View Full Version : Gothic Knights have Crusader Helmets
Whats up with Gothic Knights?
They have Crusader era Great Helms where they should have Bevor and Sallet!!!
(Sallet is what Chiv Sergeants are wearing in the right click image)
Those helmets went out because with all the flat areas, they could be fairly easily cut open, and because better plate making meant better shapes were available.
as long as we'll have dedicated partons who actually get pissed of for details like that, I think we'll deserve the badge for serious gamers. Or freaks.
Well, if you're gonna do a game that is vaguely historical, you gotta get the armour fairly close to right...
I mean other units have Sallets, and the small icon appears to have them too...
making a point on sallets use is just vaguely historical?
if so, your middle age military equipment erudition goes further than mine and 99.9% of the population, which was my initial point. But that's what I like on this forum anyway (the mongol thread some time ago was particularly enjoyable), so don't think I'm complaining.
What, nobody else noticed this???
I don't know everything, so I tend to use rather vague language just incase I happen to be wrong... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
I would really like to see a proper gothic armour suit made...
Richard the Slayer
11-01-2002, 11:16
Quote Originally posted by arrrse:
Whats up with Gothic Knights?
They have Crusader era Great Helms where they should have Bevor and Sallet!!!
(Sallet is what Chiv Sergeants are wearing in the right click image)
Those helmets went out because with all the flat areas, they could be fairly easily cut open, and because better plate making meant better shapes were available.[/QUOTE]
I believe this is a sign of the apocolypse.
Papa Bear!
11-01-2002, 13:24
Indeed.
To be fair though, if I actually knew what a sallet helm was, and I saw them presented in other places in the game, but not where they belonged, (on the heads of the gothics), I'd probably be annoyed too. We all love our little details.
So you have my sympathies.
Rosacrux
11-01-2002, 13:35
Arrghh... wrong helms??? WTF???? Bloody CA, patch this right away!!! BUG, BUG!!!
Just kidding... I still think though you are indeed overreacting... I mean, take a look at the byzantine cavalry thing. Or the kataphractoi. They practically screwed them royally. But I don't complain, do I? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
What did they do to Kataphraktoi etc?
Will look for a picture of a Sallet...
Here's one, though profile is not exactly ideal.
Sallet (http://www.mackenziesmith.com/Our_Products/Plate_Armor/Helmets/Visored_Sallet/visored_sallet.html)
This one is a gothic sallet (though the image seems horizontally squished)
gothic sallet (http://www.mackenziesmith.com/Our_Products/Plate_Armor/Helmets/Gothic_Sallet/gothic_sallet.html)
This is a Bevor
Bevor (http://www.mackenziesmith.com/Our_Products/Plate_Armor/Gorgets/Bevor/bevor.html)
Here's a Crusader Great Helm of the variety Gothic Knights have
Great Helm (http://www.mackenziesmith.com/Our_Products/Plate_Armor/Helmets/Crusader_s_Great_Helm/crusader_s_great_helm.html)
[This message has been edited by arrrse (edited 11-01-2002).]
[This message has been edited by arrrse (edited 11-01-2002).]
[This message has been edited by arrrse (edited 11-01-2002).]
[This message has been edited by arrrse (edited 11-01-2002).]
This is what a Gothic Harness should look like.
http://www.longshank.co.uk/images/gothic%20plate.jpg
Rosacrux
11-01-2002, 14:39
AND ...the nitpicker-of-the-year award goes to... ARRRSE! (is that a pun or what?)
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Lovely image too. The kataphraktoi? Well, what they have as "Kataphraktoi" is practically the Klivanarioi, and there ain't such thing as a byzantine cavalry, only Kataphraktoi armed with bows.
And all details of their armours are wrong - not to mention the Byzantine Infantry which is partly fictional/partly screwed.
But I love it that way http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
I know squat about Byzantium other than a bit about Constantinople and that it started as an offshoot of the break up of the Roman Empire.
Shame they fiddled the units http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
But Gothic Armour should really look like Gothic Armour!
It's like, the most distinctive style.
Here's a very famous harness...
http://www.arador.com/gallery/15c-3.jpg
[This message has been edited by arrrse (edited 11-01-2002).]
Veiny Eyeball
11-01-2002, 16:30
Well it doesn't really bother me (although I am equally well informed about the various kinds of helmets popular with Knights).
I guess you could say that it is kind of silly how the in-game picture for Gothic Knights (in the build menu) shows them as wearing sallets (the same is true of late Royal Knights and Lancers I believe) but the actual sprite wears a Helm.
Of course a sallet is fairly difficult to draw compared to a great helm so there could be a practical reason for it.
But they have drawn them elsewhere...
ha! does this remind you of anyone?
http://www.christianfletcher.com/catalog/custom/blackgothic/blacksallet.jpg
Rosacrux
11-01-2002, 17:05
Hey! It's ol'cham Darth! Say hi to Darth, Dorothy! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
someone in the SW staff must've been a sucka for medieval history, I guess ...it wasn't you arrse, you are too young for it, right?
Well, lets see now, umm I was born in 1977, so no it wasn't me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
But I do believe that is where the inspiration for his helmet came from.
(his skull mask comes from later 'Maximillian' style parade helmets which often had showy shaped faces)
There are Sallets all over Star Wars.
The rebel soldiers on the Blockade Runner have them.
The Death Star laser guys have them too.
Bowzerdawg
11-02-2002, 09:41
I only know about WW2 history, specifically aviation, so I’m not an expert historian on Medieval history. But are gothic knights from Germany and did the Germans in late 19th and in WW1 got the design for their combat helmets from their medieval ancestors’ combat hardware? Jeez, were those things maneuverable and were they effective protection against sword slashes and arrows? I was reading a National Geographic issue about the Mongol warriors and they were lightly armored, only wearing leather paddings, a shield on their right arm, and holding a lance or spear with a bow and arrows on his mount. If my scanner was able to work with Windows XP (I have an Hewlett Packard Scanjet 3300C), I would be able to scan a picture and post it here. Anyhow, I read in the STW documents from the game files that they defeated the Poles and/ or GermanTuetonic knights wearing the same type of outfit in some battle in Eastern Europe. The Mongols were able to move around a lot better than the Europeans that they encounter in battle who were wearing the same kind of heavy “tank”outfit.
Hey, we're born in the same year!
[This message has been edited by Bowzerdawg (edited 11-02-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Bowzerdawg (edited 11-02-2002).]
Lord Krazy
11-02-2002, 09:44
If you want you could change
things a bit but if I tell ya
you'll be booted to the editing forum http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Where ppl know how to change these
things.If it annoys you that
much you should go there and complain
because nobodys going to help ya
here. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
LK
Quote Originally posted by Bowzerdawg:
The Mongols were able to move around a lot better than the Europeans that they encounter in battle who were wearing the same kind of heavy “tank”outfit.
[/QUOTE]
Hardly the case... these armours are from the 1400's and 1500's, not the 1200's.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Evidently Darths Helmet and face plate come from the Japanese Mempo mask and Kabuto helmet.
I have a book in front of me with pictures of the two right next to each other and the similarity is really incontrovertible.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.