The meaning of colors: legionary in red?

[Brucaliffo]

I have a degree in roman history at Universitas Studiorum Mediolanensis (and soon in modern history too! :2thumbsup:).

When i was writing my degree thesis (about gladiatura), i found some interesting information about colors in ancient Rome. Speaking with some other fellow student and with some historician researcher, we ended up talking about the use of red color.

It's possible to presume that red should not be used for legions.
Red is a color with a relgious meaning: someone or something dressed in red is dedicated to the Gods (wich in antiquity is between holy and untouchable). Red was used to dress the animals for the holocaust. Red was never used in daily life (if you look at romans frescos -wall painting- you can see that: red where there are Gods, otherwise not).

For the same reasons, red was not used for gladiators: a gladiator fought knowing that he MAY die, not that he WILL die. So he will not be dressed in red, even in "munera sine missione"(games without salvation in wich if you lose, you die), because they do not knew if the will live or die entering the arena.
So i think that, more than so,m the legionaries should never wear red in battle.

Why you choose to use it (i see some unit wearing it)? Maybe you know something i do not know. It will be very interesting to me if someone can explain that! I'm always interested in learning something new! :2thumbsup:

Thank you very much!

[bigmilt16]

I was always curious about this, so its nice to have a resident scholar around. Congrats on the degree too!

Anyways, what was the color Roman soldiers typically use? Did that change during the differing periods of the empire/republic?

[||Lz3||]

do you mean the scuta? (shield?) cause that's the only red the romans use IIRC...

well the original legionaires do have red clothes I bealive... a detail that was corrected in a minimod :sweatdrop:

[mp0925]

also the design of their sheilds is soley based on trajans collumn

[Recoil]

in before LS joke :beam:

[Narhon]

Trajan's column also shows LS being worn.:clown::clown::clown::clown::clown::clown::clown::clown::clown::clown::clown::clown::clown:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
:dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2:
:balloon2::balloon2::balloon2::balloon2::balloon2::balloon2:
:2thumbsup::2thumbsup::2thumbsup::2thumbsup:

[fenix3279]

Maybe so, but lorica segmentata is not historically inaccurate. It's just wasn't very prevalent during EB's time frame. This does nothing to undermine the evidence of other things shown. Just saying.

[||Lz3||]

let's not turn this in another LS thread and stick to the OP question (that now myself have):sweatdrop:

[fenix3279]

Agreed. Besides, lorica hamata is sexier anyway :jester:

Back on topic. I've wondered why red was always thought to be their most prevalent tunic color. Is there any written evidence describing the color of the Roman legionnaire's tunic? I was just wondering how Hollywood's portrayal (gah!) of an all red roman army came into being.

[Apgad]

Wasn't the general's cloak always red? And the knot thing tied around his middle?

I wasn't aware of the significance/importance of red, and had just assumed that it was a blood thing (ie don't let the other side see you bleed).

[fenix3279]

Wasn't the general's cloak always red? And the knot thing tied around his middle?

I wasn't aware of the significance/importance of red, and had just assumed that it was a blood thing (ie don't let the other side see you bleed).
I think that notion was more toward the Spartans way of thinking. I assume red was popular for the Romans because it was cheap.

[||Lz3||]

yeh... the blood lovers are the spartans...

and I don't think red was cheap... if they had wanted cheap... they would have used undyed tunics

I'm wondering about the shield though...

[fenix3279]

yeh... the blood lovers are the spartans...

and I don't think red was cheap... if they had wanted cheap... they would have used undyed tunics

I'm wondering about the shield though...

Well, red was one of the cheaper dyes available at the time but I understand where you're coming from. If they wanted to save money, why not just issue undyed tunics? The best answer I can think of is they wanted a better sense of uniformity. Romans were famous for their discipline and their strict unity. I guess outfitting them all in the same way help better portray that. Another possiblity is that red is the color of Mars (the roman god of war) and they were honoring him by wearing red tunics into battle. Who knows, maybe it was just the emperor's favorite color at the time :2thumbsup: (joking)

[MeinPanzer]

If you are interested in this subject, "Roman Military Clothing (1) 100 BC - AD 200" by Graham Sumner is the book you are looking for. Sumner goes through and lists sources for military clothing colours, and he is quite thorough.

As he notes, the conflicting points of view are the old fashioned one that legionaries regularly wore red and the more modern one that only centurions wore red while legionaries wore white or off-white. To list a few sources:

1. The 4th c. BC Etruscan 'Francois' tomb features a painting depicting a legendary battle between Etruscans and Romans or Latins, one of whom is wearing a red tunic.

2. A wall painting from the House of Valerius Rufus in Pompeii, late Republican or early Imperial in date, shows a soldier, perhaps a representation of a deity, wearing a pinkish-red tunic.

3. Isidore of Seville, Origines XIX, xxii, 10 mentions that Roman soldiers 'under the consuls' were referred to as russati after a dye they used called russata which was 'used to conceal blood' - obviously referring to red.

4. Quintilianus, Declamationes, III Declamatio, 'Pro Milite Contra Tribunum,' 1st c. AD, mentions that Roman soldiers wore the 'terrible dress of the god of war,' which almost certainly refers to red tunics.

The evidence is scattered and sometimes hard to place, but it nonetheless gives the impression that at least some soldiers did wear red.

[sgsandor]

I think we see red for them in the game is just to differentiate between them and principes ( i remeber reading this somewhere) so it was just a game play thing

[Brucaliffo]

First, thank you all guys!!!! :2thumbsup:

I see many units bearing a red scutum, but the cohortes reformatae wear red clothes too. Roman eques wear a red saddle.
I want to say that my question is about red color in Republic/Early Imperium because later the ancient religion/supersticion/symbolism grew weaker and weaker.


If you are interested in this subject, "Roman Military Clothing (1) 100 BC - AD 200" by Graham Sumner is the book you are looking for. Sumner goes through and lists sources for military clothing colours, and he is quite thorough.

I will search that book, thank you!

Anyway i will do some objection to Sumner thesis:


1. The 4th c. BC Etruscan 'Francois' tomb features a painting depicting a legendary battle between Etruscans and Romans or Latins, one of whom is wearing a red tunic.

Painting in tombs are not supposed to represent reality. A legendary battle would be a battle sacred to the Gods: red could be used for that reason. Maybe they want to portray a roman soon to die. I will search for that painting.


2. A wall painting from the House of Valerius Rufus in Pompeii, late Republican or early Imperial in date, shows a soldier, perhaps a representation of a deity, wearing a pinkish-red tunic.

Maybe was a deity... if so, red is normal. I will search for that painting.


3. Isidore of Seville, Origines XIX, xxii, 10 mentions that Roman soldiers 'under the consuls' were referred to as russati after a dye they used called russata which was 'used to conceal blood' - obviously referring to red.

Never listen Isidore of Seville!!! :laugh4: He lived in VI century and pretended to know all about roman life!!! When he was born, the Empire was already dead! :smash:
I say so because i founded Isidore in many works about gladiatura: but he tells often absurdity wich where taken by some historician totally acritically creating some of the twisted visions of gladiatura. :wall:


4. Quintilianus, Declamationes, III Declamatio, 'Pro Milite Contra Tribunum,' 1st c. AD, mentions that Roman soldiers wore the 'terrible dress of the god of war,' which almost certainly refers to red tunics.

Hmmm Tertullian was a christian. Of course he lived in late II century, i'm sure that late legionaries wore red easiest (when the superstion/symbolism of their religion is surely weaker than before).


The evidence is scattered and sometimes hard to place, but it nonetheless gives the impression that at least some soldiers did wear red.

About the scuta i don't know what to say: just i think that they are the most remarkable think in the legion color, so i think they should'nt be red if red was not used for clothes.

[Celtic_Punk]

in my humbly slightly educated opinion (war history is a hobby of mine, so i dont have access to all these university papers, ID KILL TO SIT IN A GIANT ARCHIVE) but the Romans probably used red in the same manner as the Spartans did when it came to war.. To simply mask your own soldiers wounds and blood. and so that after battle youd only have to clean your armour and not have to replace your tunic thats soaked in blood.

[bovi]

May I just say that the way this was taken up is an exemplary way to point out a possible inaccuracy, unfortunately this is outside of the normal here. Thank you, Brucaliffo.

[Lysimachos]

and so that after battle youd only have to clean your armour and not have to replace your tunic thats soaked in blood.

I really think that the main reason for changing clothes soaked in blood is not the colour :inquisitive:

[Recoil]

hehe, couldnt resist the LS joke, but like you said, back on topic.

ive got a theory about it; i read somewhere Caesar was said to forbid any of his officers wearing a red cloak, and instead they wore purple ones. apparently he reserved the crimson hue for himself as it set him apart from the other officers under his command. maybe the fact that caesar was the hero of the Roman Empire they used him as an example and made red the royal colours, making it the stereotype of Rome itself. probably not true but thats what my first guess was

[Tollheit]

ive got a theory about it; i read somewhere Caesar was said to forbid any of his officers wearing a red cloak, and instead they wore purple ones. apparently he reserved the crimson hue for himself as it set him apart from the other officers under his command.

That doesn't sound plausible to me. It would make a lot more sense if it was the other way around.

[paullus]

just looking quickly through my image collection (note: i'm talking about ancient artifacts, not modern representations) I see tunics in a range of white to off-white colors, light and dark blue, and red. Some of the ones I'm looking at may be Etruscans or Italics rather than Romans, but there are enough of these colors shown in enough places near if not in Rome for me to comfortable using that range of colors on units in EB1 and 2.

Sources I used to draw this conclusion: Pompeian paintings, Etruscan paintings, Etruscan painted sarcophagi, Esquiline tomb paintings, Statilii tomb paintings, painted terracottas. Note that I'm not using south Italic painted tombs or vases, as they usually depict non-Romans and show a greater variety, not so much of colors, but of patterns.

Also, on gladiators: the Bad Kraeznak mosaics show a couple of gladiators who seem to be wearing red tunics. Could be an orange color rather than crimson, though, as the pictures I have of them aren't of great quality.

[Brucaliffo]

I know the Bad Kraeznak mosaics, but the morituri shown there are not dressed in red.

Please, if you can, send me a link of that pics! I would like to see them!

[AymericNikator]

I'm also a student in roman history, and during some research I did I found 2 smal text about their costume.
First, in Quintus Horatius Flaccus, epodon, IX, "Victvs hostis pvnico lvgvbre mvtavit sagvm"....
Which means if I am right that Antony had to change his colorfull sagum to a dark one. I, from the evidence that this text give (also see Caesar, B.G, VII, 35)dare say it's a clear statement that the "normal" soldier wore dark and colorless clothes.

The second one is from Marcus Valerius Martialis (Epigrm, XIV, 126) in wich he said something like that(sorry, I lost the text :no:) The Gauls like red, it's a colour that kids and soldiers like also.

Other evidence that I saw suggest the same thing: during the republic the soldiers wore muted colours. But during the Empire the army became more prestigious and wore more beautifull "uniforms" and used red as a military symbol ( Plutarch, Marcellus, XXVI, 1).

I hope what I said was not too stupid and gave a clue to this question. :2thumbsup:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't believe that Red was an exclusive colour in Rome, perhaps one particular hue, but the bands on Senatorial togae as well as Consuls' and Praeotors' cloaks and sashes would have been blood read, though the translation is usually rendered as "purple". One theory I have heard is that the Legionaries wore Red on campaign. The possible reasons for this are practical and religious, and they've already been mentioned. War itself was a particually sacred exercise for the Romans so red tunics would not be unaccountable in that context.

I think the honest answer to this question, like so many others, is that we don't really know. As to EB units, well the Cohors Imperatoria has been redone, the Reformata hasn't, which is the only reason it has a red tunic.

[Brucaliffo]

In Plutarch, Marcellus, XXVI, 1 it seems that one single scarlet tunic is displayed announcing the incoming battle, not that every legionary wear a scarlet tunic. We can say that nobody wear one, if it was so evident when one single scarlet tunic was desplayed.

The meaning of red: consul Decio Mure wore a red band when he trew himself into the enemy line in sacrifice to win the difficult battle of Sentino (295 BC): if so is written, it means that it was important.

The color of tunicae: yes, they had red bands, but i think that you should not see them as a normal cloth. They where sacred clothes to be used in Senato, wich was a sacred place for the Romans. So i think it's possibly for that reason that they had a red band.

[Che Roriniho]

Perhaps red was worn as a morale thing: you can't see other's injuries as clearly if they're dressed in red, so you're les (not by much though) likely to rout.

[Ibrahim]

Perhaps red was worn as a morale thing: you can't see other's injuries as clearly if they're dressed in red, so you're les (not by much though) likely to rout.

actually, it's a myth that red hides the color of blood. I know from experiance: I have a red shirt, and when it was bled on (some blood off me face), the marks appeared as darker red blotches. kinda like how water "darkens" the appearance of cloth, only...bloodier, and blood of course coagulates and darkens.:dizzy2: you're best bet is with darker blues or blacks, and even then...

If romans wore red (if), then it was for a religious context (mars (god)= planet=red); the spartiatai, and, IIRC, the makedonians wore red as well. being both warrior cultures, i imagine they wore it as a religious symbol, to bring the gods closer to them, and aid them...or something to that effect.

[Skandinav]

I just remembered that Polybius writes in Histories, Book 6 in the fragment addressing The Military Institutions of the Romans that the legionnaires ( here hastati, principes and triarii ) wore on top of their helmets three upright feathers, either red or black. So while not concerning the tunics in particular at least it is another indication that the roman infantry were not completely devoid of the color red when campaigning even this early in the Republic ( Histories covers the period 220-146 BC ). He further writes that the feathers were about a cubit in height which while not being a precise measurement suggests that they were somewhat large and together with their placement this could lead to the impression that they were a quite visible coloration.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In Plutarch, Marcellus, XXVI, 1 it seems that one single scarlet tunic is displayed announcing the incoming battle, not that every legionary wear a scarlet tunic. We can say that nobody wear one, if it was so evident when one single scarlet tunic was desplayed.

The meaning of red: consul Decio Mure wore a red band when he trew himself into the enemy line in sacrifice to win the difficult battle of Sentino (295 BC): if so is written, it means that it was important.

The color of tunicae: yes, they had red bands, but i think that you should not see them as a normal cloth. They where sacred clothes to be used in Senato, wich was a sacred place for the Romans. So i think it's possibly for that reason that they had a red band.

Scarlet is not the only shade of red, "Tyrian Purple" was one particular die but there are a considerable number of cheaper red dyes that give a different shade other than Scarlet and Maroon. There is nothing to say one of those wasn't used for the tunics of Roman legionaries.

[MerlinusCDXX]

actually, it's a myth that red hides the color of blood. I know from experiance: I have a red shirt, and when it was bled on (some blood off me face), the marks appeared as darker red blotches. kinda like how water "darkens" the appearance of cloth, only...bloodier, and blood of course coagulates and darkens.:dizzy2: you're best bet is with darker blues or blacks, and even then...

If romans wore red (if), then it was for a religious context (mars (god)= planet=red); the spartiatai, and, IIRC, the makedonians wore red as well. being both warrior cultures, i imagine they wore it as a religious symbol, to bring the gods closer to them, and aid them...or something to that effect.

Best shade I've found for that is a dark rust brown, but it does work a little better AFTER the blood has dried. As for religious context, IIRC both Mars (Roman) and Ares (Hellenic) had red as their sacred color, so I find the religious argument quite convincing.

[Ibrahim]

Best shade I've found for that is a dark rust brown, but it does work a little better AFTER the blood has dried. As for religious context, IIRC both Mars (Roman) and Ares (Hellenic) had red as their sacred color, so I find the religious argument quite convincing.

thnx. never knew the color you said can do that better.:balloon2: