Weird = crossbowmen beating cavalry and...

[TenkiSoratoti]

In the campaign mode i try to take over a rebel lead province with 2 units of crossbowmen and one spearmen unit.

I attack the province with very high valoured troops, the crossbowmen charge me flat out and i naturally launch my cavs in to their flanks, the crossbowmen turn on my cavs and beat them.
Odd aint it when my cavs were valour 3 aqnd their crossbowmen were valour 2.
Anyone care to explain?

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"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."

[Boondock Saint]

Let me get this straight ... crossbowmen beat cav ... in ... mellee? Thats odd ...

Now, if the x-bows were shooting at your cav then I see it as reasonable.

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Dont blame me for my son stan he saw the damn cartoon and now he's off to join the clan! BLAME CANADA BLAME CANADA!

It seems everythings gone wrong since Canada came along!

.com ref #123321003

Johnny human torch, a bag full of oily rags and a lighter.

[muffinman14]

Well guess my calvary and ur calvary are cowards because the same thing happend to me.

[smoothdragon]

It wouldn't be too surprising if your general had vices that decreased unit morale, i.e. good runner or coward.

[muffinman14]

I also dont get is when they charge you and it says they are attcking but havent released all their ammo and i cant do that so i just dont see hiw its possible.

[Papa Bear!]

ya I've suspected that xbowmen are bugged... for supposedly just being "peasants" with a lethal weapon, their awefully tough in melee. I've had them beat units of light cav, units of spearmen, all kinds of poop...

very strange imo.

[Galestrum]

heh ive had similar x-bow experinces

they are also damn good pinning forces, they just dont die

[Goodridge]

What kind of cav are we talking about? A small unit of light cav probably would get beat by a unit or two of xbows. Light cav isn't supposed to be that strong in melee - they aren't shock troops. Also, what were you pinning them with?

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Kyle Goodridge

[TenkiSoratoti]

I used 2 units of Valour 4 royal knights which should have vanquished the xbows but nooooooooooooo the AI has to cheat because if i had beaten them that would have left the corridor open for me to destroy Russia.

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"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."

[This message has been edited by Tenkisoratoti (edited 10-28-2002).]

[hoof]

Papa bear, where did you get the idea that xbow men in MTW were peasants? Just because the Japanese equipped their "peasants" with xbows in STW doesn't mean that the xbow men in MTW are meant to also be peasants. I do not know, personally, but I suspect they're trained as professional soldiers (like spearmen and regular bowmen). At least that's what the stats seem to say.

Now if they were supposed to be peasants, wouldn't their defence be something like -4? Their armor rating implies a serious amount of effort went into equipping these men, and you don't usually put good quality weapons and armor on mere peasants (unless you're training them to be professional soldiers).

But with regards to crossbowmen vs cav, I cannot judge w/o knowing kind of cavalry. What valor were the cavalry and xbowmen? Valor 2-3 xbowmen are probably the equal of some light cavalry at valor 0 (I'm pulling the stats from memory). Plus they outnumber cav units 3:2 (60 men vs 40), and they're usually put in very wide formation, enabling wrap-around and flank attacks. In my experience xbow men aren't pushovers like regular bowmen.

Ok, I've opened up Total War Assembly's stats page. Lets look at the stats:
xbowmen:
melee -1, defence 2

steppe cavalry (typical of light cav)
melee 2, defence 1

With a mere 1 valor advantage to the xbowmen, they'll hold their own 1:1 vs the steppe cavalry in a stand-up fight. And with a 50% numbers advantage, the xbowmen could beat those cavalry. The cavalry's only hope is that either they kill a bunch in the initial charge, or the xbowmen are distracted (e.g. they're shooting at someone else when the cav slams into them).

Now compare to standard archers:

xbowmen:
melee -1, defence 2
archers:
melee -1, defence -2

There's a difference of *four* in defence between the two! That's about equal the difference between peasants and spearmen (with rank bonuses included)! No wonder xbowmen aren't pushovers like archers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Now whether it's accurate or not I don't know ...

[Galestrum]

archers, x-bows, spearmen, and the militias are "peasant class" soldiers (notice they all have poor morale and are the bottom of the barrel respectively in their unit type)

these guys have rudimentary training that why the guys i list below are better. the aboove would be used as filler, cannon fodder and support/specialist (archers)

there should not even be a peasant unit in this game IMO for both historical and gameplay reasons

the true professional soldiers in this game are you sergeant level warriors (FMAA, FS, and mounted sergeants)and knights (at least for catholics)

[Papa Bear!]

And uh, forgive me for not reading the whole of your post, but your initial question to me was enough hoof.

Because both in game and historically xbowmen were peasants. In game there are references to the dangers of xbowmen as a weapon that allowed peasants to kill noble lords. (on the arbalests parchement it even says that any commoner or peasant or whatever can learn to master an xbow in a few weeks)

and uh, historically, again the pope banned them because they gave peasants too much power. (which is precisely what they did, no noble or professional soldier would be given the role of a missle soldier like that in feudal times, but since the xbow was easy to learn, the recruited armies, (recruited from peasantry), were often equipped as such to make an otherwise poor soldier capable.

there are also references to the french being afraid of the english willingness to use the longbow, (as the longbow users spent a great deal of time practicing with their bows to build up the strength and talent needed for their proper use, but they were still essentially peasants. The French were afraid of having a force of peasantry with this kind of training, and armed with their own personal weapons, thus again they resorted to arming their peasantry missle troops with xbows which they could provide and implement on a short notice, as this prevented the existence of a powerful peasant force as existed in the welsh longbowmen)

so uh, I hope enough of that was clear. tut tut.

[EuroLord]

Hi,

Had the same problem with crossbowmen. Ive had them beat feudal knights and cavalry even when hit in the flanks and rear.

Something not right there I think.

EuroLord

[Didz]

I think the important difference in MTW is not whether Crossbow men are peasants or not but the fact that they are Armoured.

Archers have No Armour(1) and a Defence of -2.

Crossbows have Mail(Armour 3) and a Defence of 2. Which makes them as hard to kill as Janissary Infantry.



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Didz
Fortis balore et armis

[TenkiSoratoti]

Do you wanna not change the subject from the posts original point.

Its as if were having a "who can do the most posts competition"

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"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Maybe...

...maybe they were not X-Bow Men, but were instead X-Men. That would explain alot.

[TenkiSoratoti]

lol blackwatch

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"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."

[Hakonarson]

Quote Originally posted by muffinman14:
I also dont get is when they charge you and it says they are attcking but havent released all their ammo and i cant do that so i just dont see hiw its possible. [/QUOTE]

Missile units can attack hand-to-hand by holding down the "alt" key while moving the cursor over the map - you'll notice than when you put the cursor over an enemy unit the icon changes to a sword instead of a bow so you are telling your unit to forget their bows and get "stuck in".