Longbows vs Cavalry

[Hakonarson]

I as reading Sewards "100 Yrs War" last night in bed (yes, that's the sort of thing I read at bedtime!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif) and it occured to me that there are a couple of diferent classs of English longbow, and how they might be represented.

the longbow as it stands now is sort of half way betwen them.

1/ the early archers - basically englishmen with Welsh bows instead of the ones they'd been using up until then. There's nothign particularly grand about these guys - they don't have lots of armour, or carry stakes or 2-handed mauls etc.

they represent an increase in archer efficiency, but not really in hand to hand. tehse were the archers that fought at Hallidon Hill and Bannockburn in the early 1300's, and probably Crecy too.

2/ Middle period - as the early period but now adding stakes and/or pits, and carrying mauls and heavier armour than before.

These are the archers of Poitiers and Agincourt. Better at H-H, and with an anti-cavalry defence.

3/ Late - often heavily armoured and armed with 2-handed swords or sword and shield.


Now the increase in armour and arms can be got from teh usual weapon and armour building upgrades, so that's not a problem.

But I see room for a jump in anti-cavalry capability around 1350-ish - basicually about this date longbowmen should get an anti-cavalry bonus along teh lines that spearmen get - not a multiple rank bonus, but an anti-charge bonus (how're you going to charge through a forrest of stakes??)

Can some of the TW-system grogs tell me if this is feasible?

I think it should be linked to a building so it happens a bit of time after longbowmen are developed - any suggestions?

[deejayvee]

Good idea!

The early longbowmen should require Bowyers Guild.
The middle longbowmen should require Bowyers Guild and Armourer's workshop.
The late longbowmen should require Master Bowyer, Swordsmith's workshop and Armourer's guild.

Also, I think the anti-cav bonus should only apply if the longbowmen are standing still as the stakes need to be hammered into the ground.

[This message has been edited by deejayvee (edited 10-30-2002).]

[Richard the Slayer]

We already discussed this some length on my thread. Pretty much we all agreed the best thing to do is introduce earthworks into the game such as spikes and pits to ward off attacking cavalrymen. longbowmen were just as effective in 1200 as in 1400, they were just used more widely as time went on. Also some of those details about armored longbow etc. are prob. simple observations made by chroniclers at the time of a batlte and cannot be taken at their face value, plus I see what little it would do to add helmets or armor to longbow when their essential power lay in their firepower.

[Hakonarson]

The point is that longbowmen went through an evolution like many other troop types - they were not the same in 1200 as 1400 (in fact they were solely Welsh and fighting AGAINST the English in 1200, and consisted mainly of poorly clothed and otherwise unarmed tribesmen!)

The stakes are most cerainly a eral feature Richard - i don't know what yuore referring to otherwise, and while it might not be important to their shooting longbowmen DID uparmour and arm themselves as they became richer.

DJV - yes, I agree entirely that anti-caalry bonus should only apply while statinoary - in fact IMO it should only apply if the unit has been stationary for a minute or 2!!

Howver my idea is how to better recreate the historical longbowman using the features that MTW has now.

[Richard the Slayer]

Quote Originally posted by Hakonarson:
The point is that longbowmen went through an evolution like many other troop types - they were not the same in 1200 as 1400 (in fact they were solely Welsh and fighting AGAINST the English in 1200, and consisted mainly of poorly clothed and otherwise unarmed tribesmen!)

The stakes are most cerainly a eral feature Richard - i don't know what yuore referring to otherwise, and while it might not be important to their shooting longbowmen DID uparmour and arm themselves as they became richer.

DJV - yes, I agree entirely that anti-caalry bonus should only apply while statinoary - in fact IMO it should only apply if the unit has been stationary for a minute or 2!!

Howver my idea is how to better recreate the historical longbowman using the features that MTW has now.[/QUOTE]

Their armor may have changed, they may have even gotten swords, heck they may have stopepd fighting the english and started fighting the french, but the bottom line is these changes dont add a revolutionary factor to lonbowman for MTW sake - maybe a +1 here, +1 there, but overall a bigger change needs to be implemented to show longbowman more realistically. The use of stakes (Agincourt) and horse pits (Crecy) effectively gave the longbow a sturdy defense so that knights had a tougher time engaging the longbowmen in melee. This allows the longbow much freer reign to shoot at knights as sitting ducks. Also remember the inherant problems with longbow, once they were on the attack, they fought much worse. The reason why the french won the 100 years war was they were able to overcome their primitive tactics of lining up and charge so the french ignored the english longbow. the greatness of the longbow was its defensive prowess, and what better defensive porwess to make them stronger than 2nd rate fortifications (basic things like stakes and pits). I dont see how armor and swords will make MAJOR changes. P.S. as late as Agincourt the english longbow were still wearing nothing more than a steel helmet for protection. Countless eyewitnesses describe the bowman as very ragged and only having the scantest equipment (and this is 1415!). The only heavy longbowman you speak of may have only existed purely as hired mercanaries, not as formed combat units.

[TenkiSoratoti]

Well one things for sure, in real life i bet longbows were better than pavis arbelesters


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"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."

[deejayvee]

Quote I dont see how armor and swords will make MAJOR changes.[/QUOTE]
No, it won't be a major change. Thinking about it now, the armour changes are really already handled by the armour upgrade system. So the main change would be the addition of better melee weapons. And if that's the case, then other units will have to be able to change their weapon types over time.

So on second thoughts may be creating 3 different types of longbowmen will be an excessive amount of effort to dedicate to 1 unit. However, the stakes are something that should be added to the game.

[Hakonarson]

Hmm..sorry - I didn't word my original proposal well.

I'm not proposing 3 types of longbowmen - only 2 - those with stakes, and those earlier ones that were without.

the 3 broad classes I mentioned at the start are just background info.

The ONLY thing I'm suggesting is giving longbowmen an anti-cavalry value along teh same lines as that which spearmen nd pikemen have.

the sidearms and armour are already taken care of by the normal MTW armour and upgrade system.

An anti-cavalry value is only a stopgap for the current MTW system until proper stakes and other fortifications aer made available in some future rewrite (hopefully).

[deejayvee]

You could Mod it.

Create a second type of longbowmen and make the requirement, just say, Bowyer's guild and Spearmaker's guild. Give this new unit an anti-cav bonus. The only thing is that you won't be able to see the stakes, but it should play ok.

[Papa Bear!]

Quote Originally posted by Richard the Slayer:
We already discussed this some length on my thread. Pretty much we all agreed the best thing to do is introduce earthworks into the game such as spikes and pits to ward off attacking cavalrymen. longbowmen were just as effective in 1200 as in 1400, they were just used more widely as time went on. Also some of those details about armored longbow etc. are prob. simple observations made by chroniclers at the time of a batlte and cannot be taken at their face value, plus I see what little it would do to add helmets or armor to longbow when their essential power lay in their firepower.[/QUOTE]


thats not what I agree with, archers should be able to either fire as a group, (aiming by guessing at one master archers trajectory), or they should be able to fire on a flatter arc.

Thats how they should be ubered up I think.

[Hakonarson]

Archers generally only fired directly with the front 2 ranks - rear ranks always had to fire overhead.

And arrows are quie low velocity so even at short range (say 100 yds) they have to be fired at a fairly high elevation!