Italy's action against the gypsies

[Hax]

Yes, yes, it would appear that discrimination hasn't been kicked out of the EU just yet. (Story Link) (http://www.allvoices.com/userevents/730446):


In a throwback to the Second World War, Italy's new Interior Minister, Roberto Maroni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Maroni), has announced an initiative to fingerprint all Roma adults and children living in the country. Using a planned census of the community as cover, the program is scheduled to start some time this fall.

Immediately after Maroni's disclosure of the plan, Italians began voicing their concerns. 'In order to respect children's rights of equality, it would also be necessary to take fingerprints from every Italian child,'' UNICEF Italy president Vincenzo Spadafora (http://www.unicef.it/flex/cm/pages/ServeBLOB.php/L/IT/IDPagina/4637) told Italy's biggest news agency, ANSA (http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-06-26_126228971.html).

Contending that Italy had lost it's memory of the Holocaust, former Jewish community chief Amos Luzzato (http://www.thefutureofscience.org/veniceconference2005/speakers/luzzatto_a.htm) told ANSA that the program was "unacceptable" and a form of "ethnic surveying," explaining to La Repubblica that it criminalizes the gypsy community, and is "a clear and unacceptable sign of racism."

Anyone expecting anything different out of a government led by Silvio Berlusconi ought to have their head examined. Both Berlusconi and his coalition partners aren't exactly known for espousing multiculturalism. As even the most casual observers of Italian politics will tell you, quite the opposite, in fact (http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=1.0.2169463562).

What remains open to question is how a country that is a respected member of the European Union can get away with prosecuting policies like these. With the EU fretting over whether to admit Turkey over it's treatment of the Kurds, how could it tolerate such illiberal behavior from fully integrated member states?

At the very least, the European Union should move to censure member governments who take such actions against their own people. The longer it waits to do so, the more the entire continent will end up sharing responsibility for such crimes against Europe's increasingly diverse and vulnerable citizenry.And a more recent update (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080722/ap_on_re_eu/italy_fingerprinting_gypsies):


ROME -- Italian officials carrying out a survey of the country's Gypsy population will only fingerprint those who don't have a valid ID, the Interior Ministry said Tuesday, apparently dropping plans to fingerprint all Gypsies after critics called it discriminatory.The ministry said the new guidelines were sent to local authorities in Rome, Milan and Naples, where tens of thousands of Gypsies live in hundreds of shabby encampments built on the cities' outskirts.
Officials in the cities had already begun taking information from the inhabitants with varying methods after the government ordered the census as part of a crack down on street crime, which Italians blame mostly on foreigners.
Government officials had said the census would include fingerprinting those living in camps, adults and children alike.
That plan provoked a storm of criticism from center-left opposition as well as from the European Union and human rights groups. Opponents say the campaign is a discriminatory measure that singles out a minority.
More than 700 encampments have been built, mainly around Rome, Milan and Naples, populated almost entirely by Gypsies, also known as Roma.
The conservative government of Premier Silvio Berlusconi maintains the census is needed to establish who is living in the country illegally, and to spur efforts to get Gypsy children to attend school.
The ministry guidelines issued Tuesday say fingerprints will be taken from adults and children above 14 only if they don't have a valid ID.
What do you think?

[TB666]

Well Gypsies are a difficult issue.
Their lifestyle encourages people to crime and very often refuse to adapt to the more "normal" lifestyle of going to school and getting a job.
The standard response should be education but they disencourage it to their children.
But at the same time you have to stop the crimes that they commit and bring them before justice.
So really ?? What do you do ??

[Viking]

Well Gypsies are a difficult issue.
Their lifestyle encourages people to crime and very often refuse to adapt to the more "normal" lifestyle of going to school and getting a job.
The standard response should be education but they disencourage it to their children.
But at the same time you have to stop the crimes that they commit and bring them before justice.
So really ?? What do you do ??

They're an ethnic group; your comment is nothing short of racism. :juggle2:

[TB666]

They're an ethnic group; your comment is nothing short of racism. :juggle2:
~:eek::creep:
Luckily I live in Sweden where gypsies has overall adapted(kids going to school and all that).
But still do cause trouble.
I myself got robbed by a gypsy(same person that I had seen stealing in various stores together with his family).
There was also a story in Malmö with a store that outright banned gypies from entering their store since they were tired of them coming to their store and steal things.
Naturally it went to court where it was deemed to be illegal hence they had to let gypsies back into the store.
Unfortunately they never did a follow-up on it to see if things had improve or not.

Still I haven't seen a good solution tho.
It's either the "let's just kill them all/put them all in jail" or the "let's leave them alone since it's part of their culture and it's non-PC to even suggest doing something".
Would be nice with something in the middle.

[Viking]

~:eek::creep:
Luckily I live in Sweden where gypsies has overall adapted(kids going to school and all that).
But still do cause trouble.
I myself got robbed by a gypsy(same person that I had seen stealing in various stores together with his family).
There was also a story in Malmö with a store that outright banned gypies from entering their store since they were tired of them coming to their store and steal things.
Naturally it went to court where it was deemed to be illegal hence they had to let gypsies back into the store.
Unfortunately they never did a follow-up on it to see if things had improve or not.

Still I haven't seen a good solution tho.
It's either the "let's just kill them all/put them all in jail" or the "let's leave them alone since it's part of their culture and it's non-PC to even suggest doing something".
Would be nice with something in the middle.

Then you better prove that it's got anything to do with genetics, which is what this is all about

[TB666]

Then you better prove that it's got anything to do with genetics, which is what this is all about
It doesn't.
Gypsies aren't born into thiefs and robbers, they are made into one because they want them to stay within the group and preserve their culture.
It's the same with honor killings and female circumsions.
Old cultural relics that has no place in today's society.
I don't really agree with this law but at the same time it might be the proper thing to do.
I guess they count on kids or adults to have or will commit a crime sooner or later and will have the fingerprints to arrest them fast.
And if they remain in the caravans I suppose that's a good guess on what will happen.
But the real solution is to get them away from the caravan to begin with.

I heard some countries(maybe Italy and some others), social service pretty much comes in and takes the children away.
A cruel way but again, maybe it is needed ??
Is it right to destroy these people's culture, a culture they fight so hard to keep if it raises children to be criminals ??

[Watchman]

People generally engage in petty crime to support themselves in the absence of more wholesome sources of income.

And let's face it, in some ways the Gypsies have had it even worse than the Jews for closer to a millenia. And it's only gotten worse in the last few centuries...

Not what might be termed a strong incentive to closely associate with the mainstream society around them is all I'm saying.

[Viking]

It doesn't.
Gypsies aren't born into thiefs and robbers, they are made into one because they want them to stay within the group and preserve their culture.
It's the same with honor killings and female circumsions.
Old cultural relics that has no place in today's society.
I don't really agree with this law but at the same time it might be the proper thing to do.
I guess they count on kids or adults to have or will commit a crime sooner or later and will have the fingerprints to arrest them fast.
And if they remain in the caravans I suppose that's a good guess on what will happen.
But the real solution is to get them away from the caravan to begin with.

I heard some countries(maybe Italy and some others), social service pretty much comes in and takes the children away.
A cruel way but again, maybe it is needed ??
Is it right to destroy these people's culture, a culture they fight so hard to keep if it raises children to be criminals ??

These laws are based on ethnicity and not culture. If they are ethnic Roma, they are assumed to be thieves. Yeah, they should be sent to schools, though of course be taken them away from their parents; but that's another topic.

[Watchman]

You know, the state taking custody of the children of an undesirable ethnic minority and sending them to schools "for their own good" sounds an awful lot like how for example the Australians treated the indigenous populace not all that long time ago... :inquisitive:

Yeah, I do indeed figure the Italian gov't is being a bunch of xenophobe-populist asshats. What gave me away ?

[Viking]

You know, the state taking custody of the children of an undesirable ethnic minority and sending them to schools "for their own good" sounds an awful lot like how for example the Australians treated the indigenous populace not all that long time ago... :inquisitive:

Yeah, I do indeed figure the Italian gov't is being a bunch of xenophobe-populist asshats. What gave me away ?

Ideally, not by force. And this coming from Italy: not at all unexpected. :yes:

[Geoffrey S]

And let's face it, in some ways the Gypsies have had it even worse than the Jews for closer to a millenia. And it's only gotten worse in the last few centuries...
Not necessarily gypsies; most migratory groups have trust issues with their new neighbours. Gypsies just migrate far more often.

[HoreTore]

Well it's better than what we did to them a few decades ago....

(forced neutering, forced conversion in special camps, etc)

[Watchman]

Not necessarily gypsies; most migratory groups have trust issues with their new neighbours. Gypsies just migrate far more often.That's how they got here in the first place after all; and their new neighbours generally didn't make settling down an attractive option most of the time either.

Not that it could have appeared like a very promising career change either much of the time, mind you. Peasant life was hard, insecure and often rather rigidly regimented.

Whereas conversely the sedentary folks were more often than not deeply suspicious of the nomads by default - and this was hardly limited to any given ethnic group either, actually. Are you familiar with the kinds of legislation against "vagrants and vagabonds" quite a few states had going until quite recently ? "Draconian" would be a fairly good description of their general tone...

And yeah, what HoreTore said. :shame:

[Oleander Ardens]

Gypsies are a ethnic group and are living on the fringes of societies. I know a lot of friendly people from all over Europe who dislike or even hate them. What this goverment does is against EU law and will not stand a chance in the EU court. Trust me, I have studied at my the university also the law of the EU.
This means that now they want to take the fingerprints of every italian citizen. From racism and big brother to bigger brother.

P.S: I support their integration for their own sake, give incentives for them to visit the kindergarden and school. Aut school aut no money.

P.P.S: The Lega Nord is famous for all sort of racism. Souther Italians are for them too just scum or "terroni". Still I agree with them when it comes to federalismo.

[BigTex]

You know, the state taking custody of the children of an undesirable ethnic minority and sending them to schools "for their own good" sounds an awful lot like how for example the Australians treated the indigenous populace not all that long time ago... :inquisitive:

Yeah, I do indeed figure the Italian gov't is being a bunch of xenophobe-populist asshats. What gave me away ?

It also sounds incredibly familiar to what we Americans did to the Native Americans back during the start of the 20th century. Here I had hoped that in the west we had moved past this.:shame:

But what am I saying, the world is not a place rulled by hopes, and humanity. We'd better get to tagging all these vagabonds. While were at it we may as well start herding them, we want to know exactly where they are, can't be having these gyp's roamin free on us now can we?

[HoreTore]

I say we place them all in certain locations, camps, for example, so that they can learn how fulfilling real, hard work is. And perhaps release them afterwards, teach them that arbeit macht frei...

[CrossLOPER]

Arbeit macht frei...
German nouns are usually capitalized. :smartass:

[Fragony]

What do you think?

Been to Italy lately? Some stereotypes are just not generalisations.

[Watchman]

Frags old boy, seeing as how you're something of our resident token xenophobe par excellence, I trust you will excuse me for maybe not accepting your assessement at face value...? :beam:

[Kralizec]

I love how the first person to point out that gypsies do commit more crimes that most ethnic groups gets accused of social darwinism :rolleyes:


Well it's better than what we did to them a few decades ago....

(forced neutering, forced conversion in special camps, etc)

Slovakia (or the Czechs, can't remember) has been forcefully sterlizing gypsy women even in the early 90'ties, in fact. And easter Europe in general still doesn't have a particulary good record of treating minorities.

[Fragony]

Frags old boy, seeing as how you're something of our resident token xenophobe par excellence, I trust you will excuse me for maybe not accepting your assessement at face value...? :beam:

That's ok mia muca I have a soft spot for fustvikings anyway

[HoreTore]

Been to Italy lately? Some stereotypes are just not generalisations.

Yes... Kinda like how italians are all criminals....

[Watchman]

That's ok mia muca I have a soft spot for fustvikings anywayWhat the heck is a "fustviking" ?

[Viking]

I love how the first person to point out that gypsies do commit more crimes that most ethnic groups gets accused of social darwinism :rolleyes:


That's not a part of the point now, is it? If you put everyone in the same category because of ethnicity (yeah, that's right, it differs from culture) you've taken on a certain path.

[Fragony]

Yes... Kinda like how italians are all criminals....

So you haven't been to Italy lately, that's what you are saying? Try travelling somewhere for a change to see how it works. Have a good time and don't forget to check your pockets. Oh, these slums you see it the woods, skip them. Is better.

[KrooK]

Gypsies are problem in Poland too.
Begging and minor crimes. Absolutely no respect for law.
Luckily not as big problem like into Italy because police knows how to cope with them but they are annoying many people.

[Watchman]

QED.

[Guildenstern]

The latest bizarre decision by Silvio Berlusconi's government is that all Italian citizens should now be fingerprinted, and that from 2010, all national identity and residence cards will carry fingerprints. There is no urgent reason for such an elaborate programme and fingerprints are out of date as an identification method.

The real reason for the decision is to enable the government to continue taking the fingerprints of Roma or Gypsies who live in camps, both legal and informal, on the outskirts of many Italian cities. In my opinion, this is a policy which bears comparison with the worst days of Benito Mussolini.

The new decision that all Italian citizens will be fingerprinted, which still has to be signed off by parliament, means that under cover of a national programme, the fingerprinting of the residents of the so called "nomad" camps can continue without interruption.

But why fingerprint the Gypsies? The most significant issue in the general election campaign this spring was what was called the "security emergency": the perception by Italians that violent crime was rapidly on the increase, and that it was the fault of foreigners.

Actually, crimes of violence are not increasing, but there has been a large rise in legal and illegal immigration in recent years. As in other parts of Europe this has been accompanied by a strong anti-immigrant groundswell which finds focus whenever a foreigner is accused of some heinous crime. Gypsies are not proportionately more to blame for these crimes than other groups.

But an ancient prejudice against Gypsies (who have lived in Italy since the 14th century) has been fuelled by paranoia about security in general. Not to mention a common confusion between rom (Roma) and rumeni (Romanians) who as EU citizens, have moved into Italy in large numbers since Romania's accession to the union in 2007.

Berlusconi's government seems determined to exploit and amplify the hysteria. Unfortunately I'm sure the government will not desist from seeking to gratify its political constituency with further measures of this kind.

Regards

[Innocentius]

This is hilarious, not outrageous. The little I know of "gypsies" fits in perfectly with the (mostly negative) stereotypes presented in this thread (i.e. they steal, beg and behave generally bad), although I don't think that really calls for a registration of them all... It's fun nonetheless, so I say go for it.

[PanzerJaeger]

Gypsies are nauseating. My father's company has lawyers in certain gypsy-ridden cities that do nothing but evict them for squatting and taking advantage or residency laws. I know some people who work in retail who simply despise them... A single family of gypsies can completely empty a store of all sorts of valuable merchandise in mere minutes.

[CrossLOPER]

A single family of gypsies can completely empty a store of all sorts of valuable merchandise in mere minutes.
Guys, once again I'd like to question your obsession with Doritos. No matter how much you value and hoard them, I can't place them on any list of true valuables.

[Moros]

Sono pazzi questi Romani.

[Oleander Ardens]

If the Roma are so criminally active it should be easy to get their fingerprints in a way compatible with EU law. Just register them when they are caught comitting a crime. This way dear Maroni doesn't have to appear the racist he is.

[Guildenstern]

I think that if some Roma people commit a crime, then they have to be dealt with as criminals. However, if those people are also being penalized for their ethnic background, then that makes us the criminals, for perpetrating hatred.

[Louis VI the Fat]

:beam: Eat that, Silvio:


Silvio Berlusconi's government was today engaged in a vigorous damage limitation exercise after Pope Benedict appeared to lend his immense moral authority to speculation that Italy was in danger of returning to fascism under the tycoon's hardline, rightwing leadership

In his customary midday Sunday address, the pontiff expressed concern at "recent examples of racism" and reminded Catholics it was their duty to steer others in society away from "racism, intolerance and [the] exclusion [of others]".

On any other day, his remarks might have been seen as no more than a restatement of official Catholic doctrine. But they came instead in the midst of a furious dispute over an editorial published by Italy's bestselling Catholic weekly, Famiglia Cristiana.

In an editorial on Friday, condemning recent government moves against immigrants and Roma, the magazine said it was to be hoped fascism was not "resurfacing in our country under another guise". The jibe outraged Berlusconi's supporters, many of whom are themselves pious Catholics.

The leader of his parliamentary group in the upper house, Maurizio Gasparri, announced he would personally sue the priest who is Famiglia Cristiana's editor while the junior minister with responsibility for family affairs, Carlo Giovanardi, said the magazine was "possessed by ideological malice".

In an effort to calm the row, the Vatican's spokesman put out a statement stressing that Famiglia Cristiana was not authorised to speak on behalf of either the Holy See or the Italian bishops' conference - something which, as the magazine's editor noted, it had never anyway claimed to do.

Coming against this background, the pope's comments were interpreted by Berlusconi's critics as a signal that the Vatican was not climbing down or distancing itself from Famiglia Cristiana's interpretation.

[JR-]

Frags old boy, seeing as how you're something of our resident token xenophobe par excellence, I trust you will excuse me for maybe not accepting your assessement at face value...? :beam:

having stayed with relatives in the mountains north of rome a couple of time, even there the locals feared the albanian itinerants. it was considered a dangerous thing to report a crime committed by albanians because all kinds of nasty threats get promised in areas of italy with poor police coverage.

[Tristuskhan]

The leader of his parliamentary group in the upper house, Maurizio Gasparri, announced he would personally sue the priest who is Famiglia Cristiana's editor while the junior minister with responsibility for family affairs, Carlo Giovanardi, said the magazine was "possessed by ideological malice".

Priceless... Thank you Loulou. I missed that one in the news.

No one expects the Panzerpope.