Freedom

[Tribesman]

Just for a laugh I was wondering if anyone can find any of the numerous studies of worldwide freedom that place a certain rather populous western nation near the top of the list .
Purely of course for educational purposes for those with a head in the sand approach to these things.~;)
I would of course post some links myself , but I am unable to type things like "worldwide freedom index" into one of them computerthingys and don't have an internetswhatsit or a working mind .

[ICantSpellDawg]

Just for a laugh I was wondering if anyone can find any of the numerous studies of worldwide freedom that place a certain rather populous western nation near the top of the list .
Purely of course for educational purposes for those with a head in the sand approach to these things.~;)
I would of course post some links myself , but I am unable to type things like "worldwide freedom index" into one of them computerthingys and don't have an internetswhatsit or a working mind .

Freedom in the World Report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World_(report))

Is this the one you mean?

[Ronin]

Just for a laugh I was wondering if anyone can find any of the numerous studies of worldwide freedom that place a certain rather populous western nation near the top of the list .
Purely of course for educational purposes for those with a head in the sand approach to these things.~;)
I would of course post some links myself , but I am unable to type things like "worldwide freedom index" into one of them computerthingys and don't have an internetswhatsit or a working mind .

Reporters Sans Frontières - 2008 Annual Press freedom report (http://www.rsf.org/IMG/pdf/rapport_en-2.pdf)

[Tribesman]

Why thank you very much gentlemen , who would have thought that somewhere as complex and hard to use as wikipedia would have direct links to these and dozens of other studies or that a quick typing of a few words into a search engine would make them appear like magic.

It certainly clarifies someones statement beyond any doubt . His country is head and shoulders above the rest of the world , if you put it on a big pair of stilts and remove lots of countries from the world .

Now I must say that I intended this as no comment on the decency of any nation or its citizens , just a demonstration to those whose errrrr.....patriotic fervour seems to make them blind to reality .

For a bit more fun does anyone want to find the couple of studies where the country in question actually makes it into the top 10 ? Just like to show that not all the studies come to quite the same conclusions .

[ICantSpellDawg]

What thread is this coming from? I'm sure that you are talking about the U.S., but I can't see what the point is. Canada is rated as top tier for their treatment of journalists, but if you say the wrong thing as a private citizen you could be tried for crimes against humanity in some sort of modern inquisition. The rankings that I quoted put the US Freedom level on the same level as most of the West.

Who said this thing that you are incredibly vaguely alluding to?

[Adrian II]

I founda list of biggest beer drinkers of the world and the Irish come second. I guess that explains a lot.

[CountArach]

I founda list of biggest beer drinkers of the world and the Irish come second. I guess that explains a lot.
Woo! Go Australia! #4! #4!

[HoreTore]

I founda list of biggest beer drinkers of the world and the Irish come second. I guess that explains a lot.

Damn.... Norway is way down in #29... Better fix that this weekend.

[Tribesman]

What thread is this coming from? I'm sure that you are talking about the U.S., but I can't see what the point is. Canada is rated as top tier for their treatment of journalists, but if you say the wrong thing as a private citizen you could be tried for crimes against humanity in some sort of modern inquisition. The rankings that I quoted put the US Freedom level on the same level as most of the West.

Who said this thing that you are incredibly vaguely alluding to?

Ah an explanation is in order
Well someone suggested that their country was head and shoulders above the rest of the world when it came to things like freedom democracy and censorship .
When challenged about the ludicrous claim they were quite adamant that they were right and everyone else was wrong .
The mods suggested starting a new topic to avoid further derailing the america ain't gonna be white topic so here it is .
The pretty wide variety of studies readily and easily available show that the country is by no means above the others and is often a head below them in those categories .

[Adrian II]

Ah an explanation is in order
Well someone suggested that their country was head and shoulders above the rest of the world when it came to things like freedom democracy and censorship .
When challenged about the ludicrous claim they were quite adamant that they were right and everyone else was wrong .
The mods suggested starting a new topic to avoid further derailing the america ain't gonna be white topic so here it is .
The pretty wide variety of studies readily and easily available show that the country is by no means above the others and is often a head below them in those categories .I see.

Well, that poster said American is the freest country according to him.

He didn't say it was the freest country according to some internet site that Tribesman comes up with.

So until further order that poster may have a case. Eh? :mellow:

[rvg]

The pretty wide variety of studies readily and easily available show that the country is by no means above the others and is often a head below them in those categories .

Ummm....no. It actually hasn't proved a thing.

My original claim that U.S. is head and shoulders above the other western nations in terms of freedom.

Your claim was that the U.S. is at best in the top 40.


First link has proved that all western countries qualify as free democracies (something that I never disputed)

Second link is highly questionable and not at all representative of the overall level of freedom.


Long story short, you can go ahead and keep looking.... so far, I am rather unimpressed.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It depends on what kind of freedom we're talking about. Freedom of the press, freedom to own guns, economic freedom, freedom to vote...

[Adrian II]

"The poor ranking of the United States (17th) is mainly because of the number of journalists arrested or imprisoned there. Arrests are often because they refuse to reveal their sources in court. Also, since the 11 September attacks, several journalists have been arrested for crossing security lines at some official buildings."Phoey, America! :stare:


https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2993/rofl1kp4.gif (https://imageshack.us)

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Martian Maniac is on the money. :yes:

We are comparing apples and oranges. Freedom means something different in America (an in rvg's posts) then it does in Europe. An American says he's more free because he can carry firearms, a European claims he's more free because he does not have to worry about people baring arms. An American feels free because there are few restrictions on companies. A European feels free because his food is well protected by keeping food conglomorates in check. Americans hold freedom of speech for a sacred right. Europeans will ban Mein Kampf but subsidise minority broadcasts and public libraries to make sure all voices are heard and can be heard.

Or, absense of governmental interference means freedom to Americans. No interference is the default state, the highest freedom. Any intrusion by the government into this natural state then is a 'breach' of freedom. Commonly accepted for reasons political or social necessity of course. But the rule is, the more interference, the less freedom.
In Europe, freedom is more commonly defined as 'being free from X'. Be it freedom from poverty, freedom from nazis, freedom from want. America then, is thought to be not free because Black children can die of starvation while nazis roam the streets and the food is near poisonous.
I lack the precise terminology. But the difference is not the same as the difference between classic human rights and social rights. There's more to it than that.


It is an interesting difference. More interesting than a Kindergarten sandbox mine-is-bigger contest. And far more interesting than 'OMG, you aer the stoopidist fool otnhe internets hahaha L0Lz'. RVG was quite correct about most of his assertions in the other thread. However, by his standards he was. The Euros are correct too, that America is not the most democratic and free country in the world. In turn, by their standards.

Which one is better, or more free, is a matter of personal political preference. I do not have a set preference for either. In fact, most people don't, and many political discussions on either side of the Atlantic are fought out domestically precisly along these lines.

To be honest, I think there is little to choose between Western Europe, North America, and the usual assorted places elsewhere when it comes to the amount of freedom. One problem that puzzles my mind, is that Singaporeans also lay claim to being more free. For different reasons altogether. Their system is clearly more authoritarian than Western systems, certainly less free by American or European standards. 'Yes, we have corporeal punishment, but unlike the in the West, our women can walk the streets at three 'o clock at night because we have a near zero crime rate'. Are they more free than us or not? I honestly don't know.

[Strike For The South]

When a Frenchman makes sense God kills a kitten....I hope you're happy

[Tribesman]

Freedom means something different in America (an in rvg's posts) then it does in Europe. An American says he's more free because he can carry firearms,
And rvg might of been right , if he hadn't extended his claim to include political freedom , freedom of speech and association and censorship .

[Gregoshi]

And why can't we extend our claim Tribesy? Afterall, we Americans put the "dom" in "freedom".

[Papewaio]

Measuring distances is not the same in US and EU.

Measuring social advantages is a much more disparate as theform of measures between them is almost polar opposites.

[Conradus]

And why can't we extend our claim Tribesy? Afterall, we Americans put the "dom" in "freedom".

Considering that "dom" means "dumb" in Dutch, this is actually a very funny statement.

[Adrian II]

In Europe, freedom is more commonly defined as 'being free from X'. Be it freedom from poverty, freedom from nazis, freedom from want. It was American President Franklin Delano Roosevelt who first mentioned freedom from want and freedom from fear among the essential freedoms of mankind. I don't think these have ever been uniquely or even predominantly European values. In fact Roosevelt's own New Deal proves that freedom from want was as American as apple pie at the time. It replaced the heartless Republican view of the twenties and early thirties. Just as Obama's policies may replace their modern variety which was coined in the days of 'trickle-down economics'. Generally speaking Americans care, and care deeply, about poverty and want in their own country, and the idea that they wouldn't give a hoot if someone dies from starvation is a hopeless wishy-washy pinko Eurocommie caricature.

[Gregoshi]

Considering that "dom" means "dumb" in Dutch, this is actually a very funny statement.
It's nice to know the pun is even better in dutch. :2thumbsup: