Just in case the map hasn't been finalized

[Zarax]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_mining_in_Sardinia
http://www.coptur.net/nora_en.html
Looks like the island should be a quite important place to hold, on the other side it might be more historically accurate to have Nora as the administrative capital (aka city) in Sardinia and Karali as docks.

I apologize for the quality of the links but it's hard to find accurate online information.

[Bellum]

And don't forget to change the capitol of Crete. :)

[Che Roriniho]

I think another province for Baktria should take prioirity. I reccomend one centered around Al-Khanoum.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Just some ideas...

There are some provinces in northern Europe, that seldom gets conquered by anyone, and that historically was not that important. Since there are other parts of the map that could use some more provinces, (North Africa, India, etc.), maybe they could be replaced by regions there instead. I'm especially thinking of the island of Gotland, Sapmi and one of the two provinces in Ireland (unless there is to be a new faction in the British Isles). Maybe there is some specific reason that theese are in there, but I think they could be put to better use elswhere. Gotland, for example, though having been suggested as the ancestral home of certain germanic tribes, was never very important during the EB-timeframe, and none of the factions presently in the game had any direct interests there.

Anyway, just a suggestion...


EDIT: 100th post! Yeeeeha!!!

[brymht]

I would think another tribe in BRitain / Hybernia could be added. We do have 10 slots free now.

[General Appo]

It´s about more then just space, it´s about history. They´ve got to have enough evidence to actually create another faction, they can´t just make on because it would be cool. Otherwise I´m sure we´d have a Galactic Empire faction on Sardinia with stormtroopers and death stars, ´cause that would be really cool (though blowing up the planet might be a bit of an overkill).

[Zarax]

It´s about more then just space, it´s about history. They´ve got to have enough evidence to actually create another faction, they can´t just make on because it would be cool. Otherwise I´m sure we´d have a Galactic Empire faction on Sardinia with stormtroopers and death stars, ´cause that would be really cool (though blowing up the planet might be a bit of an overkill).

Dedalonur9 brought this on us with the Shardana theory, didn't he?
Oh well, I remember the good old days when we were exchanging PMs with Tanit and Nuragic Infantry was still a secret...

[lobf]

I would think another tribe in BRitain / Hybernia could be added. We do have 10 slots free now.

And which tribe might that be?

[General Appo]

And most importantly can you give use evidence enough to justify the creation of such a faction?

[MAXIMVS]

It´s about more then just space, it´s about history. They´ve got to have enough evidence to actually create another faction, they can´t just make on because it would be cool. Otherwise I´m sure we´d have a Galactic Empire faction on Sardinia with stormtroopers and death stars, ´cause that would be really cool (though blowing up the planet might be a bit of an overkill).

Is this your way of breaking the news that there will be no island in the Atlantic stuffed with Amazon warriors then?

On b*gger, I was looking forward to that!
:laugh4:

[Connacht]

Just some ideas...

There are some provinces in northern Europe [...]

I also think that certain far provinces can be merged, for instance those two ones that occupy today's Carelia, Finland, Estonia and the territory near Moscow.
However, only the EB staff can decide this. ;)


EDIT: 100th post! Yeeeeha!!!

Amazing.
Here's a balloon for prize: :balloon2:

[Puupertti Ruma]

I also think that certain far provinces can be merged, for instance those two ones that occupy today's Carelia, Finland, Estonia and the territory near Moscow.
However, only the EB staff can decide this. ;)

Erm... Carelia, Finland and Estonia are already a merged into a one region called Sápmi. But you do have a point with that it could be merged with the region near present day Moscow, called Dahyu Thissikata.

There is a thing though. Dahyu Thissikata and Sápmi are two totally different kinds of regions both in geography and culture. Dahyu Thissikata consists mostly of the steppes, and has little of the taiga in it, and therefore would have mostly nomadic and pastoralist people living in it, probably of sarmatian origin. In EB it indeed has the ability to have nomadic or pastoralist goverment chosen by a nomadic faction. The Sápmi province in other hand is covered wholly in woodland. Coniferious in north and mixed and decidious at the baltia. The people in there are fenno-ugric and most of them have taken on a sedentary life of farmers, cattle herders and part time hunters. So as you see, these two regions, while close to each other, are quite different actually.

Also, The Sápmi province is a valid, although quite distant, target for the Swebóz and even more so, if another german tribe is added. For the sarmatians Sápmi is also a valid target but quite far. The Dahyu Thissikata in the other hand is really far for the germanic tribes, but it's practically next door to the Sarmatians. This would make for some balance issues, which could be bad, and could be good, if it would force the germans to the southern europe, where they ended up after all.

I am myself from Finland, and know my prehistoric times of Finland well enough to know that there wasn't too much of anything interesting here at 272 BC - 0 BC, at least in EB's perspective. Also, the archeological findings from that period are in my knowledge quite limited, at least if compared to other time periods before and after the 0 ad. So maybe Sápmi and Seliun Gentis, the region just south of Sápmi, could be merged in to one region. They are culturally and also geographically similar, and if my memory serves me right, they have exactly the same units in EB1. Or maybe the two Gentyses (or however the plural should be typed) could be merged into some Great Gentys/Gentis.

There are possibilities up here to do some scissor work.

[Majd il-Romani]

And which tribe might that be?

How about the Iceni or the Atrebatans or the Durotrigans?

(I dunno if these existed in 272BC because I got them from Simon Scarrow's book series, but he does seem to do his homework on this)

[chairman]

I've heard Team members hint at or outright state that the regions of Augila and Gaetulia are up for removal, which could give more space for other, more "important" areas. Just a rumor, this conversation never happened.

This does make sense though, as even if a Numidian faction (or 2) was included, Gaetulia is a ridiculously distant province to hold and does not make much if any impression on the larger picture, from my experience. It also causes otherwise relatively accurate ai progression maps to suddenly become very strange looking when Qart-Hardast conquers Tuat.

Augila would be justified for deletion if you consider that the major powers did not look much further inland than the city of Kyrene itself. Augila is in the middle of the desert (so is Ammon, but that's different) and most AI armies ignore it until they have conquered everything else in the region. If the human player conquers it first (possibly because it sometimes is closer than Kyrene), then the minimap looks very strange.

Chairman

[Puupertti Ruma]

I've heard Team members hint at or outright state that the regions of Augila and Gaetulia are up for removal, which could give more space for other, more "important" areas. Just a rumor, this conversation never happened.

Gaetulia has been at the chopping block previously at the time of 0.81, and the region was made in to a small rectangle in order for it's later removal. Eb team changed it's mind though and it was saved and reinstated at 1.0 as a viable province. I think it had something to do with the inclusion of Garamantine warriors, although I am not sure.

[Connacht]

Erm... Carelia, Finland and Estonia are already a merged into a one region called Sápmi.

In fact I didn't speak of a lot of different provinces, but only _two_ in the northern side of the map (one is Sápmi, the other Dahyu Thissikata). ;)

In my games Tuat was always conquered by the Carthaginians after some turns, and they also sent a lot of forces in order to garrison (or defend from my armies) it. And even after crushing the whole Carthaginian dominions on Northern Africa and Spain, if a family member is still alive, they can continue to develop a Fabulous Kingdom of the Desert with a strange large city that trains the last hopeless defenders and attempts to invade nearby provinces... ok for the Garamantines, but I think that it would be better to merge Gaetulia with Eremos.

[Puupertti Ruma]

In fact I didn't speak of a lot of different provinces, but only _two_ in the northern side of the map (one is Sápmi, the other Dahyu Thissikata). ;)

Yeah, I actually figured that out after reading your post more carefully and looking at the map. I honestly first thought that you spoke of only one province, as the Sápmi province is kind of patchworky, with the Gulf of Finland and other gulfs and bodies of water. I apologize for my mistake. Nonetheless the reasoning I did in my post was not made under this impression, as you might guess from the early inclusion of Dahyu Thissikata.

All things said, my points are still valid, at least in my books: Dahyu Thissikata and Sápmi are culturally and geographically too varied to varrant for a merging. A better option would be to merge the Seliun Gentis and Sápmi, as there is little gamewise to warrant the inclusion of Sápmi province.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Another option might be to add sápmi to that "wasteland"-province that currently covers the Sahara and the Arabian desert, and is called Eremos. Might not be possible for some reason though...

Otherwise, Sapmi and Seliun Gentis could be merged, and Gotland could be merged with the rest of Sandinavia, since, as Puupertti Ruma stated, neither the Baltic, nor Scandinavia was very important in this period. If I'm not mistaken, Tacitus wrote in the first century AD that the "Sueoni" (Swedes) lived on an island in the ocean, and went to sea in ships driven by oars, as they did not know of the sail, and this is the first we hear of them. It has been suggested that the spread of Celtic culture throughout central Europe caused the trade with southern Europe to cease completely, and this, along with climate changes, flung Scandinavia into a dark age which lasted from about 500 b.C to the first century AD. Archaeological finds have also implied that Scandinavia was indeed a backwater during this time.

Anyway, if these, and maybe also the two provinces in Ireland were merged, and if it is true that both Augila and Gaetulia are to be removed (pure speculation, I know), this would give us 5 new provinces to disperse over the map. Of these, I actually think that one or two might be put in another place in north Africa (Especially if there is to be one or maybe even two Numidian factions), maybe yet another one, or maybe more, in Greece. I know there are many there already, but I still think it has a tendency to get rather cramped down there. And then some in India or on the Iranian plateu.

But, as always, this is not up to me to decide...:beam:




Amazing.
Here's a balloon for prize: :balloon2:

Well thank you, kind sir!

[Connacht]

And then some in India or on the Iranian plateu.

Hmmm, but the team already stated that India won't be added because for many reasons, for instance it will require too many provinces so these new 5 provinces aren't enough and should be added in the Mediterranean area or in the Iranian lands.
Greece? Dunno, there is a bit crowded down there with Sparte, Corinth, Athen etc. perhaps instead a new province nearby, in Illyria or in Thracia.

Speaking of other things, I would also suggest to toggle the sea access from today's Jordan (I don't remember the name of the city, but it is the one on the right of Hierosolyma) and give those lands to Petra, forming what was called Arabia Petreia (instead in the EB map there is a province in the Sinai peninsula and a "Jordan/Northern Arabia" province).


Well thank you, kind sir!

Lol. :beam:

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Hmmm, but the team already stated that India won't be added because for many reasons, for instance it will require too many provinces so these new 5 provinces aren't enough and should be added in the Mediterranean area or in the Iranian lands.
Greece? Dunno, there is a bit crowded down there with Sparte, Corinth, Athen etc. perhaps instead a new province nearby, in Illyria or in Thracia.


I didn't mean to include the whole of India. What I meant is that the three provinces there are rather big, IMO, and thus, you could divide one of them into two... maybe.

And yes, Greece is crowded, but in my experience the KH has a tendency to blitz the Makedonians and Epeiros, and thus creating one huge balkan-empire, stretching from modern Slovenia to Athens.
(They might do this anyway, though...)

[chairman]

I heard awhile back during a discussion concerning Gotland that it is where the team placed the city/province that is hardcoded as the Vanilla "Rome". They did this because the island is unlikely to be conquered very easily, thus preventing the AI from prematurely upsetting the script to end the game. I can't remember all of the details from that discussion, but that's what I do remember. AFAIK, eliminating Gotland might cause an AI or player controlled faction to accidentally end the game early by conquering the new city that is linked by hardcode to the Vanilla "Rome". I dunno.

Chairman

[Perturabo]

Chairman,

Indeed that is correct for RTW, Gotland is Rome (think maybe Rilder might have said that?). Visby is the same place in MTW2, and I can assure you the AI has no compunctions in assaulting it, in fact seems to have an unnatural fondness for it.

There might need to be some little unconquerable region (as in EB1) in the desert that can be used for the same purpose, perhaps the Eleutheroi hidout can be one and the same.

[Dumbass]

Why no just make Terhazza rome then. The Ai will never be able to conquer that.

[Megas Methuselah]

I thought they were just using the same map from EB 1.1.
:inquisitive:

[Foot]

No, there are several changes that will occur in EBII. The map is based upon the map from EBI, but it will be altered to suit the needs of having new factions.

Foot

[Fondor_Yards]

Another option might be to add sápmi to that "wasteland"-province that currently covers the Sahara and the Arabian desert, and is called Eremos. Might not be possible for some reason though...

I like this idea. No faction would conquer the lands up there, there was zero reason to at all.



Unless one of the new factions is a baltic faction, hmmmmmm?

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Exactly!

It was hardly possible to keep such a large are, bereft of all sorts of unity or infrastructure, under direct controll. And also, none of the factions currently in had any real interests there. Its simply to far away...

[Zenith Darksea]

Unless one of the new factions is a baltic faction, hmmmmmm?

Unless the EB team has scholars with literally miraculous powers of historical research, then I doubt that one of the new factions will be in the Baltic. After all, I've already heard one of the EB team explain why such a faction can't be added (to whit - we know sod-all about them).

[General Appo]

Indeed. If such a faction for some reason was added, it would probably still only have the 4 units the Balts have now, and probably even less so since those units are divided over two rather different kinds of balts, the eastern and western ones. The "cities" would still just have generic names, not historically proven ones, the characters names would be just guesswork, I mean, everything would just be guesses. Plus it wasn´t really like they had any chance of expansion, much less so than for example the Sweboz. The Balts were to my understanding almost less advanced than the tribal system of the Germans, and an actualy unification of any more than a few semi-nomadic families or "towns" of no more than a few thousand people if even that, seems very unlikely. Nor does the conquest of any other faction appears likely, at most some Germanic or Steppe nomadic (though not actually from the sauromatae) raids would have been conducted on the very brinks of the actual baltic culture. Well, maybe in modern eastern Poland and such some Balts perhaps lived under a Germanic ruling class, but... that I really don´t know about and I very, very much doubt anything could be done with it.
No, a Baltic faction seems doomed no to appear.

[Cartaphilus]

What about Balearic islands?

If the city change to Ebussus (Iboshim) you could keep it under carthaginian rule as it is now.
But if you want to maintain the city in Majorica: Bocchoris, and the government system will be similar to what we have now, think in changing to type III or IV for more historical accuracy.

[Fondor_Yards]

That was a joke, I don't think there will be baltic faction.

[Cartaphilus]

If you will make a new celtiberian or iberian faction maybe a new province will be needed in Hispania.
As well in North Africa with two new numidian kingdoms.

[General Appo]

Just to add here Cartaphilus, the EB team has never officialy stated that there will be two (nor one for that matter) Numidian factions. I´m sorry if this is not what you meant, but to me it sounded like you believe that they actually have.

[Cartaphilus]

I know that.
It was only a simple assumption (and not made by me), like all the posts in this thread.

I expect only one numidian faction - but another one will be welcomed too.
But if we have new factions in the area (as in Hispania) they will need some "Lebensraum" - and the fight for it will be hard.

[TheGlobalizer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_mining_in_Sardinia
http://www.coptur.net/nora_en.html
Looks like the island should be a quite important place to hold, on the other side it might be more historically accurate to have Nora as the administrative capital (aka city) in Sardinia and Karali as docks.

I apologize for the quality of the links but it's hard to find accurate online information.

Karalis is the proper city choice in Sardinia; it was the most significant city on the island at the time. The only other hypothetical I would see would be Tharros, midway up the western coast (the city was established by Nuraghi, then conquered by the Phoenicians and later the Romans).

I visited this summer:

https://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w348/theglobalizer/Tharros.jpg

https://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w348/theglobalizer/TharrosColumns.jpg

(Tower is from a later Spanish period.)

I don't understand the placement of the port at the northeast of the island, however. Karalis was a significant port in its own right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagliari#Early_history
http://www.isolasarda.com/nora-storia_e.htm

I certainly don't think Sardinia warrants 2 cities. I'm not even sure Corsica warrants its own city.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Yeah, two cities in Sardinia might be overkill, those extra provinces are needed elsewhere. Still, I definately think that Sardinia and Corsica should be separate provinces. Not only for obvious gameplay-reasons, but also because it makes no sense that if you conquer Sardinia, you get a complementary island for free. Corsica is a province in its own right, and should stay that way.
The Romans conquered them separately, after all...

[TheGlobalizer]

Yeah, two cities in Sardinia might be overkill, those extra provinces are needed elsewhere. Still, I definately think that Sardinia and Corsica should be separate provinces. Not only for obvious gameplay-reasons, but also because it makes no sense that if you conquer Sardinia, you get a complementary island for free. Corsica is a province in its own right, and should stay that way.
The Romans conquered them separately, after all...

Agree completely if there was no cap on # of cities. I'm not sure Corsica makes the top 199 in that map, tho.

[mp0925]

boy do i love having acces as an Eb web dude to that sort of info cause i know the map size more or less! yea!

and im not telling any body anything! ;)

[Carlos Matthews]

boy do i love having acces as an Eb web dude to that sort of info cause i know the map size more or less! yea!

and im not telling any body anything! ;)

Why would you post that? :dizzy2:

Seems like complete spam to me. Or you are trying to be humerous.

[abou]

I wouldn't say that we've finalized things yet. We certainly have quite a bit still planned, a number of changes that, at least, I like, and a few things here or there to still be debated.

That's all I'll say on the matter.

[Celtic_Punk]

I firmly believe that the Ionian islands need to be an region in their own. i also think maybe Malta should be an island with a city. their should be alot more conquerable islands in the med. But that's just one Gael's opinion

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

I firmly believe that the Ionian islands need to be an region in their own. i also think maybe Malta should be an island with a city. their should be alot more conquerable islands in the med. But that's just one Gael's opinion


I am convinced that there are quite a few of us out there who would like such things, but unfortunately, the M2TW engine has a region limit of 199, which was already reached in EBI, and even though the map apparantly will be reworked for EBII, there might be places that are in more dire need of new provinces than, for example, Malta.

[Zarax]

Karalis is the proper city choice in Sardinia; it was the most significant city on the island at the time. The only other hypothetical I would see would be Tharros, midway up the western coast (the city was established by Nuraghi, then conquered by the Phoenicians and later the Romans).

I visited this summer:

https://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w348/theglobalizer/Tharros.jpg

https://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w348/theglobalizer/TharrosColumns.jpg

(Tower is from a later Spanish period.)

I don't understand the placement of the port at the northeast of the island, however. Karalis was a significant port in its own right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagliari#Early_history
http://www.isolasarda.com/nora-storia_e.htm

I certainly don't think Sardinia warrants 2 cities. I'm not even sure Corsica warrants its own city.

Nora was the administrative and military capital under both Carthage and Rome until early empire, Karali was definitely bigger but mainly a commercial city where ore from the mines and other good would flow to the port directed towards africa and other destinations.

Anyways, on a second thought: Could you guys consider putting a permanent fort in the center of Sardinia to represent the independent tribes over there?