My love of England, my window to racism

[Incongruous]

Recently I began to put rather uncomfortable questions to myself, I had decided that these thoughts could no longer be ignored. I am reading a book on English history and English cultural heritage, the idyllic vision of woodland and soft hills comes to my mind. So too does the image of London as it was before the bombings and the concrete fortresses which dominate her once lovely skyline, the dominance of the new the end of England. As I wish it. I find in this concept of England a fanciful escape, a coward's way of hiding from the modern world.

Then I remember what England really is, a place which is run by those with little respect for it's history and ancient culture. I apply to them the category of Lefty-Liberals, looking to get rich and stay in power by riding the globalist-liberal wave, what is that? Who are these people? It doesn't matter because I know they are there and I hate them.

I read on the BBC an article on what the Archbishop of Canterbury says, Sharia law in England, I seethe in anger I damn him for his lack of a backbone for being the modern conception of a man, spineless and without courage. My childhood was full of the tales of men seen as heroes, by some, surely I think they would detest and destroy men like Dr. Williams?
Then I turn my attention to THEM...
Those Muslims, always trying to impress their foreign values on US, they have no respect of understanding of my nations ancient past. It is a thought which has, like a cancer, grown ever so slowly in my mind. I have been unable, or unwilling, to kill it. I begin to look for them in books and media, I want to get angry, I want to find reasons to hate them. I read and hear words like discrimination and I burn at the accusation that England must accommodate, why? Why are they here, I think, if they do not want to be like us?
I read another article in the BBC, the BBC is still hideously white, says some British-African Lord. That cancer suddenly gets bigger, it spreads to encompass THOSE PEOPLE. Why should the BBC become darker? England is English is it not? What is wrong with the BBC having white people read the news?
Again I go looking for trouble, I read the comments of immigrant peoples, I find in them things repulsive to me, why do they fill discriminated against? Why do they dress like that? Why do they not consider themselves English? Why are they here?

The thoughts have become more frequent, I begin to feel tragic, England is gone, St George is nothing, Hengist and Horsa, who are they. I need someone to blame, THEM.

I have asked myself what are these thoughts? Why am I thinking them? I never used to, the idea of England no longer being as it was as it should be has never worried me before.
I have, I believe become a closet racist, I hate racists though, don't I? Or perhaps I don't, perhaps when I have seen them, heard them, talked to them my thoughts of abhorrence and anger were masking something else. Understanding? Sympathy?

Is this a product of my love of England and it's history? How can modern developments not anger others like they do me without them finding they have become closet racists, or bigots?

I believe that, this phenomenon may be more common than I had thought, that everyone is hiding something behind their talk of multiculturalism and acceptance. I know that there are others out there who openly embrace this cancerous growth within the mind, but I do not want to.
So I have laid myself open to your thoughts, because I believe that some of you may be able to rid me of this.

I fully accept that some of you may now hold me in contempt and I do not blame you for it. But I believe this is a problem which is effecting a great many countries and it needs airing.

[Banquo's Ghost]

To a greater or lesser extent, we all have racist tendencies. Exploring the irrationality of them is a good step, if you are willing to listen to other views.

I think your first consideration is your choice of reading matter. If you think that England was ever like that country you characterise in your post, then you haven't read widely enough.

The next point to consider is that racism breeds in the stagnant pools of generalisation. Use labels for groups of people long enough and they become faceless. Generalised statements can be useful as a shorthand, but realising that is the limit of their use in human relations is important.

Proclamation ex tea-towel: I'm going to allow this thread to develop because I believe Bopa is genuinely trying to explore an issue. The usual rules on personal attacks and outright racism apply.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

[Tribesman]

I think your first consideration is your choice of reading matter. If you think that England was ever like that country you characterise in your post, then you haven't read widely enough.

There isn't really much anyone can add to that .

Though just for the fun of it ......
I read on the BBC an article on what the Archbishop of Canterbury says, Sharia law in England, I seethe in anger I damn him for his lack of a backbone for being the modern conception of a man, spineless and without courage. My childhood was full of the tales of men seen as heroes, by some, surely I think they would detest and destroy men like Dr. Williams?

Is that a good example of lack of reading and comprehnsion , unless of course you can tell me what was wrong with the archbishops speech and how it is against the historical tradition of Britian ...apart from if you want to view Britains great tradition as things like the penal laws on religeon and class them as positive aspects of its culture rather than a very dirty great stain on it .

But when we get to this ...

Then I turn my attention to THEM...

...well I could go on about how you could use some Oswald speeches about his THEM and apply them to your post but that might be construed as a Godwin , so far better to go back into Britains glorious cultural monoethnic history and ask you about the earlier Queen Elizabeth and her views on all them nasty dark skinned people who were taking over her green and pleasant land where an englishwomans home really was her castle .

Ah my love of tolerant England ....No dogs No Blacks No Irish .... how things change eh:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[LittleGrizzly]

I would call the comment on the archbishop nothing you can use to view our land as being taken over by 'them'.

to clarify williams was supporting the use of sharia law in the case of a dispute between muslims and only if both the parties requested it, my understanding was even then it would have to work within the confines of british law, so seen as it is something that only affects muslims, and only those who wish it to effect them then i really see no negative effects...

Those Muslims, always trying to impress their foreign values on US, they have no respect of understanding of my nations ancient past.

Almost everyone tries to impose thier values on everyone else (even if thier value is freedom of values ironically enough) The muslims aren't the only religion with extreme views, check out the "immodest woman" thread, about the actions of extreme jews and navaros views in the thread are a bit different from the norm, all these people try and impose thier values in a similar way to extremist mulsims, thier usually fairly similar views as well, but it doesn't stop there, as i said everyone to a point does it, whether its atheists trying to keep god out of science class or whatever...

Also your almost enforcing your own value set in your past, a value set you imagine of a past britian where things where done properly, to me a young briton your sets of values may be old and ineffective for the modern world, your value system (from your op at least) seems to indicate dislike of change and nostalgia for the way it is, or nostalgia for the way it seemed to be

[Incongruous]

What I wrote was an attempt to captivate the nature of this issue I have, its reactionary and unthinking nature. I can identify these yet Such thought patterns still continue to dominate my minds at some moments.

I did state that my visions of England in such moments were idyllic and a product of my overbearing need for escapism. It's like, I hate the idea of an enforced class system, a non-democratic government, constant violence and the lack of flushing toilets. But why should that stand in the way of my beloved England? That is the kind of reasoning I go through sometimes, it's scary because it completely overtakes me, I can't seem to help it.

[Tribesman]

What I wrote was an attempt to captivate the nature of this issue I have, its reactionary and unthinking nature. I can identify these yet Such thought patterns still continue to dominate my minds at some moments.

Thats the human mind for ya , flawed .
You have the normal conflict between the concious and subconscious mind .
You work it so the conscious mind thinks over the subconcious .
Some don't , they have the constant bombardment of for example "its the Muslims" and it takes hold even though rational thought shows it to be nonsense .
For an example , how do you feel about people with ginger hair ?
What are the reasons for it ?
Well they is ginger ain't they ginger people are ..errrr...well they are ginger , look at that Chris Evans , a perfect example of how annoying them gingers are , if they had their way thay would takeover the whole media circus , something really has tobe done about them gingers because ...well because they are ginger .

[LittleGrizzly]

For an example , how do you feel about people with ginger hair ?

The spice girls are a good example here...

Ginger people make crap music
sporty people make crap music
black people make crap music
snobs, rich or posh people make crap music
baby faced people make crap music

or generalisations are crap.....

[PanzerJaeger]

Embrace your feelings and be true to yourself. Don't let anyone else shame you.

[Tribesman]

Embrace your feelings and be true to yourself. Don't let anyone else shame you.
A translation of that in this perpective is ..... don't think .

[Rhyfelwyr]

For an example , how do you feel about people with ginger hair ?
What are the reasons for it ?
Well they is ginger ain't they ginger people are ..errrr...well they are ginger , look at that Chris Evans , a perfect example of how annoying them gingers are , if they had their way thay would takeover the whole media circus , something really has tobe done about them gingers because ...well because they are ginger .

:embarassed:

[CountArach]

Is this a product of my love of England and it's history? How can modern developments not anger others like they do me without them finding they have become closet racists, or bigots?
Because they are more willing to adapt to the changing conditions than you are, from what I can see. You seem to have the image of a Victorian-era England that was largely idealised by the British themselves. Seeking to get back to this is bound to occur in some people, such as yourself, though often these people are Reactionaries rather than simply conservative. If you are unwilling to change and accept what your country has become, then of course you are going to be like this. Seeking someone to blame (You mention numerous peoples in your post, including - rather bizarrely - the left-wing of politics - though NewLab is not in fact left-wing.) is going to happen and what better target than the very people causing you to feel this way? Its just a downward spiral.

So the obvious answer to what you should do if you don't want to be a racist - accept that this change is inevitable and your idea of your country is greatly outdated.

[Viking]

I did state that my visions of England in such moments were idyllic and a product of my overbearing need for escapism. It's like, I hate the idea of an enforced class system, a non-democratic government, constant violence and the lack of flushing toilets. But why should that stand in the way of my beloved England? That is the kind of reasoning I go through sometimes, it's scary because it completely overtakes me, I can't seem to help it.

A country is much of an illusion. They've always been made up of people with quite different thoughts of how it should work. The association that the name of a country gives, is a romanticised version of it that does not exist in reality. A country is an idea more than anything else.

Furthermore, the past was not static. The idea of what's England has changed, as with any country, a lot through up years...Once there was no England at all; it is not older than; say, 1100 years or there about. Yet the geography has always been there.

A few points to consider, perhaps..

[Ignoramus]

I fully sympathise with Bopa. While I'm Australian, I have a great love of England and it's history and culture. It's being destroyed through the mushed up multiculturalism. Sure, celebrate where you come from, but learn that when in England, do as the English do, or at least what England was 50 years ago.

[Adrian II]

I feel much the same as Bopa, with this difference that I loathe many of my fellow Dutchmen as much as I loathe 'them'. I feel cheated by modernity, by its irreverent, hysterical and totally unnecessary pace of change. Let me give some examples. I feel that parts of my personal history were 'stolen' from me because most of the buildings that surround me are younger than myself. I loathe the unrestrained market economy of today that destroys values and meaningful places in society such as post offices and pubs, old-fashioned day markets, small shops, public transport etcetera. I loathe the insane haste and so-called flexibility of today that reduces people to trained rabbits performing tricks for anonymous corporations in exchange for carrots. I loathe today's 'victim' culture where values are derived from real or imagined wrongs, suffering and death instead of from healthy criteria like quality and capability, intelligence, honesty and courage.

And I realise that many of 'them' suffer as much from these modern phenomena as I myself do. Some of the reasons why 'they' don't accept 'our' way of life are very sound, even if their alternatives are not always palatable. To name an example: I recall some fine meals in very basic restaurants in remote parts of the world where the toilets were of the non-flushing type Bopa mentioned and therefore usually unspeakable dirty, yet the food, the hospitality, friendship and general atmosphere were far, far preferable to those in squeaky clean Holland.

I am not set in my views like Bopa seems to be. I am torn by these developments and I hope they don't consume me, in the sense that I will be the last man on earth who appreciates books. Or a lazy day off doing nothing, just nothing at all, because I am human and can afford to live on the surplus created by my society and not be productive for a day.

[HoreTore]

I welcome any and all foreign cultures who wants to replace our own. God knows that no matter what happens, it cannot be worse than the norwegian culture...

[Andres]

I feel cheated by modernity, by its irreverent, hysterical and totally unnecessary pace of change. Let me give some examples. I feel that parts of my personal history were 'stolen' from me because most of the buildings that surround me are younger than myself. I loathe the unrestrained market economy of today that destroys values and meaningful places in society such as post offices and pubs, old-fashioned day markets, small shops, public transport etcetera. I loathe the insane haste and so-called flexibility of today that reduces people to trained rabbits performing tricks for anonymous corporations in exchange for carrots. I loathe today's 'victim' culture where values are derived from real or imagined wrongs, suffering and death instead of from healthy criteria like quality and capability, intelligence, honesty and courage.



:inquisitive:

It's scary to see somebody else posting exactly how I feel about our modern day society.

[JR-]

what i need is a word that describes a specific form of xenophobia that applies only to that breed of johnny foreigner that expects to set up shop in blighty and yet insists on maintaining cultural baggage incompatible with that of the 'natives'.

i have no problem with albanians* being albanian in albania, but when they decide to settle in britain i expect them to do their best to conform to british cultural norms where their own would appear to be greatly at odds with ours.

for example:
honour killings
burning alive the widow of a deceased husband (not saying its ever happened in britain)
female genital mutilation
death for apostacy

what i particularly take issue with is immigrants abusing british citizenship by way facilitating criminal enterprise, e.g. albanian mafia who run smuggle people/guns/drugs into britain from their benighted homeland, not only should they face criminal sanction but revocation of citizenship. likewise there should be a year long period of grace for an applicant of british citizenship whereby any un-provoked criminal offence should lead to deportation.

what really doesn't bother me is the colour of someones skin, we have been importing johnny foreigner into blighty (a hindi word for "foreign lands" used in reference to britain) for countless generations, and the vast majority have become british, some even more so than the british themselves.
hooray for them i say, i will happily be your neighbour.

the legitimate problem people have with immigration stems from two things:
1) multi-culti claptrap - not expecting people to become british, just an albanian in a foreign land.
2) uncontrolled immigration - resulting in those unreconstructed albanians forming albanian enclaves within british communities.

A typical friday night for me will include fifteen or so friends, two of whom are polish, four are finnish, and one is french, (on the fringe or this group is another french, two spanish, a german, a greek, some more poles, and a hungarian), and you know what i like it this way, keeps life interesting to be constantly surrounded by viewpoints informed by different social/cultural backgrounds. Having said that not one of them is a gun-running mafioso, nor too do they believe in the value of honour killings, so i am a happy bunny.

Ditch multi-culti rubbish and actually control immigration and we will all be happy, yes even the poor council-estate white families that feel compelled to vote BNP because no-one else will listen to their problems.

* the use of albanians in the following example is chosen randomly and completely interchangeable with some other nation

[CountArach]

the legitimate problem people have with immigration stems from two things:
1) multi-culti claptrap - not expecting people to become british, just an albanians in a foreign land.
Why is that so unreasonable?

[Viking]

I feel much the same as Bopa, with this difference that I loathe many of my fellow Dutchmen as much as I loathe 'them'. I feel cheated by modernity, by its irreverent, hysterical and totally unnecessary pace of change. Let me give some examples. I feel that parts of my personal history were 'stolen' from me because most of the buildings that surround me are younger than myself. I loathe the unrestrained market economy of today that destroys values and meaningful places in society such as post offices and pubs, old-fashioned day markets, small shops, public transport etcetera. I loathe the insane haste and so-called flexibility of today that reduces people to trained rabbits performing tricks for anonymous corporations in exchange for carrots. I loathe today's 'victim' culture where values are derived from real or imagined wrongs, suffering and death instead of from healthy criteria like quality and capability, intelligence, honesty and courage.

And I realise that many of 'them' suffer as much from these modern phenomena as I myself do. Some of the reasons why 'they' don't accept 'our' way of life are very sound, even if their alternatives are not always palatable. To name an example: I recall some fine meals in very basic restaurants in remote parts of the world where the toilets were of the non-flushing type Bopa mentioned and therefore usually unspeakable dirty, yet the food, the hospitality, friendship and general atmosphere were far, far preferable to those in squeaky clean Holland.

I am not set in my views like Bopa seems to be. I am torn by these developments and I hope they don't consume me, in the sense that I will be the last man on earth who appreciates books. Or a lazy day off doing nothing, just nothing at all, because I am human and can afford to live on the surplus created by my society and not be productive for a day.

I wonder if the inhabitants of the first civilisations ever expressed similiar views. :coffeenews:

"It's too crowded"

[JR-]

because honour killings etc are not acceptable in britain.

"do their best to conform to british cultural norms where their own would appear to be greatly at odds with ours."

[PBI]

Immigrants are required to obey the law. I've yet to see or hear anyone suggesting that honour killings should be made legal.

Assuming immigrants do obey the law however, what's so wrong with "live and let live"?

[Husar]

Thats the human mind for ya , flawed .
You have the normal conflict between the concious and subconscious mind .
You work it so the conscious mind thinks over the subconcious .
Some don't , they have the constant bombardment of for example "its the Muslims" and it takes hold even though rational thought shows it to be nonsense .
For an example , how do you feel about people with ginger hair ?
What are the reasons for it ?
Well they is ginger ain't they ginger people are ..errrr...well they are ginger , look at that Chris Evans , a perfect example of how annoying them gingers are , if they had their way thay would takeover the whole media circus , something really has tobe done about them gingers because ...well because they are ginger .

I have these conflicts very often, you explain them very well. :2thumbsup:

[Banquo's Ghost]

... i expect them to do their best to conform to british cultural norms where their own would appear to be greatly at odds with ours.

for example:
honour killings
burning alive the widow of a deceased husband (not saying its ever happened in britain)
female genital mutilation
death for apostacy

what i particularly t.....

What about wilful refusal to capitalise the noble English language correctly and in line with established tradition? :wink:

Isn't Grumpy-Old-Man Syndrome fun?

[Tribesman]

I have these conflicts very often, you explain them very well.
Yes but I do believe that there is a certain scotsman here who didn't like the example .
I suppose that despite being a scotsman in scotland where there are lots of gingers he still has to put up with the irrational anti ginger prejudice .

[KukriKhan]

To give an american (albeit, personal) perspective: over here we ask for immigration. The various nationalities who arrive on our shores usually encounter culture-shock, as do we already-arrived ones; eventually, everyone more or less gets along, and what it means to be "american" changes slightly along the way. Despite initial resistance, the 'melting pot' theory does actually work.

But that's us. And racial/cultural prejudice is easily documentable over here - so I'm not saying it's all hunky-dory perfect. Just that, in the long run, it works. For us.

But, for you guys elsewhere, whose nations weren't founded on immigrant-acceptance: why give up a desire for Dutch to remain Dutch, Irish to remain Irish, German to remain German, Chinese to remain Chinese. You don't have to imitate the american experiment, and trying to do so, given your different history and culture, might 'kill' your unique German-ness, English-ness, Belgian-ness, Ethiopian-ness. Why is that necessary?

I see no problem with insisting that immigrants to your lands assimilate to the prevailing culture.

[HoreTore]

I see no problem with insisting that immigrants to your lands assimilate to the prevailing culture.

Because if we decided a thousand years ago that we should lock ourselves up and never let our culture change, we wouldn't have the culture we have now...

[JR-]

Immigrants are required to obey the law. I've yet to see or hear anyone suggesting that honour killings should be made legal.

Assuming immigrants do obey the law however, what's so wrong with "live and let live"?

nothing to me, but i am affluent middle-class and don't live in an inner city.

you might want to ask the white inner-city working-class why they feel they have no option but to vote BNP when generations of habituated family instinct is for them to vote labour.

[JR-]

What about wilful refusal to capitalise the noble English language correctly and in line with established tradition? :wink:


:clown:

[Devastatin Dave]

LOL, we need a "White Guilt" thread where we can put all these "I feel guilty because I'm unconfortable with the way my society is being destrowed by invaders who want me to become them or I will definitely suffer or be branded rasist" threads so that Tribes and the like can belittle the true feeling of people. Jesus Christ, this is nothing to feel shame about. A country is defined by its langauge, borders, and culture. When you have a bunch of weak-kneed, one world girly men or butch lesbos running your part of the world, expect your extinction and expect your children to suffer after you because no one took the time in their time in history to run their hands up their inner thigh and find their rasin sack to do anything. We're :daisy:d for sure, what a pathetic geration!!! Churchill is spinning.

[JR-]

To give an american (albeit, personal) perspective: over here we ask for immigration. The various nationalities who arrive on our shores usually encounter culture-shock, as do we already-arrived ones; eventually, everyone more or less gets along, and what it means to be "american" changes slightly along the way. Despite initial resistance, the 'melting pot' theory does actually work.

But that's us. And racial/cultural prejudice is easily documentable over here - so I'm not saying it's all hunky-dory perfect. Just that, in the long run, it works. For us.

But, for you guys elsewhere, whose nations weren't founded on immigrant-acceptance: why give up a desire for Dutch to remain Dutch, Irish to remain Irish, German to remain German, Chinese to remain Chinese. You don't have to imitate the american experiment, and trying to do so, given your different history and culture, might 'kill' your unique German-ness, English-ness, Belgian-ness, Ethiopian-ness. Why is that necessary?

I see no problem with insisting that immigrants to your lands assimilate to the prevailing culture.

america does have the benefit of a population density at least an order or magnitude less than britain. outlooks really do change when you live in each others pockets, as evidenced by japanese dislike of the google spy-cars roaming japan, they are simply viewed as inappropriately intrusive.

[HoreTore]

america does have the benefit of a population density at least an order or magnitude less than britain. outlooks really do change when you live in each others pockets, as evidenced by japanese dislike of the google spy-cars roaming japan, they are simply viewed as inappropriately intrusive.

Kinda like New York...?

[JR-]

Kinda like New York...?

congrats,

you picked out a one-of-kind city that virtually defines itself on its history of being the first port of call for nearly 500 years of non-stop immigration.

which stands in sharp contrast to hundreds of small rural towns up and down the UK that all of a sudden find they are host to a very large population of johnny foreigner.

how relevant.

[Tribesman]

We're :daisy:'d for sure, what a pathetic geration!!! Churchill is spinning.
What Churchill would that be ?
Would that be the fella whose family had to leave their own country because people in their own land thought their views didn't belong there , and then faced hostility in their new land because they didn't fit in there either , and then faced more hostility in another new land because they ain't quite native don't ya know and have funny religeous habits .
Hmmmmm...Dave talking bollox again :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[HoreTore]

congrats,

you picked out a one-of-kind city that virtually defines itself on its history of being the first port of call for nearly 500 years of non-stop immigration.

which stands in sharp contrast to hundreds of small rural towns up and down the UK that all of a sudden find they are host to a very large population of johnny foreigner.

how relevant.

So, the answer then is to shuffle immigrants all over the UK for another 500 years, right? ~;)

[rvg]

Ahhh, the old world with its old world problems and pointless bickering over nothing. I would echo Kukri here and say that the good old US of A has gotten the whole assimilation thing right. Obey the law, make no trouble, remember that you're not entitled to anything, and all will be well. Wanna learn English? Great. Don't wanna learn English but can somehow function without it? Great. Don't wanna learn English and can't function without it? Learn English. Wanna Wear a turban/burqa/hijab/whatever? Go ahead. Nobody cares. Don't wanna be photographed for driver's license? Fine. Walk. Wanna kill your daughter to preserve family honor? Well, that's life in prison, unless you're in Texas.
Long story short, the American society does not oblige the newcomers to blend in, but at the same time the society feels absolutely no obligation to accomodate the newcomers. It's sink or swim, the ultimate self-regulating and self-correcting system that works beautifully. Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever work in the old world.

[Viking]

Ahhh, the old world with its old world problems and pointless bickering over nothing. I would echo Kukri here and say that the good old US of A has gotten the whole assimilation thing right. Obey the law, make no trouble, remember that you're not entitled to anything, and all will be well. Wanna learn English? Great. Don't wanna learn English but can somehow function without it? Great. Don't wanna learn English and can't function without it? Learn English. Wanna Wear a turban/burqa/hijab/whatever? Go ahead. Nobody cares. Don't wanna be photographed for driver's license? Fine. Walk. Wanna kill your daughter to preserve family honor? Well, that's life in prison, unless you're in Texas.
Long story short, the American society does not oblige the newcomers to blend in, but at the same time the society feels absolutely no obligation to accomodate the newcomers. It's sink or swim, the ultimate self-regulating and self-correcting system that works beautifully. Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever work in the old world.

Which is how it works in Europe too, surprise.

[JR-]

So, the answer then is to shuffle immigrants all over the UK for another 500 years, right? ~;)

not unless you want to see the BNP vote in small rural towns go through the roof as it has done in the inner cities.

as i said earlier, i am fine with my 50% foreign friend ratio, but i recognise that many others in britain are not.

[Adrian II]

Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever work in the old world.Ahh, the old view of the New World. You have no idea what sort of immigration the Old World has seen in the past twenty-five years. Proportionately, my country beats yours by a mile when it comes to numbers of (recent) immigrants. Here is what the U.S. Census Bureau says:


The number of immigrants living in the United States has more than tripled since 1970, from 9.6 million to 28.4 million. As a percentage of the U.S. population, immigrants have more than doubled, from 4.7 percent in 1970 to 10.4 percent in 2000.For comparison: Spain received 3 million immigrants from Northern Africa and Latin America alone in just the past six years.

In The Netherlands the figure is now well over 3 million immigrants, or roughly one-fifth of the population.

Next time, read up a bit and get a grasp of the issue before you pretend to tell others what's what.

[rvg]

In The Netherlands the figure is now well over 3 million immigrants, or roughly one-fifth of the population.


You see...this is exactly the problem. 3 million is *not* the number of recent immigrants to The Netherlands, it's the total population living in there who is not ethnically Dutch. Out of those 50% are of non-European origin. You seem to be making no distinction whatsoever about who was born in Netherlands to non-Dutch parents. Black, white, Christian, muslim, anything non-Dutch is lumped together in one big pile of rejects who come in and refuse to assimilate. That is a very misleading statistic if you could even call it a statistic.

[Adrian II]

You see...this is exactly the problem. 3 million is *not* the number of recent immigrants to The Netherlands, it's the total population living in there who is not ethnically Dutch. Out of those 50% are of non-European origin. You seem to be making no distinction whatsoever about who was born in Netherlands to non-Dutch parents. Black, white, Christian, muslim, anything non-Dutch is lumped together in one big pile of rejects who come in and refuse to assimilate. That is a very misleading statistic if you could even call it a statistic.Rejects? Refuse to assimilate? You are going from nonsensical to absurd if you think I complain about immigration, after what I posted in this thread this afternoon.

The over three million immigrants I quoted are mostly integrated just fine, which makes my country more of an immigration country than yours. That's my point. You have 20 million Spanish-speaking Americans (half of the total) who don't speak a word of English. The die-hard non-Dutch speakers among our immigrants are a minority.

[rvg]

The over three million immigrants I quoted are mostly integrated just fine, which makes my country more of an immigration country than yours. That's my point. You have 20 million Spanish-speaking Americans (half of the total) who don't speak a word of English. The die-hard non-Dutch speakers among our immigrants are a minority.

Okay, if you say so. Judging by the amount of crying coming from Netherlands over the immigration issues the "just fine" description did not enter my mind. Anyway, if things are indeed "just fine" then I have clearly misunderstood your post, and for that I apologize.

[Craterus]

I think most people don't have a problem with immigrants until they are asked to change their ways to accomodate to the sensitivities of their visitors.

That's my position anyway.

[Adrian II]

Okay, if you say so. Judging by the amount of crying coming from Netherlands over the immigration issues the "just fine" description did not enter my mind. Anyway, if things are indeed "just fine" then I have clearly misunderstood your post, and for that I apologize.The cyring is over the contingent that is not integrated at all (nor speaking Dutch, introducing 'alien' customs as if in were their country of origin) or too well integrated (young Moroccan thugs and street robbers).

I appreciate your apology, it is refreshing to see such good manners upheld in this forum. The respect is mutual.
:bow:

[Incongruous]

Adrian has best summed up my feelings here, although as he said, mine are more ingrained, more reactionary. Just to clarify I have not stopped talking to my friends (nearly all of whom are Tamil or Mandarin), I seem to project these feelings towards an unknown group, faceless and as yet only generally defined. CA, this is what I mean when I conceive the enemy to be liberal-lefties, as I stated I myself cannot properly define them. I convince myself that they are there, in the vicinity of the Guardian. It is strange, because I use to love the Guardian, I suppose this is a thread in which we may attempt to discover the psychological forms and roots of racism, why is it so reactionary? Is this reactionary form of racist thought a modern phenomenon? Why do I link it to a percieved loss of national identity?
Is this an inevitable consequence of certain people (such as myself) living in a modern society? What must be done?

[rvg]

The cyring is over the contingent that is not integrated at all (nor speaking Dutch, introducing 'alien' customs

Yeah, those alien customs. In Michigan where I happen to reside there's a town aptly named Holland. In that town there's a large proportion of population with too many repeating vowels in their last names and unhealthy attraction towards tulips and windmills. In fact, every year (in June I believe) for a whole week they put on their wooden shoes, sing songs in a very unfamiliar language, and sell lots of candy and tulips. Good for business though, and lots of fun in general... Oh , and don't get me started on those Wisconsinites with their funny accent and that nasty excuse for fish dish called Lutefisk. If I had to choose between eating lutefisk and chewing glass I'd have to pause and think about it.

Anyway, I guess my point is that America itself does not have a dominant culture in a traditional sense. Every single group that ever settled in the States has added to the overall American cultural mix, which is why I think that newcomers in America can feel very much at hope, because if they look, they can see traces of their own culture in the overall mix.

[Adrian II]

Yeah, those alien customs. In Michigan where I happen to reside there's a town aptly named Holland. In that town there's a large proportion of population with too many repeating vowels in their last names and unhealthy attraction towards tulips and windmills. In fact, every year (in June I believe) for a whole week they put on their wooden shoes, sing songs in a very unfamiliar language, and sell lots of candy and tulips. Good for business though, and lots of fun in general... Oh , and don't get me started on those Wisconsinites with their funny accent and that nasty excuse for fish dish called Lutefisk. If I had to choose between eating lutefisk and chewing glass I'd have to pause and think about it.

Anyway, I guess my point is that America itself does not have a dominant culture in a traditional sense. Every single group that ever settled in the States has added to the overall American cultural mix, which is why I think that newcomers in America can feel very much at hope, because if they look, they can see traces of their own culture in the overall mix.Still missing the point, my friend. Those Dutchmen in Michigan put on wooden shoes and sell tulips for a week every year? Our compatriots of Turkish origin sell their delicious döner all year round and we all eat it. Like we all eat shoarma, brought here simultaneously by Egyptians and Israelis in the 1970's. Or pizza, brought by Italian immigrants in the 1960's. Dutch kids learn Turkish dances and Surinamese birthday songs in school. Every wave or trickle became part and parcel of Dutch society: Jews, Indonesians, Chinese, Italians and Greeks, Surinamese, Moroccans, heck, even Americna gays. They all contribute, they all have produced politicians and artists, tv personalities and entertainers. One of our most popular entertainers of the moment is Najib Amhali. Typical Dutchman, by the way...

[Tribesman]

Our compatriots of Turkish origin sell their delicious döner all year round and we all eat it. Like we all eat shoarma, brought here simultaneously by Egyptians and Israelis in the 1970's. Or pizza, brought by Italian immigrants in the 1960's. Dutch kids learn Turkish dances and Surinamese birthday songs in school. Every wave or trickle became part and parcel of Dutch society: Jews, Indonesians, Chinese, Italians and Greeks, Surinamese, Moroccans, heck, even Americna gays.
See thats exactly the problem , them sneaky immigrant bastards ciosying up with the locals and carching them unawares .
Oh it might start off with singing a few birthday songs or doing a funny dance but if you don't nip[ it in the bud you will soon find your daughter coming home with female circumcision .
Churchill would be spinning in his grave .:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Fragony]

Still missing the point, my friend. Those Dutchmen in Michigan put on wooden shoes and sell tulips for a week every year? Our compatriots of Turkish origin sell their delicious döner all year round and we all eat it. Like we all eat shoarma, brought here simultaneously by Egyptians and Israelis in the 1970's. Or pizza, brought by Italian immigrants in the 1960's. Dutch kids learn Turkish dances and Surinamese birthday songs in school. Every wave or trickle became part and parcel of Dutch society: Jews, Indonesians, Chinese, Italians and Greeks, Surinamese, Moroccans, heck, even Americna gays. They all contribute, they all have produced politicians and artists, tv personalities and entertainers. One of our most popular entertainers of the moment is Najib Amhali. Typical Dutchman, by the way...

Oh boy somebody hold me down

Anyways, I like to call it the self-denying prophecy, somewhere we got programmed with the thought that all change is for the better. As we are now, it just isn't, it's as good as it gets. The curse that is convenience, that is the sickness of today. We get bored, we become stupid.


I think most people don't have a problem with immigrants until they are asked to change their ways to accomodate to the sensitivities of their visitors.

That's my position anyway.

^---that

[InsaneApache]

Are we all to be racist now? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4mUQf3dNxk)

:laugh4:

[Tribesman]

Perfect Apache
However does it adress them racist idiots that might say "I ain't got nothing against the black welfare sucking bastards because I don't do that racist stuff because my wife is asian and she doesn't have the same skin colour as me so if I moan about the really dark skinned people it can't be racism ."

[Craterus]

^---that

What about it?

[Justiciar]

Perfect Apache
However does it adress them racist idiots that might say "I ain't got nothing against the black welfare sucking bastards because I don't do that racist stuff because my wife is asian and she doesn't have the same skin colour as me so if I moan about the really dark skinned people it can't be racism ."
It's people who start sentances with; "I'm not a racist, but.." that always tickled me.

[JR-]

well in theory my post would fit into that category, does anyone want to try and deconstruct my comments into subconscious racist remark?

[Incongruous]

Perfect Apache
However does it adress them racist idiots that might say "I ain't got nothing against the black welfare sucking bastards because I don't do that racist stuff because my wife is asian and she doesn't have the same skin colour as me so if I moan about the really dark skinned people it can't be racism ."

Well, they are obviously not real racists then, true?
They just seem to be generalising bigoted idiots, I mean is someone does have black friends but says things in a negative way about Africans on welfare, generally, does that make them racist?

[Tribesman]

Well, they are obviously not real racists then, true?
They just seem to be generalising bigoted idiots, I mean is someone does have black friends but says things in a negative way about Africans on welfare, generally, does that make them racist? Isn't "genralising bigoted idiots" pretty much the text book definition of racist .

[Hax]

Still, might I point out that what Bopa is pointing out here is clearly discrimination, not racism.

[PBI]

As a lefty liberal (and for my sins, occasional Guardian reader), allow me to give my honest viewpoint on this issue and what I think are the reasons for it, as I feel Bopa has been refreshingly open about his own opinions and feelings.

My default position, on this and most other issues, is "live and let live". I don't think it's a good idea to interfere in other people's lives unless there is a compelling reason to. Thus, although some people will accuse me of having my head buried in the sand (or elsewhere), I simply can't get upset about immigration simply because no one has yet presented any compelling arguments for why I should.

The problem is, the way the anti-immigration lobby come across to me is as being motivated mostly by fear, usually of some great faceless and poorly-defined entity such as Bopa describes as "THEM". "THEM" are always described as doing all sorts of nasty sounding but vaguely defined things such as "destroying our values" and "eroding our culture" without any real specifics about exactly how being given. The "evidence" presented is usually of the type suggested by Bopa in his OP, the story about Sharia law in Britain; the headline conjures up all sorts of horrible emotive images of public stoning of adulterers in Trafalgar Square, but when you actually read the article it turns out the change suggested by the archbishop would not undermine British law and would have no effect on anyone who didn't specifically ask for it.

To me, this sort of thing seems to bear all the halmarks of a conspiracy theory. It seems as though people have convinced themselves that there is a great faceless army of immigrants conspiring with the fifth columnist multicultural elite to turn the UK into Islamic theocracy. And like all good conspiracy theorists they seem to see evidence of conspiracy everywhere, in the most innocuous of news items. When I question the "evidence" presented or ask for clarification or justification I am usually either accused of being an idiot or in on the conspiracy.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case, nor that it is true for all of those whose question the wisdom of uncontrolled immigration. And I'm not at all sure it has anything to do with true racism so much as xenophobia. I'm simply saying that this is how the anti-immigration argument comes across to people like me, which is why it does not persuade me. If people were to come up with some more specific arguments about how immigration "erodes our culture", and how it impacts upon my ability to live my life exactly how I wish within the confines of the law, I might be more convinced. Calling me an idiot for not accepting every headline I read at face value is not going to get it done.


Oh and, @InsaneApache: Thanks for that clip, it brightened up my day; Father Ted is one of those series which I always forget just how funny it is.

[LittleGrizzly]

PBI, that summed up my feelings on the anti-immigration lobby as well, very often they appear as little more than racists trying to shout louder than everyone else, or idiots that don't know what they are on about, Daily Mail being a perfect example of both.

That father ted clip was hysterical, the top result in related videos is the build up, and is even funnier!! Father ted was one of my favourites as a child... still is...

[JR-]

i think you are being a little broad brush in your categorisation of one side.

i am not anti-immigration, i am anti-uncontrolled-immigration, yet that seems to an invisible distinction.

[LittleGrizzly]

Its not that i think all people who don't want too much immigration are racists or idiots, its that that side of the debate often seems to be lead by the BNP and the Daily Mail, they shout, swear and flail themselves about like idiots and im left thinking 'if this is their side of the debate then i must be on the right side of the debate over here'

[PBI]

i think you are being a little broad brush in your categorisation of one side.


Quite possibly. In fact, it's quite possible that I am engaging in the same broad generalisations of large diverse groups that we are all quick to condemn. I wasn't necessarily saying my views are right, I was simply stating what they are and how I come to hold them, much like Bopa's intention with his original post.


i am not anti-immigration, i am anti-uncontrolled-immigration, yet that seems to an invisible distinction.

I understand the difference, but as far as I can tell they seem to simply be different solutions to the same percieved problem.

[JR-]

there is indeed a problem, the evidence of which is the meteoric rise in support for the BNP especially in inner-city working class areas.

this is not normal. this is britain, we don't do extreme.

[HoreTore]

there is indeed a problem, the evidence of which is the meteoric rise in support for the BNP especially in inner-city working class areas.

this is not normal. this is britain, we don't do extreme.

Meteoric rise? I'll check back when they're actually nearing power. I don't really care about parties who doesn't even have the support of a few percent of the population. And I certainly won't try accommodating them.

[LittleGrizzly]

I wouldn't put that down to immigration alone though, it is in part due to some people being disillusioned with the main partys for various reasons, one being some people don't think the main parties take immigration seriously, another being new labour and conservatives being so similar people look for something different (there not much more different than BNP) another side of the issue is a paper like the daily mail spreading vicious lies about immigrants, being a fairly well read paper there have to be quite a few people out there who buy into its constant lies, it wouldn't surprise me if the daily mail has directly influenced people to vote for BNP with its false propaganda..

[PBI]

there is indeed a problem, the evidence of which is the meteoric rise in support for the BNP especially in inner-city working class areas.

Plenty of people believe the world was literally created in 7 days 6000 years ago, but that doesn't make it true. It's evidence that people think there's a problem, not evidence of the problem itself.

[HoreTore]

Plenty of people believe the world was literally created in 7 days 6000 years ago, but that doesn't make it true. It's evidence that people think there's a problem, not evidence of the problem itself.

And there are still plenty of people who believe that...

[JR-]

Plenty of people believe the world was literally created in 7 days 6000 years ago, but that doesn't make it true. It's evidence that people think there's a problem, not evidence of the problem itself.

how comforting it is to be above the petty misconceptions of the proles. *smiles beatifically*

[InsaneApache]

Meteoric rise? I'll check back when they're actually nearing power. I don't really care about parties who doesn't even have the support of a few percent of the population. And I certainly won't try accommodating them.

I can remember the NF, the BNP forerunner, getting around about 5 votes each in the elections. Now they have dozens of councillors and perhaps a chance at an MP or two, so yes, it is meteroic. Due entirely to socialst claptrap about 'celebrating diversity' and other somesuch rubbish. The rise of the fascists is entirely down to socialism and it's discredited credo. Thanks a bunch, cretins.

[yesdachi]

Uncontrolled immigration seems to be the real problem in Europe.

The fact that many of the immigrants have such a different culture doesn’t help either.

Personally, I think having a splash of another culture is fun as long as I can relate.


I knew foreign exchange students in high school that were from Norway and Sweden and they were fun to talk to about our differences
I had a classmate from Korea that was fun to talk to about our differences
I had a Bosnian neighbor for a while and it was fun to talk to him about our differences
My daycare provider was Russian and it was fun to talk to her family about our differences
A coworker is an Aussie and she was fun to talk to about our differences
Another coworker was English and she was fun to talk to about the differences
My sister in law is Latino and she is even fun to talk to about the cultural differences

But I have a real difficult time even talking to some people whose fundamental beliefs are so opposite of mine. Their treatment of women and the thought that I am some kind of infidel just makes me not want to be nice to them. And even other cultures that don’t follow a religion that would like to see me dead are still so fiercely opposed to the “western way” that they intentionally do things, in spite of common sense, that keep them from fitting in. I don’t get it and I don’t like it and I wont spend time around people that are like that.

[LittleGrizzly]

Due entirely to socialst claptrap about 'celebrating diversity' and other somesuch rubbish. The rise of the fascists is entirely down to socialism and it's discredited credo. Thanks a bunch, cretins.

You give socailism far too much credit, it is the greedy racists that run the daily mail and the people with absolutley no common sense that buy it that help the BNP, far far more than socailists ever could...

I think you'll find the reason they are doing better as well is because these days they have upgraded thier image and pertend not be racist, also they have been winning minority votes and decided to concentrate thier hatred on muslims, thank 9/11 and various atrocities for that one, again thank the daily mail for helping peddling this hatred and making it mainstream and acceptable.

Another one to blame would be labour and conservatives for cloning each other, people vote BNP because they are different from the two clones

So if you want someone to blame look at the racists on the right like the enoch powells and the daily mails, how dare you try and shift the blame!

BNP nearly have an MP or 2 ?!? last i checked there were a long distance from winning any parlimentary seats..

[rvg]

...But I have a real difficult time even talking to some people whose fundamental beliefs are so opposite of mine. Their treatment of women and the thought that I am some kind of infidel just makes me not want to be nice to them. And even other cultures that don’t follow a religion that would like to see me dead are still so fiercely opposed to the “western way” that they intentionally do things, in spite of common sense, that keep them from fitting in. I don’t get it and I don’t like it and I wont spend time around people that are like that.

Europe has brought this unto itself by ultra-liberalising itself, forgetting about its Christian roots, and fully succumbing to the doctrine of political correctness... Too much. too fast. Obligating the locals to change their ways in favor of newcomers is just plain wrong. Good thing something like this won't fly in America, except maybe in the People's Republic of California. Reminds me of a funny story about some ultra-conservative muslim group setting up shop in the heart of rural Texas, buying up a bunch of land, building a huge mosque, etc, etc. Anyway, they managed to piss off a local farmer whose land bordered theirs from three sides. So, he got upset and switched from raising cows to raising pigs....LOTS of pigs. Everywhere. And even went as far as organising weekly pig races. On Fridays. Anyway, muslims complained incessantly, but the judge repeatedly told them to mind their own business and always sided with the farmer.

[Viking]

Uncontrolled

It is?


Their treatment of women and the thought that I am some kind of infidel just makes me not want to be nice to them.

They do think like that? You never enocunter people with similar thoughts from your own nation?




Too much. too fast. Obligating the locals to change their ways in favor of newcomers is just plain wrong.

What, where and when?

[LittleGrizzly]

Everyone talks of making locals accomadate immigrants but where is the actual proof of this, the example i commonly hear banded around 'sharia law in UK' is well known rubbish, im just wondering what lesser known rubbish people are basing this off ?

[rvg]

didn't the Archbishop of Canterbury speak in favor of sharia?

[JR-]

So if you want someone to blame look at the racists on the right like the enoch powells and the daily mails, how dare you try and shift the blame!


was enoch powell a racialist?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/06/do0607.xml&page=1

[LittleGrizzly]

What the archbishop said (basically) was he would be happy for muslims to settle disputes using sharia law if they both agreed and aslong as it was legal within UK law, which i don't really see why anyone should be worried about... first off you don't have to use sharia law if you don't want to, secondly even if all partys agree to use sharia law nothing can happen that uk law wouldn't allow anyway, so no stonings or corporal punishment...

[HoreTore]

What the archbishop said (basically) was he would be happy for muslims to settle disputes using sharia law if they both agreed and aslong as it was legal within UK law, which i don't really see why anyone should be worried about... first off you don't have to use sharia law if you don't want to, secondly even if all partys agree to use sharia law nothing can happen that uk law wouldn't allow anyway, so no stonings or corporal punishment...

Indeed. That case is a very good example of dumb people commenting stuff they're clueless about yet again.

[rvg]

What the archbishop said (basically) was he would be happy for muslims to settle disputes using sharia law if they both agreed and aslong as it was legal within UK law, which i don't really see why anyone should be worried about... first off you don't have to use sharia law if you don't want to, secondly even if all partys agree to use sharia law nothing can happen that uk law wouldn't allow anyway, so no stonings or corporal punishment...

Any judgement handed down by a cleric instead of a judge in a secular country is a mockery of justice.

[LittleGrizzly]

Any judgement handed down by a cleric instead of a judge in a secular country is a mockery of justice.

Its not as if it can be done in the case of robbery or murder or any kind of crime against people, it is more geared towards the kind of disputes that are a waste of the courts time anyway, if some religious figure can decide whether next door has the right to paint his fence pink rather than waste taxpayer money thats great as far as im concerned, if you would rather every little dispute went to court when it could be mediated by someone instead you pay for it, i would rather we left our legal professionals to deal with real matters...

[rvg]

Its not as if it can be done in the case of robbery or murder or any kind of crime against people, it is more geared towards the kind of disputes that are a waste of the courts time anyway, if some religious figure can decide whether next door has the right to paint his fence pink rather than waste taxpayer money thats great as far as im concerned, if you would rather every little dispute went to court when it could be mediated by someone instead you pay for it, i would rather we left our legal professionals to deal with real matters...

It does not matter how small or insignificant the case is. As long as the decisionmaker is looking in the Koran instead of Civil/Criminal/Whatever Code to make his decision the decision will be flawed and unfair. The whole principle of applying different justice towards different kinds of people is wrong on too many levels, and the fact that it would not contradict British laws will not exonerate it in the slightest.

[InsaneApache]

Everyone talks of making locals accomadate immigrants but where is the actual proof of this, the example i commonly hear banded around 'sharia law in UK' is well known rubbish, im just wondering what lesser known rubbish people are basing this off ?

Ladies only swimming periods. Closed to males on the staff, including the manager. Attended entirely by Asians.

Pregnant women refused to have the sex of their unborn baby revealed to them. Why? Because some of the Asians would abort a female feotus but it would be illegal to just not tell the Asians, so they had to make it policy to not tell anyone, therefore having an effect on the indiginoius population.

Just two off the top of my head that happen in my city. It's no secret. Bloody socialsts!

[yesdachi]

It is?
From the complaining I hear my impression is that the influx of immigrants allover Europe is out of control.


They do think like that? You never enocunter people with similar thoughts from your own nation?


The difference is hardly comparable. There are haters and nutters all over the place but the quality of life for a female in the US or any “western” country is practically equal to a males. There is a class difference and a superiority complex associated with it in the US but I think it motivates a desire to disassociate from rather than label “infidel” and the class difference is limited to a small percentage rather than the entire religious populace.

[Viking]

From the complaining I hear my impression is that the influx of immigrants allover Europe is out of control.

Who has lost the control? The government? The people?


The difference is hardly comparable. There are haters and nutters all over the place but the quality of life for a female in the US or any “western” country is practically equal to a males. There is a class difference and a superiority complex associated with it in the US but I think it motivates a desire to disassociate from rather than label “infidel” and the class difference is limited to a small percentage rather than the entire religious populace.

That doesn't answer the first question which was in response to something that sounds much like a cheap generalisation of immigrants.

[yesdachi]

Who has lost the control? The government? The people?
Yes. Both. Neither. I don’t know but it sounds like there are a lot of immigrants and no one is real happy about it. The immigrants don’t like that their new home is not enough like their old one and the natives are unhappy that the immigrants don’t conform to their ways. To hear so many complaints would indicate someone must have let too many in, and since the natives are the ones complaining and they are also the ones with the keys I have to assume that they have lost control or they would have slowed or stopped the rush of newcomers. Do you think if the French were in control of their immigration they would have allowed the riots a few years ago? There are not fewer immigrants or complaints about them this year; I sense a serious lack of control. I could be wrong, am I wrong?

You European guys (another generalization) are practically living on top of each other, why let so many more people into your country? Because you are completely in control of the situation?

I am thinking of the I Love Lucy episode where Lucy and Ethel are working at the candy factory, they represent the natives and the candy represents the immigrants. The girls practically exhaust themselves to keep up and when asked if they are in control they brag that they are so the boss turns up the speed of the conveyor. Bring on the immigrants, you seem to be in control! NOT :laugh4:



That doesn't answer the first question which was in response to something that sounds much like a cheap generalisation of immigrants.
Nothing I do is cheap ~D but it was a generalization. I could detail my specific encounters with unfriendly immigrants but I don’t think it would help the discussion.

[PBI]

Ladies only swimming periods. Closed to males on the staff, including the manager. Attended entirely by Asians.

Pregnant women refused to have the sex of their unborn baby revealed to them. Why? Because some of the Asians would abort a female feotus but it would be illegal to just not tell the Asians, so they had to make it policy to not tell anyone, therefore having an effect on the indiginoius population.

Just two off the top of my head that happen in my city. It's no secret. Bloody socialsts!

Now that's more like it. Why can't people manage more of these actual arguments rather than the usual vague whining about "erosion of culture" and non-stories like the so-called Sharia law?

Although, that said:

Virtually every swimming pool I've ever been to advertises men's and women's only nights regardless of whether their customers are predominantly Asian. I know plenty of people who go to them who aren't Asian, I suspect it doesn't have so much to do with tiptoeing around cultural sensitivities as the fact that most people don't look too good with their tops off and don't feel to happy about having members of the opposite sex seeing their flabby bodies while they swim a few lengths. It's nothing to do with socialism, it's good old fashioned Thatcherite capitalism, there's a demand and the swimming pool is catering for it. I'm sorry if I don't seem too concerned that your "right" to oggle Asian women in their swimming costumes is being violated.

As for Asian women aborting female foetuses, we may find it distasteful in the extreme but my understanding is that so long as you're within the time limit and can get a doctor to agree to it you have the legal right to get an abortion for whatever stupid reason you want. That said, I'd be amazed if any doctor agreed to perform an abortion for such a frivolous reason, and if they went ahead and got an illegal abortion, they'd go to jail like anyone else. If you think that's wrong then it seems to me what you really have a beef with is the abortion laws; the fact that the matter happens to concern Asian women is incidental. In fact, by denying the women the ability to know the gender the hospital is doing anything but kow-towing to multiculturalism, it is forcing the women to integrate with our British values by denying them the chance to abort female babies (even though strictly speaking an ethnically British woman would have just as much right to do so).

So of your two stories: The first has nothing to do with immigration. The second is really an abortion issue rather than immigration but I admit the hospital is probably in the wrong, it should have just relied on its own doctors not to perform frivolous abortions and on the law to prosecute those who break the rules.

[Incongruous]

As a lefty liberal (and for my sins, occasional Guardian reader), allow me to give my honest viewpoint on this issue and what I think are the reasons for it, as I feel Bopa has been refreshingly open about his own opinions and feelings.

My default position, on this and most other issues, is "live and let live". I don't think it's a good idea to interfere in other people's lives unless there is a compelling reason to. Thus, although some people will accuse me of having my head buried in the sand (or elsewhere), I simply can't get upset about immigration simply because no one has yet presented any compelling arguments for why I should.

The problem is, the way the anti-immigration lobby come across to me is as being motivated mostly by fear, usually of some great faceless and poorly-defined entity such as Bopa describes as "THEM". "THEM" are always described as doing all sorts of nasty sounding but vaguely defined things such as "destroying our values" and "eroding our culture" without any real specifics about exactly how being given. The "evidence" presented is usually of the type suggested by Bopa in his OP, the story about Sharia law in Britain; the headline conjures up all sorts of horrible emotive images of public stoning of adulterers in Trafalgar Square, but when you actually read the article it turns out the change suggested by the archbishop would not undermine British law and would have no effect on anyone who didn't specifically ask for it.

To me, this sort of thing seems to bear all the halmarks of a conspiracy theory. It seems as though people have convinced themselves that there is a great faceless army of immigrants conspiring with the fifth columnist multicultural elite to turn the UK into Islamic theocracy. And like all good conspiracy theorists they seem to see evidence of conspiracy everywhere, in the most innocuous of news items. When I question the "evidence" presented or ask for clarification or justification I am usually either accused of being an idiot or in on the conspiracy.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case, nor that it is true for all of those whose question the wisdom of uncontrolled immigration. And I'm not at all sure it has anything to do with true racism so much as xenophobia. I'm simply saying that this is how the anti-immigration argument comes across to people like me, which is why it does not persuade me. If people were to come up with some more specific arguments about how immigration "erodes our culture", and how it impacts upon my ability to live my life exactly how I wish within the confines of the law, I might be more convinced. Calling me an idiot for not accepting every headline I read at face value is not going to get it done.


Oh and, @InsaneApache: Thanks for that clip, it brightened up my day; Father Ted is one of those series which I always forget just how funny it is.

I don't see any conspiracy, or attempt to create some kind of Islamic theocracy. I see a government which has allowed uncontrolled immigration without any real consultation with the people it most affects, the general public. Oh yea they all have this policy on immigration on their agenda so why do people still vote for them? Well as others have pointed out more and more people now take this policy into consideration when voting. Fascism is an ugly thing and it usually stems from the inability of a society to look itself in the face. You don't seem to be the type of person concerned with the overall shape of society or culture, as you yourself said, you simply care about your individual freedoms.
That is fine, but clearly others do not, and by "burying your head in the sand" and refusing to hear the increasing amount of loud shouting you are allowing dangerous political and social movements to take place.
Immigration leaves indelible marks on societies, forever changing them, I have never in history, known a case where a society has quietly accepted this. It usually leads to lots of nastiness.

Sure, I guess I am making excuses, I am certain that what I am writing is bigoted crap, but then why am I writing it? Because I'm an idiot? Likely, but it's idiots who seem to control public opinion, The Sun is the biggest collection of idiots I know of. But The Sun can control an election.
So, I can accept your disdain for bigots who perceive an assault on their culture, but to ignore them is insane. Just because you think fears are unfounded, does not make the anger they produce any less real.

I do not think I have reached the level where i will actually read THE SUN, or vote for fascists. I doubt I ever will, its one step too far. But I can perceive making that step, I know a line would be crossed. It would be point of no return, I am not crazy enough. I am attempting to rid myself of this racism-lite feeling. But having seen that step, I can full realise that others would find it easier to take it.

[InsaneApache]

Asian women is incidental.

No, it's not. You're being naive.

[JR-]

I don't see any conspiracy, or attempt to create some kind of Islamic theocracy. I see a government which has allowed uncontrolled immigration without any real consultation with the people it most affects, the general public. Oh yea they all have this policy on immigration on their agenda so why do people still vote for them? Well as others have pointed out more and more people now take this policy into consideration when voting. Fascism is an ugly thing and it usually stems from the inability of a society to look itself in the face. You don't seem to be the type of person concerned with the overall shape of society or culture, as you yourself said, you simply care about your individual freedoms.
That is fine, but clearly others do not, and by "burying your head in the sand" and refusing to hear the increasing amount of loud shouting you are allowing dangerous political and social movements to take place.
Immigration leaves indelible marks on societies, forever changing them, I have never in history, known a case where a society has quietly accepted this. It usually leads to lots of nastiness.

Sure, I guess I am making excuses, I am certain that what I am writing is bigoted crap, but then why am I writing it? Because I'm an idiot? Likely, but it's idiots who seem to control public opinion, The Sun is the biggest collection of idiots I know of. But The Sun can control an election.
So, I can accept your disdain for bigots who perceive an assault on their culture, but to ignore them is insane. Just because you think fears are unfounded, does not make the anger they produce any less real.

I do not think I have reached the level where i will actually read THE SUN, or vote for fascists. I doubt I ever will, its one step too far. But I can perceive making that step, I know a line would be crossed. It would be point of no return, I am not crazy enough. I am attempting to rid myself of this racism-lite feeling. But having seen that step, I can full realise that others would find it easier to take it.

damned good post. :wall:

[Fragony]

It's no secret. Bloody socialsts!

Damn straight. If they want to celebrate cultural diversity why don't they just sell their estate and buy a house in an enriched area, houses are much cheaper there. Relics from the seventies, a period of absolute faith and stunning stupidity.

You guys may call me NostraFragus, told you soooo

[CountArach]

I can remember the NF, the BNP forerunner, getting around about 5 votes each in the elections. Now they have dozens of councillors and perhaps a chance at an MP or two, so yes, it is meteroic. Due entirely to socialst claptrap about 'celebrating diversity' and other somesuch rubbish. The rise of the fascists is entirely down to socialism and it's discredited credo. Thanks a bunch, cretins.
:laugh4: People really do love heaping all their right-wing problems on us, don't they? :laugh4:

To paraphrase my History lecturer today (Talking about the rise of Fascism and Nazism):
One of the reasons for the popularity of Fascism was that it was so deeply grounded in the Conservative anti-Communist movement that those who were frightened of the rising Communist and Socialist powers were forced to look away from the Liberal-Democratic parties.

EDIT: After reading your post, it could be construed that we agree... but I'm not sure...

[Fragony]

A non-revisionist history teacher would explain about the Weimar situation and the political stalemate it was and how the facists were able to fill up the gap because people no longer felt represented.

[CountArach]

A non-revisionist history teacher would explain about the Weimar situation and the political stalemate it was and how the facists were able to fill up the gap because people no longer felt represented.
Actually History Professors (You know, with PhDs and everything Frag) realise that there are multiple reasons, and yes they did mention that as well. This was also not just about any individual country, but rather Fascism as a movement.

[Fragony]

A learned idiot is still an idiot, professor with these funny paper things even managed to prove the Turks saved England. See that is why I don't like socialists, it's allowed to lie if it helps socialism.

[InsaneApache]

Nooo....you can't say that, don't you know it's socialists=good: the rest=bed.

Talk about being up yourself. :shame:

[CountArach]

A learned idiot is still an idiot, professor with these funny paper things even managed to prove the Turks saved England. See that is why I don't like socialists, it's allowed to lie if it helps socialism.
That's why I hate Conservatism. It's allowed to lie if it helps Conservatism.

[Fragony]

That's why I hate Conservatism. It's allowed to lie if it helps Conservatism.

If you don't like conservatism why do you back the progressive attempt to allow an ultra-orthodox movement to settle?

[PBI]

Thanks, Bopa, for writing such an interesting and thoughtful post, it has certainly given me plenty of food for thought. Your cool, reasoned explanation of your views and arguments is a refreshing change in a debate too often characterized by petty name-calling and a tendency to see the other side as not worth reasoning with.


I don't see any conspiracy, or attempt to create some kind of Islamic theocracy. I see a government which has allowed uncontrolled immigration without any real consultation with the people it most affects, the general public. Oh yea they all have this policy on immigration on their agenda so why do people still vote for them? Well as others have pointed out more and more people now take this policy into consideration when voting.


Certainly I can agree that if the majority of people want curbs on immigration then the major parties should cater to them rather than driving people into the arms of the fascists. I won't like it but there's not a lot I can do about it, it certainly wouldn't be the first time a party I didn't vote for got elected. But it doesn't seem like a reason why I should change my views. I am not saying there isn't a case to be made, I am simply saying that the case as currently presented does not convince me.


That is fine, but clearly others do not, and by "burying your head in the sand" and refusing to hear the increasing amount of loud shouting you are allowing dangerous political and social movements to take place. Immigration leaves indelible marks on societies, forever changing them, I have never in history, known a case where a society has quietly accepted this. It usually leads to lots of nastiness.

Sure, I guess I am making excuses, I am certain that what I am writing is bigoted crap, but then why am I writing it? Because I'm an idiot? Likely, but it's idiots who seem to control public opinion, The Sun is the biggest collection of idiots I know of. But The Sun can control an election.
So, I can accept your disdain for bigots who perceive an assault on their culture, but to ignore them is insane. Just because you think fears are unfounded, does not make the anger they produce any less real.


You make an interesting point. Am I to understand that your argument is that it is not immigration in and of itself that is the problem, but the potential backlash it will provoke among the natives? That we should curb immigration simply because the people of this country can't be trusted to get a grip on themselves? That's an interesting way of looking at it, and certainly not a xenophobic one (the exact opposite in fact).


You don't seem to be the type of person concerned with the overall shape of society or culture

My problem is simply that when people talk about these things they are so vague that I really can't tell what they are talking about. I'm not saying I'm not concerned at all about these things, just a few more specifics about exactly how they are being threatened would be nice.

For instance, for me, "culture" means things like art, music, literature, science, that sort of thing. English culture (or at least the good bits) is the England of Shakespeare, Turner, Newton, Elgar. As far as I am aware that England is alive and well. The things we have lost? Casual racism, extreme gender inequality, rampant poverty. Call me crazy but I'm not exactly longing for a return to the good old days.


No, it's not. You're being naive.

Well, that's me convinced.

[InsaneApache]

Define consevatism.

[Adrian II]

Relics from the seventies, a period of absolute faith and stunning stupidity.I actually lived the seventies and I have the fondest memories you can imagine. :hippie:

Or can't, probably.

It was a time of unknown material and social freedom, of constantly increasing affluence that withstood all oil crises, a time of totally weird holidays in rough, unmapped and un-McDonaldized areas of Europe, North Africa and beyond, of free experimentation with drugs (without the hard crime that accompanies it these days), free sex (without Aids), great food (without the health scares) and other things unknown to young whippersnappers like yourself. And no matter where you had been the previous night, the mobile grocer would drive down your street and ring his little bell every morning.

The SRV man, unsung hero of the seventies. Well, there was a song about him .. "Leeeeve de man van de SRV..."

https://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2342/srvman1uz8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[CountArach]

If you don't like conservatism why do you back the progressive attempt to allow an ultra-orthodox movement to settle?
What are you talking about? What ultra-orthodox movement?

Define consevatism.
As with Socialism, I don't believe there is any hard-and-fast definition. I think of it as one of two things:
1) An attempt to maintain the Status Quo
2) To largely resist change, or at least to slow it to a much lower pace than that which Progressives would prefer.

I am willing to accept many other definitions.

[Fragony]

What are you talking about? What ultra-orthodox movement?

Well take a bloody guess.

[CountArach]

Well take a bloody guess.
I've re-read your post many times and I have taken many bloody guesses and I have come to the conclusion that you mean one of several things:
1) Fascism/Nazism
2) Socialism
3) Communism
4) Conservatism

Could you tell me which one of these four movements you mean?

[LittleGrizzly]

If they want to celebrate cultural diversity why don't they just sell their estate and buy a house in an enriched area, houses are much cheaper there. Relics from the seventies, a period of absolute faith and stunning stupidity.

If you want to celebrate all things white and christian go live with the skinheads, facists and racists... you'll fit right in im sure... thier afraid of people who look different too...

A learned idiot is still an idiot, professor with these funny paper things even managed to prove the Turks saved England.

yes damn these educated people, first they tell us the world is round, now they try and make out white christians aren't better than everyone else, well you show em frag, you don't need no education, fight the power, fight the learning!!

[CountArach]

A learned idiot is still an idiot, professor with these funny paper things even managed to prove the Turks saved England.

yes damn these educated people, first they tell us the world is round, now they try and make out white christians aren't better than everyone else, well you show em frag, you don't need no education, fight the power, fight the learning!!
Oh my God I actually burst out laughing at that :laugh4: That just made my day! :laugh4:

[Fragony]

I've re-read your post many times and I have taken many bloody guesses and I have come to the conclusion that you mean one of several things:
1) Fascism/Nazism
2) Socialism
3) Communism
4) Conservatism

Could you tell me which one of these four movements you mean?

None of these, the islam of course. Always these blasted socialists that feel we are holding back, not giving it our fullest, we should be much more openminded about the fact there is only one god and his name is allah :yes:

[CountArach]

None of these, the islam of course. Always these blasted socialists that feel we are holding back, not giving it our fullest, we should be much more openminded about the fact there is only one god and his name is allah :yes:
But there are no Gods, and well... I suppose 100% of them are named Allah...

I can't help but feel that we are getting off topic here...

[Fragony]

But there are no Gods, and well... I suppose 100% of them are named Allah...

I can't help but feel that we are getting off topic here...

Read the OP, we are right on track, it's getting a bit too close for comfort for poor Bopa :yes:

[JR-]

:laugh4: People really do love heaping all their right-wing problems on us, don't they? :laugh4:


why are the vast majority of new BNP votes (Now forming the majority of the BNP vote) previously left-wing voters? still laughing?

[CountArach]

why are the vast majority of new BNP votes (Now forming the majority of the BNP vote) previously left-wing voters? still laughing?
You got statistics for that?

[InsaneApache]

You got statistics for that?

Well known mate that the white working classes are deserting the tradional socialists in droves because thier concerns fall on deaf ears. They have instead moved to that other branch of socialism, fascism.

[CountArach]

People just don't listen to reason and facts these days, do they? :wall:

Fascism... is... not... Socialism...

[JR-]

You make an interesting point. Am I to understand that your argument is that it is not immigration in and of itself that is the problem, but the potential backlash it will provoke among the natives? That we should curb immigration simply because the people of this country can't be trusted to get a grip on themselves? That's an interesting way of looking at it, and certainly not a xenophobic one (the exact opposite in fact).

exactly what i have been saying

You (PBI) don't seem to be the type of person concerned with the overall shape of society or culture

i am not either, i live an existance quite isolated from my 'community'. i take no part in community activities, i take no interest in local events or politics, through choice i barely know my neighbours, and i live here because it is convenient rather than from any sense of attachment.

however, i recognise that i am atypical, and most people value some or all of the above factors, and they value them very highly.
that is why i do not disregard the problems of the proles, because it is that very disregard from the political class that is breeding resentment among the 'natives', and that resentment is leading to worse relations with immigrants.

the old phrase that an Englishman's home is his castle might well apply to his community too, it is inviolate, but that does not mean you are not welcome to join. the pressure to conform and participate in approved ways, especially in small rural communities is quite intense which is why i have little interest in living there. but just because i do not value such an existence does not mean it has no value.

[Fragony]

For CA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwExDG7n7Zg&feature=related

[Adrian II]

Well known mate that the white working classes are deserting the tradional socialists in droves because thier concerns fall on deaf ears. They have instead moved to that other branch of socialism, fascism.Lol, I imagine you foaming at the mouth behind your little computer screen. Tsk tsk. This irrational anger will never get you anywhere.

Maybe we could paraphrase Sartre's word about the Jews: if the socialists didn't exist, IA would invent them. :laugh3:

[InsaneApache]

Fascism... is... not... Socialism.

I know it's not but they have an awful lot in common.

Undemocratic, rule by diktak, supression on individuality, overarching state control, central command economy. The only difference is the colour of their shirts.

[CountArach]

For CA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwExDG7n7Zg&feature=related
Why are you posting here Dad?

[InsaneApache]

Lol, I imagine you foaming at the mouth behind your little computer screen. Tsk tsk. This irrational anger will never get you anywhere.

Maybe we could paraphrase Sartre's word about the Jews: if the socialists didn't exist, IA would invent them. :laugh3:

:laugh4: I only foam at the mouth when I forget to wash the steradent from my dentures in the morning. :laugh4:

[CountArach]

Undemocratic
Because every Socialist on these forums has argued for the abolition of Democracy... right?

rule by diktak
Nope...

supression on individuality
In economic matters, sure.

overarching state control
Only of parts of the economy.

central command economy.
Now you are confusing Socialism with Marxism/Leninism.

The only difference is the colour of their shirts.
Red is so in.


And to keep it on topic:

Racism = Bad.

[Fragony]

Man how did you manage to actually fall for that :dizzy2:

hehe

[LittleGrizzly]

why are the vast majority of new BNP votes (Now forming the majority of the BNP vote) previously left-wing voters? still laughing?

Do you know which party apart from itself BNP has reccomended and says it's likes ?

(if you don't know answer at bottom of reply)

Do you know which party a bunch of politicians left the conservative party to join ?

(again don't worry the answer will be at the bottom)


Hmm, which party apart from itself did the racist party reccomend, surely some socailist party i here you say ? Green party ? Socailist Coalition ? obvious choices for any left winger surely ? No, they choose a party to the right of the conservatives, to the right you say Grizz ? surely not, those racists are facists... and everyone knows facism is socailism. Admittedly this could be some liberal trickery by the BNP cos we know what em lefty's is like, but the BNP came out and recomended UKIP, the party that they think are the best besides themselves

So let us see, who did a bunch of conservatives join... well thats easy, they joined UKIP, ideaologically fairly close to the conservative but UKIP is more right wing, anti EU, anti immigration....

So BNP --- UKIP ---- Conservatives ---- labour ----- socailists....

But wait ?!? how come the BNP and the socailists are on opposite sides ?? Its typical left wing trickery son, don't listen to logic (another lefty trick) ill just repeat it until you accept it...

BNP are socailists
BNP are socailists
BNP are socailists
BNP are socailists

[CountArach]

I haerd u laik Ukipz?

[JR-]

You got statistics for that?

not quite, but near enough:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7382831.stm

[CountArach]

The Labor Party is no longer left-wing. Blair killed any last remaining semblance of the left.

[JR-]

why are the vast majority of new BNP votes (Now forming the majority of the BNP vote) previously left-wing voters? still laughing?

Do you know which party apart from itself BNP has reccomended and says it's likes ?

(if you don't know answer at bottom of reply)

Do you know which party a bunch of politicians left the conservative party to join ?

(again don't worry the answer will be at the bottom)


Hmm, which party apart from itself did the racist party reccomend, surely some socailist party i here you say ? Green party ? Socailist Coalition ? obvious choices for any left winger surely ? No, they choose a party to the right of the conservatives, to the right you say Grizz ? surely not, those racists are facists... and everyone knows facism is socailism. Admittedly this could be some liberal trickery by the BNP cos we know what em lefty's is like, but the BNP came out and recomended UKIP, the party that they think are the best besides themselves

So let us see, who did a bunch of conservatives join... well thats easy, they joined UKIP, ideaologically fairly close to the conservative but UKIP is more right wing, anti EU, anti immigration....

So BNP --- UKIP ---- Conservatives ---- labour ----- socailists....

But wait ?!? how come the BNP and the socailists are on opposite sides ?? Its typical left wing trickery son, don't listen to logic (another lefty trick) ill just repeat it until you accept it...

BNP are socailists
BNP are socailists
BNP are socailists
BNP are socailists

that is irrelevant because i did not claim that: BNP = Socialists.

I was responding to the silly statement that immigration is a right wing problem. I pointed out in refutation the fact that left-wing (inner-city working-class) voters are deserting Labour and flocking to labour.

so you have just built a really tall and flimsy house of cards to snatch an apple from a tree that turns out to be in the orchard next door, congrats.

[JR-]

The Labor Party is no longer left-wing. Blair killed any last remaining semblance of the left.

they are as left wing as we have got in mainstream UK politics, which is 90+% of UK politics.
that is as a daft as saying that the Cons are not right wing because they are far to left of the Republicans in america.

[LittleGrizzly]

From the article
Richard Barnbrook's language in London was different, couching an anti-immigration pitch in terms of "fitting in" with British society - the target being Muslims.
"You may have your religion behind your closed doors, but you don't bring it onto the streets," he said. "You can be gay behind closed doors, you can be heterosexual behind closed doors, but you don't bring it onto the streets, demanding more rights for it."

First ask yourself, which forum member comes to mind when reading that ?

A lefty constantly extolling the virtues of socailism or someone who constantly states his hate for the left and socialism, sorry no answers are going to be provided this time, figure it out yourself..

From the article

The BNP did not sweep to power - but it won two councillors. Up and down the country the party appears to make very small gains when traditional Labour voters stay at home. But when those voters come out, its vote is very quickly squeezed.

Hmm, Intresting, the bnp makes gains by labour voters staying at home, so maybe thier gains are to do with labour not gaining thier usual vote and non-labour voters coming out in force...

and would you look at that, when the traditional (this bit is important, new labour voters are centerists, the traditional labour voters are the leftys) labour voters come out instead of the bnp doing better from all these leftys, they do worse because these people vote for labour over them !!

So to recap, BNP doing better because people are dissatisfied with labour.... because they vote for the BNP instead of labour or because they don't come out and vote labour because of dissatisfaction and other partys manage to sneak in because of the lower turnout..

hmm this whole bnp are leftys seems to make as much sense as the socialists are facists...

[InsaneApache]

For all those that deny that socialsm and fascism are linked, let me ask you a question. Who was it that started the fascists in the UK? I'll give you a clue, he was a Labour government minister and he was married to a Mitford lass.

[JR-]

gee, awesome bit of selective quoting.

would you like me to have a go as well?

from the article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7382831.stm

"BNP gains from Labour disaffection"

"Nevertheless, 130,000 people supported the idea of a BNP assembly member in London - and the party has a toehold in a handful of councils around the country."

"Unite Against Fascism, an anti-BNP pressure group, has done its own electoral analysis which shows that the number of votes per elected councillor has steadily increased over the past eight years."

"The BNP's strategy has increasingly seen it focus not just on fears of immigration, but also on a subtle blend of tensions relating to feelings of disregarded "entitlement" in communities that would have long been considered core Labour supporters."

[LittleGrizzly]

that is irrelevant because i did not claim that: BNP = Socialists.

I wasn't nessecarily aiming that at you, it was aimed at any of the posters with thier socailism = something i don't like...

I was responding to the silly statement that immigration is a right wing problem.

And i was responding to the silly statement that socailism or the left are all to blame for racism or facism or a multitude of other problems, it is other people that started trying to define racism or the bnp as right or left wing, i am simply showing the foolishness of such a position, im not trying to blame racism on the conservatives...

I pointed out in refutation the fact that left-wing (inner-city working-class) voters are deserting Labour and flocking to labour.

What your article pointed out was that when labour voters stayed at home, BNP squeezed into 1 seat by the smallest of margins, to define the inner city working class as purely left wing is folly, as i understand it when MT came to power she did so with a lot of inner city support, sure inner citys are usually left wing, but to point to someone winning 5.3% of the vote in an inner city area where it mentions in the same article that traditional labour party voters stayed at home, and then to try and turn this into see leftys = racists = bnp is just plain wrong...

The Labor Party is no longer left-wing. Blair killed any last remaining semblance of the left

I would agree with this, they may be left wing compared to the conservatives but in terms of major partys in the UK the ones i would call left wingers now would be the Liberal Democrats, Blair moved labour right into the centre of UK politics an thats why the Cons have had such a hard time beating labour, even with the Iraq war and all the other crap thats gone on...

[Fragony]

From the article
Richard Barnbrook's language in London was different, couching an anti-immigration pitch in terms of "fitting in" with British society - the target being Muslims.
"You may have your religion behind your closed doors, but you don't bring it onto the streets," he said. "You can be gay behind closed doors, you can be heterosexual behind closed doors, but you don't bring it onto the streets, demanding more rights for it."

First ask yourself, which forum member comes to mind when reading that ?

A lefty constantly extolling the virtues of socailism or someone who constantly states his hate for the left and socialism, sorry no answers are going to be provided this time, figure it out yourself..

Sounds to me like someone who has a very clear view of how other people should live their life, surprisingly moderate for a lefty because it ends at the front door, I have never been more amazed in my life to tell you the truth.

edit: oh and yes I am most definatily trolling, naughty I know but so much fun

[Adrian II]

For all those that deny that socialsm and fascism are linked, let me ask you a question. Who was it that started the fascists in the UK? I'll give you a clue, he was a Labour government minister and he was married to a Mitford lass.He was a Conservative member of parliament first. He was also a Christian. Does this mean Christianity is the root of fascism?

Somehow you always slant the facts until they fit some ludicrous assumption, and it isn't convincing anyone.

[LittleGrizzly]

gee, awesome bit of selective quoting.

would you like me to have a go as well?

Yes as mentioned in the article, they squeezed into seats with tiny percentages thanks to proportional representation when traditional labour voters stayed at home, so sure they won these seats, but guess which party they were battling in these areas for these seats....... thats right! it was the labour party!

Im not trying to suggest that its solely right wingers who vote for BNP, they get a fairly varied bunch of people, some people just dissatisfied with the major parties, some people who feel they will actually make a difference in local issues where major parties don't seem to listen, and finally some people who are worried about all the different people in the area and whether these 'strange' people will steal thier jobs... or thier taxes....


For all those that deny that socialsm and fascism are linked, let me ask you a question. Who was it that started the fascists in the UK? I'll give you a clue, he was a Labour government minister and he was married to a Mitford lass.

Ill admit i don't know, for all those who deny that facism and conservatives are linked i give you
Oswald Mosley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley

Who then later in his caereer joined labour, hmm could this mean that maybe everyone is a facist (looks over shoulder)

It claimed membership as high as 50,000, and had the Daily Mail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail) and Daily Mirror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mirror) among its earliest supporters.

Despite this, the organisation gained support among many Labour and Conservative MPs, who agreed with his corporatist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatist) economic policy. Among those who agreed with Mosley's economic ideas were Aneurin Bevan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan) and Harold Macmillan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Macmillan). It also gained the endorsement of the Daily Mail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail), a British newspaper.

Support seems to be all over the place for this guy, the left the right, the daily mail bastion of all that is wrong with the right, if your going to try and define facism as left wing maybe its best to avoid people who seem to suggest that its both right and left wing ?

Does this mean Christianity is the root of fascism?

Considering what passes for argument in terms of left = facism i think i could make a much more convincing case there...

[Fragony]

Somehow you always slant the facts until they fit some ludicrous assumption, and it isn't convincing anyone.

Let me try. It's weimar all over again BNP is filling the gap. I'll take your word for it that they are scum, don't really know that much about them and I like to keep it that way. But it's the fault of labour that this happens with it's dhimmitude and cultural relativation. I don't think the rise of the BNP is a rise of racism but a rise in anti-clientism, in england it's political correctness and leap of faith contest gone insane don't act surprised when people notice that. When my assumption turn out to be a fact we will either be praying to allah or the muslims will be coughing up their lungs in Poland. No ' wir haben as nicht gewuBt' for us mia muca, we are heading straight to escalation and we know it can happen because it happened before.

[Adrian II]

But it's the fault of labour that this happens with it's dhimmitude and cultural relativation.In The Netherlands it was the Christian Democratic party that introduced the policy to celebrate immigrants' cultures and religions of origin in the early 1980's. Before that, all immigrants had to adapt without more ado and organisations of migrants for mutual support were encouraged, but by country or origin only, and not on the basis of religion.

Since a sizeable chunk of immigrants were Muslims and Christian Democracy saw its electorate of traditional Christians eroding, this party reckoned they could build a new religious electorate for themselves in the shape of these migrant communities. That's how this policy was initiated in the 1980's by three right-wing governments led by a Christian Democrat Prime Minister. Migrants were now supported and subsidized on the basis of their religion, and mosques, schools and religious centres were build instead of cultural centres and educational establishments, language courses and efforts for teh advancement of migrant women. Major mistake. Christian Democrat origin.

The background to various immigration issues is different for every country, and every political current has had trouble dealing with them. And as I wrote earlier, I think many complaints about migration issues actually reflect an unease with modernity, rather than with migration.

Now we can either discuss these issues seriously, or you guys can continue to wallow in your pet peeves and this whole thread will just be a waste of pixels.

[InsaneApache]

He was a Conservative member of parliament first. He was also a Christian. Does this mean Christianity is the root of fascism?

Somehow you always slant the facts until they fit some ludicrous assumption, and it isn't convincing anyone.


Mosley and his wife Cynthia were ardent Fabian Socialists in the 1920s and 1930s. Mosley appears in a list of names of Fabians from Fabian News and Fabian Society Annual Report 1929–31.

Aye there's nowt like slanting the facts is there? So, just to be clear, his political conversion went thus; Tory, Independent, Labour (a Fabian at that!) and then fascist. So the premise that tories and fascists share the same root is patent nonsense. Socialists and fascist on the other hand do.

[Adrian II]

Aye there's nowt like slanting the facts is there? So, just to be clear, his political conversion went thus; Tory, Independent, Labour (a Fabian at that!) and then fascist. So the premise that tories and fascists share the same root is patent nonsense. Socialists and fascist on the other hand do.This doesn't even have the redeeming quality of being funny. You're just disappointing me and others with this nonsense.

[InsaneApache]

oh hang on I found another way to slant facts.


In 1902, Mussolini emigrated to Switzerland to find work and to expand his political horizons. During a period when he was unable to find a permanent job there, he was arrested for vagrancy and jailed for one night. Later, after becoming involved in the socialist movement, he was deported to Italy and volunteered for military service. Mussolini found a job in February 1908 in the city of Trento, which was ethnically Italian but then under the control of Austria-Hungary. He did office work for the local socialist party and edited its newspaper L'Avvenire del Lavoratore ("The Future of the Worker"). It did not take him long to make contact with irredentist politician and journalist Cesare Battisti, and to agree to write for and edit his newspaper Il Popolo ("The People") in addition to the work he did for the party.

Whoops, another one snuck under the wire. :embarassed:

To coin a phrase, fascism and socialism, two cheeks of the same arse.

[Adrian II]

oh hang on I found another way to slant facts.



Whoops, another one snuck under the wire. :embarassed:You actually think this is news, do you?

Fascism arose out of a disappointment with democratic parties, that's why it drew supporters from all of them. Of course as soon as Fascism came to power it eradicated Socialist and other leftist movements. No love lost between them. In some states Fascism was a pure peasant movement. IN others it arose out of the mangled warrior aristocracy of former empires. Read up a bit, widen your horizon and come up with something worthwhile.

Surprise us, man, you know you can do it. :beam:

[Fragony]

In The Netherlands it was the Christian Democratic party that introduced the policy to celebrate immigrants' cultures and religions of origin in the early 1980's. Before that, all immigrants had to adapt without more ado and organisations of migrants for mutual support were encouraged, but by country or origin only, and not on the basis of religion.

Since a sizeable chunk of immigrants were Muslims and Christian Democracy saw its electorate of traditional Christians eroding, this party reckoned they could build a new religious electorate for themselves in the shape of these migrant communities. That's how this policy was initiated in the 1980's by three right-wing governments led by a Christian Democrat Prime Minister. Migrants were now supported and subsidized on the basis of their religion, and mosques, schools and religious centres were build instead of cultural centres and educational establishments, language courses and efforts for teh advancement of migrant women. Major mistake. Christian Democrat origin.


They were expected to leave when used up so it was not needed, which they, to everybody's genuine amazement didn't, for some reason they prefered living in a house with running water and electricity over herding goats in the sandlands who would have thought! Why could they stay anyway? And why could they bring their whole goddamn village?

Oh and most importantly, strassbourgh resolutions of 1975. For the rest of you who are clueless; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurabia

[Tribesman]

Labour (a Fabian at that!)
who was that socialist who said that the fabians were the method that the capitalist heirachy set up and used to stop socialism ?
But anyway a simple test to explore your socialism=fascism.
Some people here are saying that a certain grouping on the left of the political spectrum are the ones who bend over backwards for the immigrants .
they also say that a certain political grouping on the right are the ones that will stand up against the immigrants and the leftists and protect the heritage of the natives .
Since fascism pretty much gets defined as being an extreme form of the latter is it a development on the right or left of the political spectrum ?
Now call me really dumb but it seems there is only one answer to that , and it seems it is the opposite of what you claim IA .


But anyway , Bopa , good topic , very interesting and I applaud your candour the honesty of your posts .
Especially stuff like this......

I do not think I have reached the level where i will actually read THE SUN, or vote for fascists. I doubt I ever will, its one step too far. But I can perceive making that step, I know a line would be crossed. It would be point of no return, I am not crazy enough. I am attempting to rid myself of this racism-lite feeling. But having seen that step, I can full realise that others would find it easier to take it.

:bow:
Racism the comfortable home for those who choose to stop thinking .

[InsaneApache]

OK I admit it, the fact that Mussolini and Mosley were at first socialsts had nothing to do with the fact they became fascists, it was all a coincidence. There, better now?

Oh hang on, there's another one...

Gottfried Feder.


From 1917 on, Feder studied financial politics and economics on his own; he developed a hostility towards wealthy bankers during World War I and wrote a "manifesto on breaking the shackles of interest" ("Brechung der Zinsknechtschaft") in 1919. This was soon followed by the founding of a "task force" dedicated to those goals that demanded a nationalisation of all banks and an abolishment of interest.

Sounds fishy to me, too socialist for his own good.

[JR-]

Now we can either discuss these issues seriously, or you guys can continue to wallow in your pet peeves and this whole thread will just be a waste of pixels.

while this whole: (right wing = BNP + socialists = fascists) thing has got totally beyond the point of the debate, it does stem from the legitimate point that uncontrolled immigration is having a major impact particularly in inner cities which is pushing ordinary voters into reluctantly adopting extreme anti-immigration parties.

i have no idea what local politics is like elsewhere, i don't live in other countries to deal with the intricacies and issues on a daily basis, but i can tell you that it isn't normal in British politics.

i have seen it myself, perfectly ordinary and nice people admitting to me with misery and evident distaste that they may vote BNP in future, because they don't see anyone else standing up for their corner.

and while i feel a little horrified each time this has happened i have to remind myself that i don't live in an inner city swamped (as they see it) with settled migrants.

[Tribesman]

For the rest of you who are clueless; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurabia
Well done Frag .

Due to its purported harsh, ethnically charged language and conspiratorical tone, the theory of Eurabia has been compared to anti-semitic writings by some writers.

Journalist Johann Hari calls the two "startlingly similar" and says that "there are intellectuals on the British right who are propagating a conspiracy theory about Muslims that teeters very close to being a 21st century Protocols of the Elders of Mecca."[37]

In Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter, journalist Andreas Malm claims[38] that Mark Steyn advocates genocide [39] and highlights the conspiratorical claims against Islam as a whole made by the Eurabia writers. In a follow-up article, journalist Eva Ekselius claims "Like the Jews were depicted as the foreign, the other, onto which one could project all the traits the culture wants to deny in themselves, so the 'muslims' now get to take over the second-hand props of anti-semitism" and makes a direct comparison to pre-war Europe[40].

Israeli peace activist Adam Keller, in a letter of protest sent on June 2, 2008 to the Israeli publisher of Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis, wrote:

In 1886 the French antisemite Edouard Drumont published La France Juive, creating the false nightmarish image of a France dominated by Jews, and sowing the poisonous seeds which came to fruit when Vichy French officials collaborated in the mass muder of French Jewry. Bat Ye'or follows in notorious footsteps indeed by creating the false nightmarish image of a Europe dominated by Arabs and Muslims.[41]


Hmmmm .....you are one of those who repeatedly push this false theory of eurabia aren't you , does that mean you are a 21st century Oswald Mosley ?

[Fragony]

Of course she is accused of being similar to anti-semetic works that's an old trick that just happens to work Fortuyn got the Anne Frank omg-treatment as well and for a whole lot less, you will find some critics below in that link that aren't the least but not a single one says she is wrong, just alarmist. But it has all been carefully documented and it's ignored instead of rediculed that says enough to the carefull eye. Not the least agree, Hirsi Ali, and (don't think you know him, AdrianII does, personally even I believe) Hans Jansen, and I'll take their experience and knowledge on the subject over activist MORAL OUTRAGE if you don't mind.

[Adrian II]

Protocols of the Elders of Mecca.That's a good one, I read the book and the characterisation is spot on. Like antisemites, this lady lies, makes things up and misinterprets documents and statements in such a massive way that it would take a book ten times the size of hers to begin to refute it. And it is no use, it is a book for believers, people who are already convinced of a conspiracy, and every counter-argument you make only proves that you are a dupe or a part of the conspiracy. It is the exact same 'logic' applied by prominent pre-war (and some post-war) antisemites in their writings.

As for professor Hans Jansen who wrote the foreword to the Dutch edition, I can only repeat what Fragony said in post #93: 'A learned idiot is still an idiot.' Jansen is a fine Arabist, but his political views are lunatic.

[Kralizec]

Fascist parties were able to devour the soclialist parties is because they, too, promised to better the position of the workers and because they didn't have any objections to using national sentiments to build their support. Mussolini was a socialist at first but he didn't share its pacifist ideals.
There's a theoretical difference between socialism and facism in that the former pays lip service to egalitarianism, but that's never been the case with the socialists either. Despite what they might say a socialist party is just one batch of the educated elite willing vying for the electorate's favour. The party structure may be democratic on paper but most of the members can't or won't spend the time to attend voting procedure, rendering the whole process a farce. Robert Michels (who coined the term "iron law of oligarchy") was a socialist who took note of all this and became a staunch supporter of Mussolini.

As for traditional Labour voters jumping ship to the BNP, I'm not surprised. It's not as if leftist voters can't be bigots too, and the leap from "work for everyone" to "British jobs for British people" isn't as big as it seems.

[rvg]

2-party system is the way to go! :laugh4:

On a serious note, 2-party system does a great job of keeping both leftie and rightie whackos permanetly on the fringe with no hope whatsoever of gaining power or influence.

[InsaneApache]

It looks as though my rantings may actually have some merit...


Ultimately, the link between socialism and fascism is that both are willing to use coercion to force individuals to comply with a set of rules aimed at achieving the philosophical aims (be they egalitarian or nationalist) of the ruling party. Nazism was also styled National Socialism, note. By comparison, liberalism (which has little in common with the philosophies and policies espoused by Democrats) tries to create a system that enables every individual to pursue their own goals, only circumscribing individual action where it would impede the freedom of others.

http://liberalpolemic.blogspot.com/2008/01/what-socialism-and-fascism-have-in.html

:juggle2:

[Fragony]

That's a good one, I read the book and the characterisation is spot on. Like antisemites, this lady lies, makes things up and misinterprets documents and statements in such a massive way that it would take a book ten times the size of hers to begin to refute it.

Well a jurist in international law would do they plow right through it. That would be a start no if these resolutions don't exist, would make the whole book an excersise in futility no? But they do, it's real, from a (admittingly extremily insulting) cartoonist being swatted from his bed in the middle of the night (last time that happened the charge was insulting a friendly statesman, guess who) to a non-muslim kid getting detention because he doesn't want to pray to allah.

[Adrian II]

Well a jurist in international law would do they plow right through it. That would be a start no if these resolutions don't exist, would make the whole book an excersise in futility no? But they do, it's real, from a (admittingly extremily insulting) cartoonist being swatted from his bed in the middle of the night (last time that happened the charge was insulting a friendly statesman, guess who) to a non-muslim kid getting detention because he doesn't want to pray to allah.Sure. And it is all orchestrated by Brussels because some old Bat says so and a real professor has said she's right.

https://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8778/tinfoilhats1kk4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[Fragony]

Sure. And it is all orchestrated by Brussels because some old Bat says so and a real professor has said she's right.

https://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8778/tinfoilhats1kk4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

I think he is right because I have absolutily no reason to think otherwise. Muslims ask, homo-servus does. Boobies in the city hall! Gone with it! Funny thing is that that was pre-emptive dhimmitude, muslims didn't even ask homo-servus assumed they demanded it. But sir! Just because they want it doesn't mean we should do it! ' But they want it' If muslims say jump do you jump? ' They...... want..... it......excuse...me...I..got.. a... costumer' But they aren't paying! ' They..........................want..........it...........must.......'

[Adrian II]

I think he is right because I have absolutily no reason to think otherwise. Muslims ask, homo-servus does. Boobies in the city hall! Gone with it! Funny thing is that that was pre-emptive dhimmitude, muslims didn't even ask homo-servus assumed they demanded it. But sir! Just because they want it doesn't mean we should do it! ' But they want it' If muslims say jump do you jump? ' They...... want..... it......excuse...me...I..got.. a... costumer' But they aren't paying! ' They..........................want..........it...........must.......'Fragony? Are you alright?

[Fragony]

Fragony? Are you alright?

Just roleplaying a leftie, not nearly there I can do only 20 circles before I get dizzy and disorientated.

[Tribesman]

Not the least agree, Hirsi Ali, and (don't think you know him, AdrianII does, personally even I believe) Hans Jansen, and I'll take their experience and knowledge on the subject over activist MORAL OUTRAGE if you don't mind.

And the irony there is that it is activist moral outrage that you yourself are always selling .
Well more accurately activist moral outrage and complete bollox , like for example.....

a non-muslim kid getting detention because he doesn't want to pray to allah. ....in case your unthinking mind forgot , that like most of the "OMG its the Muslims" stories you constantly post was complete nonsense , it never actually happened , it was a fabrication that originated with a BNP activist and found itself repeated by the errrr....liberal media:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Craterus]

For all those that deny that socialsm and fascism are linked, let me ask you a question. Who was it that started the fascists in the UK? I'll give you a clue, he was a Labour government minister and he was married to a Mitford lass.

Mosley was a power-hungry opportunist and I believe he started his political career as an Independent and I seem to recall he was in the Conservative party in the early 20s, joining the Labour party in 1924, the year it was elected.

Ok, seems I hit reply a little too soon and most of this has been confirmed by other posters.

[CountArach]

who was that socialist who said that the fabians were the method that the capitalist heirachy set up and used to stop socialism ?
Sounds like Hobsbawm to me.

IA, can you name any modern Socialists who are Pro-War and who are Pro-Nationalism?

[Incongruous]

Hmmm...

I cannot perceive why people are jumping on one side of the scale and pointing at the other end. I do believe that it was the conservatives who destroyed old Enoch, I do not remember reading that the Conservatives stopped immigration. Both parties have simply ignored the issue, the more I think about it the more it seems that I am really just angry with Westminster. The way in which it can quickly stir up anger and bias against the anti-immigration "crowd" seems very similar to the way in which The Sun and co. do it at the other end. I am not at that end, and can perceive the hopelessness of both sides, in the end it will be the people of England who go dawn the tubes for it. No delays this time. I suppose one of the reasons I say I hate the "lefty-libs" is because of the writers employed by the Guardian, spouting bollocks such as "with a win in cricket white Britain will make the move to English Nationalism" followed up by a load of how terrible English Nationalism is. This is obviously a load of irrational crap, and I allow it to create whole load of irrational anger against bloody journos for God's sake!
Coupled with the crap I sometimes read (undisclosed news outlets:embarassed:), I end up being incredibly pissed at nearly everyone who is not standing exactly where I am, but because I'm being so stupid, I cannot define where I am, its bollocks. Because, I never used to feel like this, but by growing up and attempting to read more news of home, I have been caught in the web of lies spouted by all "these" idiots. I can define who they are, the tossers who run the show.

On another note,I feel I have successfully dismantled my racism and now understand what it is. It's jealously, jealousy of what these immigrants from Asia and Africa have, a vibrant culture which even I think is great. I look at what I bring to the party, and the rice-crispy squares just don't cut it. All I can do is look back at a semi-constructed past and pine for the glory days, I wonder where all my stuff has gone. We started off great with Beowulf, Chaucer was good, Shakespeare is bloody good, Tallis was good, the old folk songs were enjoyable, those old festivals sound like fun, Ale was probably the best invention ever (real stuff), Elgar was pompous but he had some great lines. Then...
Then we come to people like Milton, he saw it happening a long time ago, we stole our own culture and now its gone. Sure, we now have lots and lots of money, I really like LCD's, we have real democracy (joking of coarse but closer than before). But instead of celebrations of England we have the Tate Modern and poetry festivals, all very toned down, very grey and both complete crap.
Instead of great tales of our past heroes like Beowulf and Henry, we have all this intellectual crap that is written by and critically acclaimed by the same certain area of society. Instead of great public works being built, we have tower blocks and Canary wharf, St.Pall's is lost amongst the towers. We have Hollywood crap smacked into our faces, while libraries are closed for want of interest, for want of a cultural soul. It's all very sad.

Then I look at the Hindus, and boy is their culture awesome! The colour! The sounds! and the respect with which it held by younger generations. I look at the boarded up library...
I look at the Muslims, and my heart fills with absolute wonder, visions of deserts, great palaces, a mighty past and graceful poetry. They have it, right there clasped tight within their hands, I'm holding my ticket to Batman...
I'm not angry about a massive mosque being built, they are amazing places, but where is my cultural equivalent? The old lime washed Cathedrals? No thanks I don't want the past I want the present. But over time, this anger festers into pain, then into hatred, it only takes a few stupid words. We always look hatefully towards those who have what we don't.

I hope that this is the real form of my racism, my lack of anything real...

Sorry to add on to this whine, but, the reason I feel that these new cultures are such a threat,is because of their superiority of whatever England has on offer, its not their fault that my rice-crispy squares are so bad, but I still want to get rid of that tasty Tikka (if possible by quick entry into the upper orifice and some time later by its embarrassing recycling in a public toilet.)

[Adrian II]

On another note,I feel I have successfully dismantled my racism and now understand what it is. It's jealously, jealousy of what these immigrants from Asia and Africa have, a vibrant culture which even I think is great. I look at what I bring to the party, and the rice-crispy squares just don't cut it. Reread my initial post if you will. This is exactly what I wrote about: I feel cheated by modernity like you do, and I understand why immigrants wouldn't give up all the good things in their heritage for a bag of tasteless prefab rice-crispies. And since the good things are tied up with the bad in so many ways, we get to see their bad side as well.

Example. On the one hand their often strong sense of family allows them to care for the elderly in ways in which we, western Europeans, wouldn't or couldn't care for them. On the other hand, their strong sense of family leads to arranged marrriages and family honour concepts which we despise.

If we had anything better to offer than the rice-crispies, it would be a very different issue. Those rice-crispies are a symbol of the way we destroyed our own sense of community, food quality, spontaneous festivities, etcetera through commercialisation and stardardisation.

Kudos for your great posts by the way, I love this thread.

[Tribesman]

I like the way you phrase it as a "semi consructed past" and mention Beowulf as a perfect example , a story written set in a foriegn land , using a foriegn tradition , written in two different dialects that were both immigrant , often attributed to a time when England had a foriegn king . It is part of a manuscript that contains among other things the thoughts of some bloke from North africa, some greek geezers , a roman and some Isreali bird .
The epitome of englishness .
Anyway forget about bringing Rice-crispy cakes to parties , they are just another foriegn thing .
Why not bring a keg of scrumpy and a bucket of elvers instead ?
Native , traditional and tasty .( don't buy the elvers though as they is damn expensive , catch your own but don't get caught unless you inherited a permit in the traditional manner)

[Adrian II]

Native , traditional and tasty.Well, there you go. Nobody eats elvers anymore. The only 'authentic' British products are prefab brands sweetened and tailored to modern taste beyond recognition by even the previous generation.

I had a neighbourhood barbecue with Moroccans many years go. They slaughtered something, cooked it up, and all the elderly Dutch people who had been invited were reliving their youths because the stuff 'tasted like it used to'. That's what we're talking about. And this applies, mutatis mutandis, to everything Bopa mentioned, including those Cathedrals which have become tedious museums which the young would rather forego for a beer or an hour of computer gaming.

[Tribesman]

Well, there you go. Nobody eats elvers anymore.
Of course they do , I have eaten them countless times in England , but they is very expensive if you have to buy them .
Scrumpy on the other hand is dirt cheap and produces very funny results at parties if people are not used to it .

[Adrian II]

Scrumpy on the other hand is dirt cheap and produces very funny results at parties if people are not used to it .Alright, alright. I also take visitors to herring stalls and try to make them eat a raw sucker with chopped onion and a pickle. They hate it, apart from the Japanese who slip them into their mouths wholesale and bite them off at the tail like a real Dutchman.

But this is a hold-over from the 17th century when herring used to be the Dutch daily fare instead of bread and potatoes. And it's one of the few that echo a previous way of life that could be called authentically Dutch. That's what we're talking about. Practically every aspect of our lives has been sanitized, standardized, turned into a brand or a theme park motto.

You know full well that this is what Bopa means and I'd love to read a real answer from you.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Coupled with the crap I sometimes read (undisclosed news outlets:embarassed:), I end up being incredibly pissed at nearly everyone who is not standing exactly where I am, but because I'm being so stupid, I cannot define where I am, its bollocks. Because, I never used to feel like this, but by growing up and attempting to read more news of home, I have been caught in the web of lies spouted by all "these" idiots. I can define who they are, the tossers who run the show.

Ah, the inchoate rage of advancing years. Believe me, this feeling only gets worse with age. :shame:

There is still a great deal of wonderful English culture about, it's just harder to see among the sanitisation that Adrian describes. Also, one should not be so quick to dismiss the role of the past - tradition is a defining element of culture and those awe-inspiring cathedrals are just one aspect of the incredible journey that is English history.

I visit a small city called Exeter in the South-West fairly regularly and to me, it epitomises the greatness of English culture. It is dominated by a fascinating Norman cathedral - in front of which lies a pavement that covers an Anglo-Saxon graveyard dug into the remains of the Roman bath-house. This little city was founded by the Romans, but on a settlement of the Celts. When one walks past the cathedral one can feel a time-line of connection to these people, many of whom looked on that cathedral with the same sense of awe and majesty - and belonging. Pretty much all of them were immigrants. The city is surrounded by a reasonably well-preserved Roman wall. In one quarter of that wall, near the river, all the outcasts from previous dominant cultures were placed. It was known as the British quarter, because the saxon hegemony caused the Romano-celts to gather there. Then the saxons congregated there in turn, as far as they could get from the Norman castle built by the Conqueror. Later the Jews, and so on. Nowadays, it is still a bohemian place where pubs for the "outcast" cultures ply their trade and artists and musicians feel an ancient connection with previous cultural oddities. Not for any good reason, except perhaps a faint cultural memory to their stubborn forebears.

The modern city is still incredibly cosmopolitan, with nationalities of every kind due to the university and tourism trade. No-one would ever know it, but there is a significant Chinese community in this far-flung Devon city, and a lot of Iraqis too, who escaped from Saddam's time. The university has one of the foremost Islamic Studies departments in the world, built by a donation from (I think) one of the UAE emirs. There are regular farmers' markets with the finest produce from the agriculture of one of Europe's best soils.

Yet amongst this grandeur is also the curse of a new shopping precinct characterised by all the soullessness that only modern commercial architects can conjure.

England is full of this extraordinary diversity, amazing tolerance and acceptance, incredible history both living and past - and the paradox of banality suppurating alongside.

I'm in Scotland at the moment for the grouse, and watched a programme on your Channel Five which I can really recommend to reinvigorate one's fondness for English culture. "Rory and Paddy's Great British Adventure (http://www.onthebox.com/program/3411333/rory-and-paddy%27s-great-british-adventure.aspx)" has the presenters going to all corners of the country participating in the extraordinary customs of the natives - like cheese rolling races and "duikel flunking" (I think). The latter is classic. Originally Dutch, but now 300 years a tradition of Suffolk, it requires the throwing of a wet cloth at a rotating circle of increasingly merry teams and if you miss you get to drain a chamber pot of beer dregs. The sheer fun, on a summer's day, of this village activity was palpable, and the sense of community quite wonderful. Everyone got sozzled, but this led to hilarity and hugs rather than knife fights.

There's lots to be proud of in English culture, and the best of it is the embrace made to so many other cultures and extraordinary fusion of the best of old and new.


Kudos for your great posts by the way, I love this thread.

Absolutely agree. :bow:

[Strike For The South]

This is blowing my mind

[Incongruous]

Well I just had a bottle of scrumpy, Jesus...
I swear stairs used to be straight:shame:

[Tribesman]

Well I just had a bottle of scrumpy, Jesus...
I swear stairs used to be straight

Amazing isn't it , when you get good clean stuff your mind remains clear , your speech coherent...but bloody hell where have the legs gone to .:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Incongruous]

About five feet behind me I'd say:laugh4:

[InsaneApache]

Amazing isn't it , when you get good clean stuff your mind remains clear , your speech coherent...but bloody hell where have the legs gone to .:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

When my big bro and his Mrs. ran pubs in Somerset I went on a visit. His wife encouraged me to have a pint or two of the cloudy stuff. I got off the bar stool to go for a slash and found myself giving the carpet a close up inspection. Yup, head as clear as a bell, legs totally knackered. :laugh4:

[JR-]

like the homebrew we used to make at uni.

[Incongruous]

Having let the affect of "fun times" wear off I have gone over my feelings (coherent thought having very little to do with this), and I feel that what I posted was really a grand attempt at denial. I wanted so bad for my racism to be the product of a totally non-racist reaction to modern life and the decline in my culture's pedigree.
It was just too rose tinted, I would be doing myself and this discussion a disservice If I did not admit as much.

I have begun to think that it really is not just their culture, an attempt to say so would give me a way out of this feeling. For culture can be changed, so if it was their culture then I could let my mind off the hook, my reckoning that it will be all right in a 50 years or so. But this conclusion did not completely rid me of those feelings. Something right at the back of my head is still pulsing, in a subtle way it is spreading its message through my thoughts. I cannot seem to get rid of it. I do not want to admit it, but I feel that this racism is based on something far more primal than culture. I doubt it is even really human, its almost animalistic in its form, I have told myself that these animalistic impulses have and can be eliminated through the exercise of the higher faculties. Through humanity. My humanity has not been able to do so, perhaps it due to some personal flaw which renders me instantly less understanding or human than others, though I reckon it is far more widespread than just me and a few others.

If this is so, does this mean that any feelings or sentiments of "racial" harmony or "ethnic" harmony are really just false and constructed, that they are not really bound up in the laws of nature. That they disallow the most natural of feelings?
Or does this constructed quality really infuse them with a humanness which the laws of nature and being lack, a humanness which is vital for a man to be whole? Do I need such constructs of society? I feel the answer is yes, if not to make me feel good then to ensure my survival for I lack the individual strength to go out and face nature alone, I reckon I need these constructed and socially instilled feelings.

But it does not change the fact that I can perceive them to be constructed and against nature, that this racism is embedded deep within human evolution and thus my nature. Unfortunately this must mean that I can never rid myself of racists thoughts, though I might banish them into the darkest and deepest recesses of the mind, out of reach on conscious thought.

I hope you all can prove me wrong.

[Papewaio]

Checks to see if you are racist.

Go to the babe thread.
Do you like any of the babes not of your own race? Y/N

Go to a local mall, check out the food mall.
Do you like any of the food not of your own race? Y/N

Do you like any sports not born of your own race? Y/N
Athletes not of your own race? Y/N
Cars etc.

If you consistently get N, check first that you are not a Tasmanian and hence that your wife is not your sister. As all no's will either be that you have inbred or racist tendancies.

=][=

All honesty we compete against individuals, tribes, clans, countries. But quite often we will find bits and pieces of other cultures that we like and dislike.

Not liking something is not akin to racism. If you don't like a hot food because it is too spicey that does not make one a racist. If you like the hot food but will not eat it because someone not of your ethnic group made it then you would be on that slope.

A lot of our responses are knee jerk reactions made for us to respond in times of trouble. We notice far more easily differences in our environment then things that are the same, it is a survivial technique that still has its place.

In general I find a lot of racists are espousing victim culture. The blame others for their situation by race/class/environment, never themselves. At the same time saying that their culure (selectively filtered but not admitted to) is superior to all others and in no way can improve by interacting with a 'lesser' version.

If you can hang out with others with different opinions and learn from them, then I doubt you have much to worry about. Just make sure you are comparing apples with apples. I'm sure you wouldn't want the world basing British culture on soccer holigans.

[Fragony]

And the irony there is that it is activist moral outrage that you yourself are always selling .
Well more accurately activist moral outrage and complete bollox , like for example.....
....in case your unthinking mind forgot , that like most of the "OMG its the Muslims" stories you constantly post was complete nonsense , it never actually happened , it was a fabrication that originated with a BNP activist and found itself repeated by the errrr....liberal media:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Yes it did, saying bollox three time doesn't make it not true, doesn't work that way it isn't the bloody mary, bollox can't be summoned. And I definatily take Hirsi Ali and Hans Jansen over a confused stockholm-syndrome Israeli in search for friends. Anyways, that's just one out of many, yep Bat is definatily spot on. All carefully documented, read the book.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Ah, the inchoate rage of advancing years. Believe me, this feeling only gets worse with age. :shame:


Yes, a classic symptom of "mid-life crisis". Reminds me of a song lyric..."oh yeah, life goes on, long after the thrill of living is gone."

[Adrian II]

If this is so, does this mean that any feelings or sentiments of "racial" harmony or "ethnic" harmony are really just false and constructed, that they are not really bound up in the laws of nature. That they disallow the most natural of feelings?But aren't ethnic or racial identities just as artificial...?

You should read up on Freud, particularly his Civilization and its Discontents. The main thesis is that man's primary instincts (including tribal solidarity) are usually suppressed in the interest of civilized existence, but that their remnants cause permanent discontent in the individual. Man is by nature not a very pleasant creature, and 'culture has to call up every possible reinforcement in order to erect barriers against the aggressive instincts of men and hold their manifestations in check by reaction-formations in men's minds'. A nice paradox here, says Freud, is that tribal societies (i.e. societies that give in to man's tribal urges) were usually more repressive than modern western societies of his time. This is because they have to repress all sorts of other primal urges that would endanger tribal unity. There is a lesson in there for racists.

I never debate racists on the basis of their views about other races. I tackle their views about what life would be in their racially pure paradise. Turns out they usually haven't given it a thought.

[Tribesman]

Yes it did, saying bollox three time doesn't make it not true
It never happened Frag , there was a big discussion on it , don't you remember ?:dizzy2:


Anyways, that's just one out of many
What ? you mean one of the many when you peddle a bunch of falsehoods , get shown that they are not true , then on a regular basis repeat the lies and insist that they are really true ?
Yes frag it is just one of the many .:oops:



yep Bat is definatily spot on. All carefully documented, read the book.


All carefully documented ?:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: she was shown to be inventing figures for her "documentary" evidence .
Tell you what Frag , why don't you go and read La France Juive . Its exactly the same "spot on" and "all carefully documented" crap as you are trying to sell others after swallowing the "Eurabia" theory hook line and sinker .
Does Bat Ye'or have a point ? Yes
Does she make it well ? No
Is she credible ? No
Is the point she was trying to make completely undermined by her bias , exagerations and outright falsehoods ? Yes .
A bit like yourself then , as Adrian says you do have a valid point to make . Yet by your own ridiculous claims and outright falsehoods you show that you are unable to make the point at all .

[Fragony]

No not inventing, some numbers on breeding are controversial and maybe a bit too high, but what the critics forgot is that most import their wives/husbands, with 3 children average, 2 of these will import his wive/husbands so they might not be so off. As for that discussion, I remember you saying bollox, but as I said bollox can't be summoned it doesn't magically appear when you say it's name. After a while you went casting big fat balls of bollox somewhere else and thread died.

Doesn't really matter if there are flaws in it by the way, it comes down to that these resolutions are real and that the islamisation of europe is an coordinated attempt not just a bag full of foolishness.

[Tribesman]

No not inventing, some numbers on breeding are controversial and maybe a bit too high
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
If they were well documented they would not be contraversial and there wouldn't be questions about them "maybe" not being in any way accurate:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


Doesn't really matter if there are flaws in it by the way
It doesn't matter ??????
A theory can be put forward .
Minor flaws may make some aspects of that theory questionable .
Major flaws throughout the theory encompassing just about every aspect of it makes the theory a load of bollox .

If I might quote one of your countymen on this book you consider as the accurate truth on the "islamic conspiracy"

That's a good one, I read the book and the characterisation is spot on. Like antisemites, this lady lies, makes things up and misinterprets documents and statements in such a massive way that it would take a book ten times the size of hers to begin to refute it. And it is no use, it is a book for believers, people who are already convinced of a conspiracy, and every counter-argument you make only proves that you are a dupe or a part of the conspiracy.

[Fragony]

We are talking about the birth-rate issue right? Now don't pin me down on this, but if I remember correctly she is talking about a rise in population, that doesn't just happens because of birth-rates but also import weddings. Don't really care what AdrianII thinks about it, do I believe it? Yep, guilty. Me believer.

I think you mean this; no you don't

His logic is flawed, it's a combination of immigration and breeding.

edit, got you the wrong thing, no not that either

I screw up again; I'll just take it from wiki

Justin Vaisse says the book intends to debunk "four myths of the alarmist school." Using Muslims in France as an example, he says:
The Muslim population is not growing as fast as the scenario claims, since the fertility rate of immigrants declines[27]
Muslims are not a monolithic or cohesive group[28]
Muslims do seek to integrate politically and socially
Despite their numbers, Muslims have little influence on foreign policy

[Adrian II]

And we're back to breeding, another favourite topic of racists. I don't care about the flawed statistics that are being used. It's the flawed claims and assumptions behind them that we should tackle.

Bat Ye'or's claims are indeed reminiscent of the old anti-Semitic claim that Jews breed and spread 'like vermin' at the expense of their host countries. Same logic, different enemy of choice.

Muslim fornication is part of the conspiracy of the Euro-Arabian elite, you see. Of the “war of political and cultural subversion, undertaken by [Europe’s] own politicians, media, and intellectuals to hand the continent over to Muslims", as Bat claims. This conspiracy is apparently driven by an obscure group of politicians called the Euro-Arab Dialogue (EAD) whose “occult machinery” is “engineer[ing] Europe’s irreversible transformation through hidden channels.”

So, like the Jewish 'conspiracy' of old, these traitors are "everywhere". The myth that Jews are 'everywhere' (meaning in positions of power) is what used to set anti-Semitism apart from all other forms of racism. Instead of being looked down upon like blacks, asians or native Americans, the Jews were looked up and admired as well as feard and hated for their supposed clever take-over of host societies.

Tribesman is venturing deep into this fruitcake territory to smoke out the worst of Bat's idiocies. That is commendable, but I won't follow him this time. It's tedious and useless to discuss with closed minds.

[Fragony]

And we're back to breeding, another favourite topic of racists.\

And we are back at racism, excuse me if I don't adore islam and don't want to live in an islamic country. Breeding yes, even if fertality-rates are dropping there is still exponential growth because they get kids at an earlier age, and majority of these kids get there partner from abroad. 1+1=2. If it's refutable then refute it instead of dragging in the jews at their hair. And if you will excuse me, the hunger has returned to my brains I got to beat up some immigrants, gaat u maar rustig slapen.

[PanzerJaeger]

And we're back to breeding, another favourite topic of racists. I don't care about the flawed statistics that are being used. It's the flawed claims and assumptions behind them that we should tackle.

Bat Ye'or's claims are indeed reminiscent of the old anti-Semitic claim that Jews breed and spread 'like vermin' at the expense of their host countries. Same logic, different enemy of choice.

Muslim fornication is part of the conspiracy of the Euro-Arabian elite, you see. Of the “war of political and cultural subversion, undertaken by [Europe’s] own politicians, media, and intellectuals to hand the continent over to Muslims", as Bat claims. This conspiracy is apparently driven by an obscure group of politicians called the Euro-Arab Dialogue (EAD) whose “occult machinery” is “engineer[ing] Europe’s irreversible transformation through hidden channels.”

So, like the Jewish 'conspiracy' of old, these traitors are "everywhere". The myth that Jews are 'everywhere' (meaning in positions of power) is what used to set anti-Semitism apart from all other forms of racism. Instead of being looked down upon like blacks, asians or native Americans, the Jews were looked up and admired as well as feard and hated for their supposed clever take-over of host societies.

Tribesman is venturing deep into this fruitcake territory to smoke out the worst of Bat's idiocies. That is commendable, but I won't follow him this time. It's tedious and useless to discuss with closed minds.


There it is. Can we cite this one as Godwin's Law? Nazis are only implied, not specifically mentioned. :shrug:

In any event, I don't recall any militant Jewish groups blowing up trains and such, so things aren't exactly as you portray them. ~;)

[Adrian II]

There it is. Can we cite this one as Godwin's Law? Nazis are only implied, not specifically mentioned. :shrug:

In any event, I don't recall any militant Jewish groups blowing up trains and such, so things aren't exactly as you portray them. ~;)Things aren't exactly as you suggest either.

There are clear parallels between anti-Semitic thinking and the conspiracy theory of Bat Ye-or, whether Mr Godwin will allow for it or not. One of the parallels is that they are closed circles, it is no use arguing with the adepts for reasons stated.

Of course Godwin's law can be invoked as a way to divert attentiona and to evade discussion of anti-Semitism at all costs. Wouldn't that suit you marvellously, Mr Panzerjeager? It doesn't suit me and I don't give a hoot.

[HoreTore]

In any event, I don't recall any militant Jewish groups blowing up trains and such, so things aren't exactly as you portray them. ~;)

Then you have a bad memory. Though that would be ok, since you didn't live at that time :laugh4:

[InsaneApache]

Aye the Stern gang murdered quite a few Brits. It caused a furore at the time. Something along the lines of, " After all we've done for them!".

[PBI]

Can we cite this one as Godwin's Law?


http://xkcd.com/261/

[Louis VI the Fat]

oh yeah, life goes on, long after the thrill of living is gone.Mellencamp! :jumping:

Though the lesser to Springsteen, still one of the gods in my pantheon. Great chroniqueurs of American life. Thanks to them, I still think that New Jersey and Seymour, Indiana (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=3eDkAG3R0h8), are the most romantic places on earth. :smitten:


Are you a fan, or is the quote accidental?