Counter for urbans [Archive]

placenik

08-28-2008, 10:40

Urban cohorts- ultimate infantry of RTW, strong, spirited, deadly. Most of time I wipe romans before they can have them, but I would like to ask you what units can I use effectively against them (except elephants). I did few tests one on one, and only unit I could kill them with were egyptian chairots.

Quintus.JC

08-28-2008, 10:48

Gee... Berserkers and Spartans maybe, They're the first units that came to my mind. I think they will win if the Berserkers got to charge and with warcry ability activated, with the Spartans I doubt any unit in the game could beat them if they fight them while in Phalanx, even armoured Elephants die by the dozen while charging straight ahead.

placenik

08-28-2008, 10:54

Just to add- sacred band in phalanax won a few times, beresekers managed to kill arond 50% of urban unit, then they were anyhilated. Spartans are great, but only recruitable in two cities, so I don't consider them "proper" counter.

Quintus.JC

08-28-2008, 12:10

What about hit and run with Cataphracts. Charge at them, before being engaged in a proper melee pull out, then charge again, can they win that?

Motep

08-29-2008, 03:18

A single unit or agroup?

If it is a single, I would suggest horse archers.

If it is a gruop, I would suggest a balanced army with heavy hoplites, heavy cavalry, and good missile units.

"when is rome...kill an urban or two!"

Quintus.JC

08-29-2008, 09:12

Horse archers won't win against urbans, their armour defence is too high.

placenik

08-29-2008, 12:15

Actually you can destroy anything what doesn't overrange you with HAs. Thing is that you will have to attack-retreat a lot.

Quintus.JC

08-29-2008, 12:17

Haven't got RTW installed right now so can't do any experiments. But if HAs can beat urban Cohorts then they can beat almost anything.

placenik

08-29-2008, 12:46

Haven't got RTW installed right now so can't do any experiments. But if HAs can beat urban Cohorts then they can beat almost anything.
I haven't tried with urbans, only spartans :D Before we get missunderstanding, it is in campaign mode- you come, shoot untill out of arrows and flee. Then repeat. Painfull and tiresome process, but efficent one.

Quintus.JC

08-29-2008, 13:08

I haven't tried with urbans, only spartans :D Before we get missunderstanding, it is in campaign mode- you come, shoot untill out of arrows and flee. Then repeat. Painfull and tiresome process, but efficent one.

I still make my point clear, Urban Cohort has I think 14 armour defences, plus the shield that makes it very durable against missile units. Especially when in Testudo.

placenik

08-29-2008, 13:26

Yes, but when they show up you should be using HAs with at least 6 exp and +2 weapon upgrade. Not to mention that AI thinks urbans are invincable and trys to charge into HAs. And I already said process is annoyingly slow.

Quintus.JC

08-29-2008, 13:51

Well the AI is awfully stupid. They don't know how to use units to its best abilities, but in RTW a crappy unit with high experience could change everything (not that I'm saying Horse Archers are crappy). Even Town watch with gold chelvrons will cause problems.

Emperor Mithdrates

08-29-2008, 14:28

I still make my point clear, Urban Cohort has I think 14 armour defences, plus the shield that makes it very durable against missile units. Especially when in Testudo.

Why not use both HAs' and Cataphracts. Keep shooting the cohort, then retreating untill they form the testudo, then swarm them unexpectantly with cataphracts. It worked for Parthia in real history. :2thumbsup:

Omanes Alexandrapolites

08-29-2008, 21:00

Anything with armour piecing (axemen of all types and berserker units) will always have the best success rate against heavily armoured units. A high bonus is added to their attack when in this situation, giving them a better chance of causing damage. Even so, most of these units will struggle, and will almost always require assistance in their mission.

~:)

Quintus.JC

08-29-2008, 21:08

Mmm... Urban Cohort is insanely powerful in RTW, it's a wonder how CA turned a bunch of night watch and firemen into one of the deadlist force in the ancient world.

Emperor Mithdrates

08-29-2008, 21:17

Mmm... Urban Cohort is insanely powerful in RTW, it's a wonder how CA turned a bunch of night watch and firemen into one of the deadlist force in the ancient world.

In real life they werent totally powerful. many times they had to make truces wth the Parthians because theyre horse archers took thousands of them in every war. And their infantry wasnt totally pathetic either.

Jedi Bruno

08-29-2008, 21:18

Just pick up a nice number of dogs and let them do their job.:laugh4:

Emperor Mithdrates

08-29-2008, 21:34

Just pick up a nice number of dogs and let them do their job.:laugh4:

I thought only romans could have war dogs

Quintus.JC

08-29-2008, 21:37

I thought only romans could have war dogs

No, seveal Barbarian factions have them as well, though I doubt the famed Urban Cohorts could be beaten senseless by a bunch of overgrown puppies.

Emperor Mithdrates

08-29-2008, 21:49

damn straight. horse archers and cataphracts are needed. :turtle:

Jedi Bruno

08-29-2008, 23:53

No, seveal Barbarian factions have them as well, though I doubt the famed Urban Cohorts could be beaten senseless by a bunch of overgrown puppies.

That depends on their numbers and experience...
What kind of Urban Cohorts were are talking about? Fresh-ones or hard-coldblood veterans??

Quintus.JC

08-30-2008, 09:55

That depends on their numbers and experience...
What kind of Urban Cohorts were are talking about? Fresh-ones or hard-coldblood veterans??

I don't think it matters. Urban Cohorts has an attack of 14 and defence of 24 with excellent morale, meaning that they will stand their ground in dire situations unlike the average Legionaires. Warhounds have an attack of 14 and a defence of 3, despite their frightening near-by units trait I doubt they'll send the urban cohorts trembling before them.

Darkvicer98

08-30-2008, 11:22

I agree. Well since no-one has posted it. How about Urban Cohorts vs Urban Cohorts? There are 4 different Roman Factions, both Urban Cohorts have the same attack and defence.

Quintus.JC

08-30-2008, 11:25

I agree. Well since no-one has posted it. How about Urban Cohorts vs Urban Cohorts? There are 4 different Roman Factions, both Urban Cohorts have the same attack and defence.

That would be a bit pointless, If the experience are the same then I think the outcome will be determined by who got the first charge and who was able to throw more javelins before getting into hand to hand combat.

Darkvicer98

08-30-2008, 11:30

Yes, ok how about Head Hurlers? Throw their severed heads before charging in with a high attack but a low defence. The Urban Cohorts might win but its worth a try.

Quintus.JC

08-30-2008, 11:35

It is definitely worth a try, the morale damage will help their cause. but I don't have Rome:TW installed at the movement, so can't do any experiments. However...

Just to add- sacred band in phalanax won a few times, beresekers managed to kill arond 50% of urban unit, then they were anyhilated. Spartans are great, but only recruitable in two cities, so I don't consider them "proper" counter.

If the Berserkers fail to destroy urban cohort then really any human units capable of beating a unit of Urban is very few indeed.

Darkvicer98

08-30-2008, 11:50

Yes, but though Berserkers may be one of the best units, they are not the best unit in the game. As he said, the Sacred Band won a few times.

How about the Armoured Hoplites? They have a high defence, higher than the Urban Cohorts i think as i haven't played RTW in quite a while. But their attack is slightly lower than the Urban's, however they have the phalanx.

Head Hurlers have an attack of 16 and defence of 5 i think. Their severed heads do around 20 damage so the Urban's will take some casualties, however the javelin will kill many of the Head Hurlers. Depending on the size of the unit's.

Quintus.JC

08-30-2008, 12:01

Armoured Hoplite has 9 attack and 22 defence, they won't win against Urbans, though their phalanx will no doubt help. Head Hurlers is at best sacrificial unit against Urbans, their pila will butcher the half-naked head hurlers. Scared Band is very capable, but it's the phalanx that makes the difference. Just purely for stats, Urban cohort is pound for pound the best infantry in the game.

Abokasee

08-30-2008, 18:54

All this above advice is great, however, there is one unit you have all forgotten

Why not just use Ballistas? (I didnt say scorpions because there a roman unit)

Jedi Bruno

08-30-2008, 21:45

All this above advice is great, however, there is one unit you have all forgotten

Why not just use Ballistas? (I didnt say scorpions because there a roman unit)

If the urbans stayed quiet, dying peacefully, yes. But since Ballistas can't run, once they get on you... game over...

Quintus.JC

08-30-2008, 21:48

Jus to make this clear, are we talking about one on one, or in groups?

Abokasee

08-31-2008, 11:32

If the urbans stayed quiet, dying peacefully, yes. But since Ballistas can't run, once they get on you... game over...

Most generals arn't stupid enough to just leave the ballista on its own having some cavarly to swoop in when the Urbans are near will certainly ruin them.

El Diablo

09-01-2008, 00:38

I would say that if I had..

1 x General
8 x Spartans,
6 x Creeeeeetan Archers
2 x Sarmatian Cavelry
2 x Onager
1 x Ballista

Obviously all gold chevron

I would probably then be able to take a unit of Urban Cohorts.

But then again I am a very talented General. Skilled in the arts of war... :thumbsdown:

Carlos Matthews

09-01-2008, 01:18

What if you tempted the Urbans into a spear wall?

Omanes Alexandrapolites

09-01-2008, 09:01

What if you tempted the Urbans into a spear wall?They'd probably break through it - spears are not very good for countering infantry of any type. They have a penalty of (I think) -4 attack when countering infantry forces, although have (I think) something like a +8 attack when dealing with cavalry. It may be the other way around though, so don't quote me on that one. I don't think this applies to the phalanx formation though.

Overall, the best tactic usually is to outnumber and surround them with axemen or other units with armour piercing capacity.

~:)

Quintus.JC

09-01-2008, 09:06

What if you tempted the Urbans into a spear wall?

Spear Wall formation only exists in Barbarian invasion unfortunatly, Phalanx can break Urbans, but only the best units stand a chance even when in Phalanx. The obvious ones are the Spartans the other candidates being Sacred Band and Armoured Hoplites.

Abokasee

09-01-2008, 09:31

Spear Wall formation only exists in Barbarian invasion unfortunatly, Phalanx can break Urbans, but only the best units stand a chance even when in Phalanx. The obvious ones are the Spartans the other candidates being Sacred Band and Armoured Hoplites.

Don't forget about Silver and Bronze shields! (Although they may be less adequte for the task but they do have a large number of troops and longer spears)

Quintus.JC

09-01-2008, 09:43

Don't forget about Silver and Bronze shields! (Although they may be less adequte for the task but they do have a large number of troops and longer spears)

Still can't experiment but from my past experience even Royal Pikemen can't hold it's own against Praetorians and Urbans. Despite their numerial advantage they don't seems to be up to the task.

placenik

09-01-2008, 15:21

Trouble with phalanaxes is how game mechanic is set- when enemy is too close, they switch to secondary weapon and get butchered.

guineawolf

09-02-2008, 06:59

All this above advice is great, however, there is one unit you have all forgotten

Why not just use Ballistas? (I didnt say scorpions because there a roman unit)

how about using C4,M60 or rocket launcher?:laugh4:
just kidding....:yes:

placenik

09-02-2008, 08:49

how about using C4,M60 or rocket launcher?:laugh4:
just kidding....:yes:
Playing JA2 too?

Thundermace

09-03-2008, 07:25

There are many proper suggestions here, however one is missing - the Chosen axemen (or mix of Berserkers+ Ch. axes). I am sure it will work, I have done the experiment myself. However, I must admit on VHard Urbans are unbeatable, no doubt:knight:

McJohnny

09-05-2008, 20:02

Quintus.JC

09-05-2008, 21:22

https://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9346/123cx2.th.jpg (https://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=123cx2.jpg)

Not sure whether this is valid or not, because I added every possible upgrade to horse archers and none to Urban Cohort...

Probably not. 9 experience would turn any crappy medicore unit into a fine killing machine, not to mention it's weapon and armour upgrade plus the fact that it is a horse archer unit.

McJohnny

09-06-2008, 00:03

Probably not. 9 experience would turn any crappy medicore unit into a fine killing machine, not to mention it's weapon and armour upgrade plus the fact that it is a horse archer unit.

OK, I'll try it without some major upgrades then... :)

Not that I'll discover hot water, but oh well... :P

Hannibalbarc

09-13-2008, 23:06

The number one counter should be tactics, my tactic's always own them (unless online, then it's not always :D), then of course there is spartans, bullwarriors(in campaign only), other Urbans, sacred band infantry, catas totally own them, even in melee, ap attack plus super duper armor ftw, berserkers in berserk mode can kill them in 5 seconds, chosen axemen with warcry can just barely beat them, to sum it up, any good heavy phalanx(even poeni infantry) can take them out(yes, even in even numbers) so long as they don't get flanked, which is usually not a problem, I'm assuming your talking about sp, and also any heavy cavalry.
Get 10 companion cavalry, against a balanced Roman force of 6-7 urbans and 3-4 preat cav, and I guaranty you, if you know what your doing, you'll kick their bastard butts with out a problem, if it's only urbans, well pff, then its a joke, I can take out 10 units of urbans with 4 units of heavy cavalry easily.

EDIT: I always laugh when someone say nothing can penetrate a phalanx from the front except urbans, what a joke, if urbans could do it, so could praet inf, and late legionary cohorts, but the thing is they just can't, period. tested so many many times, I did a test, 10 poeni inf vs 11 urbans(11 so they could have one spare unit, just in case they tried to flank) I pwned their sry butts, no tactics, just a long line and march it up there to the urbans and sit down and watch.

Aemilius Paulus

09-18-2008, 01:52

Trouble with phalanaxes is how game mechanic is set- when enemy is too close, they switch to secondary weapon and get butchered.

You just have to press the "Backspace" key while having the phalanx selected and they will all switch back to spears. What's interesting is that I never had problems with Urban Cohorts. I would normally line up a Phalanx Pikemen, sometimes even two phalanxes in exact same space, with the spears overlapping and just sit down, relax and watch the Urbans get slowly decimated while occasionally pressing "Backspace" to make sure the phalangites are not switching back to their spears.