Composition hellenistic armies

[Dutchhoplite]

I´ve found parts of Bar-Kochva's book on the Seleucids on google books and John Warry stands here on the shelve.

Anyone more suggestions, sources or tips on the composition of Hellenistic armies??

[||Lz3||]

there was a really good guide about that but I'm afraid I don't remember where I found it ...

I think it was in one of Quintus' AARs

[||Lz3||]

bumpytidompity :bump:

no one has a clue?
or no one has the time-patience to explain? :huh2:

[Lysimachos]

Try this thread.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=105811

[||Lz3||]

Try this thread.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=105811

yay that was the one I was refering to :2thumbsup: thanks a lot

[Dutchhoplite]

I've been looking too. I've found a lot of wargame army lists ranging from the early armies, like the Eumenid, to the more "exotic" Cyrenaican Greeks.

I dont know how accurate these are but they *could* be used as a guideline. Here they are:

http://fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/index.html

And:

http://www.dbaol.com/armies.htm

[Victor1234]

The second link doesn't seem very accurate, from what I've seen of their Hungarian setups.

Edit: The first link isn't either. The thing to remember about early Hungarian armies, and even those well into the Christian kingdom period, is that infantry isn't mentioned at all in the historical sources. Apart from (presumably) using them as garrison troops for castles in the later period, they didn't form any part of the early Hungarian army (which was focused basically on fast looting raids into Europe, for which infantry is completely useless), so this "Slavic spearmen" or adding 8 spear units into the early Hungarian army is a dead give-away of a faulty source of info.

[Che Roriniho]

I've been looking too. I've found a lot of wargame army lists ranging from the early armies, like the Eumenid, to the more "exotic" Cyrenaican Greeks.

I dont know how accurate these are but they *could* be used as a guideline. Here they are:

http://fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/index.html

And:

http://www.dbaol.com/armies.htm

Cheers, but are these accurate? If so, I love you more than can be put into words!

[konny]

At least for the armies I know of, I would say that those are as accurate as they should be - for suggested army composition for wargamers that is, not correct historical OdBs of armies we often don't know very much about.

[Che Roriniho]

At least for the armies I know of, I would say that those are as accurate as they should be - for suggested army composition for wargamers that is, not correct historical OdBs of armies we often don't know very much about.

Righto. Now all I needto find is the goddamned formations!

[konny]

There is a generic formation that applies to most organized armies in history:

- Spearmen and other heavy infantry in the centre
- Missile units (and sometimes light cavalry) ahead of the main formation
- Light units and cavalry on the wings

[Che Roriniho]

There is a generic formation that applies to most organized armies in history:

- Spearmen and other heavy infantry in the centre
- Missile units (and sometimes light cavalry) ahead of the main formation
- Light units and cavalry on the wings

Cheers. As thanks, have a Che Roriniho Biscuit of Excellence.

[konny]

I have set up some armies with EB units using the DBA compostions. I think, the results are quite reasonable. (units in a line mean "either"; not all possible units for each class are listed)

Early Karthagian
https://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4976/karthfrhcg6.th.jpg (https://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karthfrhcg6.jpg)

Later Karthagian
https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8678/karthsptpa2.th.jpg (https://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karthsptpa2.jpg)

Getai/Thrakian
https://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7784/getaizn2.th.jpg (https://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=getaizn2.jpg)

Generic Eastern (Pontos, Armenia etc)
https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/43/easternce7.th.jpg (https://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=easternce7.jpg)

KH early
https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2716/khfrhspartyi2.th.jpg (https://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khfrhspartyi2.jpg)

KH Eastern
https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2043/khostui5.th.jpg (https://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khostui5.jpg)

KH Later
https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3466/khsptgt4.th.jpg (https://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khsptgt4.jpg)

KH Western
https://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8199/khwestkf3.th.jpg (https://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khwestkf3.jpg)

Ptolemaian
https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7214/ptolemaiansm4.th.jpg (https://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ptolemaiansm4.jpg)

Seleucide
https://img369.imageshack.us/img369/2815/seleucidegq4.th.jpg (https://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seleucidegq4.jpg)


EDIT: And some more:

Epeiros
https://img377.imageshack.us/img377/511/phyrroset8.th.jpg (https://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phyrroset8.jpg)

Armenia
https://img79.imageshack.us/img79/8170/armeniads6.th.jpg (https://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=armeniads6.jpg)

Makedonia
https://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2398/makedonhf7.th.jpg (https://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=makedonhf7.jpg)

Baktria/Indo-Greek
https://img501.imageshack.us/img501/3142/bactriaei4.th.jpg (https://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bactriaei4.jpg)

Pontos (Hellenic)
https://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6047/potnosha6.th.jpg (https://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=potnosha6.jpg)

[Dutchhoplite]

Wow, looks good Konny :)

[Che Roriniho]

I have set up some armies with EB units using the DBA compostions. I think, the results are quite reasonable. (units in a line mean "either"; not all possible units for each class are listed)
Early Karthagian
https://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4976/karthfrhcg6.th.jpg (https://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karthfrhcg6.jpg)

Later Karthagian
https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8678/karthsptpa2.th.jpg (https://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karthsptpa2.jpg)

Getai/Thrakian
https://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7784/getaizn2.th.jpg (https://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=getaizn2.jpg)

Generic Eastern (Pontos, Armenia etc)
https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/43/easternce7.th.jpg (https://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=easternce7.jpg)

KH early
https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2716/khfrhspartyi2.th.jpg (https://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khfrhspartyi2.jpg)

KH Eastern
https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2043/khostui5.th.jpg (https://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khostui5.jpg)

KH Later
https://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3466/khsptgt4.th.jpg (https://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khsptgt4.jpg)

KH Western
https://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8199/khwestkf3.th.jpg (https://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khwestkf3.jpg)

Ptolemaian
https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7214/ptolemaiansm4.th.jpg (https://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ptolemaiansm4.jpg)

Seleucide
https://img369.imageshack.us/img369/2815/seleucidegq4.th.jpg (https://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seleucidegq4.jpg)


EDIT: And some more:

Epeiros
https://img377.imageshack.us/img377/511/phyrroset8.th.jpg (https://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phyrroset8.jpg)

Armenia
https://img79.imageshack.us/img79/8170/armeniads6.th.jpg (https://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=armeniads6.jpg)

Makedonia
https://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2398/makedonhf7.th.jpg (https://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=makedonhf7.jpg)

Baktria/Indo-Greek
https://img501.imageshack.us/img501/3142/bactriaei4.th.jpg (https://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bactriaei4.jpg)

Pontos (Hellenic)
https://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6047/potnosha6.th.jpg (https://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=potnosha6.jpg)

Why do you always have to be so much better than anyone else Konny? Now, Formations, FIND!

EDIT: I might edit these slightly so they suit more the limited Formations I have.

[Dutchhoplite]

Besides the one Konny mentioned i don´t think there are standard formations

For example: at gabiene (315 BC) Antigonus massed his heavy Thracian cavalry, elephants, light infantry and skirmishers on his right and advanced against Eumenes, while refusing his ''center'' infantry and his very small force of light horse on his far left flank.

So you could say that the Antigonid infantry actually formed his left flank ;)

Eumenes basicly used the same formation...

[Che Roriniho]

Besides the one Konny mentioned i don´t think there are standard formations

For example: at gabiene (315 BC) Antigonus massed his heavy Thracian cavalry, elephants, light infantry and skirmishers on his right and advanced against Eumenes, while refusing his ''center'' infantry and his very small force of light horse on his far left flank.

So you could say that the Antigonid infantry actually formed his left flank ;)

Eumenes basicly used the same formation...

Yeh, but I mean like the standard formation - The romans had the quincux, The Maks had the Alexandros Phalanx, but whatdid, for example, Qartadastim use?

[konny]

Historical formations need not to be the best for a game like EB anyways. For example I get the best out of Camillan Romans when using the Triarii as a Hoplites Phalanx in the centre and the Hastati as flankers. Also playing the Romans I got very good results using somewhat Alexandrian tactics in Spain with a massive cavalry attack on one wing.

EDIT: Charthagians used the Tactics of the army they had copied I would guess. That would be Greek Hoplite for the early army (of this is hardly anything known) and Successor style for the late army (yes, we all know about the exception at Cannae).

[Che Roriniho]

Historical formations need not to be the best for a game like EB anyways. For example I get the best out of Camillan Romans when using the Triarii as a Hoplites Phalanx in the centre and the Hastati as flankers. Also playing the Romans I got very good results using somewhat Alexandrian tactics in Spain with a massive cavalry attack on one wing.

EDIT: Charthagians used the Tactics of the army they had copied I would guess. That would be Greek Hoplite for the early army (of this is hardly anything known) and Successor style for the late army (yes, we all know about the exception at Cannae).

Thanks, you're more useful than a Brothel in an office. Have a Che Roriniho Biscuit of Excellence.

[Krusader]

Thanks, you're more useful than a Brothel in an office. Have a Che Roriniho Biscuit of Excellence.

That's just text...now an image...that would be excellent.:smash:

[Che Roriniho]

That's just text...now an image...that would be excellent.:smash:

I'll get on it. Currently off for a Jog, then need to Carry on with my Manual project (v0.1 is in the works!)