View Full Version : Impossible to win
SuperGosc
07-23-2008, 00:55
I started a pontus campaign about 10 times now and everytime i get to 269 bc AS attacks me and they have the best troops they can have ALREADY!! For come reason they also have inifinite money because they never stop sending half/full stacks at me. By this time my army is almost gone because i have taken some cities and you have to attack cities right away or you lose WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY TOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much money. So I would like to know how you are suppose to win with pontus when AS is ****ing me in the A** and I have no army almost and i cant recruit any phalanx or any troops that can beat AS army, seems to me its impossible WITHOUT cheating.
ps - for some reason once AS attacks me (which they do everytime no matter how many times you start over) Eperious and Egypt is at war with me too.
HOW DO YOU FREAKIN WIN !?!?!?!?!?:wall:
1) What difficulty are you playing on?
2) My course of action is this:
-Take Ankyra
-Take Nikaia
-Take Sinope
Wait for a bit, it's not horrible if you lose your capital. Use spies a lot, hold strategic locations. I did have some luck in my Pontos campaign, because I managed to take Ipsos in a last-ditch effort.
whatthehell6
07-23-2008, 01:09
Like Hax asked, what difficulty?
I've played the first 45 years of 2 Pontos campaigns (both ended up with persistent CTD's), both being on H/M. My strategy is generally:
First!! Disband cavalry unit (there is only 1 I believe)
x Take Nikaia
x Take Byzantion
x Take Sinope (if you have the troops for it)
x Disband infantry units, keep some skirmishing units
After that it is just using skirmishers and Generals/FM effectively (Generals are key, as they can mass kill AND rout units quickly and effectively) until you can get an economy rolling. Also, try to get a ceasfire with Seleucids (though they will pretty much always break it). Then Pontos becomes a piece of cake. At least on H/M that is.
I say you take a page from Mithridates VI (the Great) of Pontus and flee to Bosphorus.
SuperGosc
07-23-2008, 01:14
Its on M/M and I took sinope then nikaia. my income was good and I was building a barracks in Amesiea but then AS come through and took it and then sinope and my campiagn is pretty much over there. I got AS to ceasefire a turn before they took Amesiea.
Now if I take those cities in the order you say and then disband my infantry, how do I fight AS once they attack me (which they will) ???
Now if I take those cities in the order you say and then disband my infantry, how do I fight AS once they attack me (which they will) ???
Take a deep breath, then throw yourself into the fight bravely screaming like a Gaesatae, fighting for your own very existence
:horn:
SuperGosc
07-23-2008, 01:20
LOL I wish i could.
LOL I wish i could.
You can.
tapanojum
07-23-2008, 01:25
My first campaign as Pontos on VH/M wasn't as difficult as you describe.
Disband your unit of cavalry.
The AS will attack your capital if anything else. A couple units of Phalanxe and your General is MORE than enough to defend against almost anything they send at you. Do you auto-calc or fight your own battles? If you fight your own battles, set up your Phalanxe in your town in a narrow alley and watch the enemy armies crumble on your spears.
There is NO need to build any baracks in your capital this early in the game. What's the point? Your economy is in shambles, having access to more expensive units is completely useless if you cannot yet afford them! Instead focus on building economy based buildings (Ports,Roads,Market,etc) One of the first things I do is build a road, allows you to move more efficiently through your growing empire.
While your couple units of Phalanxe and General is protecting your capital, have another army moving through and capturing what you can. I ussually take Sinope and Ankyra. Around this time AS tends to betray me, and then I move this army West through Anatolia and take out all the remaining AS settlements. Once you take all the AS settlements to your west, it's much easier defending and your economy will be rolling.
Don't worry about Eperius. You will be at war with them once they attack Byzantium. For this reason, I don't bother capturing Byzantium until my economy and military is up and standing. Instead, wait for Eperius to capturing Byzantium, and then send a diplomat and establish peace and trade with them.
You are sending your diplomats throughout Greece and getting Trade rights correct? Especially important to do this because you will be at war with KH for attacking Sinope, and you need to secure peace/trade with them asap.
SuperGosc
07-23-2008, 01:37
I always fight battles on battles map and I also send my diplomat the greece first and then west to get more trade rights. I will try what you said, thanks.
SuperGosc
07-23-2008, 02:28
I tried what you guys suggested and it seems to not work. I lasted longer but without phalanx i cant stop AS because they somehow have the best troops then can have in 4 turns. AS is just too powerful. How do you win battles with crappy generals calvary and native spearmen and skirmishers? By the time i take the northern cities in asia minor my army is almost gone and i have maybe 2 units of phalanx by the time AS attacks.
If the AI gets infinite amount of money, Would it really be cheating if I use the add_money cheat in console? I really dont see any possible way to beat the pontus campaign without cheating.
Well... keep in mind that the difficulty for Pontos that the EB team rated it is "Nigh-Impossible". So you can't expect it to be easy at all to win....
tapanojum
07-23-2008, 06:31
Sounds like your problem is not with the Campaign Map strategy, but with your Battle strategies. Normally, most players here lose very little troops when fighting rebel towns. If it is too difficult for you to assault a town, I would suggest you besiege a town and just hold the siege until the enemy sallies forward. It's easier to win this way with phalanxe based armies.
Crappy General Cavalry? That cavalry is amazing. Read this excellent thread on how to properly use cavalry, it should help you out.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=103172
"
If the AI gets infinite amount of money, Would it really be cheating if I use the add_money cheat in console? I really dont see any possible way to beat the pontus campaign without cheating."
Yes, this is cheating. The enemy does not get an infinite ammount of money. It is true the EB script gives them a certain fixed ammount of money per turn, but that is in an attempt to balance the fact that you are a human player, and the computer is nothing more than an A.I. You still hold an advantage over the computer. If you constantly win battles against the AI, they will eventually militarily collapse..at least for a period of time.
You should try the campaign again except on M/M so the AS is not so aggressive towards you. Pontus is a really fun faction that does get much easier later on in the game.
Good luck!
tapanojum
07-23-2008, 06:35
Woops, forums are lagging bad or something, double posted. Ignore this.
Khazar_Dahvos
07-23-2008, 09:57
I have played more pontus games than I can remember!!!! I have become an expert on how to use the starting troops to their full effectiveness. first take spy put it in Sinope attack with army closest to sinope. If your spy does not open the gates thats ok. siege it anyway. Next take the other army and send it to Bynthia (sp)or whatever buy one merc on the second turn. Some sort of swordsmen doesnt matter who. Seige the city and remember to only disband the calv unit in the barracks. One good tip is whenever the enemy sally's out to meet you drop seige engines and move your guys back preferably on a hill side. The enemys will now have to cross a huge kill zone where your calv can harass any of their skirmishers and also tire out the enemy. Works for me every time and I can take both citys no later than turn three. move phalanx out of city back to capital and send skirmishers and peasant pandapoli (wicker shields (sp) to sinope. Your capital should by now only be filled with the phalanx units and if he is still alive your king. Send 3 or 4 phalanx units and attack the selucids in Mazaka to start a war with them so that they loose all the alliances with the Hai, Bactria and Pahlava. And remember when you take a city sell all the buildings except traders and ports. It will give you extra cash so you can build gov. It is probably wisest to put the 3 gov in sinope and Bynthia. I played a new campaign for about 50 turns with pontus today and just creamed the selucids. Right now I have started a Galatian game in ankyra where on the first turn I cheat moved casse to ankyra and without cheating money wise or in anyway I carve out a huge empire at the expense of the Ptolies, Selucids, and Pontus for that matter. :laugh4:
With the smaller factions you need to make much use of your FMs. The Pontic and Armenian bodyguards are insanly strong Kinsmen cavalry. Four or five units of them set up in a block (not a thin line) will exterminate a full unit of Hypaspistai or Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, what is by far the strongest the Seleucids can field, with one charge by own losses of two or three men. The same horsemen are able to break a unit Agryiaspides, frontal and uphill if necessary!, - by higher casualties of course.
QuintusSertorius
07-23-2008, 13:17
I tried what you guys suggested and it seems to not work. I lasted longer but without phalanx i cant stop AS because they somehow have the best troops then can have in 4 turns. AS is just too powerful. How do you win battles with crappy generals calvary and native spearmen and skirmishers? By the time i take the northern cities in asia minor my army is almost gone and i have maybe 2 units of phalanx by the time AS attacks.
If you're wasting your time recruiting those crap native spearmen, it's no wonder you're struggling. Levy hoplites (recruitable everywhere with a level 1 regional barracks) are cheaper and better than pantodapoi. Long as their flanks are covered, they'll just about hold a line.
More importantly, in Sinope, Trapezous and Nikaia with a level 3 regional barracks, you can recruit the redoubtable Classical Hoplites, who are more than capable of holding the front of a phalanx so you can outflank it. They're also quite cheap, have very good armour and good morale.
A cheap and extremely effective infantry line is composed of four units of Classical Hoplites in the centre, a unit of Thureophoroi either side of them on their flanks, and a unit of Peltastai on the wings. Put everyone on guard mode, wait til the phalanxes engage, then send your cavalry around the back. Crushing victory time and again.
For added bite, recruit some of those handy eastern slingers to whittle down the enemy skirmishers and light cavalry at range before they engage, and possibly Caucasian archers if they've got a lot of akontistai and other unarmoured targets.
How do you win battles with crappy generals calvary
How dare you?! those generals are by far more than you'll ever need to survive in the early years of your campaign! Just know how to use them and the white death will fall apart to their mighty charge!
Khazar_Dahvos
07-23-2008, 19:11
I agree havok remember the days of the old persian overhand javeline , spear calv. I still used to crack skulls with those guys. EB is just spoiling us with the new kinsmen calv!!!!!:charge:
Yes, forgett the times of the old Pontic hippakontistai-bodyguard. I first encountered the new one playing Makedonia: levy phalanx is just an obstacle for them, not an enemy, attacking them with Hetairoi bodyguards is a certain one-way ticket to Hades, and even anything of Pezhetairoi or above needs a second portion of luck to survive an encounter with these Eastern tanks.
I agree havok remember the days of the old persian overhand javeline , spear calv. I still used to crack skulls with those guys. EB is just spoiling us with the new kinsmen calv!!!!!:charge:
:horn:
Yes, forgett the times of the old Pontic hippakontistai-bodyguard. I first encountered the new one playing Makedonia: levy phalanx is just an obstacle for them, not an enemy, attacking them with Hetairoi bodyguards is a certain one-way ticket to Hades, and even anything of Pezhetairoi or above needs a second portion of luck to survive an encounter with these Eastern tanks.
Pssh. Your pitiful Khûveshâvagân are no match for the might of Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi.
Megas Methuselah
07-23-2008, 22:12
crappy generals calvary
Do you even know how to properly use cavalry? The Pontic Generals' cavalry are amongst the finest mounted troops available in the early game. They are so good, in fact, that there were threads made to argue about how they were overpowered.
Here, Ibrahim wrote this in the gameplay guide section: A Quick Guide to Using Cavalry (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=103172)
Remember, never leave your cavalry in a melee unless you're absolutely positive that you'll win. After a successful charge, always pull your cavalry out, line up, and charge again, and again, and again, etc. Doing this, you should be able to win a hopeless-looking battle with only a few generals.
ibleedgrenchese
07-23-2008, 22:54
Yes, forgett the times of the old Pontic hippakontistai-bodyguard. I first encountered the new one playing Makedonia: levy phalanx is just an obstacle for them, not an enemy, attacking them with Hetairoi bodyguards is a certain one-way ticket to Hades, and even anything of Pezhetairoi or above needs a second portion of luck to survive an encounter with these Eastern tanks.
I wouldn't diss the Hetairoi bodyguards they fellows are my bread and butter in winning battles only if the AI was smart enough to attack from the rear or flank man what a genius idea to bad CA didn't see it that way but they did give us RTW
I'm an infantry commander by blood and even I can't deny Pontos' calvary uses.
QuintusSertorius
07-23-2008, 23:30
Do you even know how to properly use cavalry? The Pontic Generals' cavalry are amongst the finest mounted troops available in the early game. They are so good, in fact, that there were threads made to argue about how they were overpowered.
Here, Ibrahim wrote this in the gameplay guide section: A Quick Guide to Using Cavalry (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=103172)
Remember, never leave your cavalry in a melee unless you're absolutely positive that you'll win. After a successful charge, always pull your cavalry out, line up, and charge again, and again, and again, etc. Doing this, you should be able to win a hopeless-looking battle with only a few generals.
Because this bears repeating. Ibrahim's guide allowed me to turn Curepos (yes, those cheap mercenary Gallic cavalry) into nasty battle-winners. Any lance-armed cavalry, used correctly, is lethal. As long as the infantry you are charging are already engaged to their front, you're charging their rear, and for added bonus they're tired.
As has already been mentioned: Get rid of expensive units as soon as you can (after taking Sinope and Nikaia). In the beginning, you will get along famously with Family Members, Levy phalanxes and ..... slingers. Cheap, deadly units. As long as you stay behind walls, the enemy can't touch you. Pelting them with rocks from behind a defensive wall (phalanx included) can cause a lot of damage. There is no reason whatsoever that you should lose more than the odd battle. If you run short on cash, sell a building that you can spare and rebuild later.
To win as Pontos, you need to do more or less this kind of thing in the early battles
https://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm286/AmonAmarth16/bata.jpg
AS on that battle was using + or - 1800 phalangites(mostly medium ones and the rest natives) and skimishers, what made the difference on that battlefield was some rocks, i used as a cover, and bingo, i slaughtered them to the ground
:bounce:
not hard at all:smash:
tapanojum
07-24-2008, 06:09
Very impressive Havok, although you do have 5 FM's..well had =D
I find it fun to have a max of 2 FM's and roleplay, although that sometimes makes it a bit too hard.
Those FM's kick some serious ass man!
Tellos Athenaios
07-24-2008, 07:13
Pssh. Your pitiful Khûveshâvagân are no match for the might of Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi.
Meh. The kinsmen tend to lose soundly against my Hetairoi anyways. But Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi are more shiny than effective... :shrug:
QuintusSertorius
07-24-2008, 10:22
Meh. The kinsmen tend to lose soundly against my Hetairoi anyways. But Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi are more shiny than effective... :shrug:
I think the Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi are useless. My Epirote bodyguard Molosson Agema butcher them in melee. Course that's partly because the AI never switched to secondary weapons.
Celtic_Punk
07-24-2008, 11:18
holy shit havok!!! that was like my defence of Pella against the Epirot king. but i had WALLS and they were using ladders and only one seige tower...( plus i destroyed their ram which halted any cavalry advance unless they won the walls)
now my question is, can yah give us a rundown on that victory? what happend? lets here some grueling tales of pontic heroism and selucidian cowardice!
Watchman
07-24-2008, 11:52
AI-controlled lancers in general are all but crippled by the stupid algorithms' inability to switch to secondary weapons. You can massacre cataphracts and Hetairoi with axe-skirmisher cav thanks to that, as Baktria players in particular should be well able to attest to. IIRC what custom-battle testing suggested was that you need a match-up of Hetairoi Kataphraktoi vs bodyguard-Grivpanvar level armour for that to cease to matter...
So, yeah, how heavy shock cav performs in a straight horse fight under AI control doesn't really say much.
I wouldn't diss the Hetairoi bodyguards they fellows are my bread and butter in winning battles only if the AI was smart enough to attack from the rear or flank man what a genius idea to bad CA didn't see it that way but they did give us RTW
So why, even Equites Consulares can be a battlewinner - if you know how to use them.
:wink3:
@Celticpunk: There was this rock on one side of the map, i aligned my Pandatapoi phalangites on a side, at the left of it, i aligned my the few phalangites i had on the side of it, putted my general behind 'em, and hided all the others FM, when the loads of AS phalangites skimishers and thureophoroi came, part of it fought the my phalangites, the other part tried to surround my troops, my hidden FM pwn down with their mighty mistic charge the part that was trying to surround, and then destroyed the ones that were fighting my phalanx, basicly was this :beam:
Wow , I remember my own frustration when I first tried a game as pontos 0.8x VH/M . I was furious !
I tried a couple of times , I even tried a blitz campaign with all 3 starting armies grouped together in an attempt to gain me some cash . It failied horribly even after I sacked Babylon .
Then I started over .
And tried to do the unthinkable ; Attack AS and take each of these three tiny armies and try to besiege a city . It actually worked ! I was amazed . And had three cities by the 3rd turn , I think . Oh , if you choose to do that , skip Ankyra for now , they're tough .
You will also need : a) to defend against AS from the south and east by the river outside Mazaka ( assuming you got Mazaka on the 2nd turn ) b) 'to kick AS out of Ipsos and Sardeis as soon as possible ( say, 2-5 turns more after the capture of your first three cities Mazaka , Sinope , Nikaia ).
If you manage to do these things ( I do not say it is easy , only that it is possible , you will get sick of winning heroic victories , there is no other way I'm afraid ) you will have cash , a nest for your empire , crumbles of an army ( until you retrain ) and -the fun part- AS as an enemy ! But thanks to the known diplomacy bug it will have almost no allies , if you have attacked first .
I do remember this campaign fondly for two reasons , the one because of a book that inspired me to it , and the other becasuse it felt as if I "gained a level" ( you know , the good ol' rpg way ) in the RTW game .
After 1.0 was oute and they said it was "Nigh Impossible" I was almost genuinely proud . Heh .
I really have to start over this campaign man ....
Good luck mate .
Satyros
P.S. Q Pontos , I totally forgot about Pontos .... Screw the Horse Archers ....
P.P.S. : I was advised also when I was frustrated such .
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