Dealing With Cav. As England

[Tratorix]

What works best for dealing with cavalry as England? Militia spears appear to be rubbish and can only take down lighter cav. units. Also, is it better to form your unit up, let it absorb the cavalry charge, then attack or just charge at them right away?

[PBI]

Longbowmen's stakes are a brutally effective anti-cavalry weapon on the defense. Failing that, your best bet is probably to pin them with your own cavalry and engage with infantry to wipe them out once bogged down. England's 2-handers (Dismounted English Knights, various flavours of Billmen) perform decently against cavalry in prolonged melee since the 1.2 patch, but cannot withstand a cavalry charge; hence it is best to counter-charge with your own cavalry since cavalry charges aren't nearly as effective against other cavalry as against infantry.

English Knights are also surprisingly effective counter-cavalry since their secondary weapons are armour-piercing axes, which gives them a real edge in a scrap against similarly armoured knights. In all the English have several powerful anti-cavalry tactics, but since they lack the most obvious one (pikes/heavy spearmen) it takes a little creativity to use them well. You could make a more traditional anti-cavalry force if you can afford enough Mercenary Spearmen, but don't even bother with Levy Spears, they are essentially Spear Militia but without the free upkeep in cities, they have no chance against heavy cavalry.

[PrestigeX]

well despite the obvious use of stakes,
probably the best thing you can do is have your archers concentrate fire on the enemy's heavy cavalry.
using your own Knights against heavy cavalry is a waste, because it just tends to be a slug match and you will lose enough of your own troops, UNLESS your archers have halfed their numbers, your cav will ride them down.

Don't worry too much about the enemy's infantry, because you will be building armored swordsmen when they are available.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Cavalry versus infantry is a bad, bad matchup.... except when they have a FORMED CHARGE.
Don't allow them to have a formed charge. Disrupt their formed charge with stakes, pikemen, javelins, crossbow/archer fire, or something very simple:

Charge the formed charge with your own cavalry (whatever pathetic grade.) Then, the two cavalry units will be stuck in melee until the computer withdraws. Then you can:

Send in armour-piercing axemen,
throw a hail of javelins,
send in a bunch of spearmen,
even swordsmen will do.

ANYTHING with a high "attack" rating. Billmen... double handed weapons. As long as they have high attack, outnumber the stuck horsemen, and can pierce armour (not even technically required), they will massacre the horsemen. if the enemy horsemen try to escape, run after them with yours, and keep up with your anti-cavalry infantry I named above. Your horsemen will kill other horsemen who are running away (especially if they are light cavalry) and if they turn to melee your light cavalry, send in more javelins, axemen, spearmen... Their morale will crumble, their numbers dwindle, and their formed charge is useless. In melee, they die when surrounded by massed high-attack infantry.

[Ratwar]

As people have already said, the English have plenty of anti-calvary weapons, especially in the form of longbows. Stakes will slaughter any calvary units (including your own so be careful).

Personally, if I don't have the option of stakes, a use a two fold strategy for dealing with calvary. If they open the battle with a calvary charge (which is almost always straight up the middle), I let my bowmen absorb the attack. They'll suffer about 50% casualties, if not more, but the calvary will be in a melee situation in front of your entire army. Plus they either be totally unsupported or (in an even better situation for you) their own troops will keep them from withdrawing.

Now if they hold off on using their calvary in the beginning, you can use your archers to slim down their numbers. Then once they commit their calvary, your own can immediately counter their attack.

[TheLastPrivate]

Due to animation related issues billmen still suck, best bet is to concentrate missile fire, then pin it with your own heavy cavalry. Merc spears work as well if you need to fill in the gaps when fighting cavalry-heavy armies.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Interesting, Ratwar.

If I might suggest, bowmen are good, because you can set them to skirmish mode and run away, that helps break up charges. Others, like javelins are also effective in skirmish mode. it's difficult to get a formed charge going against a mobile enemy. However, I feel you might be taking too many unnecessary casualties.

(Listen to me, I'm becoming an old softie... caring about my troops? WTH?) :no:

I can deal with some militia or worthless infantry casualties, because that's basically what they are for. Keeping my heavier infantry, archers, and artillery from being caught by mounted units, so I don't have to send them back to my homelands for retraining. I can always hire whatever infantry and mercenaries as meat shields wherever I am on campaign, no need to return home for top units.

But I believe good, powerful, professional archers, artillery, and heavy infantry need to be guarded. And even in the example where you can disrupt a formed charge with other cavalry, it would not be a melee engagement to the death. The infantry would rush in behind them and destroy what's left of them. They flee and get destroyed by light cavalry lances, javelins, and arrows. Protect the skilled members of your military at all costs.

If not with light or melee cavalry, then definitley use the less skilled meat shields you can recruit while on campaign... peasants, peasant archers perhaps, mercenary spearmen, mercenary crossbows. Pikemen are the best, but they are worthless against anything but cavalry, and for defending your city from seige armies. You can't make a greek army of pikemen versus gunpowder, archers, horse archers, and heavy cavalry in the open field. And heavy infantry just destroys them.

Be flexible, be economical, and use worthless infantry if you're going to meatshield. Remember that light cavalry is quicker, more maneuverable, and perfect for blocking formed charges. And they are easy to recruit and ship towards the front lines, especially with a drillmaster general. Try to reduce casualties from unnecessary formed charges, unnecessary heavy infantry melee situations, unnecessary archer fire, unnecessary artillery fire.

Identify the largest threat to your soldier's lives. Artillery and archers are both devastating in seiges, cavalry is more devastating in the field. Deflect their most destructive abilities with smart tactics. Use artillery of your own in seiges for offense and defense, and your own archers and cavalry, perhaps, for defense in seiges. Use pikemen and heavy infantry for street fighting and wear them down faster than they wear you down.

In the field, deflect formed charges, destroy their cavalry, and attempt to make their archers and artillery rout or flee with your own cavalry. Avoid direct confrontations with enemy infantry unless you're sure the melee will be brief, or you can outflank and charge them, or if you've already weakened them with archer fire so they rout.

Also be sure to destroy the enemy general if he is alone, as your top priority, as soon as it's feasible. Routing units don't fight very effectively. Keep some fast horses to mop up the mess and imprison, ransom, or execute, or even release them for your benefits. Fewer casualties means less time wasted on campaign waiting for retraining, reinforcements, or retreating. Fewer casualties means you can fight more consecutive battles without weakening. It can mean the difference between holding the line against an enemy assault, or your entire border crumbling.

It can mean your invasion into Germany continues, or fails. Every fallen soldier is one you have to replace.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Due to animation related issues billmen still suck, best bet is to concentrate missile fire, then pin it with your own heavy cavalry. Merc spears work as well if you need to fill in the gaps when fighting cavalry-heavy armies.

I had better luck during a Kingdoms campaign. Did they fix them?

I was facing a terrible battle of attrition. I had a huge garrison of some 1,080 English militia, archers, cavalry, etc. Easy win, but losses would be high.

I had recruited some 3 units of English Billmen as Ireland... I used artillery to smash the walls and gates and force them back to the town square. Now, the dirty work. I sent in my billmen and they tore through those militia men like butter. I ended up getting less than 200 casualties, and the billmen were only depleted by 1/2.

I nearly peed my pants with ecstacy, but I decided to relieve myself on the dead corpses of Englishmen who were foolish enough to oppose me.

[Ratwar]

Interesting, Ratwar.

If I might suggest, bowmen are good, because you can set them to skirmish mode and run away, that helps break up charges. Others, like javelins are also effective in skirmish mode. it's difficult to get a formed charge going against a mobile enemy. However, I feel you might be taking too many unnecessary casualties.

(Listen to me, I'm becoming an old softie... caring about my troops? WTH?) :no:


Yes, that would be the 'perfect' way to set up the defense, and I often pull that type of thing off, but not every time (I have this addiction to 'just one more volley'). Besides, I tend to see skirmish mode as very bugged. For some reason my archers like to run sideways instead of backward. So I tend to do it manually, which causes problems with timing. I should also note that the 50% casualties is usually limited to 1 unit, and if your playing as England you'll usually have so many Longbows (because they're awesome) that half a unit isn't that important.

(Apparently I'm just heartless).

[Askthepizzaguy]

I've brutally murdered and dismembered over ten million enemy troops, personally destroying hundreds of thousands with my general's bodyguard unit alone. The amount of blood shed under my direct command could fill the Red Sea, and it would be more aptly named. I've sacked innocent towns, pillaged entire cities, looted and destroyed the greatest monuments in western and eastern civilization, destroyed entire races of people, callously slaughtered a hundred thousand men, women, and children in their beds, personally ordered the destruction of entire lines of Popes, ordered the assassinations of a thousand of Europe's greatest generals, holy men, and diplomats. I've forced my subjects to work in my mines and my weapons making facilities, conscripted millions to die in foreign wars they had no business being a part of, engaged in brutal treachery and international crimes such as betraying allies the instant they sign a treaty of alliance, taking their gifts of gold florins paid for promises I would never honour, and slit the throats of those who were foolish enough to talk to my emissaries of doom. I've intentionally fired rounds of artillery projectiles, flaming rocks, arrows, cannonballs and explosive shells directly into the homes of civilians and ordered entire cities burned to the ground, and impaled all those who questioned my orders, dared to oppose me, or mispronounced my name.

You could say I'm rather heartless myself. But, in this case, a more efficient use of your conscripted men would bring about a greater amount of chaos and destruction in a smaller span of time.

If your goal is to destroy all opposition, claim reign over the entire Earth, and bring about the Apocalypse, as is my goal, then a little thing like keeping your archers away from formed charges can make a slight difference. Every little bit helps. When I see civilization, I want to burn it down as fast as possible and declare myself the ruler of the obedient and servile sub-species which remains.

Why do I do this, you may ask? I think I ate a stale cracker one time and I've been in a grumpy mood ever since.



________________________________________

[PBI]

What's this, AskThePizzaguy using artillery? The world has truly gone mad. Next thing you know he'll be using merchants.

Good point ratwar, running away is the smartest thing any infantry except heavy spears and pikes can do in the face of a formed charge, only the guys at the very back will get wiped out by the charge before it runs out of steam, rather than the whole unit.

[Old Geezer]

I thought for sure the English get armored sarges. The AI rarely will charge armored sergeants, but what better thing do you want from the AI but to charge into them?

[Jason X]

england gets armoured sarges in many mods (including the lite one) but not in vanilla

[Monsieur Alphonse]

In vanilla England doesn't have armored sergeants, but fully upgraded levy spears are usual good enough to do the job.

[Freddybear]

In vanilla England doesn't have armored sergeants, but fully upgraded levy spears are usual good enough to do the job.

England can recruit Armoured Sergeants from a Barracks in a Fortress.

[PBI]

Not in vanilla. They can in some mods, I believe Retrofit for one.

[Freddybear]

Not in vanilla. They can in some mods, I believe Retrofit for one.

I'm talking about the Grand Campaign game. Is that what you mean by "vanilla"?
Isn't Stainless Steel installed in separate folders?

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Vanilla is the original unmodded grand campaign. Unless you have modded or changed something or play a mod, there are no armored sergeants in M2TW. They are recruitable in kingdoms and many mods.

[Freddybear]

I have Kingdoms and Stainless Steel installed, but I'm playing the original grand campaign. I thought that the mods were separate from that.

[gardibolt]

If all else fails, putting your spearmen into schiltrom formation (I think levy spearmen can do this---I know at least one of England's spearmen units can, but it's been a while) can help make a cav charge much more painful for the chargers.

[Marauder]

I find that mercs are the best way to go. Swiss pikemen mercs and just the usual merc spearmen work great, but are a bit expensive. I'm rolling in the dough in my current campaign and can't spend it fast enough, so that isn't an issue. Dealing with Mongol Heavy lancers is.

[rossahh]

Vanilla is the original unmodded grand campaign. Unless you have modded or changed something or play a mod, there are no armored sergeants in M2TW. They are recruitable in kingdoms and many mods.

I think what you meant was there are no armored sergeants for Enlgand in vanilla M2TW. Other catholic nations can recruit them.

[A Nerd]

Armored Sergeants can be recruited by England in the Britannia campaign of kingdoms...not sure about grand campaign

[TheLastPrivate]

English Armoured Seargents are in the Britannia campaign in Kingdoms, but not in the unmodded grand camapaign (i.e. "vanilla").

[Fulliautomatix]

England (and other spear-poor factions, for that matter) are very playable against enemy cavalry. I agree that the best way for the English to deflect cavalry is (besides using the longbowmen's stakes) some combination of:

1. using your spear militia either in schiltrom formation (where I've found the spear militia to become surprisingly effective), or just using them to absorb a formed charge; by breaking up a formed charge, you can then slaughter the enemy cavalry with...

2. ... DFK's or English Armored Swords. In fact if I am short of spears, I will use these guys to absorb a formed charge. Sure, they'll instantly lose 30% of their men, but once the charge is over, I have found that, post-impact, that the playing field is even between your foot knight unit and their cavalry unit (and obviously massively in your favour if playing in the trees or snow). Most enemy generals I have slaughtered with foot knights. Plus, DFK's and Armored Swords have a high enough morale that when they are hit by a formed charge of enemy knights, they won't break and go running like little girls.

3. Mercenary spearmen. They're generally available throughout most of Europe, and the recruitment pool rebuilds rapidly.

In fact I find that the English are playable against any faction with an army consisting exclusively of longbows, Armored Swords and a couple of any cavalry unit (mostly for chasing routers).

[ArtistofWarfare]

I've been using the French for days in custom battle scenarios and kind of falling into a different style of play than I found myself comfortable with in previous TW's...either way, I'll try to offer my own suggestion here:

Envelopment.

The English are going to get flanked when facing an army that is formed primarily around Heavy Cavalry. It's just going to happen. Either you are going to be so short on cavalry that you just don't have enough to match up with the enemy's and negate their cavalry on your flanks, or your cavalry is going to get banged around quick by the enemy's superior cavalry and you'll find yourself in the shortage department early regardless.

My suggestion is to simply accept that your flanks are going to drown within the first few minutes of the main infantry clash in the middle of the battlefield. You should analyze your formation and determine where the enemy cavalry will just break through the lines early- determine your weak points and predict where the enemy will be able to punch a hole. Once you've done this, you should have a rearguard comprised of at least one unit of your own heavy cavalry and several units of the best spearman (or best anti cav you can field) you can put back there. Position these units in the best possible position to react to the enemy cavalry that will break through your lines. Further, assess where these units will meet the enemy flankers/line breakers and then position missile units that will be able to direct fire onto this position.

The idea here is to be able to have strongpoints on your lines that do NOT break (England's infantry lineup is quite fine for this) and then have the ability to immediately close up and seal off any portions of the lines (or flanks) that do break. Once you've sealed these positions up and reacted to them during the battle, focus that missile fire on them. Hold up cav with spears, focus missle/artillery fire on the position and then punch this position with your own heavy cavalry you had in the rear.

Again- just concede immediately that you don't have the horses to out run or out flank the enemy, nor do you have the horses to even prevent them from flanking you. That's not England's thing.

What IS England's thing is their heavy infantry and missile fire. Again, to utilize this to your advantage you need to make the focus of the battle the middle of both armies, not the flanks. The most effective way to go about doing this is as described above and to layer your army on the battlefield. One long line or even two long lines is just asking to be flanked.

You need a vanguard that will not break and will own the middle of the field, pushing the enemy back. You need a 2nd line of spears that can immediately react to any cavalry that break through your lines or flank you and pin them down. You then need your heavy cavalry and missile units to hit these units with everything they have before they start causing your lines to collapse/route.

Think about the old game where people put their hand on top of the other person's hand on a baseball bat. Over and over until someone reaches the top of the handle. This is the similar idea here. You drive down middle of field with offensive infantry so the enemy flanks you. You seal that flank off from the rear and now - it doesn't exist anymore- flanks are closed again. Meanwhile, your heavy inf keeps pushing down the middle of the field. Over time, the enemy is forced to either stop focusing on the flanks and focus on the middle of the field (which is what you want him to do) or they will just wear themselves out by thinning their lines out...gradually pulling more and more of their cav and other units from the main bulk of your army, to your flanks.

Regarding envelopment: You also don't want a dead straight line. You want to position your army in a way that it folds/collapses (at the weak points) the way you want it to- and into a good position to get sealed off by your spearmen. If you prepare this properly, you should be able to not only hold the middle of the field EASILY, but after the enemy's first flanking attempt, you should hold the flanks pretty easily as well.

It's just a matter of forcing the enemy's hand and negating their strengths while accentuating your own.

Still- the bottom line is that if your enemy has a significant heavy cavalry advantage, they have a significant overall advantage. There's only so much you can do if you're own heavy cav are outmatched 3-1. Even when your infantry vanguard takes the middle of the field, they will get rear ended by whatever cavalry the enemy has left on the flank after it overwhelms your second line that reacts to it.

This is why I don't use England. I feel that there are other armies in the game that are just better overall and have strengths that the English army simply can't negate reliably enough every fight.

I'm using the French because in the entire scenario I just detailed: I still don't see what you would be able to do if I have a 3-1 heavy cav advantage (and a better class of cavalry) and better field artillery than yours- targeting your missile units. The coordinated shock of heavy artillery and heavy cavalry hitting infantry at it's weak points should usually be enough to just break the enemy's fighting capacity over time. It's just too much.

This is why the English army is at it's best when on the defensive. Prepared positions along treelines and buildings etc, are the best way to protect your flanks. Combine this with stakes and limited spearman and you can force the enemy into frontal cavalry attacks- and once they're pinned down, just pick them apart with your longbows and punch them with your heavy infantry. Other than these sort of defensive battles though- Yes...the English army has some issues when dealing with heavy cavalry.

p.s.- Look at the Battle of Agincourt. You have those heavy trees lining both sides of the battlefield...and this is what really prevents the French Knights from flanking the English army- not the stakes in front of the archers. In that same battle, if the French don't attack frontally, I don't think the English have a prayer...no matter how "unorganized" that army was that day. That battle resulted in such huge French losses because they could not flank...period. They were pinned down in the middle by a superior infantry and then were at the mercy of longbow fire. Attaining this same situation in every battle is giving your English army the best chances at victory. When that's physically impossible? Don't fight the battle imo. You're asking for huge losses.