Who should succeed Perseus, Basileus of Makedonia? [Archive]

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

08-29-2008, 22:46

This is Perseus, the mighty Basileus of Makedonia.

https://img115.imageshack.us/img115/26/104perseusargeadesez3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Now he's 59 and it's time to decide which of his two sons should succeed him and lead the Makedonian Kingdom to new glories, as far as Alexandros and beyond!

Either Euphamios...

https://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7155/103euphamiosargeadeslm4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

... or Antiochos?

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/300/103antiochosargeadestj3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Euphamios is a bastard. His "mother" was 13 at his birth. I roleplay inappropiate ages of mothers as the children being offspring from the fathers' affairs with their Hetairai. I think that's historically feasable. Plus he is philhellen, as opposed to his father, who strictly follows the Makedonian ways and hates every effete Southron. But Euphamios is the older one, of course, and is elected as successor for more than 20 years now. He is the conqueror of Egypt and would be easily accepted by the Assembly of the Army. Also, Euphamios already has an adult son named Polyperchon which is an idiot.

Antiochos has a great name! And he is better at management. He is not a bastard which means that his mother is constantly telling Perseus to make her son the heir to the throne. He is also misellen like his father. He only has a daughter at the moment. He is very young and could govern the empire for four decades. He has fought one battle since the screenshot and suffered great casualties (blame me), but at least he lost the "very unsure troops" trait.

So I'd like to know whom you would choose for a task nothing short of recreating the greatest empire of all times!

Chaotix

08-29-2008, 23:08

Go for Antiochos, I'd say. He's got the Sharp/Charismatic/Vigorous and he's about 20 years younger, so I'd say that gives him vastly more potential than Euphamios. Plus, while Euphamios will die in 10 or so years and leave his idiot son on the throne, Antiochos will have a long time on the throne and probably get at least one good son.

Poulp'

08-29-2008, 23:21

Antiochios

he's younger, he's got time to improve himself and man up a little.
Also, you'll have more time to find and breed a suitable successor.

Foot

08-30-2008, 01:04

Euphamios. He has far more influence at court and would be well liked by the other noblemen.

Foot

Gaivs

08-30-2008, 03:37

From a real life perspective? Euphamios, as per what Foot said. From a game perspective, Antiochos for sure.

Reverend Joe

08-30-2008, 04:41

Euphamios, at first glance. But Perseus is also selfish, which means he might be resentful of Euphamios's presence at court and general disloyalty; this and his pragmatism might drive him to choose the better-able but lesser known Antiochos. If (hopefully when) you do choose Antiochos, you should have him work hard to outdo Euphamios (whom he will doubtless dislike and distrust) and prove himself to the Nobles.

Post some more Arche Makedonia info, by the way. How far have you gotten?

DeathEmperor

08-30-2008, 04:46

It gives me joy to know that Foot and I think alike when it comes to regarding succession :beam:

As he and Gaius said, from the perspective on how it would've turned out in real life: Euphamios. In support of Antiochos however, there are a few accounts of the reigning king choosing a younger more competent son to succeed him if he was superior to his elder brother. Ptolemy I Soter chose Ptolemy Mikros over the elder Ptolemy Keraunos. Antiochus I Soter executed his elder son Seleucus, after an attempted rebellion or some other seditious activity, and replaced him with the younger Antiochus II.

It's also believed by some that Antiochus III the Great had his eldest son, also named Antiochus, assassinated because he was becoming more popular with his subjects than himself but I personally don't believe that if he did order his son's death that it wasn't for such simple reason.

Lysimachos

08-30-2008, 07:14

Antiochus I Soter executed his elder son Seleucus, after an attempted rebellion or some other seditious activity, and replaced him with the younger Antiochus II.

I wouldn't call that to chose :laugh4:

It's also believed by some that Antiochus III the Great had his eldest son, also named Antiochus, assassinated because he was becoming more popular with his subjects than himself but I personally don't believe that if he did order his son's death that it wasn't for such simple reason.

Are you sure it is Antiochos III.? To my knowledge his eldest would be Seleukos IV. Philopator. The custom to name the firstborn Seleukos and the secondborn Antiochos would be still intact then.

DeathEmperor

08-30-2008, 08:36

I wouldn't call that to chose :laugh4:

Hehe I wouldn't either. Still if Euphamios were to hitch a rid on a fleet of petecontai(sp) and that fleet just happened to run into a fleet or two of eleutheroi ships...well accidents happen :laugh4:

And if such tragedy did take place then Perseus would have no choice, but to choose Antiochos :beam:

Are you sure it is Antiochos III.? To my knowledge his eldest would be Seleukos IV. Philopator. The custom to name the firstborn Seleukos and the secondborn Antiochos would be still intact then.

100% certain. Read about it E.R. Bevan's The House of Seleucus: Volume 2 countless times, and I think B. Bar Kochva mentioned it in his notes in his book The Seleucid Army. Here's a link to a site that I use every so often for quick summaries of the lives and accomplishments of Seleucid, Antigonid, and Lagid kings: http://www.livius.org/am-ao/antiochus/antiochus_iii.html

It certainly was the custom for the early Seleukid kings to name their sons after their fathers, but Seleukos II started the 'trend' where the eldest son was named after one's self. Seleukos II Kallinikos was initially succeeded by his eldest son Seleukos III Keraunos who had one of the shortest, if not the shortest, reign of any Seleukid king (though the later ones come pretty close) and Seleukos was then succeeded by his younger brother Antiochus III.

konny

08-30-2008, 12:26

Right now it would be Euphamios because the army would more likely follow him than his brother. The King doesn't really like either of them:

- Euphamios because of his lazyness and pessimism what would make a ruler that will most likely hide in his pallace instead of going out and conquer the known world.

- Antiochos because he is an effeminate and morose turncoat who might be more successfull in court politics but is not the kind of people the king likes around him.

The King prefers people who are tough, straight ahead, optimistic and know what they want, and don't have any problems using brute force to achieve their goals.

Hax

08-30-2008, 12:56

Still, Euphamios is a philhellene. This will certainly be looked upon the court with some caution.

Maion Maroneios

08-30-2008, 13:52

Well, he wouldn't. Being philhellen doesn't necessarily mean he would adopt southern-hellenic customs, which were never far from Makedonian ones. Hellenes (in general) might not have had any real sense of unity at that time, but they sure had too many things in common to reject there would have been frendly feelings between any hellenic people.

Anyway, I would go for Euphamios. Older, wiser and Loyal, as opposed to Antiochos. Then again, Antiochos has other plus points, like having completed the Agoge, as well as a very bright future ahaid of him. They both are Langorous, which isn't very good, but that doesn't say much.

Good luck with your Arche's future, I hope you will spread the dream of Hellenism to the furthest corners again :wink:
Maion

Lysimachos

08-30-2008, 14:52

100% certain. Read about it E.R. Bevan's The House of Seleucus: Volume 2 countless times, and I think B. Bar Kochva mentioned it in his notes in his book The Seleucid Army. Here's a link to a site that I use every so often for quick summaries of the lives and accomplishments of Seleucid, Antigonid, and Lagid kings: http://www.livius.org/am-ao/antiochus/antiochus_iii.html

It certainly was the custom for the early Seleukid kings to name their sons after their fathers, but Seleukos II started the 'trend' where the eldest son was named after one's self. Seleukos II Kallinikos was initially succeeded by his eldest son Seleukos III Keraunos who had one of the shortest, if not the shortest, reign of any Seleukid king (though the later ones come pretty close) and Seleukos was then succeeded by his younger brother Antiochus III.

Thanks, interesting site.

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

08-30-2008, 21:08

Ah, I said Polyperchon was an idiot, but well, he's quite OK indeed...

https://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2466/104polyperchonargeadesqi2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Right now it would be Euphamios because the army would more likely follow him than his brother. The King doesn't really like either of them:

- Euphamios because of his lazyness and pessimism what would make a ruler that will most likely hide in his pallace instead of going out and conquer the known world.

- Antiochos because he is an effeminate and morose turncoat who might be more successfull in court politics but is not the kind of people the king likes around him.

The King prefers people who are tough, straight ahead, optimistic and know what they want, and don't have any problems using brute force to achieve their goals.
Antiochos is vigorous and bloody. So he has quite a big chance to become a slaughterer like his dad.

Yeah, the army would likely follow Euphamios though he is philhellene and wildly extravagant. He hasn't seen his father and his court for over 20 years though. He conquered Egypt while Perseus (and Antiochos) was in Pella or conquering the Crimea.

There was a Greek rebellion which affected the whole south of Greece that I stirred up. Antiochos was in the Agoge at this time, and I didn't let Spart rebel naturally. The Makedonian governors of Greece fled all to Sparte, were they gathered to subdue the rebels. So Perseus could consider Antiochos loyal.

You might see that I'm seeking for arguments pro Antiochos...

Here is a map of the Arche Makedonia in 214BC, the year 104 of Alexandros IV.

https://img56.imageshack.us/img56/7276/ebdasmakedonischeimperiau1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Dark blue: Satrapy
Light blue: Semiautonomous Satrapy
White: Allied State

Reno Melitensis

08-30-2008, 21:45

I say go for Antiochos, his profile show that he can be a much better ruler than his brother. Superb administrator, Mathematic expert and completed Spartan Agoge are enough to make him your next Basileus.

Cheers

MarcusAureliusAntoninus

08-30-2008, 23:18

I'd probably choose Antiochos because of his name, but the other guy seems better...

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

08-31-2008, 02:35

Antiochos just scored a heroic victory at some Euphrat crossing. The game thanked me with a ctd. I cheated... and Perseus, in dear love to the good boy, made him his successor. Euphamios is putting up watchtowers in Lybia at the moment, so I guess until he gets to know the news, it'll be too late.

Edit: Polyperchon and Euphamios will be enemies of the king forever I guess, I will give them a nice governor charge, somewhere far away.

Lysimachos

08-31-2008, 07:44

Maion Maroneios

08-31-2008, 11:08

Nice progress you got there, Centurio! How did you manage to make these maps, by the way? I am in 248BC (as Makedonia) and have managed to unify Hellas, as well as capture Megale Hellas and almost all of Sikelia.

In the name of the true Basileus ton Basileon, I truthfully wish you spread Hellenism anew and put even Megas Alexandros' conquests to shame!
Maion

Celtic_Punk

08-31-2008, 14:06

Euphamios could always meet an unfortunate accident in battle though *looks around dubiously*

Antigonos Karchedonios

08-31-2008, 18:51

I would choose Antiochos, because he's young and he seems to be more willing to be a respectes ruler for all his people and not only the macedonians.
He might just do what the real Perseus did, defame the older brother and let his father kill him...;)

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

08-31-2008, 21:15

Thank you all for your interest!

Nice progress you got there, Centurio! How did you manage to make these maps, by the way? I am in 248BC (as Makedonia) and have managed to unify Hellas, as well as capture Megale Hellas and almost all of Sikelia.

In the name of the true Basileus ton Basileon, I truthfully wish you spread Hellenism anew and put even Megas Alexandros' conquests to shame!
Maion
I made the map just with Paint, and the EB 1.0 plain map. Yes, Hellenism will be spread, I swear... :whip:

||Lz3||

08-31-2008, 22:08

if Antiochos is to be the rightfull heir... I think Euphamios needs to die... be it accidentally... or not

Maion Maroneios

09-02-2008, 17:27

Thank you all for your interest!

I made the map just with Paint, and the EB 1.0 plain map. Yes, Hellenism will be spread, I swear... :whip:
I see, thank you for the info. Here, have a red balloon from me: :balloon:

Maion

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

09-02-2008, 22:15

I see, thank you for the info. Here, have a red balloon from me: :balloon:

Maion
You sound sarcastic. Are you disappointed? Thx for the balloon...

Hax

09-02-2008, 22:50

How can anyone sound someway over the internet?

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

09-03-2008, 02:38

Uff. How can anybody be the Sowiet premierminister or whatever, when the Sowietunion doesn't exist any more?

Lysimachos

09-03-2008, 06:59

How can anyone sound someway over the internet?

If you have a microphone and a voice chat program, certainly :yes:

Hax

09-03-2008, 15:14

Uff. How can anybody be the Sowiet premierminister or whatever, when the Sowietunion doesn't exist any more?

Yes, of course that's what they told you, Comrade Nixalsverdrich.

Maion Maroneios

09-03-2008, 16:04

You sound sarcastic. Are you disappointed? Thx for the balloon...
No, actually I didn't:sweatdrop: I'm sorry if I gave you such an impression, but the thing is, I have never seen that map before on the EB site (blanc page when clicking on it)! I downloaded it now, though:smash:

Maion

machinor

09-04-2008, 18:43

I'd say the king would surely choose his younger son Antiochos over a bastard. But he could not have done that before Antiochos' glorious victory because only then would the army accept him over the more experienced and influental Euphamios. But there would certainly be hard feelings. Sure, Euphamios is unselfish, but the agony of an unthankful father could make him bitter. And there is nothing more dangerous to a newly elected heir than a embittered half-brother with a lot of military fame and good connections to the army and the court. Beware the ides of september!
Do not put him in charge of Egypt, since that is a very rich region. Put him in command on the eastern border where he will be busy fighting nomads, Seleukids and rebellious Easterners. A man's mind constantly occupied with fighting won't have the time to scheme.

This is of course all just roleplay since there are no real rebellions in the RTW engine (unfortunately). Man, how cool would that be if there would be civil wars like in good ol' MTW. *nostalgia time*

Maion Maroneios

09-04-2008, 20:11

Well, you can roleplay civil wars and even stimulate them, but it requires some time. I, for one, will try and roleplay my own little civil war soon and will surely make an appropriate topic. One thing that bothers me though, are the internal names of the Makedonian FM's, as it seems that I cannot teleport any of them by just adding their names to the cheats. Also, when I want to add units, it always says that the unit is not regognised, even though I type in the exact unit name (for example, ''hellenistic infantry spartiates hoplitai''). I know this is not the appropriate topic, but maybe someone could clear this out for me? I would be immensely grateful to him.

Maion

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

09-04-2008, 20:46

I think it's "hellenistic infantry spartiateshoplitai" without the space between spartiates and hoplitai. Did you remember the hyphens? When you type in >?create_unit<, perhaps it gives you the exact syntax?

I'd say the king would surely choose his younger son Antiochos over a bastard. But he could not have done that before Antiochos' glorious victory because only then would the army accept him over the more experienced and influental Euphamios. But there would certainly be hard feelings. Sure, Euphamios is unselfish, but the agony of an unthankful father could make him bitter. And there is nothing more dangerous to a newly elected heir than a embittered half-brother with a lot of military fame and good connections to the army and the court. Beware the ides of september!
Do not put him in charge of Egypt, since that is a very rich region. Put him in command on the eastern border where he will be busy fighting nomads, Seleukids and rebellious Easterners. A man's mind constantly occupied with fighting won't have the time to scheme.
I really share your thoughts on this topic! Do you think I should charge him with the upcoming conquest of Italy? Or perhaps government of the Crimea, where I have to prepare for the Sarmatae who will try to reconquer it?

Maion Maroneios

09-04-2008, 21:09

Yeah, it's spartiateshoplitai. It was just an example, I always alt-tab to find their names, but I just don't seems to be able to add any unit. For example: ''create_unit Sparte hellenistic infantry spartiateshoplitai 4'' does nothing, it says unrecognised unit type or something...

Maion

Gaius marcus

09-04-2008, 21:48

No... while Euphamios would likely be enraged, he is too loyal to really try userping his brother once dad dies.... no i see that danger in Euphamios' son more likely.

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

09-05-2008, 01:05

It has happened!

https://img244.imageshack.us/img244/7783/107antiochosargeadesbasls7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

I think Antiochos is already on a distinguished road, really. He has grown.

Achievements in the regency of Perseus:

Before...
https://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3466/makedoniendieweltimjahrpi8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

... and after Perseus.
https://img293.imageshack.us/img293/424/makedoniendieweltimjahrml3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Now does that justify a "Megas" for Perseus? What do you think? Btw. Euphamios is now in Hibis and has gotten the "melancholic" trait.

If I want to rename Seleukeia after Perseus, what would it be called? Perseia? Persepolis is not really an option...

Yeah, it's spartiateshoplitai. It was just an example, I always alt-tab to find their names, but I just don't seems to be able to add any unit. For example: ''create_unit Sparte hellenistic infantry spartiateshoplitai 4'' does nothing, it says unrecognised unit type or something...

Maion
create_unit Sparte "hellenistic infantry spartiateshoplitai" 4,1,1,1

create_unit "Sparte" "hellenistic infantry spartiateshoplitai" 4,1,1,1

Haven't tried it myself but you should try these. Maybe it's Sparta because I remember that Ambrakia was Apollonia iirc, there might be something like two settlements having internal names, I don't know....

Lysimachos

09-05-2008, 07:15

I'm quite sure it is:

create_unit Sparte "hellenistic infantry spartiateshoplitai" 4 0 0 0

No , between the numbers, cities go without ", armies with ".
The first digit is number of units, the second experience, the third defensive upgrades, the last offensive upgrades.

Edit: After reading that about civil wars, I have to make some self-advertising, as I promise a tiny little civil war in my AAR, although it is about 15 to 20 chapters in the future :laugh4:

machinor

09-05-2008, 10:32

I really share your thoughts on this topic! Do you think I should charge him with the upcoming conquest of Italy? Or perhaps government of the Crimea, where I have to prepare for the Sarmatae who will try to reconquer it?
I'm not so sure, if charging him with new glorious conquests is the right thing. He should be getting the command in a defensive war like the one on the Crimea. New glorious conquest should be made by the new king so that he can further establish himself as a military leader and satisfy the few people still sceptic about his abilities. Plus the glory of a whole new spearconquered land like Italy befits only the king.