View Full Version : Who says that all-knight army can\'t beat all-infantry?
Yesterday I assaulted to recapture Austria with my German army of 15 units Chivalric Knights valour 1 and a unit of militia seargents(the general with ***). I had to deal with 7 hungarian militia sergents, 4 spearmen,2 halbertiers many peasants and a Royal Knights (the Hungarian King with *****). There was no enemy unit without at least 3 flags.My knights had to fight their way up a hill against simple spearmen and peasants and when they did so,took positions against the core of the hungarian infantry.
Although outnumbered,tired and even less experienced (valour 1 vs 3) the charge was enough to make them all flee. I finaly lost the battle from the reinforcments,but as far as I know I lost 248 knights while the Hungarians 1574 infantry (almost completly spears).
I love using heavy cavalry but IMHO I believe that all the frustration about HCvSpears is mostly phsycological.The fact that we know that those spearmen have a bonus vs my Kataphraktoi will make me hesitant to charge them.A small unit of Knights will finally beat the lower spear units (spearmen,sergents,arabic spear infantry except saracen etc) but with many losses.
that and the fact that a group of spears charging a group of non spears is an unstoppable wall of death, since thier front side negates charge bonuses.
Soapyfrog
10-31-2002, 21:07
An all Feudal/Royal Knight army gave me by far one of the toughest fights I have ever had.
I had a 5 star general, he had a two star general, my army was composed of 6 Saracen Infantry, 6 Ottoman Infantry, 3 Armenian Heavy cav, and my General with Ghulam Bodyguards. All my troops had some degree of armor upgrade.
I won the battle but I sustained worse than 60% casualties... at one point during the battle ALL my units were wavering (flashing route flag) but the enemy broke mere split-seconds before I did.
Orda Khan
10-31-2002, 21:17
Quote Originally posted by Soapyfrog:
An all Feudal/Royal Knight army gave me by far one of the toughest fights I have ever had.
I had a 5 star general, he had a two star general, my army was composed of 6 Saracen Infantry, 6 Ottoman Infantry, 3 Armenian Heavy cav, and my General with Ghulam Bodyguards. All my troops had some degree of armor upgrade.
I won the battle but I sustained worse than 60% casualties... at one point during the battle ALL my units were wavering (flashing route flag) but the enemy broke mere split-seconds before I did.[/QUOTE]
Yes but doesn't it make you feel good
............Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
Soapyfrog
10-31-2002, 21:27
I did breathe a huge sigh of relief when I heard his retreat trumpets sound...
Actually the battle was a welcome switch from the the AI dithering in front of my line until they've been largely killed off by arrow fire.
Once I was attacked by a huge pope's army full of royal and feudal knights (90%) with POpe himself. My army consisted of italian infantry (some were mercs)mainly with no archers. The battle was very easy to win. It was important to choose the proper formation and location of my troops. Initial charge of cavalry is very tough, but if you can hold it, you'll win. My italians suffers serious casualties during first seconds of attack, but they didn't rout thanks to right position they were. And after first charge cavalry couldn't do anything to my men and lost with extremely big casualties.
So succesful initial charge is vital for cavalry and few seconds make it clear. This work for all cavalry except kataphraktoi. Strange but they can make spearmen rout even without close combat at all. Once several units of kats made my army rout although my army was twice bigger, consisted of spearmen mainly.
Soapy... those battles are indeed the secondmost fun... I simply love to lose a splendid battle... A battle where it is impossible to win, or where the AI does really good. Battles that are so hard (not because of numbers) and close run it makes you sweat.
Too bad that once this battle is done the army that beat you is so depleted that it can't do it again, or at the very least give you a fight that makes you suffer.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
chunkynut
10-31-2002, 22:04
Quote Originally posted by Ktonos:
Yesterday I assaulted to recapture Austria with my German army of 15 units Chivalric Knights valour 1 and a unit of militia seargents(the general with ***). I had to deal with 7 hungarian militia sergents, 4 spearmen,2 halbertiers many peasants and a Royal Knights (the Hungarian King with *****). There was no enemy unit without at least 3 flags.My knights had to fight their way up a hill against simple spearmen and peasants and when they did so,took positions against the core of the hungarian infantry.
Although outnumbered,tired and even less experienced (valour 1 vs 3) the charge was enough to make them all flee. I finaly lost the battle from the reinforcments,but as far as I know I lost 248 knights while the Hungarians 1574 infantry (almost completly spears).
I love using heavy cavalry but IMHO I believe that all the frustration about HCvSpears is mostly phsycological.The fact that we know that those spearmen have a bonus vs my Kataphraktoi will make me hesitant to charge them.A small unit of Knights will finally beat the lower spear units (spearmen,sergents,arabic spear infantry except saracen etc) but with many losses.
[/QUOTE]
In writing your post you answered it! You lost LOL http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Galestrum
10-31-2002, 23:40
you took the pinnacle of western knights of the high era against the lowest swine of the early era infantry and lost.
at first glane you had around a 5 to 1 kill ratio which looks real nice and all, but now add up the value of your lost units vs the value of his lost units...and youll see that you lost (the actual battle and money wise)
Yes, but don't you (I mean most of the users in the forum) critisize the fact that spear units have an easy job against HC? The fact that a knight unit of 40 is prised 600-800 florins and will loose against the 100 cheap spear bearers? Well as far as I know many many spearbearers where lost before my knights retreated. If there where only 16 units of those to deal with the cav would easily be victorius. And in fact they were because now the defenders are redused to below 1000 men.
Soapyfrog
11-01-2002, 01:47
Equivalent value of spearmen will beat mounted knights, that, I think, is true.
vexatious
11-01-2002, 01:54
how about posting a replay...if you have one. Is there a place to go and view replays? I love them.
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Subject or Object?
Soapyfrog
11-01-2002, 01:58
I didn't think to save mine, and Ktonos's involves reinfrcements so it is certainly screwed up, alas.
Nial Black Knee
11-01-2002, 04:55
The other day I was bored, so I decided to test the HvyCav vs Spear theory. I used set
battles with monetarily equal forces. I playtested Knights from all three era's vs equal spear type infantry. I tested every
Hvy cav unit in the game. I attacked w/ the Cav over and over on several types of terrain
and different formations. They lost everytime! As disscussed and agreed on before by most of us Hvy Cav cannot perform
as they should. If you spend equal money on ea. force the high lvl spearmen will always win. With a competent general! They should either make them stronger or reduce their cost.
Ticondarova
11-01-2002, 06:50
It has alos been noted that as history progressed the Cavalry unit became less and less effective, also that the advantage that cav have are better used in a tactical approach rather than direct spear vs cav.
Ie, charge the flank or rear
czaralex
11-01-2002, 06:59
This is why you need to mod your knight stats, because I usually play with the Germans, I changed the stats for the Gothic Knights to make it more realistic.
Warning: to not change them too much, I did this the first time and was very suprised when my 2 units of Gothics destroyed about 2000 Almohad Urbans militias, even though I only sent them to try to get into the rear and attack the archers. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Boys theres a lesson here that comes not from war but from love - like sex its not about the meat its about the motion.
Timing is everything just charging cav into a wall of spears is not just a waste but foolish and will be over like a 5 minutes of bedroom grunting.
But!
bring them charging in whilst the battle rages can turn the day in your favour and not just saves you more losses but the collapsing enemy flanks usually results in every enemy man and his dog fleeing for their worthless lives.
AS IN SEX TIMING IS EVERYTHING
Quote Originally posted by YunDog:
AS IN SEX TIMING IS EVERYTHING[/QUOTE]
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ah !! combining my 2 favourite pass times ..love the analogy.
Cheers
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PSYCHO HOJO / PSYCHO SO
SP is not MP. Try charging spears frontally uphill with knights in MP and you'd be slaughtered.
Katasaki Hirojima
11-01-2002, 10:22
Arcism- I hope thats not a bad thing..I mean LOL Gawd, give the spearman SOME credit. A mere wooden lance with a pointed end could puncture armour when rideing on to the point at full charge. Albeit the lance would break and the rider wouldn't die from the puncture, but it makes you wonder what a steel tipped, sharp and sturdy spear might do when presented against your breastplate at full gallop. 40 impaled knights and 40 broken spears is what you'd probably get get.
I'v (FInnaly) gotten the game and have to agree, timeing is everything with cavalry. They can be used like...Runningbacks in a football game to exploit a gap in the lines, burst through. Or like wide ends(Er..not sure, dunno my posistion names well. *L*) to come around the side and hit fro mthe rear. That usually takes to long for me, the battles won or lost by the time they get around, so I use them like Runningbacks. SOmetimes I use the light cavalry as wideends and the Heavy Kataphractoi as my runningbacks. *L*
Heh, I normally don't consider myself a really 'manly' guy. I'm a anti-masculinist. But I DO understand football. Since we lost cable its the only thing decent on to watch besides the news!
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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.
I agree that equilavent spears will beat knights,but that mean that you will propably have a battle with 800 spearmen vs 40 Chivalric Knights...thats 20 to 1.And I agree that if they have to mod anything it should be the cost - not the ability scores.
And , no I don't have a replay.
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