Hayasdan Advice

[Marcus Ulpius]

Getting tired of full stack vs full stack heavy infantry battles which I have now with my Romani, I've tried to start a side campaign and decided to try Hayasdan. I've lasted for 5 turns. May be it's the record of a shortest campaign ever.

I've assembled an army out of initial 2x generals, some Caucasian Spearmen, some archers and one unit of light cav. I could attack one of 2 cities - Meshket or Kotais. I've chosen Kotais as it would probably be better for trade as it has a port. I've laid siege on the town, which was defended by some spearmen, slingers and 2-3 units of Georgian Swordsmen and skirmishers. On the next turn I was attacked also by an eleutheroi army that popped out of nowhere and an army of Kotais sallied forth. I dispatched that smaller army (not without losses unfortunately) and another army returned to Kotais.

The next turn the rebels sallied forth again. Against my already somewhat diminished 1x light cav, 4x Caucasian Spearmen, 2x Archers, 2x generals and one unit of skirmishers they brought - 2 units of swordsmen, 2 units of skirmishers, 3 units of Caucasian Spearmen, one light cav general, 1x slingers, 1x archers and one unit of Pantodapoi (sp).

The swordsmen tuned out to be absolute killers and eventually everyone engulfed my poor spearmen who of course routed after losing 70% of men.

So, I'm in debt with no army and every rebel garrison is stronger than what I have. Actually from the start, rebel garrisons are stronger than my whole army and in 3-4 turns I'm in debt. Is it even possible to play as Hai? The description says "nigh-impossible", may be it's time to drop that "nigh" part.

Anyway, any advise is welcome...

P.S. the title should be "Hayasdan advise needed" of course. Too bad can't edit that.

[Hax]

Hammer and anvil. Don't expect your Caucasian spearmen to hold out against the Georgian swordsmen for long. Circle around with your Khuveshavagan Shahrdar and attack them in the rear. Also, kill the enemy general as soon as possible.

Conquering your neighbouring cities shouldn't be a problem. The real problem will be the AS.

[Hegix]

Disband your cavalry, they only drain your money. Gather up as many units as you can get together in the first round and focus on Kotais. The key is to have an army that is weaker than the garrison troops so they sally the first round of the siege. Stand back and let your archers kill as many Georgians as possible. Then it's just hold with the spearmen, smash in the back with FMs. Unless you play at harder difficulty than M battle there should be no problems.

I never had any trouble with the other tribes, the real pain is when the Seleucids decide that they can do a better job ruling your cities. You should have been able to take Kotais, Mtskheta, Kabalaka and Ani-Kamah before that happens though.

Good luck, I'm knee deep in a Hay campaign right now and I love it.

edit: just remembered something. Ally with the Sauromatae ASAP, they have never betrayed me even when I took the Bosphorous before them. It's good to never have to worry about your northern borders.

[Marcus Ulpius]

Hammer and anvil. Don't expect your Caucasian spearmen to hold out against the Georgian swordsmen for long. Circle around with your Khuveshavagan Shahrdar and attack them in the rear. Also, kill the enemy general as soon as possible.

Conquering your neighbouring cities shouldn't be a problem. The real problem will be the AS.

That's what I was trying to do, but it was just too many of them, so my frontline was overwhelmed. I even managed to rout one unit of swordsmen, but had to retreat to prevent my general from being surrounded by spearmen and those swordsmen returned again.

[Hax]

You are playing on Medium battle difficulty, are you?

Also, take some distance. Let your archers deal with the enemy first before they come to you. That should all work fine.

[Marcus Ulpius]

I'll try some different approach on my next try. Probably I'm too used to Romani, where in a similar situation I just charge the sallying troops with my heavy inf, before they get organized. And yes, I'm playing on med diff.

[Sarkiss]

I'll try some different approach on my next try. Probably I'm too used to Romani, where in a similar situation I just charge the sallying troops with my heavy inf, before they get organized. And yes, I'm playing on med diff.
forget your "Roman habits", cavalry is your main arm now.
if you delay your hammer for too long your anvil doesnt stand a chance to pull it off by itself.
and always try to properly weaken the enemy with your missile troops before the main clash.
it takes awhile to get a handle of it, but its totally worth it. a very different approach and style of a warfare. its completely different from Romano-Hellenic and thats the beauty of it. you cannot solely rely on any particular troops type, and the best choice is a balanced combination of three - long range missile, infantry and medium/heavy cavalry.
pepper enemy fro as long as possible. your infantry, especially the ones you start with, needs as much help as it can get. remember that your light infantry is not a decisive arm on its own. it is a little wander its got chopped to pieces by heavier swordsmen.

[socal_infidel]

Get yourself some Scythian horse archers. The AS won't stand a chance. As soon as those basterds enter your lands, send some HAs at them, empty quivers, retreat. Repeat until their army is depleted enough that you feel comfortable taking them head on.

[tapanojum]

With the Hai, I tend to hammer/Anvil with the cavalry while also sending my archers around behind the Georgian Swordsmen and shooting them down. You shouldn't have any problems with rebels until AS come.

The true power is in your cavalry. Read the cavalry guide in the AAR section if you're unsure if you're using it right.

I once managed to take Ani-Kamah with the starting army in the south, ended up having over 800 kills with my cavalry alone because the rest of my army routed.

[konny]

forget your "Roman habits", cavalry is your main arm now.

Absolutly. You need to think in Mediavel terms: the heavy noble cavalry rules the field and is able to crush everything that you enemies might send against you. You get some fine infantry much later in the game, like Persian Hoplites, Syrian Archers and Armenian Swordsmen; but for now you'll have to do with Caucasian levies and Skythians.

Tacticaly it means that the infantry has a mere auxiliary role. Use lots of archers to shoot down unarmoured enemies and have them protected from enemy cavalry by some cheap spearmen. Don't bother to hunt down enemy light troops (including light cavalry) with your noble horse. That's the job of your auxiliary units. And do not try to attack enemy medium or heavy infantry with your foot. They won't succeed. That's the job of the heavy cavalry.

For the early game you should draft all family members to your army. Keep them together on one wing in a deep formation (in double line). After conquering the first town, you also have Skythian horse-archers and Georgian swordsmen. Hire, for example, two units of each per army: the Georgians to protect your spearmen; the Skythians should try to get in the back of the enemy. They are able to gather much experience very fast, and with one or two silver chevrons they are absolutly lethal shooting in the back even of Seleucide elite phalanx.

The charge of the knights is always the climax and decisive moment of the battle. Wait until your archers have reduced the foe, but do not wait until the enemy got in contact with your infantry. You need to keep your heavy horsemen together to crush with one strike, what follows that you can only attack one enemy unit at a time. Judge carefully and, as soon as the unit you have attacked starts routing, pull out your horsemen and form up for the next attack. Only use light cavalry to hunt down routers.


On the raiding strategy: You can calculate to kill an average of 100 enemies per unit of horse-archers that you use in a raid (on hughe unit size), depending on the armour of the enemy. That means a troop of five units horse-archers can destroy a full stack of enemies in five raids with only a handfull of own losses.
Using raids you should never:
- autocalc
- sent FMs with because these raids are all counted as battles lost. The bodyguards are also to slow to follow the swift movements of the HAs on the field.
- attack the enemy on a spot where the HAs would afterwards retreat to a town different than that where the main army is. Otherwise you'll have to fight the next battle without them.


When defending Armenia against the Grey Death you should make all your infantry garrisons of your towns and use an all-cavalry army that rushes up and down the land to fight off enemy invasions. When this has reached the zone of operations draft foot soldiers from nearby garrisons to fill up the ranks. Sent this infantry back to their garrison towns after the battle and move on with your cavalry.

Offensive you can't do different than take infantry with you. Nevertheless you should always try to get the fighting to open field. Pitched battles in close streets is something where the Greek factions are far superior. So, when you usually would aviod siegeing a town when the enemy still has a field army in that province, it might be wise with Armenia to do exactly this: fighting the field army and the garrison on open field at a time - provided you are not terribly outnumbered doing so.

Economicaly you should focus on mines. Trade is minimal, and even lesser once at war with the Seleucids. Building basic mines in all towns should be the first major project everywhere. Later you'll have another important source of income: plunder.

[Marcus Ulpius]

Thanks for all the advice, guys. I've restarted the campaign and this time I've taken Kutais and Meshket. The economy is giving small profit. Not enough to build anything good, but at least I can retrain troops. Hopefully, AS will leave me alone for some time and will be occupied elsewhere (they are fighting Pahlava and the Ptolies now).

The strategy is absolutely different from the Romans. Much more maneuvering with the cavalry and, Caucasian spearmen are only capable of dealing with Georgian swordsmen after the later were significantly softened by archers.

On a side note - how can I make the recruitment viewer work properly? It doesn't show Homeland/Expansion regions, unit cards are empty and color legend for the map is not showing as well.

[whatthehell6]

On a side note - how can I make the recruitment viewer work properly? It doesn't show Homeland/Expansion regions, unit cards are empty and color legend for the map is not showing as well.

I had the same problem. I just uninstalled it and re-downloaded and installed it and it works beautifully again. Try that yet?

[Danest]

I have an (apparently) unusual tactic for Hayasdan. The Seleukids are going to attack you, no way around it. And often when they do so, every other country around you will cascade into a declare-war-fest against you. So, pre-emptive war. Don't wait for AS to attack you, on their own terms. I charged with everything I had, straight for Babylon, took both big cities that were almost completely undefended. I tore out the whole center of the Seleukid empire without barely meeting more than a unit or two. BY the time they recovered their wits and brought troops back from the borders (I guess), I was dug-in and ready. But yeah, in big battles, always use your family members (more than one even), hit them from every side.

[DaCrAzYmOfO]

Forts are your friend, for the mountain passes are few... just make sure to build em with some space in front of the main bottleneck, so you can have the terrain advantage if you need it ^-^

That should give you enough time to get your main armies into the area where the gray death is invading.

and on a battlefield note, everyone else pretty much gave you the right idea lol

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Good and disciplined heavy infantry is a gift from the Gods.

Try luring their infantry with one cavalry unit, then attacking them with other just maneuvering behind them. Rinse and repeat, and you'll get a heroic victory with an all cavalry army; worked with me in vanilla.

[Poulp']

I have an (apparently) unusual tactic for Hayasdan. The Seleukids are going to attack you, no way around it. And often when they do so, every other country around you will cascade into a declare-war-fest against you. So, pre-emptive war. Don't wait for AS to attack you, on their own terms. I charged with everything I had, straight for Babylon, took both big cities that were almost completely undefended. I tore out the whole center of the Seleukid empire without barely meeting more than a unit or two. BY the time they recovered their wits and brought troops back from the borders (I guess), I was dug-in and ready. But yeah, in big battles, always use your family members (more than one even), hit them from every side.

interesting tactic, plant a thorn in their side and establish a good defensive position, that should leave your northern land free of seleucid's offensives.

[Hegix]

I have an (apparently) unusual tactic for Hayasdan. The Seleukids are going to attack you, no way around it. And often when they do so, every other country around you will cascade into a declare-war-fest against you. So, pre-emptive war. Don't wait for AS to attack you, on their own terms. I charged with everything I had, straight for Babylon, took both big cities that were almost completely undefended. I tore out the whole center of the Seleukid empire without barely meeting more than a unit or two. BY the time they recovered their wits and brought troops back from the borders (I guess), I was dug-in and ready. But yeah, in big battles, always use your family members (more than one even), hit them from every side.

I do the same thing if there is no immediate threat to my homeland. The difference is I only raze the cities. Kill the citizens, destroy all buildings and presto, I can build all the mines I need. Then back up to the mountains again.

[Grriffon]

Absolutly. You need to think in Mediavel terms: the heavy noble cavalry rules the field and is able to crush everything that you enemies might send against you. You get some fine infantry much later in the game, like Persian Hoplites, Syrian Archers and Armenian Swordsmen; but for now you'll have to do with Caucasian levies and Skythians.

Tacticaly it means that the infantry has a mere auxiliary role. Use lots of archers to shoot down unarmoured enemies and have them protected from enemy cavalry by some cheap spearmen. Don't bother to hunt down enemy light troops (including light cavalry) with your noble horse. That's the job of your auxiliary units. And do not try to attack enemy medium or heavy infantry with your foot. They won't succeed. That's the job of the heavy cavalry.

For the early game you should draft all family members to your army. Keep them together on one wing in a deep formation (in double line). After conquering the first town, you also have Skythian horse-archers and Georgian swordsmen. Hire, for example, two units of each per army: the Georgians to protect your spearmen; the Skythians should try to get in the back of the enemy. They are able to gather much experience very fast, and with one or two silver chevrons they are absolutly lethal shooting in the back even of Seleucide elite phalanx.

The charge of the knights is always the climax and decisive moment of the battle. Wait until your archers have reduced the foe, but do not wait until the enemy got in contact with your infantry. You need to keep your heavy horsemen together to crush with one strike, what follows that you can only attack one enemy unit at a time. Judge carefully and, as soon as the unit you have attacked starts routing, pull out your horsemen and form up for the next attack. Only use light cavalry to hunt down routers.


On the raiding strategy: You can calculate to kill an average of 100 enemies per unit of horse-archers that you use in a raid (on hughe unit size), depending on the armour of the enemy. That means a troop of five units horse-archers can destroy a full stack of enemies in five raids with only a handfull of own losses.
Using raids you should never:
- autocalc
- sent FMs with because these raids are all counted as battles lost. The bodyguards are also to slow to follow the swift movements of the HAs on the field.
- attack the enemy on a spot where the HAs would afterwards retreat to a town different than that where the main army is. Otherwise you'll have to fight the next battle without them.


When defending Armenia against the Grey Death you should make all your infantry garrisons of your towns and use an all-cavalry army that rushes up and down the land to fight off enemy invasions. When this has reached the zone of operations draft foot soldiers from nearby garrisons to fill up the ranks. Sent this infantry back to their garrison towns after the battle and move on with your cavalry.

Offensive you can't do different than take infantry with you. Nevertheless you should always try to get the fighting to open field. Pitched battles in close streets is something where the Greek factions are far superior. So, when you usually would aviod siegeing a town when the enemy still has a field army in that province, it might be wise with Armenia to do exactly this: fighting the field army and the garrison on open field at a time - provided you are not terribly outnumbered doing so.

Economicaly you should focus on mines. Trade is minimal, and even lesser once at war with the Seleucids. Building basic mines in all towns should be the first major project everywhere. Later you'll have another important source of income: plunder.


This is a pretty great guide. I know I'm playing a Hayasdan campaign and found it useful. Thanks.

[vartan]

I wouldn't have noticed this thread had it not been for Mac. Thanks Mac. As for the posts themselves, I recommend people read Konny's post. Hai = Cavalry.