Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

[Adrian II]

So who else isn't watching this stupendous display of trivia and hysteria? You aan I are probably the only ones and we may not even agree on the reason why we don't watch.

I don't watch because the games are kitsch. They represent power politics, big money and chauvinism and have nothing to do with sports, certainly not amateur sports, although they profess to be about nothing but the latter.

Feng Jianzhong, deputy chief of the Chinese Sports Affairs Bureau, has stated that the last candidate to bear the Olympic torch would 'represent the image of China, can communicate with the world and can show the Olympic spirit.' Well, Mr Li Ning, of Li Ning Sportswear Ltd, certainly did. His company made a handsome profit on the Hong Kong stock exchange this week. And not only the fireworks were fake, so was the singing of the Chinese hymn. No doubt most sports victories are fake, too, although you never know which one until the drugs tests are in, the corrupt judges are smoked out (which they never are) and the real women are separated from the steroid hybrids.

Call me oldfashioned, but to me it's simply distasteful to see all those vain, empty-headed sports figures assembling in one of the world's worst dictatorships and doing their inane little routines with balls and spears and stuff, and all the world is watching it on tv and going 'aaah', oblivious of the millions of slaves in China's camp system, some of whom live not far from Beijing since they had to help build some of the facilities.

Bah. At least the Roman circuses were the real deal, they weren't effeminate celebrations of commercialism that destroyed the manly spirit of the observers; they inspired them to face wounds and death scornfully, to celebrate the glory and victory even of criminals and slaves as long as they demonstrated aptitude, courage and persistence.

But wait, the Chinese have Christians, don't they? Why don't they throw some of them to the pandas lions? They kill them in prisons, underground cellars and work camps, so why not in public?

[Lemur]

I have a wife. Women love them some Olympics. So no, I can't ignore the corrupt little show entirely. But I'm doing my best.

It's nothing against China on my part, however. I always try to ignore the Olympics. Sports are meant to be played, not watched on the freaking couch.

[Warmaster Horus]

I don't watch 'em. I find it boring, and with some afterthought to be exactly what you described them as: power politics, etc.

Also because practically all the "competitors" have steroids pumped in them, probably.

[InsaneApache]

I've managed to miss all the events so far, even the opening ceremony, so consider it a job well done. Now and again I hear summat on't radio about whining syncro divers but that's about all....

Who's winning?

As if I care :campfire:

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Olympics? I'm enthralled!

I can't wait until we smash the Yanks at the men's 4 x 100 relay swimming final.


look it up. :shame:

[Xiahou]

I've managed to miss all the events so far, even the opening ceremony, so consider it a job well done.Ditto. :yes:

[Viking]

Well the olympics shows China from its best sides (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4512250.ece)



The cute little girl whose sweet-voiced rendition of one of China’s favourite revolutionary anthems started off the Olympic opening ceremony performance may not have been all that she seemed. Little Lin Miaoke, it has been revealed, was only lip-synching.

Officials have now admitted that the voice that rang out through the vast Bird’s Nest stadium was really that of seven-year-old Yang Peiyi, who may have had the voice of an angel but whose crooked teeth made her unsuitable for the opening ceremony's top spot.

[...]

Chen Qigang, music director for the ceremony said in an online article: “Little Yang Peiyi’s failure to be selected was mainly because of her appearance, because we were concerned with the interests of the nation.”

Communism and equality at its best, surely. :laugh4:

[Spino]

I think I've caught about 15-20 minutes of the Olympics since it started.

While I also despise the diva/celebrity aura surrounding modern athletes (and their awful egos and attitudes) I am quite comfortable with the presence of displaced/projected nationalism in the games. Politics and nationalism has always been part of the Olympics since the day the games were first held way back when.

I lost interest in the Olympics when I hit my late teens. My apathy increased when they opened the Olympics up to professional athletes who were living off fat team contracts and piles of cash from commercial sponsors. There was something special about watching amateurs busting their hump to train, perform and compete at world class levels. Also, there was an added level of excitement due in no small part to the whole 'Cold War/East vs. West' thing. My most recent beef with the Olympics is the insistence on incorporating every silly sport under the sun into the games.

[Ice]

The Olympics? I'm enthralled!

I can't wait until we smash the Yanks at the men's 4 x 100 relay swimming final.


look it up. :shame:

That was the one where the 1-5th place teams all broke the records, right?

Oh yeah, tell your countrymen not to brag until it's a sure thing :2thumbsup:

I've been watching a lot of the Olympics. It's good entertainment to see quality athletes.

[Adrian II]

There are more of us than I thought. :2thumbsup:

Mind if I join you guys around that campfire? Let me tell you the story about Adrian's rowing days at university. It only cost me time and money, buckets of em, I had to puke at the end of practically all our daily training hours and I never won anything. And I had a great time!

[drone]

Haven't watched any of it. Even before I got cynical about the commercialized aspects of the Games, the Summer Olympics never really appealed to me anyway. The Winter Games are more fun to watch, but I don't really care too much about them these days either.

For grins though, a 2008 Summer Games Humor Item (http://www.smh.com.au/news/off-the-field/bills-blue-screen-of-death-malfunction/2008/08/12/1218306871673.html). :2thumbsup:

[Adrian II]

For grins though, a 2008 Summer Games Humor Item (http://www.smh.com.au/news/off-the-field/bills-blue-screen-of-death-malfunction/2008/08/12/1218306871673.html). :2thumbsup:IRQL-not-less-or-equal! I know that screen!

:grin::grin: (your grins)

EDIT
According to that article even the Chinese know that Vista is crap. :mellow:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Count me among the disinterested. I might be distracted if there was reasonable coverage of the fencing, but pretty much everything else leaves me cold.

I'm much happier spending my time over the next few days blowing tiny birds out of a wet, grey sky.

[Adrian II]

Some of the stories are hilarious though. Anyone else seen the story about the government cheering squads?


The specially trained cheerleading teams have been kitted out in identical bright yellow t-shirts with Communist-red collars.

Each 'fan' has been issued with two inflatable red and yellow clapping batons, which co-ordinate with their shirts.

Sitting together among the foreign tourists who wear an array of clothes, they appear as solid yellow blocks with both their shirts and sticks mirroring the colours of the national flag.

Bashing the inflated PVC sticks together in a frenzy of national fervour to make a surprisingly loud noise, some of the 'volunteers' even appear to enjoy being 'supporters'.

linky (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2546555/Beijing-Olympic-supporter-squads-drilled-in-the-art-of-diplomatic-cheering.html)
God, what a pathetic show. :laugh4:

Well, mundus vult decipi..

[InsaneApache]

Count me among the disinterested. I might be distracted if there was reasonable coverage of the fencing, but pretty much everything else leaves me cold.

Would that be the interlocking link or razor wire? :inquisitive: Curious minds need satiating.

[Abokasee]

I've missed all the events, including the opening, except the paired diving (The Russians ****ed up big time there) but otherwise I've avoided 100%, apparently the British got gold for Cycling (It was raining :laugh4:)

Unfortunatly, it is to do more with Politics than Sport these days.

And the next Olympics? I can confirm, that we are 100%, positively, absolutely guarenteed, no questions asked, no doubts, not a word of a lie, be READY by 2013 :laugh4:

[Adrian II]

[..] apparently the British got gold for Cycling (It was raining :laugh4:)Well, that sums it up for me, too. Some Dutch athlete lost and told the press he 'wasn't ready' for the match. I mean, he could see it coming for a full eight years - how can you not be ready? :laugh3:

[Innocentius]

I watched the opening ceremony since the idea of China showing off appealed to me (and it turned out to be pretty decent entertainment, although I switched channel during the songs and speeches). I haven't watched the rest and will not watch it either, for the same reason I have never watched a single Olympics: Sports suck.

Find me something less interesting than people moving, I dare you.

[Faust|]

Find me something less interesting than people moving, I dare you.

You might be sorry you asked that...

[KarlXII]

I refuse to watch the Olympics due to symbolic opposition to the Chinese government. Tibet, the human rights record, the pollution, the fact they closed factories and moved homes etc.

[InsaneApache]

Originally Posted by Innocentius
Find me something less interesting than people moving, I dare you.

PRon.

[Viking]

PRon.

:inquisitive:

[HoreTore]

I see no reason to watch any other sport than football. Why torture myself with lesser entertainment?

[yesdachi]

I am not a big fan of the Olympics and I don’t think China should have gotten to host it this year (on the bright side maybe the attention will help them become a better country) but I am a man who loves “current events” and the Olympics are a big deal around here so I have seen some and will see probably see some more, especially if I notice women’s beach volleyball is on, for some reason that really appeals to me. ~D
That tall Chinese girl is H-O-T!

I really don’t care at all for the common sports like basketball but I enjoy seeing some of the ones that don’t get much spotlight. I watched some archery, skeet shooting and fencing the other day and it was interesting.

I know its commercialized but what isn’t? I’ll watch some and take it for what its worth.

[Adrian II]

More humour from the Games!

Spain's Olympic basketball team posed for an advertisement prior to the Games which appears to show all its players slanting their eyes, a move that could offend its Olympic hosts in Beijing. The ads, for a Spanish courier company, appeared in the Spanish-language newspaper La Marca.

As the uproar over the picture has grown today, more information about the advertising shot has come to light. The New York Times reports that Spain's basketball team is sponsored by Li-Ning Footwear, a Chinese company founded by (drumroll) Li Ning, the final torchbearer who was hoisted along the top of Beijing National Stadium during the Olympic Opening Ceremony finale. The ad reportedly references the Spanish team recently extending their contract with the footwear giant for another four years.

linky (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Spanish-basketball-team-poses-for-offensive-pict?urn=oly,100152)

Like I said, Mr Li Ning truly embodies the Olympic spirit! https://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9818/rofl1bp6.gif (https://imageshack.us)

[CountArach]

I'm only watching the cycling events because that is the only sport I am interested in.

[BigTex]

I'll watch when MMA makes it's return to the Olympics. Till then very little captures my attention.

Not to mention the Olympics, a celebration of peace and freedoms, is being held in a repressive regime with a stadium built on slave labor. Staying away from this circus act this year.

[Crazed Rabbit]

More humour from the Games!

Spain's Olympic basketball team posed for an advertisement prior to the Games which appears to show all its players slanting their eyes, a move that could offend its Olympic hosts in Beijing. The ads, for a Spanish courier company, appeared in the Spanish-language newspaper La Marca.

As the uproar over the picture has grown today, more information about the advertising shot has come to light. The New York Times reports that Spain's basketball team is sponsored by Li-Ning Footwear, a Chinese company founded by (drumroll) Li Ning, the final torchbearer who was hoisted along the top of Beijing National Stadium during the Olympic Opening Ceremony finale. The ad reportedly references the Spanish team recently extending their contract with the footwear giant for another four years.

linky (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Spanish-basketball-team-poses-for-offensive-pict?urn=oly,100152)

Like I said, Mr Li Ning truly embodies the Olympic spirit! https://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9818/rofl1bp6.gif (https://imageshack.us)

Wow, that Spanish team ... are they still in grade school or what? Why would they pull something like that?

And this Olympics, for all its flaws, did cause me to jump and yell "YES!" when the US won the 4x100 relay. What a great moment.

CR

[Hosakawa Tito]

Forget the Olympics. You want entertainment watch this show. Most Extreme Elimination Challenge (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdPWfFsrgf4)

[DemonArchangel]

I'm Chinese, the Chinese are my people, and I strongly support them. Problem is, like many other members of TW.org, I find the Olympics to be boring (also, the Bird's Nest was *NOT* constructed with Slave Labor, I visited the construction site this winter as they were building it, the PRC wouldn't trust the building of the stadium to slave labor). They should add some form of Parkour to the Olympics (or something more death defying than the traditional sports at least), then I'll watch.

[LittleGrizzly]

I managed to watch a few seconds, sue barker (i think thats her name) was talking and saying about a bunch of events on at that moment, cycling, judo, a few other crappy sports and football, BBC then switched over to the judo and i switched off in disgust!!

TBH up until that moment i turned the tv on i had forgotten the olympics where even on, i think i knew they where soon but i honestly hadn't realised it had started (or my memorys is getting really bad) i can't pertend that its anything to do with the hosts, i generally find the olympics very boring anyway, the mens 100m sprint is of slight interest and outside of that its probably only the football, and i have never actually seen football at the oylmpics so im kind of assuming it gets really crappy coverage.... seems to be more interest in throwing stick and stones (practice for ww4 maybe ?) or the hop skip and jump, to sum it up the olympics mostly bore the crap out of me...

[PanzerJaeger]

I don't watch because its boring, has tons of commercials, and putting lipstick on a disgustingly overpopulated and polluted communist hell hole doesn't make it any better looking (or less prone to slaughter dissidents). I'm forced to support CHINA enough every time I go to the mall, I don't need to be awwed at their ability to spend 40 billion child-labor earned dollars and build a stadium that doesn't fall to crap - like everything else they build.

I did check out the medal count though, and to my surprise we are currently beating the communists 25 to 21. I'm shocked, as I know they're pulling every dirty trick out of their book to demonstrate how superior CHINA is. Kudos to South Korea as well! :bow:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

America has more medals than China, but as of August 13th, China is first in the medal count. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Summer_Olympics_medal_count)

[Marshal Murat]

EMFM, could you amend yours by adding the word "Gold" somewhere in there?

[LittleGrizzly]

Can someone explain to me how theres been 58 gold medals won, 58 silver medals won... but somehow 69 bronze medals won.... im probably missing something obvious here...

Edit: moment of clarity reveals that bronze medal winners are sometimes figured out before gold and silver medalists are...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

EMFM, could you amend yours by adding the word "Gold" somewhere in there?

Well, I suppose technically China is first in the medal count based on some points system. Don't ask me, I don't make the charts.

[DemonArchangel]

Can someone explain to me how theres been 58 gold medals won, 58 silver medals won... but somehow 69 bronze medals won.... im probably missing something obvious here...

Edit: moment of clarity reveals that bronze medal winners are sometimes figured out before gold and silver medalists are...

Certain events award 2 bronze medals instead of 1.

[LittleGrizzly]

Didn't know that, is it the equivelent of 2 world cup semi finalists both being given a bronze..

[Papewaio]

I did check out the medal count though, and to my surprise we are currently beating the communists 25 to 21. I'm shocked, as I know they're pulling every dirty trick out of their book to demonstrate how superior CHINA is. Kudos to South Korea as well! :bow:

Not even close. The ranking is gold, then silver then bronze. Bronze does not equal gold outside of childcare facilities ~;). ~:) Mind you I have argued for a per capita ranking... slight reason for a bias... that way Australia's 4 Golds is equivalent to China having about 250 gold medals...

Yeap, watching the Olympics. A shame that when I see a record broken I think 'Wow, how long before those drugs are found?".

As a form of entertainment they can be great. As a way of 'measuring' the respective successes of different government system they are about as accurate as GDP or BMI. A rule of thumb at best, a casual hand wave more likely then a clinically accurate form of stat.

I prefer to see money being spent on sporting facilities, tourism and language development then for weapons facilities, political prisons and spooks. Then again I would prefer more money spent on science and arts and a Computer game Olympics.

I watch and sometimes I get to see what I really like behind the glitz and ego. Sportsmanship and some truly humble athletes breaking themselves apart and trying with all their might to just finish.

Eddie the Eagle and others of his ilk are the ones to watch for. The marathon's never fail to please in seeing someone push themselves to the wall. I like seeing people push past their physical limits, making a PB and all through hard work and willpower. The drug cheats diminish from this... that is why it is often good to see the amateurs at the back of the pack pushing on.

http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/beijing-auckland/2008/8/13/sports-can-cross-natural-boundaries/?c_id=502

[ajaxfetish]

My primary reason for not watching is not having a TV at home--kind of makes it tricky. Saw some of the gymnastics and swimming on Sunday, but the 'human interest' stories seemed even more rampant than usual. It seems an awful waste when there are so many events they don't even spend time covering.

Ajax

[Tratorix]

Haven't really been watching. All they show on T.V. around here is swimming and diving anyway. The only thing about the Olympics I follow is Hockey during the winter games.

[Adrian II]

I'm Chinese, the Chinese are my people, and I strongly support them.Do you also support the regime? China is certainly the record-holder for suppression during the Olympic Games. Today more protesters were arrested for unfolding a flag about Tibet, i.e. for simply expressing their opinions. Another journalist was roughed up. Tourists can't take a picture of Tienanman Square without being stopped, harassed or whisked away by some illiterate idiot in a uniform. How can a Chinese be proud of this zombie circus with drilled supporters, faked hymns and corrupt party bosses? In their place I would be deeply ashamed.

[Rhyfelwyr]

90% of Olympic sports would bore me to sleep. From all the fuss China's making, you would think they're hosting the World Cup. I don't hear of people rushing home from work to watch the javelin event. I don't see pubs filling up because everyone wants to see a 400m relay. I don't see huge screens being put up all over the place because everyone wants to see how far someone can throw a discuss. And I don't see many children playing Olympic sports all day because they want to be like their Olypmic heroes.

Haha, China's dicatators have got conned into spending billions because they think the whole western world is watching how great their nation is.

I heard they've got so desperate they're getting volunteers to fill up the empty stands. :laugh4:

[Meneldil]

Haha, China's dicatators have got conned into spending billions because they think the whole western world is watching how great their nation is.



That's the funny part yeah. They're doing all that crap to show the rest of the world how great China is, yet they look like pathetic monkeys.

[LittleGrizzly]

Haha, China's dicatators have got conned into spending billions because they think the whole western world is watching how great their nation is.

Its our way of slowing down chinese growth, were going to throw sporting events at them until the bankrupt themselves showing us how developed they are

[Adrian II]

They're doing all that crap to show the rest of the world how great China is, yet they look like pathetic monkeys.If by 'pathetic monkeys' you mean the regime and its sports and business cronies, I totally agree. My take on Chinese people in general however is totally different. I hope my posts are clear as to the distinction.

[yesdachi]

I wonder…
Will there be a recall on the medals due to lead based paint concerns? :inquisitive:

[DemonArchangel]

Do you also support the regime? China is certainly the record-holder for suppression during the Olympic Games. Today more protesters were arrested for unfolding a flag about Tibet, i.e. for simply expressing their opinions. Another journalist was roughed up. Tourists can't take a picture of Tienanmen Square without being stopped, harassed or whisked away by some illiterate idiot in a uniform. How can a Chinese be proud of this zombie circus with drilled supporters, faked hymns and corrupt party bosses? In their place I would be deeply ashamed.

Let's take this one by one:

1.) Do I support the regime? My family is heavily involved in the regime and ranks quite highly in it. I fully support it. The regime has done a lot of good things for China too. :China:

2.) Please use the designated protest zones for unfurling flags about Tibet. Also, please shut up about Tibet. As a reference, try to imagine if Wyoming tried to secede from the United States, and kicked up a :daisy: on the international media every time the US govt. tried to stop it. Another way to look at it is that you know the Dutch would have held onto Indonesia if they had the forces to do so.

3.) The police are hardly illiterate. Also, the Chinese aren't the only people to randomly arrest people for taking pictures of landmarks. I recall it is a prominent practice in the United States too.

4.) Congratulations, you've pretty much described *all* the Olympics. Zombie circus precisely describes why I'm not watching the Olympics either. Ever since I started Parkour, I realized just how meaningless most Olympic events are. Sports are meant to be played, not watched.

5.) Li Ning was picked as the guy to light the torch not because he was rich. That acrobatic wire stunt takes an enormous amount of strength to pull off, and in the intervening years between his Olympic performances and now, Mr. Li has kept himself in the best of shape, allowing himself to actually complete something as insane as doing a sideways lap across the stadium. Also, he himself is a 3 time gold medalist in gymnastics.

6.) Little Grizzly: Surprisingly, most of the Olympic budget was to build vital infrastructure that was badly needed. And speaking of bankruptcy, I wonder just how London will fund the 2012 Olympics.

[InsaneApache]

I heard that Albert Speer Junr. built the stadium. A triumph of the will indeed!*

An ITN journo was jumped by the Sturmabteilung and thrown into the back of a van, where they beat his hands. That'll teach the nosey bugger...

A view from the Times...


These people: they jump in a pool, they swim, sometimes they dive, or they do both. Good on 'em, if it's what they want to do: even I can see the achievement in being the fastest in the world, if that is your ambition. But must we all join in the pretence that the shenanigans in Beijing are important in any way for the rest of the country; that the Games tell us anything of any consequence about humanity, about ourselves, about our nation?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/alice_miles/article4517692.ece

*No thread is complete without a Godwin or two.

[Adrian II]

Also, please shut up about Tibet.Thank heavens your trained monkeys have no say in this forum and I can bloody well speak as I want to. And thank heavens no one in the free world is impressed by the displays of suffocating obedience and mass kow-towing and drilling surrounding these games. Whenever such regimes try to convey an image of hospitality and national harmony to the world, they make utter fools of themselves and that of China is no exception.

[DemonArchangel]

Thank heavens your trained monkeys have no say in this forum and I can bloody well speak as I want to. And thank heavens no one in the free world is impressed by the displays of suffocating obedience and mass kow-towing and drilling surrounding these games. Whenever such regimes try to convey an image of hospitality and national harmony to the world, they make utter fools of themselves and that of China is no exception.


No, you can think what you want about Tibet. Just stop talking about it. That's the only thing that comes to the lips of every sinophobe ever. China has tons and tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of problems you can focus on. Tibet isn't one of them.

[LittleGrizzly]

6.) Little Grizzly: Surprisingly, most of the Olympic budget was to build vital infrastructure that was badly needed. And speaking of bankruptcy, I wonder just how London will fund the 2012 Olympics.

It was not a serious point, don't worry most of britian will be fine, its Londoners that have to fund the olympics

[Adrian II]

No, you can think what you want about Tibet. Just stop talking about it. That's the only thing that comes to the lips of every sinophobe ever. China has tons and tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of problems you can focus on. Tibet isn't one of them.Oh sure, China has tons and tons of self-imposed problems, and Tibet is only one of them. I know it makes you and your family and every so-called loyal Chinese mad as hell to hear about Tibet day and night, at every street corner, in every newspaper, every internet discussion. Here you are organizing the Olympic Games, and Tibet demonstrators follow your torch all across the world, manhandle it, ridicule it, even snuff it. hahaha, I love it. And it's not going to stop, ever - until Tibet gets a decent deal, which is inevitably going to be part of wider reforms that put an end to the horrible official slavery in your country. No dumb light show in a stadium will ever efface the truth.

[DemonArchangel]

Oh sure, China has tons and tons of self-imposed problems, and Tibet is only one of them. I know it makes you and your family and every so-called loyal Chinese mad as hell to hear about Tibet day and night, at every street corner, in every newspaper, every internet discussion. Here you are organizing the Olympic Games, and Tibet demonstrators follow your torch all across the world, manhandle it, ridicule it, even snuff it. hahaha, I love it. And it's not going to stop, ever - until Tibet gets a decent deal, which is inevitably going to be part of wider reforms that put an end to the horrible official slavery in your country. No dumb light show in a stadium will ever efface the truth.

What truth? That the Tibetans are bunch of savage primitives tamed only with the lash? They're certainly not the peace loving hippies the west makes them out to be. China has every right to conquer Tibet, just like how the Netherlands has every right to conquer... oh wait, it's too weak to hold onto its own colonies. I know full well, and so do the Chinese people, what China is doing is imperialism, plain and simple. I still support it, because it's the right thing to do. I'm actually surprised at the level of mercy the Chinese government has show in Tibet, when we simply could have killed them all, sort of like what the Europeans did to the African natives. You only want Tibet to get a decent deal to weaken China so that maybe, your pathetic collection of reclaimed islands jutting out of the North Sea will have a chance at glory again. Very few people actually care about human rights, and most of those only do so out of their own national self interest. I seriously doubt you actually care about the Tibetans, so much as you are alarmed by China's power. And if you do care about the Tibetans, you are a deluded fool for thinking they are a good and peaceful people.

[naut]

I am glad to say, I haven't seen any of it. YEY! No boring drugged up uber-men/uber-women running/swimming/jumping in circles.

[Hosakawa Tito]

World politics aside, and on a more personal note...I am looking forward to the women's pole vault competition. The US Champion, Jenn Stuczynski, is a local gal, and I remember her playing highschool sports, basketball & track, against my oldest daughter's team.

[LittleGrizzly]

What truth? That the Tibetans are bunch of savage primitives tamed only with the lash? They're certainly not the peace loving hippies the west makes them out to be. China has every right to conquer Tibet, just like how the Netherlands has every right to conquer... oh wait, it's too weak to hold onto its own colonies.

The impression i am getting from your whole 'speech' is a pathetic teenager who is using his country as a penis measuring device..... on the topic of penis measuring remind me exactly who it was that stopped japan slaughtering and raping your citizens en masse....

[Marshal Murat]

How about we talk of Darfur and the Sudanese forces, backed and armed by the Chinese military?
Maybe Myanmar, where junta forces restricted food because they feared all those capitalistic ideas?
Taiwan, where they can't even carry their own flag into a stadium because it's a political statement?
The corruption of local governors and magistrates whose inadequate control ensures graft and crime?
Maybe the lax or nonexistent safety standards that China has concerning exports?


when we simply could have killed them (Tibetans) all, sort of like what the Europeans did to the African natives.

If Europeans killed all the Africans, why are there still Africans?

[DemonArchangel]

Little Grizzly: Certainly not the Dutch.

Murat: Hey, congratulations, you listed a bunch of things I disapprove of (instead of randomly jumping to Tibet). And why are there still Africans? Why are there still Native Americans? The Europeans certainly tried their best to exploit them, that's for certain.

[InsaneApache]

Don't forget about most enlightened of fellows Mr. Mugabe.

[Devastatin Dave]

My 3 year old is in gymnastics, my 5 year old was in gymnastics, so we watch some of it. I usually don't watch but like Lemur, i have a wife, she has a vagina, so she controls the remote. I think its been pretty good so far but I will open my veins the next time I hear Phelp's name!!! That dude pisses me of. He's up there with his team recieving his last medal and chatting and laughing while the National Anthem was playing. POS. For the love of God, the other teams showed more reverance (or it could have been a temperary steroid induced coma). We watched the ladies gymnastics last night and watched one gal with a horse neck (someone check that leatard) total kill the team's chance to win. The again, those little Chinese gals (16 years old? shoot, one gal looked like Dora the explorer in the sun shining in her eyes) kicked ass. I guess they figured they better do good or else.

The saddest part in this whole thing are the folks that don't make it. I was listening to NPR (god help me) the other day and they intervued some Chinese chick that was in her late 20's. She had been training all her life to be a long distance runner by the Chinese Government. She was also in the Chinese Army and was given the choice of training or continueing a more militarily structured life. Well, now she is completely bed-ridden and unable to walk. She lives with her mother. She basically trained so much that she ruined her legs. It was sad because the mother, in front of her daughter, basically called her a waste and a shame to the family. The reporter said there are thousands of stories like this. So it says a lot that so many lives are ruined just for a few days of "glory" on the world stage. Needless to say, my daughter only goes once a week and when we were approached to have her go twice a week in a more intensive program (she's real little for her age and strong) we declined.

There are some good aspects of the Olympics but unfortunately its so watered down with stories like this and the fact that there are just too many sports cramed into it. I'll watch parts of it but not a lot.

One last thing... DemonArchangel, if you're such a happy little commie and have parents living it up as oppressors of the people, why do you live in the US? You should live in your little Utopia that your folks and others like them killed, maimed, and tortured so much for.

[Adrian II]

What truth?If your country had press freedom, then maybe you could discuss it openly and find out what it is.

And instead of your antiquated propaganda talk I prefer to lend my ear to Chinese dissidents. One of the most outspoken is Bao Tong, former aide to the late (and ousted) Chinese premier, Zhao Ziyang. He has been under house arrest for many years, but since they are afraid to kill him he can speak his mind and smuggle his views out. Radio Free Asia published a long essay which he wrote about the Olympic Games in Beijing and the massive oppression that went into them. It's long, but very interesting, particularly since he is a former member of the elite himself.

It is very naive to take the number of gold medals won as an indicator of the rise of China. That sort of patriotism...has nothing to do with the Olympic spirit...There are subtle differences between China and other countries when it comes to the training and selection of athletes. Other countries use athletics as a way of training the body. China uses athletics to snatch prizes.

China has sponsored a top-down professionalized system, a totally segregated approach to athletic training. Non-Chinese may not understand the term "away from production." It has its roots in the Chinese Communist Party's experience of the 1927-37 Chinese civil war, when peasants who relied on the land for their existence took up arms as their revolutionary duty to fight for a share of it. In the process, they were torn away from their families, from the rest of society, and from normal economic activities. They were said to be taken "away from production" to fulfill this task.

China's athletes are chosen as young children...and taken away from their families, from their schools, and totally cut off from normal social activities. The door is closed, and they give up their entire youth and part of their childhoods for the sole aim of entering and winning competitions, an aim for which they are totally re-molded by the system.

Elitist training

China has the largest population of any country in the world, and therefore an unending supply of human resources with which to win glory and acclaim for country and Party. But it is a totally different thing from encouraging ordinary Chinese people to get fitter and healthier.

A gold medal is just a gold medal. It is not of the same order as the well-being of the people, or the fate of the nation. The former Soviet Union won countless gold medals. The gold medals are still there today, but where is the Soviet Union?

China's array of medals and prizes was produced out of the sweat, tears, and lives of generations of athletes and paralympians...You can't use the achievements of our young people to cover up or to dilute the mistakes of the country's leaders.

The Chinese Communist Party has used the Olympics as a way of suppressing all other political duties. It has put all its energy into this for the past decade, emptying out the last drop of strength. All political, economic, propaganda, and diplomatic effort has been channeled into the Olympics. The entire Party and nation has repeated the message about the importance of the Games time and again, an importance which is greater than that of the fight against corruption, disaster relief efforts, human rights, or the livelihood and welfare of ordinary Chinese.

Ordinary citizens pay the price

It is hard to see how the efforts of ordinary people will be repaid. Aside from the more obvious contributions of effort and money from those who have it, there are all those people who have had their land grabbed away from them, or whose homes have been forcibly demolished, or who have been forced to give up their...business. Those who have been forced to return to their hometown as part of the pre-Olympics "clean-up," or those who have been detained against their will. Those who have been forbidden to speak, forbidden to conduct interviews, forbidden to offer legal services, or forbidden from helping people stand up for their civil rights or property.

There is a fly in the ointment, and that lies in the fact that the Chinese government has refused to keep the promises it made to improve human rights and to allow greater press freedom when it applied to host the Games in the first place.

In the eight years since China applied to host the Games, with the continued suppression of human rights and continuing controls on the freedom of the press, those promises have turned into nothing but empty words. And an empty promise is very hard to keep.

Chinese people who have had their rights infringed know it. A lot of the international media know it. Communist Party and government officials know it too, in their heart of hearts. Who would have the gall to propose or second this motion, to talk the empty talk about "the best Olympic Games ever"?

Manufacturing injustice

The best at suppressing the news? Maybe. The best at trampling on people's rights? Perhaps. Even though the curtain has yet to rise on the Olympics, we can say with 100 percent certainty that we have lost all hope of being "the best."

There is one extremely good thing about a one-party system, and that is that it can achieve pretty much anything it wants to. That's why Deng Xiaoping said that China should never go the way of the West, because it was terribly troublesome, and that any attempt to get anything done petered out in argument. That's quite right. Who would have dared to argue with Deng or Mao? That's why Mao announced in 1976 that Deng was an enemy of the people, and why Deng announced in 1989 that Zhao Ziyang was the enemy.

History repeats itself, and the wheel comes full circle. Leaders at every level have to deal with dissenting opinion, and at every level they have the power to brand the other a public enemy. In China, we produce miscarriages of justice and trumped-up charges like a high-intensity industrial zone, rolling them off the conveyor belt at a rate no-one else can match.

We are so efficient at it: Why stop now? It is a task beloved of Chinese officials at every level of leadership. One thing they are particularly good at, for example, is allowing people they like to get rich first. All you need to get a bank loan in the blink of an eye is the favor of a local ranking official. In the blink of another eye, you can acquire a whole state enterprise for the token price of between three and five percent of its market value, which you can then transfer into your own private ownership.

One-party system

In the same blink of the eye, you can get access to a plot of land "approved" for your use, expel a large crowd of people who live on it and farm it, and begin a lucrative career as a property developer. Will anyone make a fuss? Well, that's easy to deal with. In the blink of an eye, anyone making a fuss will have lost their livelihood and received a warning from the authorities. Who will have the courage to publish such a negative news story? That would be revealing state and Party secrets, calling all sorts of trouble down on the heads of the journalist and even the whole newspaper.

In the case of a lawsuit being filed, the lawyer will either be warned off, obstructed at every turn, or have his license to practice taken away, or be convicted himself of a criminal offense. In the case of any mass unrest, the last resort is to send the security forces in to stamp out trouble. There is one of these "mass petitioning incidents" in China every five minutes, 80,000 a year, and they are all the inevitable by-product of a one-party system.

Under today's one-party system, we have a highly efficient system for an exponential increase in the gap between rich and poor, for corruption, state-sponsored robbery, oppression, and for the control of information. All these things fit together seamlessly. This is the human rights record and the state of press freedom against which it will be very hard to gain any improvements. This is the big, bad secret.

The efficiency of the one-party system can be applied in any number of ways. For example, to stop anything from happening that Party leaders do not like. China has been a People's Republic for 59 years now, but we haven't seen any progress in the direction of democracy in any of those years. The only reason China sent a delegate to the United Nations to sign the covenants on human rights back in October 1998 was because of the forthcoming application to host the 2008 Olympics.

Voting with their feet

As soon as the bid was successful, the thing was shoved into the shadows. The National People's Congress was never asked to ratify it. Putting on a show is indeed very efficient. Actually doing something is very inefficient. Thanks to China's one-party system, they really have been able to make a momentary difference to the air quality in Beijing. But as soon as the Games are over, who knows how many lifetimes ordinary Chinese residents will have to wait to get decent air to breathe again.

There is one clear barometer of how good a political system is. It's no good listening to what people say; mouths are very unreliable. You have to look at what the feet are doing. A good system will attract people. People in China may be living quite happily, and foreigners may make light of traveling a thousand miles to visit. But would they want to emigrate here? When they have seen the Olympics, seen the show, and had a chance to understand Chinese people a bit better, and to compare China to their own country, then what? I am certain that while they will say a lot of nice things about China, they are not going to start flooding in to live here. Whereas Chinese people would be leaving in their tens of thousands if the opportunity was there. That is my prediction. History will be the judge of whether I am right or not.

linky (http://www.rfa.org/english/news/baotong-08062008132212.html)

[DemonArchangel]

Indeed. At least the Chinese government wouldn't let him into the country, which is a good first step.

[Andres]

nvm.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Gentlemen,

We seem to have lit an Olympic flame of our own. Allow me to suggest that we allow a Zen-like calm descend upon our furrowed brows before reflecting on any further postings.

This thread was started to share a certain disillusion with the Olympic games as a spectacle, rather than to discuss Chinese politics. I am happy for a new thread to be started on that subject - minus the developing beastliness herein - and for this thread to regain its previous resigned equanimity on the original premise.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

[LittleGrizzly]

Little Grizzly: Certainly not the Dutch.

DA it certainly wasn't the Chinese either, the impression i got from your pathetic little speech was that china deserves these things because it is powerful enough to do so...

So tell me did Japan have the right to kill and rape the chinese at will because it was powerful enough to do so ?

If your answer is yes then my next question would be, if the Chinese goverment somehow loses its power and some power like japan in the 40's comes along and starts doing whatever the hell its likes to the chinese you will be ok with it, because they are powerful enough to do so ?

Or will you complain and ask for assistance similar to tibet now or chinese back in 40's

Don't dare think just because human rights pose no concern for you that other people don't care for them, as far as im concerned they are one of the most important things, i couldn't care less about chinas current power or potential power i do however care very deeply that the goverment of the worlds largest population couldn't give a damn what it does to its people, even if you don't care for your fellow countrymen i do! and i will continue to do so despite the attitudes of chinese such as yourself!

Murat: Hey, congratulations, you listed a bunch of things I disapprove of (instead of randomly jumping to Tibet). And why are there still Africans? Why are there still Native Americans? The Europeans certainly tried their best to exploit them, that's for certain

So clarify for me here... you think the europeans were right to kill lots of people and thats why your ok with the chinese doing it ?

or you know that what europeans did was wrong but support the chinese doing it because the europeans got to do it a few hundred years ago ?

I almost hope you are the victim of the human rights abuses you support so much so you can understand the cruelty and unnessecarity of them, but then i don't wish that on anyone...

[Devastatin Dave]

Also, please shut up about Tibet.

Don't tell him to shutup. He doesn't reside in some oppressed provense where the iron fist of your folks beloved party controls the masses. Did the Chinese government have to teach you how to smile before you came over to the US? That's hillarious that they actually had to tell their own people to smile for this event. What a place to live that you have to have the government tell you when its alright to smile. Sounds like a great place to live to me!!! One more thing, I guess those little chinese girls on the gymnastic team should really be smiling since they didn't get slaughtered by their parents for the hopes of having a boy, or that they havn't been shot or killed for saying anything bad about your parents party. I bet their also happy they got the gold, I shudder to think what will happen to any Chinese athlete that doesn't place in their repective events. You and your government's a joke and I'll say it till I'm blue in the face because, I CAN without having to worry about a bunch of brain washed commie goons coming to kill me or my family for just being a human being with his own beliefs, not some done in a colony of homocidal bees.

[Adrian II]

Gentlemen,

We seem to have lit an Olympic flame of our own. Allow me to suggest that we allow a Zen-like calm descend upon our furrowed brows before reflecting on any further postings.

This thread was started to share a certain disillusion with the Olympic games as a spectacle, rather than to discuss Chinese politics. I am happy for a new thread to be started on that subject - minus the developing beastliness herein - and for this thread to regain its previous resigned equanimity on the original premise.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:As a matter of fact I started this thread to share my disgust at the spectacle against a background of oppression, corruption and deceit. If some posters descend into beastliness, I fail to see why the thread as such should be either closed or reduced to the Games as a spectacle. Maybe someone else could open a thread about the Games as a spectacle. I'll be happy to discuss the original premiss in this thread without any beastliness.

[Devastatin Dave]

Gentlemen,

We seem to have lit an Olympic flame of our own. Allow me to suggest that we allow a Zen-like calm descend upon our furrowed brows before reflecting on any further postings.

This thread was started to share a certain disillusion with the Olympic games as a spectacle, rather than to discuss Chinese politics. I am happy for a new thread to be started on that subject - minus the developing beastliness herein - and for this thread to regain its previous resigned equanimity on the original premise.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

Oops sorry, I type slow and you got this posted before i posted my last post.

So in the spirit of the Olympic...

Good luck DA with your team and...

FREE TIBET!!!!!

[JR-]

i don't have a TV to start with, but i haven't followed the olympics via any means at all.

[DemonArchangel]

Adrian: I know the truth, everyone does. You don't seem to understand the meaning of sacrifice. Also, if the Chinese really wanted Bao Tong dead, if they really wanted to cut off his communications, that essay would never have gotten to Radio Free Asia, because Bao Tong would be in a camp in Xinjiang, chipping at rocks with a screwdriver for the rest of his life instead of being able to sit in his house and publish essays for Radio Free Asia. Go to China, live among its people, stay there for a bit. Censorship is a joke in China, and only exists in name.

Dave: $. Also, I'm sorry to hear that you're being forced to watch the Olympics. Also, I am glad you are regulating the amount of time your daughter spends on potentially joint damaging activities like gymnastics.

[Banquo's Ghost]

EDIT: Re-opened. Please continue in a civil manner.

:bow:

[Strike For The South]

Im just waiting for track at which point the USA will crack skulls and break records. USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

[rvg]

...USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

Whooping on Greece in basketball felt rather good.

[TevashSzat]

This is just a repost of my rather long post in another thread here with some changes here or there:

I am a native Chinese here and was born in Beijing. I'm a permanent resident in the US atm. Didn't really want to get into the discussion before since frankly, I don't want to spend all that time writing posts as long as this one

Anyways, I'll try to give some thoughts, some anecdotes, and basically give you a Chinese viewpoint

Okay first of all, Communism, imo, works on paper but will never even come close to success in real life which is why the only reason the Chinese government hasn't fallen yet is that right now, it's not really even attempting to keep the Communism ideal; its is just communist in name.

As for why we adopted it, keep this in mind. China has a 5000 year history. We, as a civilization, have been one of the most dominant nations in the world until the modern times. We rivaled the Romans, the Greeks, any ancient civilization you can name and ancient China was probably comparable if not better. In China right now, basically these last 100-150 years were called something like the century of downfall when we went from the best in the world to one of the most underdeveloped ones.

The nationalists, who were in power for about 3-4 decades before WWII. They were democratic, but they had horrible corruption and generally did not rule the country well at all. Once Japan invaded China and WWII began, the nationalists lost horribly and the nation was basically razed. Given China's state at that point, I doubt any government could have done too much better, but the nationalists were the government at that time and their failure created the impetus for the rise of the Communist Party. Now might it have been better had the nationalists survived? Perhaps, but you would never know how world history might have changed.

Now, has the Communist government in the past half a century or so done some terrible things? Yes, without a doubt and the people do know that. However, China is one of the great powers of the world now and is only growing in power, which I don't think anyone can deny. Progress has been made and the average person is living MUCH better than half a century ago. As much as the critics blame the Chinese government for human rights issues, there is no doubt that the country has improved tremendously.

Now, many have said that China only improved once the Communist restrictions were lifted, but that is not the full picture. The Cultural Revolution, as horrible as it was, did have a few benefits: it gave a chance to millions of poor farmers and created a generation determined to succeed. My father was born is a very very poor village in one of the poorest provinces in China. He literally lived in a mud hut, his father was a blacksmith, and they sold crops for a living and this was in the 60s/70s. In any nation, he would basically grow up like his father and would never improve in socioeconomic status.

Now, the cultural revolution equaled the educational opportunities between rural and urban areas. My father studied hard and managed to get into one of the best medical schools in the country. He graduated and became a cardiologist. Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

As for the Tibet issue, this is what the people feel: Before China went in, Tibet was terribly backwards, even by Chinese standards at that time, which is saying alot. Now, Tibet has improved tremendously, even for the natives there. For gods sake, I've seen monks using cell phones in Tibet. Now, lots of people have been killed in Tibet, but so have millions in rest of China so most people feel that there is nothing special or overly harsh that Tibet has suffered through.

Essentially, most people see Tibet trying to get independence right after it has gained a tremendous amount of benefit from China and tons of investment. Its akin to something like Hawaii wanting independence right now from the US (well, thats not the best comparison there, but still). Hawaii, btw, only joined the United States because the wealthy sugar plantation owners and what not started a Coup to overthrow Hawaii's rightful government.

I can say that for the near future, barring some major change in world politics, Tibet will never be free. If it declares independence, China will surely invade and crush the opposition easily. Now, don't say that the US will help or anything because it won't. Just look at Georgia and Russia right now. Georgia is actually a sovereign nation and all the US is doing is sending in humanitarian supplies....

China and US have too much of a symbiotic relationship for either country to break off relations. US needs China for borrowing money for government debts and for cheap Chinese goods. Without Chinese goods, the US economy will downspiral and crash and there will be another great depression. China needs US consumers to buy Chinese goods and if US stops buying them, the Chinese boom will collapse and there will be a great depression too.

So.... this 862 word reply is finally finished.....and yeah. Kinda a semi rant, but I'm hopefully coherent enough there. Please don't end up making me write another one because this really takes up alot of time....

Another addition here: I feel that the Western mindset is very different from the Chinese mindset. Western nations are outraged bu China's human right violations and I am too up to a point. Keep in mind, though, that to a vast majority of the Chinese, fighting local government corruption is much bigger on their priorities than making sure they have freedom of speech or religion. In fact, those arguing for Tibet and the Xinjiang independence are considered to be on the fringe and radicals in China.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So who else isn't watching this stupendous display of trivia and hysteria? You aan I are probably the only ones and we may not even agree on the reason why we don't watch.

I don't watch because the games are kitsch. They represent power politics, big money and chauvinism and have nothing to do with sports, certainly not amateur sports, although they profess to be about nothing but the latter.

Your inability to separate politics from the rest is your own problem. If seeing the face of a first time olympic medal winner doesn't bring a smile to your face then I don't know what to say to you.


Feng Jianzhong, deputy chief of the Chinese Sports Affairs Bureau, has stated that the last candidate to bear the Olympic torch would 'represent the image of China, can communicate with the world and can show the Olympic spirit.' Well, Mr Li Ning, of Li Ning Sportswear Ltd, certainly did. His company made a handsome profit on the Hong Kong stock exchange this week.

Li Ning is a famous chinese gymnast with six olympic medals including three gold.


Call me oldfashioned, but to me it's simply distasteful to see all those vain, empty-headed sports figures assembling in one of the world's worst dictatorships and doing their inane little routines with balls and spears and stuff, and all the world is watching it on tv and going 'aaah', oblivious of the millions of slaves in China's camp system, some of whom live not far from Beijing since they had to help build some of the facilities.

Your starting to smell a bit of intellectual snobbery here adrian...


Bah. At least the Roman circuses were the real deal, they weren't effeminate celebrations of commercialism that destroyed the manly spirit of the observers; they inspired them to face wounds and death scornfully, to celebrate the glory and victory even of criminals and slaves as long as they demonstrated aptitude, courage and persistence.

I don't suppose the people watching them and going "aaah" were oblivious of the conditions lived in were they?






I really enjoy the olympics myself. My only beef with the coverage so far has been their insistence on showing so many swimming heats and semifinals. The are a bunch of boring sports in the olympics but fortunately they don't show most of them (with the exception of beach volleyball). The olympics is all about swimming, track and field, and gymnastics.

[Adrian II]

Your inability to separate politics from the rest is your own problem.The Chinese don't make the distinction. Failing to spot that is deeply naive.
Li Ning is a famous Chinese gymnast with six olympic medals including three gold.Li Ning is a trained rabbit, the product of a totalitarian state that used all legal and illegal means in its arsenal to raise, train and promote him. And because he plays his role of loyal supporter of the regime to the hilt, he was allowed to start his business venture and prosper. If not, he would have been in prison. Li Ning is an experiment in human engineering, he has nothing to do with sports. And if you had read the piece by Bao Tong which I linked, you would have an idea of the tremendous costs to society of such experiments.

And yes, I have seen winners smile. I saw a Chinese female gymnast smile after she won; she still had baby teeth because she is far younger than the required age of 16.

You're watching a freak show, my friend. You may prefer to remain deaf and blind to unpatalable truths, that is your right. Just don't accuse others of snobbery because they refuse to buy into it.

[discovery1]

And yes, I have seen winners smile. I saw a Chinese female gymnast smile after she won; she still had baby teeth because she is far younger than the required age of 16.



So the Chinese team really is 12 and not just looking it?! Damn.

You know, I once thought that if I were the best in my field it wouldn't matter, for me anyway, where I worked. I don't think that's true anymore.

[Adrian II]

So the Chinese team really is 12 and not just looking it?! Damn.

You know, I once thought that if I were the best in my field it wouldn't matter, for me anyway, where I worked. I don't think that's true anymore.The Chinese Gymastics Federation listed their true ages previously on a website, but now their papers have been changed and the Olympic Committee has hushed it up. Things like that happen all the time, and all nations do it if they can. It's sickening. Most of the winners in gymnastics were never allowed to be their own age if you catch my drift. But the totalitarian states ar far worse in every respect. Just look into the info coming from former East Block states about their former athletic and gymnastics programs. Trained rabbits, my man.

[PanzerJaeger]

Your starting to smell a bit of intellectual snobbery here adrian...


Ya, he better stay out of there. You know how the Chinese treat intellectuals.... and journalists.

[TevashSzat]

This is a question to all who happen to apparently hate China's government:

Have you ever lived in China for a long period of time? Have you ever interacted with Chinese natives who aren't in the minority? Have you guys made any attempt to understand Chinese culture and thinking?

From what I can tell so far, most who has lived in China for a significant amount of time, whether a native or a foreigner, acknowledges the Chinese government's problems, but realizes that it is improving the people's lives.

Also, China's power in this world for the time being is here to stay. I bet most people here (don't know about you guys over in Europe) can find dozens of items in their house that are made in China. Whether you hate China's government or not, without China, the world's economy will go kaput

[Adrian II]

From what I can tell so far, most who has lived in China for a significant amount of time, whether a native or a foreigner, acknowledges the Chinese government's problems, but realizes that it is improving the people's lives.Except the lives of religious people, ethnic minorities, political dissidents, and the millions who were more or less randomly whisked off to Laogai, the world's largest covert network of forced labor camps. Like Bao Tong said': 'In China, we produce miscarriages of justice and trumped-up charges like a high-intensity industrial zone.'

I feel that much of China's recent economic progress is the result of the energy and initiative of ordinary Chinese, enabled because the government is finally off their back in some areas of the economy.

[HoreTore]

She basically trained so much that she ruined her legs.

She's welcome to join "HoreTore's Club of People Who Screwed Their Legs From Too Much Running, Skating and/or Skiing".

Yes, that even happens in democratic countries :beam:

[TevashSzat]

Except the lives of religious people, ethnic minorities, political dissidents, and the millions who were more or less randomly whisked off to Laogai, the world's largest covert network of forced labor camps. Like Bao Tong said': 'In China, we produce miscarriages of justice and trumped-up charges like a high-intensity industrial zone.'

I feel that much of China's recent economic progress is the result of the energy and initiative of ordinary Chinese, enabled because the government is finally off their back in some areas of the economy.

Okay, that is true, I don't deny it.

Name a civilization that has lasted for any significant amount of time who hasn't done most of these things at once in their history. I have studied US History for quite alot and I can quickly come up a very very long list of things that have rivaled the atrocities of the Chinese Government (Indians and smallpox come to mind here). Imperialistic Europe caused countless hardships in the lives of billions. In fact, the rise of the Communist party is in part due to the European undermining of the nationalist democratic government that caused it to be viewed weak in the minds of the whole country.

In fact, its not just China's economic growth, but the whole world's. So many companies rely on China's cheap labor and sweatshops that the whole world is dependent on China as much as China is dependent on everyone else is.

[Viking]

Okay, that is true, I don't deny it.

Name a civilization that has lasted for any significant amount of time who hasn't done most of these things at once in their history. I have studied US History for quite alot and I can quickly come up a very very long list of things that have rivaled the atrocities of the Chinese Government (Indians and smallpox come to mind here). Imperialistic Europe caused countless hardships in the lives of billions. In fact, the rise of the Communist party is in part due to the European undermining of the nationalist democratic government that caused it to be viewed weak in the minds of the whole country.

In fact, its not just China's economic growth, but the whole world's. So many companies rely on China's cheap labor and sweatshops that the whole world is dependent on China as much as China is dependent on everyone else is.

I fail to see the point; you should compare China to the rest of the world as it currently is.

EDIT: If one would should bother to compare at all; it's not really good for anything. :thinking:

[Louis VI the Fat]

This is a question to all who happen to apparently hate China's government:

Have you ever lived in China for a long period of time? Have you ever interacted with Chinese natives who aren't in the minority? Have you guys made any attempt to understand Chinese culture and thinking?Chinese culture is difficult to comprehend from the outside. It is inward looking, and Chinese, individually or collectively, have a tendency to close like an oyster at any criticism.
Having said that, the world is quite accustomed to Chinese. There are Chinatowns everywhere, their kids go to school with everybody else. And there are Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong. More open, more free Chinese offshoot countries.

All you have to do with Chinese is stop treating them like pack mules and they prosper. There's no 'need' for China to be authoritarian. Nor is the improvement of the quality of life an excuse. Nor is the very tiresome 'but you did it too' a proper argument for those over the age of six.


It is precisely because China is here to stay, because it is inevitable that China will assume it's place as the world's biggest superpower, that Chinese authoritarianism feels at once misplaced, outdated and, indeed, threatening. The current China mixes the indignified retoric of a state that feels wronged by history and unacknowledged by the outside world, with the arrogance of a superpower.


On a personal note, my hairdresser of course is Asian. A few gays from Hong Kong and mainland China. Why? A) Never have your hair cut by heterosexuals. And b) hipness flows from East to West. Tokyo - London - New York - Los Angeles. From these capitals hipness flows to the continental masses of Asia, the European continent and the US. Once something has reached LA you do not want to be associated with it even when dead.
Why is that relevant? Because they are the face of China to me. How some geriatrics, power hungry Chinese officials and those horrid IOC members think that mass spectacles like these Olympics impress anyone or project 'power and progress' is beyond me. Maybe it did in Bucarest in 1978. In Pyongyang too. But not in the globalised world of 2008.

[DemonArchangel]

Louis: About the opening ceremony, I somehow doubt it was about "power" and "progress" and more about Zhang Yimou's own arrogance and showmanship demanding that he do something massive (ever see the movie Hero?). Couple that with a near unlimited budget, and you have the opening ceremony for the Olympic Games. I had the honor of watching Zhang Yimou's rendition of Turandot in Germany a few years back, and it was massive and awesome, just like a miniature version of the Olympic Opening Ceremony.

[Papewaio]

Okay, that is true, I don't deny it.

Name a civilization that has lasted for any significant amount of time who hasn't done most of these things at once in their history. I have studied US History for quite alot and I can quickly come up a very very long list of things that have rivaled the atrocities of the Chinese Government (Indians and smallpox come to mind here). Imperialistic Europe caused countless hardships in the lives of billions. In fact, the rise of the Communist party is in part due to the European undermining of the nationalist democratic government that caused it to be viewed weak in the minds of the whole country.

In fact, its not just China's economic growth, but the whole world's. So many companies rely on China's cheap labor and sweatshops that the whole world is dependent on China as much as China is dependent on everyone else is.

Chinese athletes aren't competing against the European athletes times of a hundred years ago so why try an essentially unfair comparison of governments out of time sync?

Also with respect to labour, its just that. Labour. Not super skilled design and engineering, it is basic manufacturing. In time the ratios are improving. But labour is found anywhere, and right now a lot of companies are preferring Malaysia, India and Vietnam for their East Asian labour pools. Also Eastern Europe and South America beckon.

I don't think it is anything special that Australia is a quarry and that China is the manufacturers. Neither of us are at the right end of the spectrum compared to engineers, designers and high end consumers.

Nor do I think being the best a thousand years ago counts for much. One must live the life they have now, not the one of their ancestors.

Communist China is growing. Democratic China would flourish.

[Moros]

Communist China is growing. Democratic China would flourish.
Amen!

[ICantSpellDawg]

solid gold shut out, baby. sorry aussies.

[CountArach]

solid gold shut out, baby. sorry aussies.
Oh well, we still have more medals per capita...

[Adrian II]

The Independent has more on the age issue in gymnastics. How much more corrupt can the IOC get?


The controversy over He has been bubbling for a couple of months since the Chinese named her in their team for the Games. Her age, which had previously been given by several official Chinese sources as 14, suddenly became 16, which meets the requirement that competitors must be 16 in the year of the Games.

Two official Chinese gymnastic websites " now blocked" previously gave He's birth date as 1994, making her 14 this year. The China Daily, the government newspaper, profiled her earlier this year and said she was 14. And most compelling of all was a speech in November 2007 when a Chinese official, Liu Peng, introduced He as 13.

link (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/tweddle-misses-medal-amid-age-controversy-901416.html)

[DemonArchangel]

Oh hell, between the doping, age scandals, gear scandals, and medal scandals, Olympic Sports are as dirty as they come. There's a reason why I don't watch Olympic Sports. They're nothing but contests on seeing how much you can cheat before getting caught.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Scandal #241 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2579483/Opening-ceremony-guides-stripped-naked-to-qualify---Olympics.html)
Beijing Olympic opening ceremony guides stripped naked to qualify


Chinese female guides who led each country's athletes into the National Stadium during the Olympic Games opening ceremony had to strip naked as part of the selection process.

Thousands of young women from academies in Beijing applied for the 204 positions to compete for the chance to appear before a huge worldwide audience.

According to reports, the women were measured for their body proportions by teachers who were judging over who was best qualified.

Interviewed by the Beijing News, 20-year-old college student Zhang Fan said that the girls were put in a room where teachers measured them with a ruler. There is no limit to dirty tricks by dirty old men. :no:

I am already looking forward to seeing how Chinese officials will try to lie their way out of this one. An autocratic regime + saving face at all costs as the highest cultural value makes makes for splendidly imaginative squirming.

[DemonArchangel]

They won't. They'll even admit to having a good time doing it.

[Husar]

I turned on the TV this morning and they showed the women football semifinal between Germany and Brazil and I was pleasantly surprised, the ladies played really well and it was fun to watch.

[Papewaio]

Scandal #241 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2579483/Opening-ceremony-guides-stripped-naked-to-qualify---Olympics.html)There is no limit to dirty tricks by dirty old men. :no:

I am already looking forward to seeing how Chinese officials will try to lie their way out of this one. An autocratic regime + saving face at all costs as the highest cultural value makes makes for splendidly imaginative squirming.

I think you will find that nudity in Asian in certain situations makes the French look prissy.

In Taiwan there are yearly tests of all students. The girls have to strip naked and be measured by doctors for 'health' reasons. Not sure about the guys, I just remember all the girls I was teaching asking if that was the norm in Aus.

[KarlXII]

This is just a repost of my rather long post in another thread here with some changes here or there:

I am a native Chinese here and was born in Beijing. I'm a permanent resident in the US atm. Didn't really want to get into the discussion before since frankly, I don't want to spend all that time writing posts as long as this one

Anyways, I'll try to give some thoughts, some anecdotes, and basically give you a Chinese viewpoint

Okay first of all, Communism, imo, works on paper but will never even come close to success in real life which is why the only reason the Chinese government hasn't fallen yet is that right now, it's not really even attempting to keep the Communism ideal; its is just communist in name.

As for why we adopted it, keep this in mind. China has a 5000 year history. We, as a civilization, have been one of the most dominant nations in the world until the modern times. We rivaled the Romans, the Greeks, any ancient civilization you can name and ancient China was probably comparable if not better. In China right now, basically these last 100-150 years were called something like the century of downfall when we went from the best in the world to one of the most underdeveloped ones.

The nationalists, who were in power for about 3-4 decades before WWII. They were democratic, but they had horrible corruption and generally did not rule the country well at all. Once Japan invaded China and WWII began, the nationalists lost horribly and the nation was basically razed. Given China's state at that point, I doubt any government could have done too much better, but the nationalists were the government at that time and their failure created the impetus for the rise of the Communist Party. Now might it have been better had the nationalists survived? Perhaps, but you would never know how world history might have changed.

Now, has the Communist government in the past half a century or so done some terrible things? Yes, without a doubt and the people do know that. However, China is one of the great powers of the world now and is only growing in power, which I don't think anyone can deny. Progress has been made and the average person is living MUCH better than half a century ago. As much as the critics blame the Chinese government for human rights issues, there is no doubt that the country has improved tremendously.

Now, many have said that China only improved once the Communist restrictions were lifted, but that is not the full picture. The Cultural Revolution, as horrible as it was, did have a few benefits: it gave a chance to millions of poor farmers and created a generation determined to succeed. My father was born is a very very poor village in one of the poorest provinces in China. He literally lived in a mud hut, his father was a blacksmith, and they sold crops for a living and this was in the 60s/70s. In any nation, he would basically grow up like his father and would never improve in socioeconomic status.

Now, the cultural revolution equaled the educational opportunities between rural and urban areas. My father studied hard and managed to get into one of the best medical schools in the country. He graduated and became a cardiologist. Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

As for the Tibet issue, this is what the people feel: Before China went in, Tibet was terribly backwards, even by Chinese standards at that time, which is saying alot. Now, Tibet has improved tremendously, even for the natives there. For gods sake, I've seen monks using cell phones in Tibet. Now, lots of people have been killed in Tibet, but so have millions in rest of China so most people feel that there is nothing special or overly harsh that Tibet has suffered through.

Essentially, most people see Tibet trying to get independence right after it has gained a tremendous amount of benefit from China and tons of investment. Its akin to something like Hawaii wanting independence right now from the US (well, thats not the best comparison there, but still). Hawaii, btw, only joined the United States because the wealthy sugar plantation owners and what not started a Coup to overthrow Hawaii's rightful government.

I can say that for the near future, barring some major change in world politics, Tibet will never be free. If it declares independence, China will surely invade and crush the opposition easily. Now, don't say that the US will help or anything because it won't. Just look at Georgia and Russia right now. Georgia is actually a sovereign nation and all the US is doing is sending in humanitarian supplies....

China and US have too much of a symbiotic relationship for either country to break off relations. US needs China for borrowing money for government debts and for cheap Chinese goods. Without Chinese goods, the US economy will downspiral and crash and there will be another great depression. China needs US consumers to buy Chinese goods and if US stops buying them, the Chinese boom will collapse and there will be a great depression too.

So.... this 862 word reply is finally finished.....and yeah. Kinda a semi rant, but I'm hopefully coherent enough there. Please don't end up making me write another one because this really takes up alot of time....

Another addition here: I feel that the Western mindset is very different from the Chinese mindset. Western nations are outraged bu China's human right violations and I am too up to a point. Keep in mind, though, that to a vast majority of the Chinese, fighting local government corruption is much bigger on their priorities than making sure they have freedom of speech or religion. In fact, those arguing for Tibet and the Xinjiang independence are considered to be on the fringe and radicals in China.

Tl;dr :yes:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

WRONG. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU&feature=related)

Oh, and it's going to be fun watching the impending environmental disaster from how China has so seriously abused its environment. Well, not fun, but interesting at least.

I have to wonder at people saying; oh China's gov't has done so much good. Now, they control the news, don't they? So you can't really get an honest opinion about what's happening.

And furthermore; how can it be said China wouldn't be farther along if they weren't burdened witht he government they have now; look at the rise of South Korea.

CR

[TevashSzat]

WRONG. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU&feature=related)

Oh, and it's going to be fun watching the impending environmental disaster from how China has so seriously abused its environment. Well, not fun, but interesting at least.

I have to wonder at people saying; oh China's gov't has done so much good. Now, they control the news, don't they? So you can't really get an honest opinion about what's happening.

And furthermore; how can it be said China wouldn't be farther along if they weren't burdened witht he government they have now; look at the rise of South Korea.

CR

Umm....I don't see how you are rebutting or countering my previous statement; you're just dodging it with a tangential topic.

Anyways, my family has experienced lots of the Chinese government's horrible deeds so don't you think that I don't know what horrible things has happened.

My grandmother's family used to own a whole mountain range and all of the villages/peasants working on the land there, but then it was taken away by the communists. Several family members have died due to the communists and my grandfather is now living in quite poor conditions right now again due to them.

And regarding your second statement, the thing is no one knows. It might be better, or the government might have collapsed. It is important to note that South Korea and China were in very different situations. Indeed, had the international community supported the nationalists much more substantially in the Sino Japanese war, I would say with about 80% certainty that it would have survived WW2 and might still be in power today

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think you will find that nudity in Asian in certain situations makes the French look prissy.

In Taiwan there are yearly tests of all students. The girls have to strip naked and be measured by doctors for 'health' reasons. Not sure about the guys, I just remember all the girls I was teaching asking if that was the norm in Aus.It suddenly occurs to me that I haven't the faintest clue about nudity and normalcy in East Asia. Or the normalcy of abnormalcy.

I am just hoping for as many scandals as possible. The spotlight of the Olympics beams in both directions. The hosts can hope to use it to advertise their magnificence. But it can also be used to draw attention to and magnify their shortcomings. Both within and outside of China.

[Tristuskhan]

My grandmother's family used to own a whole mountain range and all of the villages/peasants working on the land there

Good old times, for sure:inquisitive:


Indeed, had the international community supported the nationalists much more substantially in the Sino Japanese war, I would say with about 80% certainty that it would have survived WW2

Do you mean the landlords would have been able to... mmm... "deal with" the massive popular discontent their feudal rule brought and fed? That's really questionnable. The outstanding accomplishments of Taiwan (and by the way, it's the same for South Korea) were only possible with the need for the GMD to compete with communist China in order to justify their rule. If there was not an ennemy, GMD would have remained the same bunch of corrupt and inept feudals it was between 1930 and the fifties, probably (at that time their kept corruption as a tradition, but became competent at least, and democrats later)

[HoreTore]

Umm....I don't see how you are rebutting or countering my previous statement; you're just dodging it with a tangential topic.

Don't worry about that, TevashSzat, CR is still living The American Delusion, where exceptions to the rule somehow prove everything.

[yesdachi]

...had to strip naked as part of the selection process.

I am looking into getting this to be part of the standard screening process for new employees where I work. :eyebrows:

It does make me wonder if more people would take better care of themselves if they knew they could not get a job if they didn’t look fat or ugly.

[JR-]

whoa, china shot up the gold rankings since i last checked, leaving the US in the dust!



Please use the designated protest zones for unfurling flags about Tibet. Also, please shut up about Tibet.
these people requested use of the dedicated protest zones and got sentenced to a year's ‘re-education through labour':
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/peter_foster/blog/2008/08/20/the_ioc_plays_appeaser_in_beijing

[JR-]

are there any updating lists of medals per-capita and medals per GDP by any chance, might make interesting reading............?



I'm actually surprised at the level of mercy the Chinese government has show in Tibet, when we simply could have killed them all, sort of like what the Europeans did to the African natives.
i can find only one reference to genocide relating to african colonialism, and it was by germany rather than all european colonial nations all the time wherever we went in africa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_Genocide

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

i can find only one reference to genocide relating to african colonialism, and it was by germany rather than all european colonial nations all the time wherever we went in africa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_Genocide

I can think of two more. The British concentration camps in the Second Boer War and the Belgian Congo.

[JR-]

I can think of two more. The British concentration camps in the Second Boer War and the Belgian Congo.

the british concentration camps had nothing to do with genocide, to say as much is to make a unjustified allusion to what the nazi's were up to.

and as far as i can tell there was no attempt at genocide in the belgian congo, no matter how repugnant belgian colonialism was.

[Husar]

Well, so I guess genocide is our invention and our speciality.
Makes me feel all special and evil like every teenager wants to be... :freak:

So basically, considering the topic title, this is about how the olympic games are bad because China is bad and the only other nation as bad as China is Germany and I should be ashamed for being a chinese by association and liking women's football when it is played in China? :dizzy2:

[JR-]

sorry, i did not mean to intimate that, i could only find one specific wiki reference to genocide in relation to african colonialism. :)

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well, so I guess genocide is our invention and our speciality.
Makes me feel all special and evil like every teenager wants to be... :freak:

So basically, considering the topic title, this is about how the olympic games are bad because China is bad and the only other nation as bad as China is Germany and I should be ashamed for being a chinese by association and liking women's football when it is played in China? :dizzy2:Oh, don't be a crybaby or you'll never get laid. WWII was two hundred years ago and nobody cares about it.

More importantly, don't watch women's footy! Girls don't dig guys with freak perversions like that. Be a man. Play football yourself. In a park, not at a club.
When a girl you fancy comes along, you solo in Maradona style through six opponents and score with a cracking belter, through the goalkeeper's legs. Then you take a break 'because these guys obviously aren't any match for your skillz', and you chat up the girl. Then, when one of your mates sees a nice girl, six others of you suddenly become spastic and it's his turn to put on a show. Girls never figure that sort of stuff out.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

the british concentration camps had nothing to do with genocide, to say as much is to make a unjustified allusion to what the nazi's were up to.

From Wiki:


As Boer farms were destroyed by the British under their "Scorched Earth" policy - including the systematic destruction of crops and slaughtering of livestock, the burning down of homesteads and farms, and the poisoning of wells and salting of fields - to prevent the Boers from resupplying from a home base many tens of thousands of women and children were forcibly moved into the concentration camps. This was not the first appearance of internment camps. The Spanish had used internment in the Ten Years' War that later led to the Spanish-American War, and the United States had used them to devastate guerrilla forces during the Philippine-American War. But the Boer War concentration camp system was the first time that a whole nation had been systematically targeted, and the first in which some whole regions had been depopulated.


and as far as i can tell there was no attempt at genocide in the belgian congo, no matter how repugnant belgian colonialism was.

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=30788&SESSION=875

[Craterus]

Oh, don't be a crybaby or you'll never get laid. WWII was two hundred years ago and nobody cares about it.

More importantly, don't watch women's footy! Girls don't dig guys with freak perversions like that. Be a man. Play football yourself. In a park, not at a club.
When a girl you fancy comes along, you solo in Maradona style through six opponents and score with a cracking belter, through the goalkeeper's legs. Then you take a break 'because these guys obviously aren't any match for your skillz', and you chat up the girl. Then, when one of your mates sees a nice girl, six others of you suddenly become spastic and it's his turn to put on a show. Girls never figure that sort of stuff out.

I've met very few girls impressed by anything football-related. Once scored 3 and...nothing. She was even watching the game, totally oblivious.

[Louis VI the Fat]

In that case, feign injury and work on their nursing instinct. :book:

[Husar]

Oh, don't be a crybaby or you'll never get laid. WWII was two hundred years ago and nobody cares about it.

More importantly, don't watch women's footy! Girls don't dig guys with freak perversions like that. Be a man. Play football yourself. In a park, not at a club.
When a girl you fancy comes along, you solo in Maradona style through six opponents and score with a cracking belter, through the goalkeeper's legs. Then you take a break 'because these guys obviously aren't any match for your skillz', and you chat up the girl. Then, when one of your mates sees a nice girl, six others of you suddenly become spastic and it's his turn to put on a show. Girls never figure that sort of stuff out.

:laugh4:

[JR-]

From Wiki:
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=30788&SESSION=875
i dunno what your definition of genocide is, but the boer concentration camps are not it.

i accept the link about the bongo with little surprise given that i accept belgian colonialism was about the most repugnant form: "and as far as i can tell there was no attempt at genocide in the belgian congo, no matter how repugnant belgian colonialism was."

[ajaxfetish]

The Boer excerpt from Wiki sounds like 'ethnic cleansing,' but not quite genocide.

Ajax

[Adrian II]

Looks like the gymnatics age issue is going live (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=ap-gym-underagechinese&prov=ap&type=lgns). Yes Sir, five out of six girlie gymnasts are now officially suspect. What makes me laugh hardest is that the Chinese state media themselves directed attention to the issue by stating the girls' real ages in their columns in previous years. What was it an American political scientist said years ago? He said that dictatorships breed 'structuraly induced stupidity' in their people and institutions.

Oh beautiful, just look at those Chinese reactions in the article:


“Surely it’s not possible that these documents are still not sufficient proof of her birthdate?” Lu asked. “The passports were issued by the Chinese Foreign Ministry. The identity card was issued by China’s Ministry of Public Security. If these valid documents are not enough to clarify this problem, then what will you believe?Indeed, if the Ministry of Security of one of the world's worst human rights violators can't be trusted, then who can you trust? ROFL!

China coach Lu Shanzan said the parents are “indignant” over persistent questions about their daughters’ ages.
“It’s not just me. The parents of our athletes are all very indignant,” Lu said. “They have faced groundless suspicion. Why aren’t they believed? Why are their children suspected? Their parents are very angry.”Why are their children suspected? Because of the government's stupidity, including the mention of the girls' real ages on the Minisry of Sports websites in previous years! Hahaha, I can't believe this. I know some parents who have a right to be angry: the parents of the girls and women who were cheated out of their gold medals because of this fraud.

Oh, and here's a beauty - the Chinese officials are playing the race card:

“At this competition, the Japanese gymnasts were just as small as the Chinese,” he said. “Chinese competitors have for years all been small. It is not just this time. It is a question of race. European and American athletes are all powerful, very robust. But Chinese athletes cannot be like that. They are by nature that small.”No Sir, it is a question of your own stupid government shooting itself in the foot. Go on, and I will start watching the Games after all, for comic relief.

[HoreTore]

Hmm, I have to confess that I'm clueless when it comes to gymnastics, but why is being young an advantage in that sport?

[Ronin]

Hmm, I have to confess that I'm clueless when it comes to gymnastics, but why is being young an advantage in that sport?

girls that have not yet gone through puberty have a series of physical advantages in gymnastics....total body weight is lower, center of gravity position in the body is different, general flexibility is higher...etc.

this whole subject will end up coming to a dead end obviously.....the Chinese government issues the documents that state the false ages so they can basically "verify" their own false claims....these medals will obviously be tainted on the general public´s opinion but that´s about as far as it will go.

[JR-]

has anything happened since to publicly out this record tampering?

[Adrian II]

Since Jamaica, a country with no independent drug testing for ahletes, won just about every track gold medal, I'm considering taking part in the London 2012 Games with a rocket pack on my back. I guess as long as my passport looks okay, I'm in.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Thanks Beijng for these great games! It's been a distinct pleasure having made aquintance with the real China in this way. :2thumbsup:


https://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4573/captcpsnji0622080820555pd2.jpg

79-year-old Wu Dianyuan. And her friend Wang Xiuying, 77.

Sentenced to one year of 'reeducation (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gG4zGF4ey2Sp28UDcxcfbkbNxkoA) through physical labour in the camps. What for? For protesting the demolishment of their family homes for the Olympics without compensation.

Just two faces out of hundreds of thousands.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Wait - it said on the coverage yesterday that a British diver was fourteen, and he apparently acknowledged that it was true, but he was still competing. Do the regulations differ by sport?

[JR-]

i think it does, being younger is supposed to confer an unnacceptable advantage in sports like gymnastics if i remember correctly.

[Ronin]

the age limits vary from sport to sport....I think they are set by the international federation for each individual sport.

[Marshal Murat]

Age matters in different sports. In Gymnastics, age confers flexibility, agility, and ignorance. They are more flexible than an older gymnast. They have almost no fear, since they can't comprehend the full scope of their events. The event age limit also prevents them from developing breaks and sprains that could occur on over strained muscles.

[Papewaio]

Diving is gymnastics with water... I can hardly see how being flexible is not an advantage in diving. So the same explotation that is bad for gymnastics would have to be as bad in diving.

But it is by federation... in football at the olympics there is an upper age limit...

[Papewaio]

Oh, and here's a beauty - the Chinese officials are playing the race card:

“At this competition, the Japanese gymnasts were just as small as the Chinese,” he said. “Chinese competitors have for years all been small. It is not just this time. It is a question of race. European and American athletes are all powerful, very robust. But Chinese athletes cannot be like that. They are by nature that small.”No Sir, it is a question of your own stupid government shooting itself in the foot. Go on, and I will start watching the Games after all, for comic relief.

You could also point out there more robust large athletes of a 'similar age' in swimming... or the really tall ones in basketball... these kind of point to the lie that 'all chinese' are petite.

[Adrian II]

Has anyone else seen the footage of Boris Johnson's 'whiff whaff speech' to British athletes after the official hand-over? He looked horrible again in his shabby suit, like a tereotype second hand car salesman, but his speech more than made up for it. I loved the reference to Milo of Croton, and his statement that 'ping-pong ('whiff whaff) is coming home' was sheer brilliance. I dont know that the London Games wll necessarliy be the best, or even successful by modern standards since these standards definitely stink - but they will certainly be the funniest!

Kudos to Alexander de Pfeffel. :2thumbsup:

[Papewaio]

I saw the closing ceremony and the handing of the flag to Boris. He looked utterly shabby, which lead to two good points:

a) He can't be French.
b) He can't be Facist.

[drone]

I saw the closing ceremony and the handing of the flag to Boris. He looked utterly shabby, which lead to two good points:

a) He can't be French.
b) He can't be Facist.

I can't help but wonder what the hand-off would have been like with Red Ken instead. :inquisitive:

[ICantSpellDawg]

Has anyone else seen the footage of Boris Johnson's 'whiff whaff speech' to British athletes after the official hand-over?

That was very funny.

Adrian, what is your connection to the U.K.? You seem to show a particular affinity for it in your posts. Have you lived there at all?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Don't worry about that, TevashSzat, CR is still living The American Delusion, where exceptions to the rule somehow prove everything.

Ah, another whining socialist screed. Why don't you move along and keep acting as though lack of opportunity and not talent is what keeps such whiners back.


Umm....I don't see how you are rebutting or countering my previous statement; you're just dodging it with a tangential topic.

No, I was just saying you're completely wrong about people in the US not being able to rise from poverty to great success.

CR

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

There Is to many sports in the Oypimcs, plus, they get pro basketball players to do basketball, so what the point in that?

[Adrian II]

That was very funny.

Adrian, what is your connection to the U.K.? You seem to show a particular affinity for it in your posts. Have you lived there at all?You could say the same with regard to threee other countries. I simply love our neighbours like I love my own country; in many ways I identify with Belgium, France, Germany and the United Kingdom. I grew up visiting them countless times, making friends and acquaintances in all four of them, reading their literature, papers and magazines, watching their movies and tv channels - and of course writing about them. This little cluster of countries embodies the best and the worst of European history and culture and by extension, in my mind, of mankind.

Call me a North Sea-centrist.. :laugh4:

[Strike For The South]

You could say the same with regard to threee other countries. I simply love our neighbours like I love my own country; in many ways I identify with Belgium, France, Germany and the United Kingdom. I grew up visiting them countless times, making friends and acquaintances in all four of them, reading their literature, papers and magazines, watching their movies and tv channels - and of course writing about them. This little cluster of countries embodies the best and the worst of European history and culture and by extension, in my mind, of mankind.

Call me a North Sea-centrist.. :laugh4:

Communist

[Adrian II]

CommunistOkay. I read books, I admit it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Netherlands, Belgium, France, Germany and the United Kingdom.

Call me a North Sea-centrist.. :laugh4:Countries, cultures, in my opinion, are difficult to group in exclusive clusters. To speak of Europe as divided in 'Latin', 'Germanic', or Catholic / Protestant / Orthodox is fruitless. Too many overlaps.

Better is the analogy of a ripples in a pond. A certain cultural trait will usually have a clear centre, and ripples out. Europe then, is a pond with many different ciricles, of many clusters of cultures.

The marriage of language and the nationstate in the nineteenth century, at the exclusion of most other cultural identities, has diminshed the prominence of many of these underlying cultural belts, or clusters. But they are still intact.
France is clearly 'Latin', but it also falls within the circle of Northern Europe. Beer drinking Germany and Britain belong to a separate cluster from France, together with the Czechs, Danes and Belgians. As opossed to the wine drinking countries to the south, or the Vodka belt to the east and north. Britain is sometimes Anglosaxon, and sometimes European. Etcetera.

What then, this is my question, is the common denominator between your five countries? Apart from sharing in the fortune of being Belgium's immediate neighbours, is there a common denominator, a North Sea culture?

[Adrian II]

The marriage of language and the nationstate in the nineteenth century, at the exclusion of most other cultural identities, has diminshed the prominence of many of these underlying cultural belts, or clusters. But they are still intact.Without a doubt, esteemed colleague. Though I would point out that a narrative analysis of contemporary identity formation marginalizes extraterritorial influences.
What then, this is my question, is the common denominator between your five countries?This, then, is my answer: I like them.

[Husar]

This, then, is my answer: I like them.

And so do I, no really.

[Papewaio]

What then, this is my question, is the common denominator between your five countries? Apart from sharing in the fortune of being Belgium's immediate neighbours, is there a common denominator, a North Sea culture?

The five biggest colonial powers at one point. :sweatdrop:
Yet now five of the most influential and stable democracies around...

Good models for positive upwards trend, even if some of them are two steps forward and one step back.

[JR-]

This, then, is my answer: I like them.And so do I, no really.

That's what worries me! :sweatdrop: *









only kidding. :beam:

[Strike For The South]

Countries, cultures, in my opinion, are difficult to group in exclusive clusters. To speak of Europe as divided in 'Latin', 'Germanic', or Catholic / Protestant / Orthodox is fruitless. Too many overlaps.

Better is the analogy of a ripples in a pond. A certain cultural trait will usually have a clear centre, and ripples out. Europe then, is a pond with many different ciricles, of many clusters of cultures.

The marriage of language and the nationstate in the nineteenth century, at the exclusion of most other cultural identities, has diminshed the prominence of many of these underlying cultural belts, or clusters. But they are still intact.
France is clearly 'Latin', but it also falls within the circle of Northern Europe. Beer drinking Germany and Britain belong to a separate cluster from France, together with the Czechs, Danes and Belgians. As opossed to the wine drinking countries to the south, or the Vodka belt to the east and north. Britain is sometimes Anglosaxon, and sometimes European. Etcetera.

What then, this is my question, is the common denominator between your five countries? Apart from sharing in the fortune of being Belgium's immediate neighbours, is there a common denominator, a North Sea culture?

Communist

[Adrian II]

CommunistTexan! :stare:

[Viking]

Texan! :stare:

:fainting:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Texan! :stare:

Compliment! :2thumbsup:

[Strike For The South]

Texan! :stare:

You and the other europeans should start some kind of union

[Adrian II]

You and the other europeans should start some kind of unionYou guys don't have the guts to secede.

[Strike For The South]

https://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3140/picscbdbd7.th.jpg (https://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picscbdbd7.jpg)

[KukriKhan]

You guys don't have the guts to secede.

LOL.

Maybe Russia should issue passports to Texans.:2thumbsup:

[CountArach]

You guys don't have the guts to secede.
Haha :laugh4: :2thumbsup:

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

So who else isn't watching this stupendous display of trivia and hysteria? You aan I are probably the only ones and we may not even agree on the reason why we don't watch.

I don't watch because the games are kitsch. They represent power politics, big money and chauvinism and have nothing to do with sports, certainly not amateur sports, although they profess to be about nothing but the latter.

Feng Jianzhong, deputy chief of the Chinese Sports Affairs Bureau, has stated that the last candidate to bear the Olympic torch would 'represent the image of China, can communicate with the world and can show the Olympic spirit.' Well, Mr Li Ning, of Li Ning Sportswear Ltd, certainly did. His company made a handsome profit on the Hong Kong stock exchange this week. And not only the fireworks were fake, so was the singing of the Chinese hymn. No doubt most sports victories are fake, too, although you never know which one until the drugs tests are in, the corrupt judges are smoked out (which they never are) and the real women are separated from the steroid hybrids.

Call me oldfashioned, but to me it's simply distasteful to see all those vain, empty-headed sports figures assembling in one of the world's worst dictatorships and doing their inane little routines with balls and spears and stuff, and all the world is watching it on tv and going 'aaah', oblivious of the millions of slaves in China's camp system, some of whom live not far from Beijing since they had to help build some of the facilities.

Bah. At least the Roman circuses were the real deal, they weren't effeminate celebrations of commercialism that destroyed the manly spirit of the observers; they inspired them to face wounds and death scornfully, to celebrate the glory and victory even of criminals and slaves as long as they demonstrated aptitude, courage and persistence.

But wait, the Chinese have Christians, don't they? Why don't they throw some of them to the pandas lions? They kill them in prisons, underground cellars and work camps, so why not in public?
Not only have I been uninterested since '88 Seoul, I have deliberately ignored the dirty advertisement of Red China Ltd., the most horrendous slave driving community of modern ages; violater of the most basic huamn rights of its subjects; invader and oppressor of at least three countries (being "Inner" Mongolia, Eastern Turkestan and Tibet) and who knows how many ethnic, religious or cultural entities.

I have been showing my own little passive resistence in my forum signature for quite a while. See my user page for details.
.

[DemonArchangel]

.

Not only have I been uninterested since '88 Seoul, I have deliberately ignored the dirty advertisement of Red China Ltd., the most horrendous slave driving community of modern ages; violator of the most basic human rights of its subjects; invader and oppressor of at least three countries (being "Inner" Mongolia, Eastern Turkestan and Tibet) and who knows how many ethnic, religious or cultural entities.

I have been showing my own little passive resistance in my forum signature for quite a while. See my user page for details.
.

East Turkestan is a joke, and a rather bad one at that. Xinjiang has less political legitimacy than Tibet, and that's saying something.

As for Turkey itself, I have more than my share of issues regarding it *cough* Kurdistan *cough*

About Mongolia, it's easier to just to say that China belongs to Mongolia and not the other way around :tongue2:

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
I'm not here (or anywhere else) advocating the Turkish İttihad-Terakki/Republic regime's policies, and myself being an outright promoter of Kurdish rights and a pupil of language and literature thereof, your nagging is moot. You may proceed with bringing up the Armenian genocide maybe. Be my guest. My words are the same, no matter what person or community, maybe with the exception of not having ever been able to study any Armenian.

Eastern Turkestan had been a sovereign state with established government, armed forces etc. until being utterly invaded by the Communist 8th army in 1948, not without prior attempts, some successful, of invasion. Some resistance survived until 1949 but masses of people were forced to flee, the majority perishing crossing the Hindukush and Taklamakan, a few thousands managed to seek asylum in India and -later- Turkey.

I do not necessarily promote new independent states of "Inner" Mongolia, Eastern Turkestan or Tibet myself. Principally I'm against ethnic-based political fragmentation and nation states. What concerns me are human rights (and those of other living things where applicable); in China, Turkey or elsewhere.
.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I feel I am missing out!

I hereby violently protest the hosting of the games by Beijing! The Chinese regime is a crypto-fascist neo-com repressive machine!


:balloon2: Free Tibet! :balloon2:


Got to see what DA wil come up with for a retort about vile French behaviour. :sweatdrop:

[KukriKhan]

I feel I am missing out!

I hereby violently protest the hosting of the games by Beijing! The Chinese regime is a crypto-fascist neo-com repressive machine!


:balloon2: Free Tibet! :balloon2:


Got to see what DA wil come up with for a retort about vile French behaviour. :sweatdrop:

LOL. How can it be crypto-anything if it's a regime? Bravo, again, Louis :bow: .

[DemonArchangel]

I feel I am missing out!

I hereby violently protest the hosting of the games by Beijing! The Chinese regime is a crypto-fascist neo-com repressive machine!


:balloon2: Free Tibet! :balloon2:


Got to see what DA wil come up with for a retort about vile French behaviour. :sweatdrop:

What you say is correct. Buy one Tibet, get another free. :tongue2: As for vile French behavior, the French aren't vile, they're just Losers (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html).

But East Turkestan? It was Xinjiang first, before that, it was the Xiyu. It's only East Turkestan if the Chinese let the locals get uppity.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Just read some more Demon. I'm well read enough on the subject. There was no Chinese population in Eastern Turkestan until the 19th century and Xinjiang means (AFAIK, though I might be wronged in this bit) newly conquered land.

The earliest inhabitants were the IE Tokharians. Then came Turkic and Mongolic populations along with some outstretched Iranian communities. It's the very land that the earliest sedentary Turkic community happened in the late VIIIth century, dispersing and assimilating the previous inhabitants.
.

[DemonArchangel]

.
Just read some more Demon. I'm well read enough on the subject. There was no Chinese population in Eastern Turkestan until the 19th century and Xinjiang means (AFAIK, though I might be wronged in this bit) newly conquered land.

The earliest inhabitants were the IE Tokharians. Then came Turkic and Mongolic populations along with some outstretched Iranian communities. It's the very land that the earliest sedentary Turkic community happened in the late VIIIth century, dispersing and assimilating the previous inhabitants.
.

I've read PLENTY. The first time that the Tarim fell under Chinese control was the Han Dynasty, which more or less predates the existence of people you can call "Turkic." Control of the Xiyu is related to how strong China is relative to Mongolia or Transoxiana. Currently, China is the strongest, and it will stay that way for a long time. The Turkic peoples displaced the Persid oasis dwellers in the VIIIth century, so maybe the region should revert to control of a Sogdian speaking people.

[KukriKhan]

Is Sogdian speaking an Olympic Event now? Who got the gold?

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
:laugh4:

Even if we suppose dear Demon's denial of the Eastern Turkestan case well based, my original points stands; and I shall refrain from dragging the thread on a sidetrack, agreeing to disagree. :bow:
.

[DemonArchangel]

Is Sogdian speaking an Olympic Event now? Who got the gold?

Aw crap, can't remember it off the top of my head. :tongue2:

[Louis VI the Fat]

the French aren't vile, they're just Losers (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html).
:furious3:

No, no. I am not furious at the insult. I am furious at being owned. Why am I owned? Because it dawns on me that I expected some evil Banquonian article about maniacal French genocidal actions in far flung lands. However, if Google is all you can come up with, and this is the crux, then France apparently is nowhere near important enough to the world for anybody to be even aware of our genocides. Hence, you owned me in a most sensitive area: inflated sense of importance. What's more, you simultanously expose and deflate it.

Sheer genius.


I would bow, were it not that this could be mistaken for subservience to Chinese cultural imperialism. :smash:

[Papewaio]

What is this France you speak of? Is it a district in Texas. :us-texas:? :drummer:

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Paris is. :guitarist:
.

[Papewaio]

That's because that Hilton is open everywhere... :clown:

[Incongruous]

That's because that Hilton is open everywhere... :clown:

Oooooooooooooohhhh!!!:whip::2thumbsup:

[KukriKhan]

And so...

we'll wrap this one up with
The top 9 real comments made by NBC sports commentators
during the last Summer Olympics that they would like to take back:

1. Weightlifting commentator: 'This is Gregoriava from Bulgaria. I saw
her snatch this morning during her warm up and it was amazing.'

2. Dressage commentator: 'This is really a lovely horse and I speak
from personal experience since I once mounted her mother.'

3. Paul Hamm, Gymnast: 'I owe a lot to my parents, especially
my mother and father.'

4. Boxing Analyst: 'Sure there have been injuries, and even some
deaths in boxing, but none of them really that serious.'

5. Softball announcer: 'If history repeats itself, I should think we
can expect the same thing again.'

6. Basketball analyst: 'He dribbes a lot and the opposition doesn't
like it. In fact you can see it all over their faces.'

7. At the rowing medal ceremony: 'Ah, isn't that nice, the wife
of the IOC president is hugging the cox of the British crew.'

8. Soccer commentator: 'Julian Dicks is everywhere. It's like
they've got eleven Dicks on the field.'

9. Tennis commentator: 'One of the reasons Andy is playing so well is
that, before the final round, his wife takes out his balls and
kisses them...
Oh my God, what have I just said?'

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

.
I do not necessarily promote new independent states of "Inner" Mongolia, Eastern Turkestan or Tibet myself. Principally I'm against ethnic-based political fragmentation and nation states. What concerns me are human rights (and those of other living things where applicable); in China, Turkey or elsewhere.
.



Isn't Mongolia small enough already? :wall::laugh4:

[Banquo's Ghost]

No, no. I am not furious at the insult. I am furious at being owned. Why am I owned? Because it dawns on me that I expected some evil Banquonian article about maniacal French genocidal actions in far flung lands. However, if Google is all you can come up with, and this is the crux, then France apparently is nowhere near important enough to the world for anybody to be even aware of our genocides. Hence, you owned me in a most sensitive area: inflated sense of importance. What's more, you simultanously expose and deflate it.

Mon brave, if you suffer lamentations for the status of imperial has-beens you ought to try never-wases.

Nobody dredges up maniacal Irish genocides even when Munster crush Toulouse hearts into shattered nothingness.

~:mecry:

[Jolt]

What you say is correct. Buy one Tibet, get another free. :tongue2: As for vile French behavior, the French aren't vile, they're just Losers (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html).

But East Turkestan? It was Xinjiang first, before that, it was the Xiyu. It's only East Turkestan if the Chinese let the locals get uppity.

I never understood something about that losers thing. If anything, France was known for having the strongest army by World War I, and by being a Great Military Power.

Dark Ages:

-Let's start at the dawn of France itself. The Franks. What about a Merovingian expansion, where the
Frankish king "Charles the Great" managed to become Holy Roman Emperor, who conquered half of Italy, Catalonia, Bohemia, Poland, etc.? Were not those victories?

-What about the victories over the Arabs, which spared France (And most probably other parts of Europe) from falling to the Muslims?

Middle Ages:

-What about the Norman (French) conquest of England, actually initiating the first major dynastical house of England?

-What about the Norman conquests in Sicily and lower Italy?

-What about the victory at the HYW (I never understood why they say Jean d'Arc isn't French She was born, raised and died in France. Supposedly speaking to angels, doesn't make her un-french, nor does it question the might and valor of French soldiers.)?

Renaissance:

-What about the Thirty Years War, where French and Swedish armies sucessively defeated Imperial German armies, allowing for freedom of the Protestants German States. And making France an undisputed power in Europe for centuries?

-What about Louis XIV's expansion in France and surroundings, which ultimatly led to a formation of several coalitions to stop his expansion?

Revolutionary France:

-What about the First Coalition War? Where a war-torn revolutionary France, invaded by all the European powers, manages to defeat them all, and even advance into foreign territory?

Victorian Age:

-What about the victory over the Austrians which unfolded the Unification of Italy?

-What about the victories over the Ottomans in the Crimean Wars?

I could go on, but then again I suppose my point has been made, and heck, I'm not even French. I just don't get it why it spread about that the French never won a war...

[caravel]

I must admit that I was watching the women's marathon at about 2am one night because I couldn't sleep and there was nothing else on. It was shocking to see those stick thin defeminised running machines running on and on... for what exactly?

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

-What about the victories over the Ottomans in the Crimean Wars?
Are we supposed to take this seriously? :inquisitive:
.

[DemonArchangel]

*snip*

Dude, I know. I was joking.

[JR-]

I never understood something about that losers thing. If anything, France was known for having the strongest army by World War I, and by being a Great Military Power.



maybe because of the automatic comparison with Great Britain, given the similar size, population, economy, military spending, etc......? :clown:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am sooo not entering a debate about French military history. No insult intended by anyone, none taken, and not a relevant discussion to this thread.

I'll suffice to say that, indeed, Jolt, if one is interested in the study of military history - defeats, victories, glory and atrocities - then French history is a veritable treasure trove indeed.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.


-What about the victories over the Ottomans in the Crimean Wars?
Are we supposed to take this seriously? :inquisitive:
The French and the Ottomans were allies in the Crimean War.
.

[Husar]

I am sooo not entering a debate about French military history. No insult intended by anyone, none taken, and not a relevant discussion to this thread.

I'll suffice to say that, indeed, Jolt, if one is interested in the study of military history - defeats, victories, glory and atrocities - then French history is a veritable treasure trove indeed.

Nationalist.

[Strike For The South]

Nationalist.

communist

[Papewaio]

Texan.

Cycle complete shall I close and flush? :candle: :toilet:

:laugh4:

[Strike For The South]

Texan.

Cycle complete shall I close and flush? :candle: :toilet:

:laugh4:

ausisie

[Papewaio]

To be precise I'm a West Islander...

[Strike For The South]

To be precise I'm a West Islander...

What you do in the privacy of your own home is no concern of mine

[TevashSzat]

Okay....I leave the Org for a few weeks and the Olympics thread is now about French Military History????:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Crazed Rabbit]

What you do in the privacy of your own home is no concern of mine

LoL!


The French and the Ottomans were allies in the Crimean War.

France wants a recount.

CR

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I never understood something about that losers thing. If anything, France was known for having the strongest army by World War I, and by being a Great Military Power.

Dark Ages:

-Let's start at the dawn of France itself. The Franks. What about a Merovingian expansion, where the
Frankish king "Charles the Great" managed to become Holy Roman Emperor, who conquered half of Italy, Catalonia, Bohemia, Poland, etc.? Were not those victories?

-What about the victories over the Arabs, which spared France (And most probably other parts of Europe) from falling to the Muslims?

Middle Ages:

-What about the Norman (French) conquest of England, actually initiating the first major dynastical house of England?

-What about the Norman conquests in Sicily and lower Italy?

-What about the victory at the HYW (I never understood why they say Jean d'Arc isn't French She was born, raised and died in France. Supposedly speaking to angels, doesn't make her un-french, nor does it question the might and valor of French soldiers.)?

Renaissance:

-What about the Thirty Years War, where French and Swedish armies sucessively defeated Imperial German armies, allowing for freedom of the Protestants German States. And making France an undisputed power in Europe for centuries?

-What about Louis XIV's expansion in France and surroundings, which ultimatly led to a formation of several coalitions to stop his expansion?

Revolutionary France:

-What about the First Coalition War? Where a war-torn revolutionary France, invaded by all the European powers, manages to defeat them all, and even advance into foreign territory?

Victorian Age:

-What about the victory over the Austrians which unfolded the Unification of Italy?

-What about the victories over the Ottomans in the Crimean Wars?

I could go on, but then again I suppose my point has been made, and heck, I'm not even French. I just don't get it why it spread about that the French never won a war...




Well.... We did have to save the French during World War 2! :laugh4:

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think that this thread has died a natural death if we are reduced to cheap shots at France.

Thank you for all constructive contributions.

:closed: