OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

[mini]

don't worry, you're not missing out on anything

[Ituralde]

I don't feel like I have much to say right now, to be honest. Nikitas follows some pretender Basileus and is at war with the rest of the Empire. As are a lot of other players. What use in trading niceties in the Magnaura. :2thumbsup:

At least that's why I don't feel like writing anything right now. Maybe I can think of something to say though, who knows.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Here's your motley crew, Ibn:

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/LOTR/1200/a.jpg
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/LOTR/1200/b.jpg
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/LOTR/1200/c.jpg
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/LOTR/1200/d.jpg
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/LOTR/1200/e.jpg
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/LOTR/1200/f.jpg

Any traits that are cut off in those mugshots are just the usual supply system traits.

I choose Aleksios ek Kerkiras :yes:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Another thing, TC, did you received Theo's Will that I sent you?

Can't make a public entrance(IC reasons) before the will is announced. ~:)

[Ramses II CP]

Mmm, yes, some of us have been banned from the Magnaura as well. Not a lot happening at the moment.

:egypt:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

That would teach you not to rebel I guess. ~;) :clown:

[TheFlax]

Sorry about the all the banning going on, I'm simply trying to maintain what little authority and control I still have. :clown:

[Cecil XIX]

The total lack of activity in the Magnaura is discouraging. Is everyone off playing ETW?

Guilty. :sweatdrop:

EDIT:
Sorry about the all the banning going on, I'm simply trying to maintain what little authority and control I still have. :clown:

Not at all, it would be foolish not to.

[TinCow]

Another thing, TC, did you received Theo's Will that I sent you?

Can't make a public entrance(IC reasons) before the will is announced. ~:)

Ack! Sorry. That will be rectified momentarily. Thanks for the reminder.

[Ituralde]

Sorry about the all the banning going on, I'm simply trying to maintain what little authority and control I still have. :clown:

Yeah no problem. It's the only sensible thing to do. I always liked using my powers meself, when I was in charge. :beam:

[Rowan]

I've been expecting Bart to die for the last 3 sessions... maybe now that he has a mission he'll die next turn...

[TinCow]

Looks like this will be the fastest Senate session ever. No legislation and no one running for Megas except the Basileus. There's nothing to even vote on as of this moment!

[Ibn-Khaldun]

There is one legislation now! ~;)

Just to mention.. I have nothing against w&f and that all my avatars for some weird reason end up hating w&f avatars does not mean that I have something against him!

[miniwally]

Just wondering who's at the magnuara?

[mini]

Looks like this will be the fastest Senate session ever. No legislation and no one running for Megas except the Basileus. There's nothing to even vote on as of this moment!

Well, it's hard to legislate anything when the empire is riddled with wanna-be Basileus' everywhere :p

[woad&fangs]

There is one legislation now! ~;)

Just to mention.. I have nothing against w&f and that all my avatars for some weird reason end up hating w&f avatars does not mean that I have something against him!

Yeah, I noticed that my avatars have been trying to kill yours basically since I joined LOTR:laugh4:

I know you have nothing against me. :medievalcheers:

[Zim]

It's kind of interesting to see how the newer guys tend to default to loyalty to the in-game Basileus, considering before he had a player there was talk of killing him off since it didn't seem a realistic choice. :laugh4:

[GeneralHankerchief]

This latest History update is once again brought to you by TheFlax. :bow: Please let me know if you notice any errors or omissions.

[TinCow]

Magnaura closing will be slightly delayed (30 mins to 1 hour).

[Rowan]

Since no one bothered to apply to the University Bart shamelessly abused his position as Dean.
It could be a mixed blessing though, the last two scholars he appointed didn't last to the next Magnaura session... :skull:

[TinCow]

I know the Library still hasn't been updated. This is due to procrastination on my part. In all honesty, I feel like we should move towards wrapping this game up. Participation is down to 1/3 of what it used to be and I sense a lot of fatigue amongst most of players. It feels like we're still playing just because we think we have to. I would like to open this up to some discussion. First, is there agreement that LotR should move towards and ending. Second, if so, would you all prefer to go out with yet another grand battle (this one could be a 4-way fight!) or would you prefer that it resolve itself more naturally with normal play and an event created by me?

[Rowan]

I would tend to agree with TC, there doesn't seem to be too much going on despite the empire being split in four. And the humongous debt makes it quite hard to actually do any new recruiting or building. I'll say let's wrap it up. Bart will show up with his 4 units of militia.

Edit: re: battle vs. event: both suit me fine.

[mini]

aww i just joined! :D

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I would tend to agree with TC, there doesn't seem to be too much going on despite the empire being split in four. And the humongous debt makes it quite hard to actually do any new recruiting or building. I'll say let's wrap it up. Bart will show up with his 4 units of militia.

Edit: re: battle vs. event: both suit me fine.

Debt is one thing but the Mongols are also coming. I don't see a way how we could fight against them with our debt and all those rebellions. :sweatdrop:

[mini]

Well I'd be very sorry to see this stop since i'm just in and i'm liking it.

On the other hand, of anything of like is to be remade (other faction or so) it could draw a playerbase from this PBM :)

[TheFlax]

Debt is one thing but the Mongols are also coming. I don't see a way how we could fight against them with our debt and all those rebellions. :sweatdrop:

How many turns? (shows how much I play M2TW :clown:)

My take is, that ever since we got really big in game, its been really hard to get everyone involved. Right now, things in the Levant are exciting, but the current movement speed, no one in the West can ever participate and things in the West are more or less stable for now. It could easily be vice-versa. I think the fact people were stuck in one theater of operations, while the Empire was so big, contributed greatly to some players not doing much. For example, KnightandDay has been marching to the Venetian front ever since the game started (more or less.)

As for what we should be doing in this game, I'm really not sure. Personally I was looking forward to fighting desperately for my throne and seeing the Empire crumble, but I understand the reasons for ending it soon. There is a sort of feeling of emptiness right now in the game, the Magnaura echoes that. With the current complicated political situation I doubt we can recruit many players. (I salute those who have joined recently and done their best to understand the whole thing.) In light of all this, I'll have to admit that it probably is a good time to end things. As I'm not a big fan of PvP, I'd rather have event myself.

Edit: Rowan, the Basileus cannot be a scholar. :wink:

[mini]

Well

One tip for the future: maybe we should consider moving avatars by console if they request it once in a while.
If it's about real big distances, let's say you request the move turn one, and have to stay in position for 3 turns, after which the Basileus or whatever moves you from east to west or whatever you requested.

Needless to say this should stay limited and only for times when people want to change scene/front.
NOT for fighting eachother ;)


Anyway, like I said, shame I couldn't play a bigger part in it, and secretly praying for a new one which I can join from the start so I can MATTER the next time ;)

[TinCow]

Anyway, like I said, shame I couldn't play a bigger part in it, and secretly praying for a new one which I can join from the start so I can MATTER the next time ;)

Don't be afraid of trying to organize one. BtSH and WotB are doing very well, and they were both created on the fly by other players. You're free to even copy the current LotR rule system if you want and start fresh. I intentionally designed the rules to be applicable to any feudal kingdom, so they would work with any M2TW faction. If there are enough people interested in a 'reboot' in this style, that's an option as well. You will need someone to take responsibility for running the game though, because I am simply burned out and need a break.

[mini]

Well I don't feel experienced enough for being GM.
And I don't have the time needed for the dedication it deserves.

But I'm certainly participating as a player if someone duplicates this game!!

[Ramses II CP]

I've tried to get my head back into the game, but I just don't have the will to make things happen. LotR was fun at first, but it all kind of fizzled out and despite stirring up a fair amount of conflict I don't get the feeling we have much left to play out.

I was looking forward to the arrival of the Mongols too. It'd be nice to see us get our rears handed to us.

:egypt:

[mini]

The french would be nice aswel, all those barons :)


Or like 3 small PBMS covered by one big?

I don't know if that's possible?
Few players play like LOTR with england
few with france
few with germany

All with the same save game? If that's possible...

Or just one big PBM with a more western faction :)

[Ibn-Khaldun]

How many turns? (shows how much I play M2TW :clown:)



I think 15-20 turns from now. That's 22-30 years in game. :book:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The french would be nice aswel, all those barons :)


Or like 3 small PBMS covered by one big?

I don't know if that's possible?
Few players play like LOTR with england
few with france
few with germany

All with the same save game? If that's possible...

Or just one big PBM with a more western faction :)

It's like 'Kingmaker'. A game I tried to create in totalwarcenter.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=942

Also, Ignoramus tried to do something like that in here too.

[mini]

Oh it's not my idea, I'm glad to admit!!!

I just spit ideas, in the hope ppl jump on them who have a little more time to be a decent GM :)

[ULC]

Aww...I JUST GOT INTO THE FAMILY TREE GUYS! *pouts* I was so hoping for fights over my duaghters, and to see where Ammonathas would go, and to see the bloodbath required by Kouinos to get to the throne.

In all honesty, I too have grown a bit bored, but I seem to more easily adapt to situations then everyone else, for instance I was going to drum up support from the Western half of the Asteri and unaligned to rebel against the Basilues myself, since it was kinda lame of my brother-in-law to go and sign a peace treaty with a rebel :brood:

I think one of the main issues is the "Reward/Risk" factor related to civil ar and pushing for certian things IC. Whether we realize it or not, our OOC feeling do influence our IC actions, and have some power of character and inplay development. There was much to risk, and sometiumes little gained, for many actions. We needed, IMHO, to reward players from the start for going off on their own and pushing limits IC - the event surrounding my character for instance is an excellent example. It's possible rebellions, all of them, should be done as events, with their own rule set depending on the circumstances. For instance, in our very first Civil War, one could say that either side could gain ships free of charge for their armies (due to patriotic support), and move double twice each turn so long as it is to a "civil war target". Also, concrete benefits outside of the Megas would have been helpful, since an enemy Megas makes for a difficult time, and a constantly changing political landscape can make it hard to actually get the energy to rebel in the first place.

I would be willing to GM a game myself, but would like further help with the rules (and will want your awesome event powers TC :mellow:) before beginning, and to find at least 20 people willing to play, and someone who can mod effectively for anything that needs to be corrected ingame.

[mini]

I'm 1/20 active players unless you pick a muslim faction! :p

Nothing to do with racism, i just dont like playing in the sand ;p

[Zim]

I'd been hoping that the Civil War would jump start the game a bit like the cataclysm did for KotR (of course, even then the game only had a few months left in it...). At least we're doing badly enough that the Mongols or an event could actually hurt us.

Slow movement rates and lots of space and mountains between territories made it very hard to go through with Civil Wars. I had to rest Arintheos in a settlement just to get rid of that horrid supply trait and now have no hope of catching anyone (not that I had any hope before, being more than a turn behind. :clown:). Figures first time I get a decent army since Andreas in KotR and I won't get to use it. :laugh4:

Giant battle or event works for me. Perhaps the big battle then an event writeup on what the survivors have to face next...

[TinCow]

Slow movement rates and lots of space and mountains between territories made it very hard to go through with Civil Wars. I had to rest Arintheos in a settlement just to get rid of that horrid supply trait and now have no hope of catching anyone (not that I had any hope before, being more than a turn behind. :clown:).

I think in future games (at least in the RTW/M2TW engine) a major revision of PvP rules is necessary for this reason. We managed to get the extremely complex Private Army system fixed, but what you say right here hits the nail on the head about the current PvP system. It's simply too hard to fight each other. In future games, I think a better system would be simply that when a PvP war is declared, each side is given 1 turn to get their allies organized, and then a battle automatically occurs with all people on both sides showing up with whatever forces they have available.

[Zim]

That would definitely make the position of Megas more sought after. Pop out as many troops for one side as possible, declare war, and watch the other side scramble.

Of course, if enough people disliked it they could join on the defender's side...

[Northnovas]

I've tried to get my head back into the game, but I just don't have the will to make things happen. LotR was fun at first, but it all kind of fizzled out and despite stirring up a fair amount of conflict I don't get the feeling we have much left to play out.

I was looking forward to the arrival of the Mongols too. It'd be nice to see us get our rears handed to us.

:egypt:

You know at the pace of the game I forgot about the Mongols coming! :shocked2:

Though I would have to agree with what has been said. I have been around seriously lurking between LotR and E:TW. The former to see if anything was going to happen but there has not been something to really get into the last while and the latter my game has not arrived and debating a serious cpu upgrade.

The 4 way split threw me off and could not really rally around a side and with the pace I lost the whose who; the greek names were always confusing me; I do prefer a Western Faction for simplicity. We seemed to be defeating ourselves with the financial situation and logistics. Even with the AI issues there really wasn't enough battles to say we were kicking the butt of the AI and need to slow things down or create an event. Like I said I forgot about the Mongols and that would have been a challenge taking on that assault but we didn't even get to that time frame. We stalled ourselves with the logistics of the Byzantine Empire.

I am sure there is a lot of playability of MTW2 to some but it is getting tired to me. I really do like what I see with E:TW even with it's current release issues. I would like to see playing a PBEM in that era eventually.

However, I do like to finish what I have started and would agree to an ending that would be fitting for this game in consensus with what would be the proper format to do so.

[Zim]

I apologize for my part in the Empire's faltering economy. I really never imagined the Civil Wars would last so long and figured a little debt would make things more interesting. In the past game it took the Cataclysm for the AI to make any progress. In this game I thought not being able to recruit troops, while most of our generals were off fighting each other, would add the same urgency.

Then most of those generals did not fight each other (partly because most couldn't reach each other) and the AI really hasn't pressed it's advantages at all. One big backfire. :oops:

I remember a few people mentioning western factions being more familiar and wanting to play them for that reason back when LotR was being designed. Does it really make that much of a difference? A medieval Greek culture doesn't seem all that foreign to me compared to, say, medieval German, and seems much more familiar than an ancient Roman culture, like the game before it. I'm not trying to be critical, that just always confused me. :sweatdrop:

[mini]

Well ,let's say that the english/french court is a lot closer to more ppl do to their reflection in various movies and western romantic stories (going from Arthur to Ivanhoe etc) :)

[Ituralde]

Yeah well we can't deny that it has been going downhill recently. Too bad it happens now where we have finally reached a situation where internal strife is much more important than external strife. It does show the flaw of the Civil War systems quite nicely though. It just takes too long to walk to your enemy. While I would find it bad if all maneuvering would cease to exist, the way it is now really takes the wind out of most sails. While it would be sad to end it now I can't get myself motivated enough to plead for the game to continue.

[mini]

then i shall pray that someone find the time to GM a new one ;P

[Zim]

I'd love for the game to continue but at the moment it does seem as if it's just limping along.

Activity can be self supporting to a large extent as long as there's a decent sized core of players that keep things going in between visits by the ones that drop in a little less frequently. The reverse side of that is things get really slow if those players lose heart or move on to different things, and have trouble picking up again. :sweatdrop:

The release of ETW has probably also had an effect...

Cecil is setting something up. The rules are quite different from LotR and I probably won't be joining, but it looks quite interesting. :yes:


then i shall pray that someone find the time to GM a new one ;P

[mini]

i'm not into secession games, so i'll stick to the other pbms

[Zim]

Cecil's game is a little more like LotR, except every player has complete control of their settlements and armies, but must pay for the latter solely with settlement income (or borrow/gain money using other methods).


i'm not into secession games, so i'll stick to the other pbms

[mini]

oh yeah, V&V i see..

I think i'd give it a go if it goes live. Seems like a new concept, might be exciting.

[KnightnDay]

I think it would certainly make sense for these PvP battles to take place without much time elapsing. The game engine just doesn't allow for large and costly armies to sit idle for extended periods of time without creating economic difficulties. That combined with these tax rate rules sending cities into rebellion (Thessalonike to be among them) has given us a lot to handle. Actually the cash deficit would not be there if the navy was scuttled and the foreign mercs disbanded.

Bring on the Mongols!

[flyd]

I don't know if I'd declare the game over, but I think this civil war needs to be resolved. It's still interesting to find who will come out in the succession dispute. The main problem has been that the sides have been unbalanced and mostly avoiding each other. I think TC should contrive it so that we have a series of (roughly) fair battles. I don't think we should have one big battle, with the current strategic situation abandoned entirely, since we've spent so much time marching around trying to establish it.

The way I'd like to see this that we pick a first round of reasonable matchups, say Erotikas-Sophianos vs. Voutomitis-Isaakios in the west and Andronikos-Tagaris along with their allies in the east. Various Events could be made to contive it IC (e.g. Erotikas-Sophianos' troops will mutiny because they were promised Cosntantinople, so they must turned around). Players could be given double movement points while they close in, although I'd still allow some player-controlled strategic maneuvering once they close in, although if the sides are balanced, I'm sure they'll go at each other. Also, the supply system traits should be ignored in balancing PvP battles. The players should be given final say, as in: "Yes, I would not run away from this battle IC." If they don't, a more balanced battle would need to be set up.

Once the initial round of battles are over, we'll see who'll want to go after whom, and we could give extra movement points to achieve it quickly. The Event would be over once all the players recognize one claimant to the throne.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Surely your system is not influenced at all by the fact that March Madness is approaching. :laugh4:

[Zim]

I'd be up for it. I'd even go for something more like the Battle of Trent where the armies for the battles were selected by the gm. It might provide incentive for the sides with the smaller forces to get into the battles.

If I had it to do over again I wouldn't have hired nearly so many troops to defend Constantinople, knowing it would divert the confrontation there. :sweatdrop:

[flyd]

Surely your system is not influenced at all by the fact that March Madness is approaching. :laugh4:

Yes and no. I was never really into it because I went to a football school. But we are, oddly enough, in the tournament this year, so I might have to catch a few of the games.

[Northnovas]

I think some battle to resolve the Civil War would be a good plan. Then if players want to continue they have the option. I think we are at a stalemate politically and should put the game mechanics aside to resolve the political issue and have our one ruler whomever that may be....

Then bring on the Mongols!

[TinCow]

If there is desire to continue the game after a major Civil War ending battle, that is fine. However, someone will have to volunteer to take over as GM. I really am burned out on this game, and I need a break.

[woad&fangs]

I'm fine with skipping all the marching around and going straight to the battles.

[Cecil XIX]

Darn it all, I was really looking forward to us splintering into three different factions like the Diadochi. Even asked Degeurra to make me a coat of arms inspired by the Seleucid emblem in EB. Ah well.

I think the question of whether or not to end LotR is best decided by majority vote. I'd like to see at least some of this Civil War resolved without events, right now Andronikos's revolt is the only PVP conlfict that's resulted in a PVP battle without being caused by an event.

[Ignoramus]

I think the major problem has been the size of the map. In KotR, all settlements were quite close to each other, and so when the cataclysm happened, it was game on. In LotR, it takes forever to march anywhere with infantry, so the only sensible option for a rebel is to sit pretty.

I'd love the game to continue, but I acknowledge that the game has really petered out. If there's to be a battle or event, Ioannis III definitely wants to be there.

[Rowan]

Darn it all, I was really looking forward to us splintering into three different factions like the Diadochi. Even asked Degeurra to make me a coat of arms inspired by the Seleucid emblem in EB. Ah well.

I think the question of whether or not to end LotR is best decided by majority vote. I'd like to see at least some of this Civil War resolved without events, right now Andronikos's revolt is the only PVP conlfict that's resulted in a PVP battle without being caused by an event.

Well if certain someones hadn't stolen two full armies and marched them around for the past 20 years we'd be ready to have a nice big Kill Andronikos festival by the banks of Orontes. :clown:

[AussieGiant]

I'm still a little fixated on how the previous game managed to generate more conflict and interaction that this one has, especially when there was more freedom in this game to do just that.

Having stood back and seen the history of both editions, there was a lot more politics and activity in the German version.

[ULC]

It may have to do with people being more into their characters. The farther you get from your own culture, the harder it is to immerse yourself into it. Notice the number of people who are from Germany, Hungary, Russia, and Scandinavia (as retinue, or bloodline) - it's a distinct attempt to ground oneself in something one knows and undestands. And everytime I look at Ramses avatar, I keep thinking that Ioannis Erotikos is a Frenchman.

Ever going to get back to me on Sofia/Bucharest?

[AussieGiant]

I think your right YLC. It was hard to get into character and keep track of everyone when their names were hard to remember and pronounce.

And, no, you can't have either province. :beam:

[ULC]

:sick:

[TinCow]

I'm still a little fixated on how the previous game managed to generate more conflict and interaction that this one has, especially when there was more freedom in this game to do just that.

Having stood back and seen the history of both editions, there was a lot more politics and activity in the German version.

I think a lack of Illumination may be part of the problem as well, though perhaps I'm biased. :2thumbsup:

[ULC]

I think a lack of Illumination may be part of the problem as well, though perhaps I'm biased. :2thumbsup:

Hey, I tried! (but failed terribly :shame:)

[AussieGiant]

I think a lack of Illumination may be part of the problem as well, though perhaps I'm biased. :2thumbsup:

Indeed TC!!

However there was still a lot of action going on all over the place. At least what I was aware of...

...of course given the nature of how we play the game you can never really tell what is happening with others.

Still, the level of engagement and motivation level seemed more than this edition. If you check the pace of the Chancellor threads in comparison to the Megas thread here, plus the Magnaura with the Diet...the difference is substantial.

There just seemed a little more richness, bad guy's, good guy's, religious guy's, sinful guy's, plenty of dead guy's, crazy guy's, weird guy's, did we have any gay guy's? French guy's, big guy's, small guy's,


really you had the works. It was like a play or a movie in some ways. The arguements in the Diet were impressive, not to mention the four way Duke fight in the tavern, now that was some heavy :daisy:.

Hell even some of the retinue chaps got their own 5 minutes of fame.

Family feuds where also there...gosh darn it. :balloon2:

-edit-

You know what...the family tree had something to do with it. There was nothing like being distantly related to others or being an actual avatar that was born by the game. I think that needs to be looked at. If we are all royalty then it makes for a more intimate thing.

[ULC]

I agree with AG assertion the family tree has something to do with it, it seems to create more tension then normal. The pace of KotR plus the family tree created a working history that others could defer to when in doubt about their next action, or to reach back and create a more indepth history. To be honest, if we restart LotR, we might just capture that bit.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Personally, I believe the names had a lot to do with it. The things just looked all the same to start out with - mangled and unpronounceable. It's that much harder to get into RP if you don't like the name to start out with.

-edit- getting in obligatory "it's all Greek to me" statement before someone beats me to the punch. :beam:

[Northnovas]

Personally, I believe the names had a lot to do with it. The things just looked all the same to start out with - mangled and unpronounceable. It's that much harder to get into RP if you don't like the name to start out with.

-edit- getting in obligatory "it's all Greek to me" statement before someone beats me to the punch. :beam:

Thank you GH and AG for finding my words! I was not the only one. That was my main issue compared to a Western Faction I had to look to see if I was spelling my name correctly. :wall: I had to also cross reference members to their avatar. In KotR one worded names and you know who the player was in the game. Heinrich, Mandorf, Leopold, Matthias, Henry and of course Arnold.

The RBG was to get more players involved but I think the family tree concept is what brings the intimacy into the avatar to interact and RP. I remember how long I waited in kotR because it was a small house but once the avatar was active I was ready to get involved and let the character develop. I did not have that feel in this game.
Though some of the members could and did a great job creating some drama. :2thumbsup:

[Zim]

Perhaps it's because I came into KotR after its glory days, but I thought LotR was very busy for the first few months, especially behind the scenes. Players who came in on KotR long after its major plot points were established suddenly found themselves being able to affect the game, and Asteri had a very active group of new and semi new players (presumably the Order as well, although I'm not privy to their private forum).

I suffered from some major computer problems and when I had come back things had slowed considerably and many of the oldest players from the earlier games had become less active or left, as well as a couple of the newer guys.

I don't know what really happened in that period, although one very astute player here I talked to recently mentioned that a lot of the early activity rode on the backs of the veteran players. While I think new players could and did contribute greatly to the rp, I see his point. Most of the forward impetus of the early game did come from a fairly small number of players who had been in these games a long time.

In a way we manufactured the problem. We handed out family members, including most importantly the Basileus and Caesar, based on seniority. This was done (or at least I thought so) out of the very sensible idea that the more experienced players were more familiar with this type of game and would be able to push things forward more. It would also be unpleasant to have someone take the Basileus and then be inactive. There may have been some thought of reward for those who were active in prior games as well. I'd also note most of the vets declined family members to start at the bottom, while I greedily snatched up the remaining family member when I was shocked to find him still available. :clown:

We then handed out starting land to veteran players as well, which gave them an edge up starting Houses. In this case the emphasis seemed to be to give players who were active in prior games but had never run things a chance, also a very sensible idea.

I think the result might have been negative, though. Pressure was put on the vets to run things and keep them going, something they'd been at for a year or more in some cases in prior games. New players could be overwhelmed by the rules, and already reluctant to get too deep into the game early one. Without a position that required much interaction it was easy for them to fade into the background and finally into inactivity when there was nothing (not even rebel settlements to take) for them to do. Of course then we have certain Houses (well, one) that forbade their members from talking to people outside the House. ~;)

Veterans may have suffered burnout, or disappointment when they felt they were putting in a lot of work but the newer players were apparently not becoming deeply involved (I think there was more behind the scenes than some realized, at least I saw a lot)

Add in problems with the civil war system (low movement rates and vast distances for the faction we picked) and the apparent difficulty with names like the Greek versions of "John" and "Bartholomew" (~;p) and the game suffered quite a bit for it.

I'm beginning to think we need more than a reboot of LotR. Perhaps we should consider ending LotR with the coronation of the Basileus who wins (And perhaps give some extra movement points to other players who have been marching half the world to fight the Venetians since joining. :clown:).

Then, if TinCow gives his permission, we could look at starting a new game. Take a look at factions and maybe pick something a little more familiar, like Spain or an Italian faction. Debate a bit on whether to start with fewer players and stick with the family tree, and what mod to pick (from the sound of it, any mod like SS which de-anglicizes names might be a problem). Edit the rules a bit (mostly the titles, maybe scrap the special secession rules for the early part of the game, talk about how to better facilitate Civil Wars), and start anew.

Current interest in ETW would help, since it seems starting with a smaller number of players and then growing slowly encourages interaction. Of course, whenever a new CA games comes out a few months later some players start to get nostalgic (or become more aggravated by the new bugs in the current game as opposed to the old bugs they're used to :laugh4:) and start playing the last game more again.

What does everybody think?

[AussieGiant]

Good points Zim :2thumbsup:

Honestly the family tree thing needs to be in the next game and be the sole starting position. As a member of royalty you really must get involved otherwise you simply aren't doing the game justice and more importantly you get a "context" to work inside which is excellent.

Those players that come in using the in game adoption system also have context based on who they are adopted by. This seems to create a lot more motivation and impetus for contribution.

And yes the names seem to be a constant theme...a small issue but one that had a greater impact than anyone realised. I also had to cross reference players to avatars and that was just an immersion killer. Hell I had to double check my own family name for the first month, and I don't know how many times I had to double check Emperor, Diet and Chancellor in Greek...hell I just avoided them now because I didn't want to check :laugh4:

[woad&fangs]

Arintheos Voutoumis may be the most ridiculously hard to spell name in the history of PBMs :skull:

I agree with what most other people are saying. Names were always difficult for me. The hardest part was probably that with all the RBGs I had to remember every avatar's first and last name. I imagine that in KoTR everyone went on a first name basis for the most part.

The other problem was that I believe the civil war mechanic encourages action over words. Unfortunately, the distances in the SS mod prevent much significant action to take place.

So in short...

-easier names
-shorter distances
-possibly axe the RBGs
-place more focus on inter-character conflict instead of on civil war conflict.

A couple more thoughts...

-Where were the dread avatars in this game?
-It appeared to me that the game was geared more towards house vs. house competition. Instead, the main conflict throughout the game appeared to be komneni supports vs komneni haters.

[Zim]

Hmmm, I never really thought much about the names of positions (It did take me a while to get Megas Logothetes down). I did mix up Caesar and Basileus once or twice. I think it was assumed using those names would add to the immersion, but I can see how it confused people as well.

For some more embarrassing admissions I had trouble with surnames in KotR, to the point that I could not pronounce the one of my first character, and don't remember any others except Kastilien (spelled wrong?) and Hummel. The word Diet in the context of the game was also completely foreign to me, although I picked it up quickly enough.

I didn't have much trouble with character names in LotR, but it's quite possible that that's only because medieval German culture is as foreign to me as medieval Greek. :help:

The fact that relatively few of the Greek names could be easily shortened might have added to issues (Theo being an exception and a name I always remembered).

If it looks as if LotR is going to end and I can get permission from TinCow to use his rule-set, I would be open to gming a new game. We'd need some discussion first, especially regarding mod and faction choice. Since familiarity seems to have been a big issue I imagine moving back west would be needed, and/or specifically choosing a mod that keeps the anglicized names from vanilla (where, for instance, "Ioannis" is "John"). England could actually be a very interesting setting for a game, especially as we haven't played that far north before, and ranks and titles would be easy. Or maybe and Italian faction or Spain.

[TheFlax]

Enough with the names please! :clown:

In Vanilla all the names are anglicized, making Ioannis Komnenos, John Komnenos. Most of the odder family names probably also come from SS. So most people would probably have the same trouble with France, Germany or Italy when using SS or a similar mod that changes names.

[Zim]

Woad: Yeah, I just noticed I had my character's name spelled wrong in my user title. :help:

So as a hypothetical let's say we're thinking of starting a new game.

I'd say you've hit on the main issues brought up so far, although bringing rgbs back when we've become bigger might be a good idea. :yes:

We had one or two dread avatars early on, but reactions were so negative (including ostracizing and legislation) people might have been afraid to be dread later on. :laugh4:

There was some House competition early on, but it certainly weakened as time progressed. :sweatdrop:

Does everyone feel comfortable enough with the thought of a new game after this one is worked out to have a separate thread for it?

[Cecil XIX]

Enough with the names please! :clown:

In Vanilla all the names are anglicized, making Ioannis Komnenos, John Komnenos. Most of the odder family names probably also come from SS. So most people would probably have the same trouble with France, Germany or Italy when using SS or a similar mod that changes names.


Am I the only one who didn't have a problem with the Greek? :sweatdrop: Right now I rather prefer Ioannis to John. In any case, I don't think it would be as important to anglicize German or Romance Languages since they're closer to English.

Other than that, I find myself in general agreement with what's been said today. Especially the parts about RBGs. I also think one of the problems is that we put an emphasis on acquiring land, but once you have land there's really not much to do with it. If the Order had ever been successful in acquiring the Holy Land, defeating the Turks, and if it was surrounded by other Roman lands with no chance of expansion or conflict with the AI, most people wouldn't bother to join it. There wouldn't really be anything to do.

[ULC]

I would be open to playing in England I suppose, but I see only one issue that may not be a big one, but we have basically France, Denmark, and Scotland to contsantly fight, and not a lot of room between us at all, limiting growth unless we realy wanted to annihlate enemy factions. However, the sheer number of enemies we might have to face in such a cramped area could keep things nice and tense, making someone's little castle or town that much more important.

Another thing is the mercenaries - I really think we need a better system to handle them, rather then shoving them under the same rug as normal troops and under the powers of the Megas to recruit. I think it might spark others to turn against ther "betters" if say the "Ringleader" had the ability to recruit mercenaries rather then the Chancellor. Of course, one might say thats a bit ahistoric, but I think you can see what I am driving at - the ability to make it easier for others to jump to one side or the other.

Also, the names are easy to remember and the culture is at least familiar to half of the Org, correct?

[Zim]

I think pretty much the only downside to England is that their home provinces are pretty out of the way. Once Scotland is taken care of there isn't much to do in England (barring civil conflicts). We'd need a navy to ship troops until our foothold in Europe was larger (either good in that it would provide more of a challenge or bad in that it means more micromanagement of troop movements, which seemed to bother people in LotR).

It wouldn't bother me but it's something to think about.

In KotR we were pretty centrally located which did have some advantages. If that were a factor some other factions to consider would be the Italian factions, France, and Denmark.

In the end I'm guessing faction choice (as long as it's one the players are comfortable with) will matter less than some of the other things we've hit on so far.

Are there any other issues we should add to the list?

I'm going to start a new thread presently with Woad's list (and add mercenaries to it).

Started a thread specifically to discuss the chance of a possible new game.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=114637

[GeneralHankerchief]

Well, if my opinion counts for anything since I was kind of treading water throughout the entire game, I think that we should just start fresh. Let's send LotR off in style and then, as YLC mentioned, try to capture the magic with the new one.

We know what works and we know what doesn't work from two games. I think that knowledge can be used to achieve maximum fun for the next one. :2thumbsup:

[Ramses II CP]

I've had a couple of thoughts about how to generate in game conflict for the next attempt at this style of PBM. A large part of my boredom and frustration grew out of the fact that the storylines I tried to create for Vissa were all aborted by player inactivity and out of game problems. Over the course of LotR I had, literally, half a dozen coops that I started working on with other people only to have them get dumped. That's hard to recover from on an interest level.

I also want to be clear that I didn't plan for Ero-whatever's story to run quite as it has gone either. I had a much simpler idea, just to jump into the game, grab an army, and declare war on the nearest house so I could start gobbling up territory. I though we needed a very simple kind of spark, someone to rally against, a bad guy. I'm pretty comfortable playing the bad guy. :laugh4:

Then Cecil wanted to team up, and his idea was much grander and involved more players by far, so I figured we'd give that a shot, but it took an incredible amount of time to develop and I didn't have the energy to keep track of what all was going on, so I let things sort of whimper out again.

:egypt:

[Zim]

You should have asked me to participate in one of those coups, I wouldn't drop out on you. :laugh4:

I'm thinking one thing that might help with distances in the next game is is making ship access easier for Civil conflicts and possibly doing away with the two units per ship rule. Ammonathas' march to Italy and Erotikos' trip to Const would have been much quicker if they could have gone by sea...

[Ignoramus]

I think the major reasons that KotR was so immersive and fun were the fixed Houses, family members(as opposed to RBG's), and the fact that the Diet was far, far more important than the Manaura in LotR.

1.) Fixed Houses:

I feel that the greatest reason of KotR's success, was the fixed Duchies of Swabia, Bavaria, Austria, and Franconia. It created a stable environment for conflict, and prevented the game degenerating into one side versus the other. Adding to that, the fact that you were stuck with your House for life meant that you tended to work together as team. I have fond memories of the first 60 years of KotR, before the idea of House armies, when the empire was in a lot of difficulty, and the Houses came together to bring the Empire out of a messy situation in Italy.

2.) Family members:

Roleplaying family members, instead of generals, added the great bonus that most avatars were related to each other, which allowed a much deeper level of storytelling and intrigue. Also, it meant that everyone could become Kaiser, and everyone could get married and produce an heir for them to roleplay after their deaths.

Using family members also makes battles far, far more important. Losing your avatar in battle could mean you would have to wait 40 years for a new character, meaning that you were very careful about when you went into battle.

3.) The Importance of the Imperial Diet.

In KotR, the Imperial Diet was the only way your house could achieve any of its ambitions. This meant that people were usually much more involved, and deals with other houses in order to get legislation passed were the norm. Ceing elected Chancellor allowed you to do pretty much anything you wanted to do, so you could disband a rival's troops, or send him on a mission deep into enemy territory to "get rid of him".

[Ituralde]

A lot of good points have been touched upon here. I agree that somewho LotR couldn't quite reach the potential it had in comparison to KotR and always wondered about the reasons a bit. I haven't said too much about the future of LotR, mainly because come April I will have my hands busy with an internship, so I will probably be out of the loop all Summer anyways.

I think one thing that was important for KotR was the stable background it had that really gave nourishment to conflicts. With Houses falling left and right and becoming empty shells it was difficult to focus on them. Another problem was that there was little conflict between the Houses right at the start. Most were just content to grab whatever was available, the only friction zone might have been Anatolia, but it was nothing compared to the fighting over Italy between Austria and Bavaria.

In my opinion a new game would need some preset Houses. You could set them up with short story piecies, similar to what was done in the Test Game for these rules. You can set animosities and ambitions for Houses, which would make it easier for people to identify themselves with their House and give new players an immediate goal. House Awesome hates the Pope, because it has always done so, House Beautiful follows the Popes every word because they're pious.

In an additional move you could tie these preset Houses to certain provinces, that make up the core of the House. That way you have the chance of these Houses disappearing and becoming unimportant over time or even be eliminated in a Civil War.


Another important thing I think is that we have to turn around the Action vs. Talk ratio. The inactivity in the Magnaura is due to the fact that it has become soo unimportant. Edicts mean very little now and everybody can just do their own thing once they have an army. Edicts need to be important again. The only simple solution that comes to mind, without a major rewrite of powers and rules, is to have Edicts be able to contradict the Charter and Rules. Give Edicts full power. As long as a simple majority is reached you can do anything and it will finally be important again to barter for votes.

With the freedom introduced in LotR came the freedom to ignore the Magnaura and the Megas and it was used too often and did not help in producing a feeling of politics and intrigue.

That's all from me.
Cheers!

Ituralde

[AussieGiant]

The more I think about it the more KotR and the set up should be used.

The family's are set up and houses formed around members of the Royal house. Rather than have preset back grounds let the House Lords set it based on their pre-eminent characters that will influence the generations to come...perhaps.

While there was a lot more freedom in LotR it lead to a vague and undefined path that eventually lost it's way.

Use Romeo and Juliet as an example.

4 Great houses, four families, four structures, the King and Prince set up as in KotR. The balance was excellent. The structures created the frictions, the political system and legislation systems worked and caused huge issues. They were also a main source of discussion.

Again, KotR seems to have been just quietly a better set up overall. The limitations we thought we had, which were changed in LotR became disadvantages, not advantages in the end.

[Ignoramus]

I agree with both Ituralde and AG on this point. Civil wars should only happen in extreme cases. Although I was the main pusher of civil wars, it seems that it's basically rendered all the rules useless. If you declare civil war, all those rules are suspended and brute force wins the day. That kills most of the politics.

I definitely propose we model the next game largely on KotR.

[Ituralde]

I have to disagree on the Civil War thing. The situation we have right now in LotR is in my eyes quite good as far as the conflicts go. If we had this much tension and opposition at the start when Aleksios was Basileus it would have helped the game a great deal I think.

[Prince Cobra]

It's great fun to see history repeating itself. I would say this Civil War is one of the most interesting things in this story and I feel only sorry the LotR will end soon. I hoped to see a proper solution and the appeasing of the Empire (or new Manzikert as an alternative :no:)... but anyway... Great work! :bow:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

A lot of support for Ioannis Tagaris. In MP with all those generals .. well.. the other side just don't have a chance!
In Tabletop battle however this means nothing!:laugh4:

[Rowan]

A lot of support for Ioannis Tagaris. In MP with all those generals .. well.. the other side just don't have a chance!
In Tabletop battle however this means nothing!:laugh4:

Well, if we have multiple generals on the tabletop then it would make sense that the units closest to each general wouldn't be subject to the orders test. Orders from the overall commander to the division commanders however...

[TinCow]

The finer points of the Battle of the Iron Bridge are being ironed out (HA!) and it will begin once they are completed.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Right, I have a (relatively) easy tomorrow so I'll try to get it started then. :yes:

[GeneralHankerchief]

As a note, I will be in the process of posting all the necessary information for the Battle of the Iron Bridge in the next few hours. I'll make a post here once I'm done. :yes:

[Zim]

If anyone knows the Iron Bridge it would be Matthias.

[woad&fangs]

I actually got the reference. I feel special :grin:

[mini]

hehe, can't wait for it to begin

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, as you can see, I still have a bit of work to do. If anybody can help me out with the Word Document I would greatly appreciate it and we can get the battle started faster. Basically, if you decide to do so, use whatever image-editing tool you possess to individually select the area around each regiment and copy-paste it onto MS Word to make it easy for the participants to manipulate on their map.

You may do as little or as much as you wish, and I'll let you know my email address so you can send your work directly to me instead of having to put it through the .Org uploader.

Many thanks if you do decide to help, and let me know if you spot any errors (particularly with what army belongs to who) or are confused by anything. :2thumbsup:

Never mind, just realized how much regiment manipulation I need to do.

-edit- Battle map slightly updated.

[Ignoramus]

Is it just me, or do the Ioannian Komnenoi have a slight advantage in numbers in the war?

[TheFlax]

Like three times the troops of anyone else?

I think I'm the worst off, but if I am to fall here, I'll make sure the campaign is over for Andronikos. :wink:


Is it just me, or do the Ioannian Komnenoi have a slight advantage in numbers in the war?

[Ignoramus]

Manpower Tally:

Ioannis Komnenos III: 7592

Ioannis Tagaris: 3459

Andronikos Komnenos: 2723

Kousinos Sophianos: 2426

[TheFlax]

This does not factor in troop quality. :skull:

[Zim]

Is that counting Helarionas' troops? Seeing as they can't help Tagaris in this battle and all...

Although if he wins perhaps he can make it to Helarionas and regroup.

[mini]

So the game is really over after this battle, right?

[Zim]

Probably one or two more battles, there are still a lot of big armies running around.

[mini]

mkej :)

This means the new game is still far off.. Darn ^^

[Zim]

Well, it would likely take a little while to be ready to start regardless.

I have been working on a proposed full ruleset. Even if everybody likes it there will be things to iron out, though...

[mini]

True :)
From what I can read, it's going to be a pretty interesting game :)

[TinCow]

I anticipate 2 more battles after the Iron Bridge. I also agree that Ioannis Komnenos III is going to be very difficult to beat, especially if everyone else fights it out before confronting him.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The second post of the Iron Bridge thread has been updated. The battle is officially on and the deadline for Turn 0 orders are in 30 hours.

Best of luck, everybody. :2thumbsup:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Lol..
GH, I'm not happy how you called my loyal peasant army! :laugh4:

Division II: Worthless stinking cannon fodder peasants
They are all very clean, bath every day and cannons are not even brought to Europe yet!! :laugh4::laugh4:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Well, let's put it this way...

These armies are a step or two back from the forces I worked with in Trent. :laugh4:

[Zim]

I don't know, qualitywise Andronikos' group doesn't look that bad, especially when we consider that it was collected in game and not just assigned based on the number and influence of the generals involved in the battle.

Tagaris' was pretty impressive as well before that loss to the Turks. :yes:


Well, let's put it this way...

These armies are a step or two back from the forces I worked with in Trent. :laugh4:

[Zim]

Hey everybody,
I just found out that excepting any sudden problems arising, Mrs. Zim and I will be moving from the single room we rent (in a large house with a number of people) to our very own apartment.

The move will take place mid-late next week. It will take a while to get internet access up (pretty much all our money is going into the deposit) but we'll only be a block away from my father, who I run with most days. I won't be on quite as often for a little while but I will be able to get online from time to time at his place or one of the cafes across the street.

This should not affect my ability to participate in polls or threads related to the new game, nor even to give orders or participate in battles for the current event in LotR.

[Cecil XIX]

Just to be safe, we all better turn around and attack Ioannis Komnenus' bunch. :clown:

[flyd]

Have at it, we're not keen to chase you halfway around the world. :beam:

Congrats on the new place, Zim.

[TinCow]

Hey everybody,
I just found out that excepting any sudden problems arising, Mrs. Zim and I will be moving from the single room we rent (in a large house with a number of people) to our very own apartment.

The move will take place mid-late next week. It will take a while to get internet access up (pretty much all our money is going into the deposit) but we'll only be a block away from my father, who I run with most days. I won't be on quite as often for a little while but I will be able to get online from time to time at his place or one of the cafes across the street.

This should not affect my ability to participate in polls or threads related to the new game, nor even to give orders or participate in battles for the current event in LotR.

As a precaution, you can designate another player to give campaign map movement orders for you. That way if you're unable to get online for any reason, you can at least keep up with your allies.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Turn 0 deadline passed.

[woad&fangs]

I am having massive computer issues right now. I'm not sure how able I will be to participate in the battle. Hopefully I can work everything out tonight though.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Best of luck, woad. :yes:

As a personal request, can people please not half the size of their battle maps when sending it to me? I can barely read the exact placement of the units. If you use Photobucket, you can go to options and make the "resize picture" setting to 1MB, which should do the trick.

Thanks in advance. :bow:

[TinCow]

What does the red line around the peasants at the bridge mean?

[TheFlax]

That would be the defenses I've placed at the bridge.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Yes. None of the defenses are on the bridge itself.

[TinCow]

Hah, I'd love to hear the speech that was given to the peasants in front of the defenses.

"Yes, uh... you'll be perfectly safe there. Don't worry."

[woad&fangs]

I'm using the family computer right now. My normal computer appears to have a virus. I can't access the internet or AVG. Spybot is uneffected but it is unable to find the infection or to update.

[GeneralHankerchief]

With 15 minutes to go, I still haven't heard anything from woad&fangs. As his current inactivity is not his fault, I'm going to give him a three-hour extension.

If the extension passes and there are still no orders, I'm going to assume that all of his units hold position for this turn. In addition, we might have to work something out for future turns, for the sake of the rest of the players.

[TinCow]

As w&f's situation is due to problems beyond his control, Ituralde may submit orders for w&f's units until w&f gets back.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I just got a PM from woad, so I will be resolving things shortly.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, we have some combat that needs to be resolved. Depending on mine and TC's schedules, this will be done tomorrow afternoon at latest.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Blah, sorry guys. Everything's been resolved but my wireless connection has suddenly gone kaput and the computer lab I'm in right now closes in 15 minutes - not enough time to send everything in. I'll post the Turn 1 feedback tomorrow as early as I can.

[Ignoramus]

Any KotR/LotR vets out there interested in roleplaying Bishops in the House of Lords for Magna Carta? An excellent chance to roleplay without having to worry about much responsibilty.

[mini]

start singup up already, you inactive spaghetti-o's

[GeneralHankerchief]

The correct map for Turn 1 is now up.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Resolving Turn 2 now.

[Rowan]

My new coffee mug (http://www.zazzle.co.uk/hates_the_dice_hates_them_forever_mug-168834933289266618) (edit: Think Gollum from Lord of the Rings movies)

[mini]

gah! my men just wont hurry to the bloody battle! YAAAAR MOVE YOU PEASANTSSSS

[Ibn-Khaldun]

gah! my men just wont hurry to the bloody battle! YAAAAR MOVE YOU PEASANTSSSS

Perhaps they know what will happen to them?? :beam:

[mini]

I asked generalhankerchief if I could crack the wip on them :p

[TinCow]

My new coffee mug (http://www.zazzle.co.uk/hates_the_dice_hates_them_forever_mug-168834933289266618) (edit: Think Gollum from Lord of the Rings movies)

Nice! :2thumbsup:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I must admit that I revel in seeing others in the same pain that I once suffered. It's almost intoxicating. :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Thank you all,

LotR was exiting game and I am happy that I managed to play it with all of you. I found a new dimension when I joined LotR that I never knew before - Throne Room with it's grand pbm games and hotseats. Most of all I found it's quite interesting to roleplay a character and interact with other players. I am sad that LotR ends for me with Aleksios' charge but at least none of my characters have never ran from a fight and they have always tried to do the right thing before their end. I lost my first avatar in a battle against rebels where he was cut down by superior numbers. I lost Theo who was quite a character, from a drunkard to the position of Marshall in the Order, again only because of superior numbers that Andronikos had. It was a nice battle and I thank GH, Zim and w&f for it. And now Aleksios. Anyway, I want to thank all of you again for a nice game and best of luck with the new one. I'm not sure I join it but who knows.. everything is possible.

:bow:

[TinCow]

You've been a great player Ibn, don't be a stranger in the Throne Room!

[GeneralHankerchief]

All posts have been updated with feedback, orders, and umpire resolution. Well done to both sides, this was a particularly interesting one to observe. :yes: In the end, the Komnenians opted for the quick-but-bloody option of just going all-out for the Iron Bridge in a hope that they'd be able to win before the reinforcements went up, and it served them well. Tough luck about Bart and Iosef not even being able to make the battle, though. The die was particularly evil this time around.

If I'm not mistaken, I think both sides are currently in the process of writing a resolution, so we may need confirmation before we move on from here.

[Rowan]

We need a new levels of losing category for PBM: Never bring a Great Cross to a table top battle.

That said, I'm not very happy about not being able to even enter the battlefield and would like to keep playing, if that's possible (haven't re-read the Event rules yet).

[mini]

i'll await the negotations.

If I don't like it, I'm retiring my char into a monastery. :p

[Ituralde]

Yay, we won! Our Militia will crush all that stands bevor us! :inquisitive:

Gah! Looks like I need a compass next time. I meant the foot archers...

Great job on umpiring the battle GH! It was very well done!

[TinCow]

We need a new levels of losing category for PBM: Never bring a Great Cross to a table top battle.

That said, I'm not very happy about not being able to even enter the battlefield and would like to keep playing, if that's possible (haven't re-read the Event rules yet).

The game continues as before. The surviving Tagarians can regroup and fight again if they wish. At the same time, all Tagarians other than Ioannis now have the following option before them, as they lost:


(E) Surviving generals on the losing side can choose to switch sides after the battle is completed, taking their surviving units with them. Those who have survived by withdrawing from the field can keep their loyalty and attempt to escape in the next movement phase. Those who have survived by being captured must change their loyalty or be executed or imprisoned, both of which will permanently remove that avatar from further participation in the Event. If a Basileus is captured, he may choose to change his loyalty to the Basileus whose army who defeated him. If this happens, the defeated Basileus permanently becomes a normal general and is no longer considered a claimant to throne for the purposes of this Event.

[mini]

As I withdrew, I can do what I want? :)
Since the game is ending anyway, I should meet the end while fighting :p

[Rowan]

Very good. The Order fights on!

[mini]

Death to the false Basilei! Long live Ioannis Tagaris!

[TinCow]

FYI, I will implement the results of the battle this evening when I get home. I will then send out an announcement about the next round of movement orders.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The Tagarians may or may not be seeking a settlement with Andronikos, but the one thing that is certain is that the War of Four Basileis will continue, with Constantinos Ksanthopoulos and, of course, the more-and-more imposing Ioannis Tagaris III yet to be dealt with.

I think you meant Komnenos! ~;)

[mini]

That, or TC spawned us some new stacks :P

[GeneralHankerchief]

Whoops, my mistake. :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

That, or TC spawned us some new stacks :P

I wouldn't mind that! :laugh4:


Whoops, my mistake. :laugh4:

~:doh:

[woad&fangs]

Due to my old computer being kaput I got my graduation present a bit early. My shiny new macbook pro arrived today so I should be able to contribute normally from now on. :grin:

[Zim]

Hey everyone. My Internet connection will be spotty for a little while. Iggy can move Arintheos and his men as needed. I will definitely work as hard as possible to participate in any pvp battles that come up for me.

I'm going to work on finding subs for my hotseat games as well. Things should be back to normal within a couple weeks.

[GeneralHankerchief]

You'll excuse me while I sit in the corner and cry for a minute. ~:shock:

In the meantime, if anybody currently engaged in combat decides to either fight a multiplayer battle or will agree to fight an Abbreviated Tabletop battle instead of just standard Tabletop, please let me know in the thread. Your sacrifice would be beyond appreciated. :bow:

-edit- or even a diplomatic resolution. Anything, really.

[woad&fangs]

Multiplayer isn't an option for me but I am willing to fight an abreviated tabletop if that is desired.

I'm trying to diplomatically resolve the Tagarian/Komnenian conflict but I haven't been hearing anything from Rowan who controls their main army. I'm hoping that Antioch can be turned into only a Komneni/Sophianos battle.:skull:

[flyd]

Well, Ramses and I have a simple 1v1, and I'd be willing to do MP.

[ULC]

Not to be too cruel, but a tabletop battle for me.

Sorry GH, to much riding on this...

[Ramses II CP]

Yeah FD, I'd be fine with a MP battle. The one time I tried to do MTWII MP for a hotseat before it was an utter failure, however, so I hope we have better luck. :laugh4:

Later tonight I'll futz around with it and see if there's anything obviously wrong. Otherwise we just need to set a time. I'm east coast, but don't really have a strict schedule as far as that goes.

Good luck! I haven't looked at your stack but I've got a strong feeling you have a substantial numbers advantage.

:egypt:

[Cecil XIX]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/9/9e/HA_HA_HA%2C_OH_WOW.jpg

I wish I could help you GH, but this might be my only chance at a PvP victory in two PBEMs. I can't settle for anything less. :sweatdrop: I'd help you out if it I didn't have a confilct of interest in every single battle.

EDIT: This is turning out exactly the way a PVP campaign should go. If there's anything else I can do to ease the burden, now or in the future, just let me know.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Yeah FD, I'd be fine with a MP battle. The one time I tried to do MTWII MP for a hotseat before it was an utter failure, however, so I hope we have better luck. :laugh4:

Later tonight I'll futz around with it and see if there's anything obviously wrong. Otherwise we just need to set a time. I'm east coast, but don't really have a strict schedule as far as that goes.

Good luck! I haven't looked at your stack but I've got a strong feeling you have a substantial numbers advantage.

:egypt:

Okay, well, one out of three ain't bad. :bow:

In the meantime, I'll PM you guys with a few specifics you need to adhere to.

[Rowan]

Multiplayer isn't an option for me but I am willing to fight an abreviated tabletop if that is desired.

I'm trying to diplomatically resolve the Tagarian/Komnenian conflict but I haven't been hearing anything from Rowan who controls their main army. I'm hoping that Antioch can be turned into only a Komneni/Sophianos battle.:skull:

Sorry I didn't get back to you, but surrender never really was an option for Bart. If TheFlax wants to abdicate that's his choice but Bart will defend his capital :2thumbsup:

[woad&fangs]

I expect nothing less from the Order.

Prepare thy sword! :knight:

[Zim]

Oooh, battles...

I also have to request a tabletop battle, unfortunately. I will find a way to get on a comp often enough to submit orders for the battle.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I expect nothing less from the Order.

Which Order? :smartass2:

Working on setup now. We have one MP battle and two full Tabletops.

[Zim]

Which Order? :smartass2:

Working on setup now. We have one MP battle and two full Tabletops.

No hurry, lots of stuff to work out. :clown:

[woad&fangs]

Which Order? :smartass2:


The one who's patron saint is not the saint of lost and desperate causes. Looking at what I'm up against, I think St. Jude was was the perfect choice for my order:laugh4:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Please let me know if you have any mechanical questions regarding the Battle of the Basileis. I'm currently at work on the Word document, and then we'll be off. :charge:

[TinCow]

Just a note that I will be out of town Friday through Sunday, and will thus be unable to do any combat result testing during that time. I don't anticipate any other absenses that would impact assisting with these battles.

[Zim]

Is the battle of Antioch our very first three way battle? I don't remember any in KotR but I wasn't around for WOTS...

[TinCow]

Yep, it's a first.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Gentlemen, the second post in the Battle thread has been updated. The deadline for Turn 0 orders is Sunday at noon US Eastern Time. :smoking:

[Zim]

A mighty battle has ended.

[Ignoramus]

:charge::charge::charge: For Flemish cloth!!! :charge::charge::charge:

[Zim]

For Flemish Cloth! :charge:

[TinCow]

I am back now and will be able to help resolve combat from now on.

[mini]

For Flemish Cloth! :charge:


Though the expression is unfamiliar to me and it probably means somethign vastly different... I'm from Flanders and can send you some cloth for a price ;p

[GeneralHankerchief]

Though the expression is unfamiliar to me and it probably means somethign vastly different... I'm from Flanders and can send you some cloth for a price ;p

In this case, the expression came from KotR when Ignoramus and Zim were part of a rebellion trying to split off Flanders from the rest of the Empire. I must admit, I laughed when I saw it again. :laugh4:

[TinCow]

Just a quick notice. The orders are in and ready to be simulated in combat. However, I'm a bit busy this evening. I will be running the simulations for this round tomorrow evening. Apologies for the delay.

[Rowan]

No problem :2thumbsup:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Sorry guys, been out all day and now I don't have enough energy to do anything aside from dropping. I'll work on this tomorrow.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The Turn 2 writeup will be up in a few minutes. However, my internet, especially images, have been spotty all day and as a result I probably won't have the map done by then. I'll let you guys know when I finally do upload it.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Turn 2 has been updated with the map. :yes:

[TinCow]

Yikes!

[GeneralHankerchief]

As a heads-up, there's only one simulation left to do for this round - however, I have two finals tomorrow, so the next turn report may not be finished until tomorrow afternoon my time. Thank you for your patience. :bow:

[Cecil XIX]

No problem. Hey GH, do you mind waiting a bit after you post the public update for the last turn before adding the empire's notes, etc.? I think it would help the tension involved in reading it if you didn't immediately know it was the last turn.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Sure thing.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'll be sending the feedback PMs in a few hours. In short, exams suck. :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

However, Andronikos is not out of tricks yet. Perhaps sensing what was about to take place in the west, or perhaps just wishing for extra firepower in the northwest, the general recalled his foot archers, sending them to march to his location. Meanwhile, he tasked his already-present horse archers to fire at the unprotected Kousinos Sophianos, sending the general scurrying for cover. Quickly realizing the threat to his life, Kousnios ordered his foot archers to counterfire the horse archers and they were quickly annihilated, although not before an arrow made minor contact with him.

All the while, Andronikos, desperately trying to force the issue, was circling around Kousinos's spearmen, trying to kill the rival Basileus in hand-to-hand combat. While easily outmaneuvering the spearmen tasked with blocking this move, Andronikos found Kousnios sheltered with the remaining two regiments, a lone horseman hidden among hundreds of spears. Deciding to take a risk, he charged, hoping that his men would have enough weight to crash through and hit Kousinos. However, the wily general simply moved farther back. Andronikos, sensing the charge was now pointless, broke it off, but not before losing a lot of his escort.

This looks familiar!!!! It's like Theo's battle against Andronikos. Only that Theo did not ran away like a headless chicken but fought until he died! :clown:

[Cecil XIX]

This looks familiar!!!! It's like Theo's battle against Andronikos. Only that Theo did not ran away like a headless chicken but fought until he died! :clown:

Perhaps if he did, he'd be here to see this. But then, we all have our different priorities. :laugh4:

[woad&fangs]

I still think I can pull off a win here :smg:
:sweatdrop:

[Zim]

With my "mighty" battle completed and this one winding down, that leaves the Ramses/Flydude showdown for this turn. Hopefully it's a win for team Ioannis III. :2thumbsup:

Well, i hope so at least. :clown:

[Ramses II CP]

We were scheduled for Thursday but technical difficulties got in the way and I'm out of town at the moment. We'll definitely work on it this week. :)

:egypt:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Technical difficulties? Could the mod have caused it?

[Ramses II CP]

Have to ask fd, things *appeared* to be working for me when I tested earlier Thursday.

:egypt:

[flyd]

It should work. The technical difficulties are on my end, in that my installation seems to be somewhere between hosed and porked. A reinstall will make everything happy. Of course, I have to get around to doing that, but I have all weekend since Ramses said he's unavailable until Monday, on which day we're now hoping the battle will occur.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Phoo, I'm glad that's over. As requested, I'll hold off on posting the orders, feedback, and umpire notes for a day or so. In addition, I'll add in the relevant Rear Guard results once that battle is resolved.

Good fight, everybody. :bow:

[Cecil XIX]

Indeed, that was quite a lot of fun guys. It's nice to have finally fought one of these things. :laugh4:

[Rowan]

I can't believe Bart actually survived.

Personally, this was amazing experience. My heart starts beating faster just thinking about it.
Big thanks to GeneralHankerchief and TinCow for the arrangements. :2thumbsup:

[TinCow]

Ramses and flyd: Let me know if there's any way I can help.

[flyd]

Things go well. The new install does not exhibit the MP-brokenness that the other did. It connects fine to the lobby, at least. Of course, reinstallations have to have at least one setback, which is why I so wisely deleted my copy of the 1.2 patch (but not the 1.3) some time ago. It's just a token setback, because it just introduces a delay, but there it is.

If anyone really wants to help, you could look through the custom battle maps to find one that matches the given description, which I'm simply too lazy to do. :beam: The description is: "Coastal map with ocean on one side and mountains on the other, restricting the battlefield to a central plain with a road running along it. Not much in the way of cover, just a generally flat plain, possibly with higher ground towards the mountain side."

[GeneralHankerchief]

If you can't find a perfect match, the oceanside feature is a priority. I'd even suggest the desert bridge/ford battle with a gentlemen's agreement that any unit crossing the ford is considered drowned.

-edit- That may not work since you'll have to deploy on opposite sides of the river. Maybe hold off on combat until the other side crosses the river and enters the "ambush me!" formation.

[Ignoramus]

If I remember correctly, the Arsuf battlemap has a coastline in the map.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The private feedback, orders, and umpire notes for Antioch are now up. In addition, I'm planning on writing a guide to PvP from both a player's and an umpire's perspective. Would you guys prefer this to be up before or after the final battle?

[Cecil XIX]

Not sure what difference it would make, so I'd leave it up to others. I'd love to help umpire a battle in the future.

Looking at the umpire's notes, I like how things worked out from an RP perspective. I tried to play Constantine as someone who felt he had god's protection (to an extent), but I would have been a lot more nervous in doing so if I had known the odds!

Also, it looks like PK/Makedonios' armor saved Constantine's life. Cool. :2thumbsup:

[TinCow]

Also, it looks like PK/Makedonios' armor saved Constantine's life. Cool. :2thumbsup:

It most certainly did. :sweatdrop:

[woad&fangs]

My archers failed another orders test:laugh4:

Great battle, Rowan and Cecil:bow: I was caught totally off guard by your alliance.

[GeneralHankerchief]

My archers failed another orders test:laugh4:

Right before I rolled, I thought to myself that the 50-50 chance of having the archers disobey was a bit harsh, and then the one came up. So that put an end to my self-doubt. :laugh4:

[Ramses II CP]

That was interesting. :laugh4:

Evidently the withdraw button and withdraw command don't work in MP. :help:

I suck. I swear I told them to GTFO Cecil, they just couldn't hear me.

:egypt:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Battle replay received. I'll go over it sometime in the next couple of days (moving out of the dorms tomorrow, so we'll see what happens).

[Rowan]

On turn 1 I forgot to state in the written orders which gate the reserve divisions should reinforce, although in the enclosed map I clearly indicated it should be the western one.

GH apparently didn't notice this because the spear militia, archers and great cross all followed Bart to the southern gate where they proved quite instrumental in keeping the southern gate in friendly hands and minimized the chance of conflict against Cecil's forces. I don't think I would've dared to charge quite so blithely if there wasn't a clear route for withdrawal...

[Ituralde]

So who exactly is holding me prisoner? :inquisitive:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

So, there is a new Basileus wannabe? Vartholomaios? Or is he working with Cecil?

[TinCow]

So who exactly is holding me prisoner? :inquisitive:

That depends on what Bart does. You were captured by Ioannis Tagaris and Vartholomaios Ksiros. If Bart is still loyal to Tagaris, then Tagaris will be the person who controls your fate. If Bart has turned on Tagaris, then Bart will determine your fate.

[Rowan]

That depends on what Bart does. You were captured by Ioannis Tagaris and Vartholomaios Ksiros. If Bart is still loyal to Tagaris, then Tagaris will be the person who controls your fate. If Bart has turned on Tagaris, then Bart will determine your fate.

As GH put it in the battle aftemath:

Nikitas, looking at Tagaris afterwards, widened his eyes in shock. "So you and I are both the prisoner of the same person and it's not Kousinos?"

"You tell me," Tagaris replied.

So yes, at the moment the person holding both prisoners is Bart. As to what shall be done with them... there are negotiations ongoing :evilgrin:


Edit for clarification: Bart is working with Emperor Whatshisnameagain née Kousinos Sophianos.

[TinCow]

I must say, the events over the past several months have mimicked historical Byzantine politics rather well.:2thumbsup:

[Ramses II CP]

For those curious about the results:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_OVSGmv5sLg4/SgBUrijoXnI/AAAAAAAAScw/yLsLQxFM8Mw/s800/0003.jpg

The host's replay is supposed to be more consistent, so FD will have to post that.

A quick summary:

We decided this was the closest map to having water nearby even though it wasn't correctly positioned. Took about an hour to get everything set up just right, and then we had to do the deployment 'live' because we both hit enter too soon somehow? So the start of the replay is going to be slooooow. The first thing I noticed in our test/setup game is that all my units look exactly the same. No riders on the horses, just generic cavalry in a bland generic color. Impossible to tell one from the other when they're mixed together. Obviously it's going to be an interesting battle. :juggle2:

The plan for Io was just to bleed them and withdraw. No dramatic charges or anything, fire off some arrows, try to kill as much of his infantry as possible, and get out. So I started backing up with skirmish on as soon as the battle started. I tried repeatedly to get my HA into 'loose' formation but it never seemed to take, or maybe doing it repeatedly just kept them flipping back into tight. There was a lot of stutter stepping lag for some reason (I mentioned it before the battle started in chat and I think FD was having the same); this being my first MTWII game I don't know if that's normal or not. I had already turned off grass, vegetation, and shadows to try to prevent performance problems and the camera was smooth, but all commands had to be issued repeatedly to try to get a result. I'm pretty sure FD was having the same problem, he mentions later the lack of any tactical niceties later. :laugh4:

Somewhere around in here we hit the 4:30 minute mark from the timed 'go' and I first try to order Io to withdraw (Yes, he's the kind of commander who puts his own life first. :embarassed: See his intro story.) and notice the button is grayed out. I have a screenshot of that but I gather that it's supposed to be that way in MP? I had no idea, but I asked FD what to do and he suggested using the control-W command.

So I continue to manually withdraw my men, running them to a fairly high ground spot, when I notice a gap between where the infantry are advancing and the screen of HA with the valuable Trebizond archers lagging pretty far behind their cover. I decide to take my shot and send my charge cavalry through that gap while ordering Io to withdraw with the command now, figuring the skirmish HA will cover him. My cavalry get caught up briefly with FD's HA (Another spot where we both obviously have trouble issuing orders as neither of us would want that melee). I finally get them extracted and on their way to hit those archers behind the line. Foolishly I've had the camera downfield trying to sort that out, so when I get back to where my HA are supposed to be skirmishing there's a brawl going on.

Obviously I can't distinguish anything in the mass of identical units so I took for granted that Io was on his way off the field. I click through my two HA preset groups and give them the withdraw command as well, punching it repeatedly to try to make it take. Then I mouse over the unit card area to bring them up and... nobody is withdrawing. Io's in the middle of a huge melee with most of his guards gone. Trying to run him out will probably get him killed. Half my decent HA are dead, caught in a melee with spearmen.

Annoyance took over at this point and I ordered everything into the melee o' death. I tried to order the Styks to flank around and make a series of charges, but they sort of just bunched up into a ball and got crunched uselessly. Eventually I noticed that the charge cavalry had finished the Treb archers and ordered them to come back. It was a mess. Putting it together afterwards it seems that Io, with withdraw orders not working, did the impetuous thing and charged the first enemy to get close. The HA indecisively dance around him, maybe trying to skirmish, until I get back and start to figure things out, putting them into the fight.

FD asked me afterwards if I wanted to invalidate the results (I do not! They seem entirely consistent with the chaos of an actual battle. Just consider my withdraw orders tests failed. :laugh4:) so I hope it doesn't sound like sour grapes, but I understand why no one wants to play MTWII MP battles now. Performance is awful and there's simply no way to execute the kind of coordinated tactics a player would use in a campaign when units won't respond consistently, as you can see in both our 'strategies' for this fight.

:egypt:

[TinCow]

Interesting. Sorry the withdrawal didn't work properly, having never done M2TW multiplayer, I wasn't aware of that issue. Still, you did inflict casualties at a 2:1 rate, so the result is very respectable.

[flyd]

The replay is already up.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=199&id=4880

Before the battle I was convinced that Ramses was going to charge in order to take advantage of the ambush setup. So when the battle started I quickly reversed and fanned out my infantry, and sent the cavalry flying in only to find Ramses sitting on his hill and watching. Since he had an advantage in horse archers, I was not interested in any kind of shootout. I formed my infantry in a line and ran them up the hill, straight at him. The horses came in from the flanks and charged in as well. Since it looked like he would be trying to preserve his forces, my plan was to charge everything at him until he was off the map. When the horse archers engaged in melee, I didn't mind since I could afford a battle of attrition better than a shootout; those horse archers I treated as light cavalry the entire time.

Once Ramses committed to the melee, there was... a melee. I was perfectly satisfied that that ended up happening. Because of Ramses's superior maneuverability, I was never going to execute any fancy flanking maneuver. As long as everyone was sitting still and hacking away at each other, I was happy. Sure enough, several minutes later, I won. :laugh4:

The melee was the only place where the performance issues interfered with me a little bit. I would occasionally disengage horses and send them around to charge at exposed enemy troops. I would have this a little more of that if it weren't so cumbersome. I didn't help that it was hard to distinguish between friendly and enemy units.

As to the MP overall, it can still work well. I think the problem was that my laptop's performance fell a little short in the melee. In my infinite genius, the only performance test I ran beforehand was to load up a battle with two full-size armies and quit immediately when it ran fine with them looking at each other. As for the withdraw issue, I had no idea it didn't work in MP, because I never actually tried to withdraw. In normal MP battles, there are no strategic considerations, so it's usually a fight to the death.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The private feedback, orders, and umpire notes for Antioch are now up. In addition, I'm planning on writing a guide to PvP from both a player's and an umpire's perspective. Would you guys prefer this to be up before or after the final battle?

Didn't notice this thing before. Will you post it in Throne Room or in this sub-forum? I perosnaly would prefer it do be in Throne Room.
Btw, I liked your guide about PBM's! :yes::balloon2:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Throne Room proper. I'm also going to notify all the GMs of the other games of its presence in case they miss it (sooner or later, civil war will happen in one of the other PBMs).

[TheFlax]

Ramses II CP and flyd, I fully sympathize with your differents woes regarding the MP service. Reading Ramses' frustrations brought back memories of my battle with YLC, mainly the feeling I had to fight with the interface to get my orders through, but in his case it seems to have gone even worse. I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm curious though, did you find each other on M2TW's matchmaking system? If so, you could join each other's game? I'm asking because neither YLC nor I could join the other's game in M2TW's matchmaking system.

[flyd]

Yes, we did. Your problem was certainly caused by a persistent little irritant called Network Address Translation. All routers and many DSL/Cable modems have to be configured to allow you to host a game. This holds for MTW as well as any other game or other kind of server.

[Ignoramus]

When do we out orders in for the next turn?

[TinCow]

I will implement the results of the battles on the in-game save this evening, and will then open up for the next round of movement orders.

[flyd]

What happens to YLC and his army?

[TinCow]

What happens to YLC and his army?

He is now an ally of Ignoramus for game rule purposes. He remains in command of his army, and that cannot be removed from him without force.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm assuming, then, that Bart decided to dispose of Nikitas as prisoner rather than keep him around.

[TinCow]

For some reason I thought Nikitas had been killed outright on the field. If this is not the case let me know and I will raise him from the dead so that he can wallow in chains.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Yep, Nikitas is Bart's prisoner along with Ioannis Tagaris.

[TinCow]

Then let it be so. Zombie Nikitas shall walk the earth once again.

[Rowan]

The Nikitas issue has been solved already, good.

Now if only Cecil answered his PM's we'd get forward on deciding what to do with the prisoners.

[mini]

if andronikos is moved to tortosa, does that mean he's my prisoner?

[TinCow]

if andronikos is moved to tortosa, does that mean he's my prisoner?

He's not actually in Tortosa IC, that's just where I'm storing his avatar until he decided whether he wants to still try and play a part in the war or whether he is done.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

So, GeneralHankerchief, when will you release that "Guide to PvP"? I might need it sooner than I thought! :beam:

[GeneralHankerchief]

So, GeneralHankerchief, when will you release that "Guide to PvP"? I might need it sooner than I thought! :beam:

Well, I had decided to do it after the LotR Final Battle was done, but if you need it for WotB, I'll start working on it sooner. :yes:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Well, I had decided to do it after the LotR Final Battle was done, but if you need it for WotB, I'll start working on it sooner. :yes:

I hope I don't need it anytime soon. If EB Multiplayer works fine then all PvP battles will be fought there but if it doesn't then a guide like this could help me a lot. ~:)

[Rowan]

Are we still waiting?

[TinCow]

I sent another message to Cecil this morning. We're waiting on him to decide on something.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Very well done, guys. :applause:

[Zim]

Only time I've ever had a giant army for pvp purposes and I never get to use it. :laugh4:

Fun game, everyone.

[Ramses II CP]

LotR had it's frustrating moments, but overall it was a pleasure. Good game and thanks to everyone who worked to make it happen. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

[Ituralde]

Congratulations to everybody! It was a fun game, it had its ups and downs and the end was a nice touch!

[TheFlax]

Good game everyone, for the parts I was there I had lots of fun. :yes:

A big thank you to TinCow and GeneralHankerchief. :bow:

[Rowan]

It was an amazing ride.

I sure didn't believe at the start that Bart would survive for the whole game (how many characters actually did?), rise to the top of his feudal chain or win an epic tabletop battle.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

It was an amazing ride.

I sure didn't believe at the start that Bart would survive for the whole game (how many characters actually did?), rise to the top of his feudal chain or win an epic tabletop battle.

I think Bart is the only one who managed to survive the whole game! :idea2:

Is he immortal??? :inquisitive:

[Rowan]

I think Bart is the only one who managed to survive the whole game! :idea2:

Is he immortal??? :inquisitive:

Could be. In one battle, I think it was against the former German crusade turned rebel, I had the Heroic Death pop-up or the general falling down zoom-in and a second afterward Continue/End battle dialog. Clicking in a hurry through the dialogs, Bart was still alive but wounded. :sweatdrop:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

In that case he must be Protoasecrtes' relative. He was already old when LotR started and yet he still outlived many avatars. Truely immortal one! :laugh4:

[ULC]

Whoot! I didn't die! Well, uh, yet anyway. Hurry Iggy, I have an ending to write :beam: