocent lambs that got butchered, good riddance.

http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Trail-Political-Gilles-Kepel/dp/0674008774

chapter 7 I believe, 'the faillure to craft jihad in eastern europe'.


So some of them were Muslims, fewer Jihadists, and this justifies all the killings?

[Fragony]

So some of them were Muslims, fewer Jihadists, and this justifies all the killings?

No it just makes it more fun.

[HoreTore]

So some of them were Muslims, fewer Jihadists, and this justifies all the killings?

In the eyes of the extremists, yes.

[Fragony]

Oh common you couldn't have taken that seriously.

[HoreTore]

Oh common you couldn't have taken that seriously.

Taken what seriously? Your bookiebook? No, I see such books as a way of looking into the minds of the insane, little else...

[Fragony]

Taken what seriously? Your bookiebook? No, I see such books as a way of looking into the minds of the insane, little else...

My bad I thought you were refering to this; No it just makes it more fun.

And you better don't call Gilles Kepel an author of a bookiebook, you might just piss of AdrianII and you know how he can be when his blood is up.

[Don Corleone]

So Fragony, let's see if I can't clear the fog for you a bit...

Okay, let's set aside whether or not Karadzic and Mladic were within their rights doing what they did to the Muslims.

What about what the Serbs in Serbia and Bosnia did to their Croatian neighbors? I mean, granted, the Croatians are mostly Catholic, not Orthodox like the Serbs, but they're certainly not Muslim. Still okay?

[Adrian II]

[..] bookiebook.. HoreTore, check your factiefacts before you postiepost.

I never thought a man could disqualify himself with one word; you've shown us that it can be done.

:coffeenews:

[Don Corleone]

I'm sorry, but can I get a timeout here for a second? Much like the use of the term "BabyMama" in reference to Michelle Obama, which had a lot more connotation than I would have thought, I believe the term "bookiebook" must carry some weight of which I'm unaware. Why is the term "bookiebook" causing a response?

[Don Corleone]

What about what the Serbs in Serbia and Bosnia did to their Croatian neighbors? I mean, granted, the Croatians are mostly Catholic, not Orthodox like the Serbs, but they're certainly not Muslim. Still okay?

And before I leave anybody with the impression that I have a horse in this race, what the Croatians did in 1995 when they reclaimed a lot of the breakaway territories was no better.

[Fragony]

So Fragony, let's see if I can't clear the fog for you a bit...

Okay, let's set aside whether or not Karadzic and Mladic were within their rights doing what they did to the Muslims.

What about what the Serbs in Serbia and Bosnia did to their Croatian neighbors? I mean, granted, the Croatians are mostly Catholic, not Orthodox like the Serbs, but they're certainly not Muslim. Still okay?

Oh common of course it's wrong but it didn't just fall from the sky. Some people think it did though, wonderous, evil serbs suddenly go :daisy:.

[rory_20_uk]

The trial will be to establish degrees of guilt, not ascertain whether he might be innocent. Probable sentence is life imprisonment.

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

HoreTore, check your factiefacts before you postiepost.

I never thought a man could disqualify himself with one word; you've shown us that it can be done.

:coffeenews:

My god, doesn't anyone here watch the Simpsons? :wall:




(oh and yeah, I only checked frags first linkylink, the last one sounds a bit more serious)

oh, and Adrian, you're excused from the simpsons thingy, because of your old age and because I'm not sure if they get the show in the retirement home... :yes:

[Don Corleone]

Oh common of course it's wrong but it didn't just fall from the sky. Some people think it did though, wonderous, evil serbs suddenly go apeshitomg.

Now, that is a horse of a very different color, and much different than what you've been saying up until now. Of course the Serbs have a rationale for what they did. Nobody just wakes up one day and says "I feel like being really evil" today.

But sooner or later, you have to let these things go. Of all the people in the world, I would argue the Japanese have kind of set the bar for healthy forgiveness and closure. They probably still resent being hit with atomic bombs, but for their own good, they let it go, and the eye-for-an-eye cycle was ended.

[Fragony]

Well we are probably talking about a donkey of a different breed because they are still pissed about the crusades. Serbs got theirselves on the receiving end of the great holy codemnation but history will judge them much more mildly.

[HoreTore]

Well we are probably talking about a donkey of a different breed because they are still pissed about the crusades.

Kinda like the serbs are pissed because of some battle 1000 years ago?

[Fragony]

Kinda like the serbs are pissed because of some battle 1000 years ago?

Yes very much like that

[Motep]

Sneaky disguise. It is definitely good that they caught him at long last.

[KukriKhan]

Moderator Note: No further language characterizing the victims of any mass-murder anywhere as: deserved, good-riddance, etc

will be tolerated.
------------------------------------

Thank you for your attention. Kindly carry on.

[LittleGrizzly]

postiepost linkielink bookiebook ? what is this madness and whats its got to do with simpsons ? im not even that old and im confused!!

[HoreTore]

postiepost linkielink bookiebook ? what is this madness and whats its got to do with simpsons ? im not even that old and im confused!!

It's from the episode where bart joins the scouts and has to read a book to pass a test before he gets his scout-knife, and homer is teasing him with "smartiesmart is reading his bookiebook!".

[Fragony]

scuzi bumpage, for the omghowcouldyou-crowd;

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ihralija1.htm

[Tribesman]

Very nice frag , you only have to get as far as the 3rd paragraph before you realise that "historian" is definately talking bollox .
Well done .

[Fragony]

Very nice frag , you only have to get as far as the 3rd paragraph before you realise that "historian" is definately talking bollox .
Well done .

Sure, read something else huh, it's a dirty dirty game. Serbs have been mauled by the red machine, won't be going there for a quite some time. As I said earlier I know people that were there, it will make your ears bleed. We backed the wrong folks and the rest is show.

[HoreTore]

scuzi bumpage, for the omghowcouldyou-crowd;

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ihralija1.htm

So.... It's OK for Serb loonies to massacre innocent Bosnians because there are Bosnian loonies who want to massacre innocent Serbs?

[Tribesman]

As I said earlier I know people that were there,
As you said earlier you know someone who is clearly a scumbag who shares your hatred of people who are of a certain faith . Big deal .

[Sarmatian]

So.... It's OK for Serb loonies to massacre innocent Bosnians because there are Bosnian loonies who want to massacre innocent Serbs?

They didn't want to massacre, they massacred. Subtle, yet important distinction. I think the point is that good guys/bad guys routine can't be applied here. Overall strategy of all sides was ethnic cleansing, by intimidation and forced relocation. Murders and massacres were byproducts of that strategy rather than the main goal. But I don't want to venture off topic to much.

Today it was first appearance of Karadzic at the Hague. He didn't enter a plea, partly because he didn't study have the time to study the indictment properly and partly because the prosecution is already preparing a new, bigger one. I don't know what new information the prosecution have now that they didn't have in the last ten years, but it will be interesting to see.

Also, Karadzic spoke publicly about a deal with Richard Holbrooke under which he was supposed to leave politics and public life in general and not appear in the Hague. Public opinion in Serbia for years was that some kind of a deal with the US existed, mainly because there was no pressure from the tribunal to find him. Every couple of weeks there were statements or visits from the Hague to remind and put pressure that Mladic get's there, but there was no pressure for Karadzic. He was scarcely even mentioned.

This is gonna be interesting to watch. I hope that they continue with live broadcast.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The whole of the Balkans just makes me think of and endless series of MTW:

"Faction Re-emergence"

messages. It's the ultimate in whack-a-mole....

[HoreTore]

They didn't want to massacre, they massacred. Subtle, yet important distinction.

So... It is okay for serb loonies to massacre innocent bosnians because there are bosnian loonies who massacred innocent serbs...?

Hey, here's an idea, why not shoot those who massacre people, instead of shooting innocent people! :2thumbsup:

[Brenus]

"why not shoot those who massacre people, instead of shooting innocent people!" Well, it is what they thought they were doing... That is the problem when you take justice in your own hands and made mistake...

By the way, it was impossible in Bosnia to make a difference between civilian and fighters. Every male had to do 2 weeks on the front and 2 weeks at home... It was a CIVIL war, and not a country (Serbia) invading others countries (bosnia and Croatia)... It was far more complexe...

[HoreTore]

Well, it is what they thought they were doing...

Not even close to acceptable.


By the way, it was impossible in Bosnia to make a difference between civilian and fighters. Every male had to do 2 weeks on the front and 2 weeks at home...

So.... In WW2, it would've been OK for the allies to shoot german children, since they could be enlisted in the Hitlerjugend...?

[Sarmatian]

So... It is okay for serb loonies to massacre innocent bosnians because there are bosnian loonies who massacred innocent serbs...?


Please HoreTore, don't advocate shooting of innocent Bosniaks. :smash:

Vast majority of those killed in Srebrenica were far from innocent. That doesn't make it any less wrong, mind you, they should have been treated as POW's.

One very important aspect of the war, and one of the main reasons for so many "civilian" casualties is that fighting were for the most part done by paramilitary groups or armed forces that evolved from paramilitary groups. JNA (Yugoslav People's Army) was the only legal armed force in Yugoslavia. JNA tried to maintain its distance and only reacted defensively when it was directly attacked. Those paramilitary groups consisted in part of true patriots, but mostly of nationalists and criminals who saw the potential to get rich quickly. This was especially true in Serbia and in Bosnia. So, fighting was often done by groups of people without uniforms, clear chain of command or military structure. So in the end, you could just take a gun from a corpse of a killed combatant and voila, you've got a civilian casualty, so useful for propaganda. It was very difficult to discern soldier from a civilian. A lot of civilian casualties were actually combatants.

You're idea about shooting those responsible instead of civilians is great. But, unfortunately, some of them are dead and some of them are either current or ex presidents, foreign ministers, generals, special envoys of Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, US, NATO, Germany, UK, France etc... and it is very hard to get those people to appear at a court. Actually, it could be done for those from Serbia, Croatian and Bosnia for the most part, but it is nearly impossible to get to others from the list...

[Tribesman]

A lot of civilian casualties were actually combatants.
What was that village outside Srebrenica where 3/4 of the civilian casualties from the place were really soldiers and on top of that 3 times that amount who were claimed to have been casualties in that village were soldiers whose bodies had been transported to the village from other locations ?
What was it again , 48 were killed there , 11 of them were civilians and 168 other soldiers bodies were bought there .
Gets confusing doesn't it .~;)

[HoreTore]

A lot of civilian casualties were actually combatants.

That simply does not matter even a tiny bit. Karadzic is still a butcher. There's is no excuse for his actions, no justification. He is still the same butcher regardless of what else was going on. He knowingly and willingly accepted the killing of innocent people, and that cannot be tolerated under any circumstances.

[Sarmatian]

What was that village outside Srebrenica where 3/4 of the civilian casualties from the place were really soldiers and on top of that 3 times that amount who were claimed to have been casualties in that village were soldiers whose bodies had been transported to the village from other locations ?
What was it again , 48 were killed there , 11 of them were civilians and 168 other soldiers bodies were bought there .
Gets confusing doesn't it .~;)

It does, thanks for furthering my point. :yes:


That simply does not matter even a tiny bit. Karadzic is still a butcher. There's is no excuse for his actions, no justification. He is still the same butcher regardless of what else was going on. He knowingly and willingly accepted the killing of innocent people, and that cannot be tolerated under any circumstances.

If he is a butcher than he doesn't have to be afraid. Hague usually let's butchers go free as we've seen in Oric and Haradinay cases...

I don't care about Karadzic, Mladic and similar scum. My only objection is that they should have been put on trial in Serbia or Republika Srpska...

[Tribesman]

It does, thanks for furthering my point.
Thats OK , and I am glad you didn't object that I used a Serbian example of duplicity as I am sure similar events can be found done by the Croats and Bosnians .

[HoreTore]

I don't care about Karadzic, Mladic and similar scum. My only objection is that they should have been put on trial in Serbia or Republika Srpska...

No. If they had committed crimes against serbs, then yes, it would perhaps have been OK. But they committed their worst crimes against bosnians, and as such they cannot be tried in serbia under any circumstances.

[Fragony]

If he is a butcher than he doesn't have to be afraid. Hague usually let's butchers go free as we've seen in Oric and Haradinay cases...


Oric.... Oric, nope never heard of him. Wonder why. Actually I don't it was completily ignored by our media. A non-innocent muslim, unacceptable.

[Tribesman]

Oric.... Oric, nope never heard of him. Wonder why. Actually I don't it was completily ignored by our media. A non-innocent muslim, unacceptable.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
So it was completely ignored when he was found guilty then , and again completely ignored when he was aquitted because due to the Serbs bombing and shelling the villages too it was not possible to determine what unneccesary destruction was caused by his forces and how much had been caused by the Serbian forces . Did you miss the part where most of the evidence was shown to be entirely fabricated or when the depositions by dead people turned out to be not dead at all ?
So when you say your media completely ignored it do you mean that you just got another of your usual mental blanks when the word Muslim is mentioned .
I wonder how many different Dutch news sources relating to this trial can be found on the first page of a search on that internet thingy:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Poor Frag blinded by his hatred again:thumbsdown:

[Sarmatian]

No. If they had committed crimes against serbs, then yes, it would perhaps have been OK. But they committed their worst crimes against bosnians, and as such they cannot be tried in serbia under any circumstances.

Republika Srpska would be perfectly acceptable. It's in Bosnia and they (Karadzic and Mladic in this case) were political/military leaders of RS. I would personally feel much better if criminals like Oric were convicted in Sarajevo, or Gotovina in Croatia than in Hague. Everyone should clean their own backyard and all that...



Thats OK , and I am glad you didn't object that I used a Serbian example of duplicity as I am sure similar events can be found done by the Croats and Bosnians.

I was never under impression that Serbs were good guys. But I object and will always object when crimes of one or two sides are ignored or marginalized and crimes of other sides are blown out of proportions. Simply Bosnian Muslim played the role of the victim perfectly, but they were no more victims than Bosnian Serbs or Bosnian Croats.

Just a small correction, I don't know if you're aware of it - when you say "Bosnians", it refers to all residents of Bosnia, whether they are Serbian, Muslim or Croatian. If you are talking only about Muslim population of Bosnia, Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslim is more appropriate.

[Fragony]

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
So it was completely ignored when he was found guilty then , and again completely ignored when he was aquitted because due to the Serbs bombing and shelling the villages too it was not possible to determine what unneccesary destruction was caused by his forces and how much had been caused by the Serbian forces . Did you miss the part where most of the evidence was shown to be entirely fabricated or when the depositions by dead people turned out to be not dead at all ?
So when you say your media completely ignored it do you mean that you just got another of your usual mental blanks when the word Muslim is mentioned .
I wonder how many different Dutch news sources relating to this trial can be found on the first page of a search on that internet thingy:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Poor Frag blinded by his hatred again:thumbsdown:

A footnote here and there between advertisements, compared to the attention Karadic and uncle Milo it's safe to say that it is completily ignored. Nope Tribes, you are completily blinded by my 'hatred'. Ask a random dutchie who Karadic is and he will know, have been spammed silly with it after all, ask who Oric is, maybe one out of a few hundreds will have heard of him, and will probably be flabbergasted that it wasn't exactly a one-sided conflict. Uh-huh :yes:

[HoreTore]

Republika Srpska would be perfectly acceptable.

Not your call to make; you're not a victim. Sorry.

[Sarmatian]

Not your call to make; you're not a victim. Sorry.

Not mine, yours or any other person's here but that shouldn't stop us from discussing it. Anyway, do you really think somebody actually asked the victims where they want the criminals prosecuted? Do you really think someone took their opinion and wishes into consideration when they formed the tribunal?

That tribunal wasn't formed to bring criminals to justice and to give satisfaction to the victims but to justify the actions of the great powers.

Anyway, my opinion still stands - all criminals should be prosecuted by courts in their own countries. Only that would prove that all countries involved have indeed come to terms with their own part of the guilt. Some arbitrary body no one cares about either in Bosnia, Serbia or Croatia can't give neither satisfaction to the victims nor the proof that things have indeed changed...

[HoreTore]

Anyway, do you really think somebody actually asked the victims where they want the criminals prosecuted?

In the case of death, their relatives get to make that call.


Some arbitrary body no one cares about either in Bosnia, Serbia or Croatia can't give neither satisfaction to the victims nor the proof that things have indeed changed...

Really? Then why have I seen so many interviews with bosnians who are extremely relieved that Karadzic has been captured and will face justice...?

They do appear to have a rather different view of this than you do, and frankly, they're the ones who matter. And where was that protest rally against the capture of Karadzic, again? Was it in Sarajevo or Belgrade? I forgot, sorry... :dizzy2:

[Sarmatian]

Really? Then why have I seen so many interviews with bosnians who are extremely relieved that Karadzic has been captured and will face justice...?

They do appear to have a rather different view of this than you do, and frankly, they're the ones who matter. And where was that protest rally against the capture of Karadzic, again? Was it in Sarajevo or Belgrade? I forgot, sorry... :dizzy2:

Extremely relieved, you say. Are those the same Bosniaks who were dancing with joy when Oric was released? Who wore t-shirts with his pictures, celebrating him as a war hero? Sorry mate, I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about moving on and coming to terms with these issues. For most of them, this is just another "proof" that they were the good guys and victims, while Serbs were the bad guys and butchers. That's not the kind of justice I'm advocating and I will never be able to agree with it. That's the kind of attitude the Hague reinforces...

Since you like to read interviews so much, try reading some that Bosniak politicians made. You'll see for what they want to use the arrest of Karadzic...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Anyway, my opinion still stands - all criminals should be prosecuted by courts in their own countries. Only that would prove that all countries involved have indeed come to terms with their own part of the guilt. Some arbitrary body no one cares about either in Bosnia, Serbia or Croatia can't give neither satisfaction to the victims nor the proof that things have indeed changed...

I broadly support this view. Judgement by peers is an important plank of justice being seen to be done, and the responsibility of ensuring a fair trial gives a good indication of how far a people has travelled in being able to face up to their past. With some safeguards, it is by far the preferable route.

Nonetheless, the International Court has an important legitimacy to ensure that criminals from countries that haven't - or won't - face up to their responsibilities, are able to be prosecuted. Because of the scrupulous care taken to ensure the appearance of fairness, these proceedings often appear over-long and chaotic, which leads to accusations such as no-one caring. The Court may not be perfect, but it is far preferable to letting the evil get away with their deeds in the knowledge they will never be brought to trial.

For example, at the time he was caught, Milosevic could not have been tried in a Serbian court because the country was still too raw. For Karadzic however, I believe that a trial in his own country would be the correct choice for all concerned. The time is right to move forward.

[Brenus]

“Not even close to acceptable”: Never said it was.

“ In WW2, it would've been OK for the allies to shoot german children, since they could be enlisted in the Hitlerjugend...?”: It is unacceptable to kill prisoners of war. But as far as I know, the “Baby Division”, the 12 SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend was one the most feared unit in Normandy, so the Allies killed the “children”.
Did you ever face one kid with a Kalashnikov? I did. And it is one of the worst things it can happen…

“So it was completely ignored when he was found guilty then , and again completely ignored when he was aquitted because due to the Serbs bombing and shelling the villages too it was not possible to determine what unnecessary destruction was caused by his forces and how much had been caused by the Serbian forces”: Oric killed civilians and the Court decided it couldn’t decide if it was necessary or not… By the way, that shows Srebrenica wasn’t “disarmed”…
His non-guilty verdict is definitely the proof that some war criminals are not giving same treatment…

“Did you miss the part where most of the evidence was shown to be entirely fabricated or when the depositions by dead people turned out to be not dead at all ?” Dead people giving depositions? Zombies?


“Not your call to make; you're not a victim. Sorry.” So, it not up to The Hague either. Sorry.

“Was it in Sarajevo or Belgrade?”: So when the General Gotovina is captured in some remote Spanish territory, Spain is part of the Croatian Ethnic Cleansing? Does it make sense?

“For example, at the time he was caught, Milosevic could not have been tried in a Serbian court because the country was still too raw”. Perhaps. However, I still think Milosevic should have been judge in Serbia.
His political agreement with Tudjman, playing with Serbian lives (and others, but I see it from a Serbian point of view) and allowing the ethnic cleansing from the Serbs from Krajina (in order to re-populate Kosovo), his withdrawal of all the Serbian Officer 3 days before the final Croatian Offensive (followed by NATO bombardment on Serbian Anti Aircraft Position combined with the complete inaction of the Bosnian Serbs Army when the Croatian Army took –in Bosnia- the key for Knin), the pillage and loot of the country by his relatives and friends, would have been enough.
Then to The Hague, for more charges…

Hoops, have to go, to be continued…

[Devastatin Dave]

Oh, he's not going to rot for too long, CA. He'll get the Saddam treatment.

At the Hague? Are you kidding? A lot of Euros will be spent for the rest of this guys life keeping him alive. They should just drop him off in any village in Albania, they'll know what to do with him...

[Brenus]

In Albania? The guy never put a foot in Albania... Croatia, well, he went in hollidays. The Bosniacs woud like to have a word with him, most probably...
Or you mean they will sell his parts/organs?:beam:

[Devastatin Dave]

Or you mean they will sell his parts/organs?:beam:

Bingo...:yes: