View Full Version : seperate forums for sp and mp
this is just an idea, but it is so busy in here and i feel that most of the time it is hard for ppl to tell what subject a question is intended for MP or SP?
i know there was talk about a possible nOOb forum but maybe this would be a better idea? anyway just a thought, i'd appreciate it if tosa could reply or at least a mod to relay the meesage http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
thanks for listening - barry
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previously BarryNoDachi - KenchiBND
Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
chunkynut
10-10-2002, 20:16
Very good idea but i cant see it happening .... dont know y i cant !! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I have played online by my comp is a bit low spec for large battles (until i can up grade my 2 processers!!) so i am, at the mo, only interested in the SP side of things.
Im sure ppl who haven't played stw will also mostly (i think) interested in the SP side(because im sure it must be daunting).
Would be a division of knowledge tho, cause some MP players would stick in the MP forum and visa versa.
ravenking
10-10-2002, 20:22
I agree. I have played to mp, but I mostly stick to sp. I read this sometimes for tactics, but get easily confused as to whether he means mp or sp. People complain about unbalancing and I don't understand, I think the game is very well done, then I see they mean the mp game which I don't play much and have no experiance in.
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"You there, knight!" "Yes, sir?" "We just lost that battle. Why did you order your men to charge that unit of enemy sergeants?" "Uh, I was impetuous, sir" "'IMPETUOUS!? Impetuous!? Men! Kill him, I want his head!"
Sjakihata
10-10-2002, 21:11
YEA.. Superb idea mate !!!
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*bows* - Power to the Sultan!
Clan Seljuk
I think separate forums is a good idea.
olaf
Not only do we need seperate forums for single and multi, but we need seperate unit stats as well.
ToranagaSama
10-11-2002, 02:32
And a way we gooooo....
Isn't there a clan forum already?
I don't think we should have separate forums for sp and mp until CA creates separate unit stats, costs, and upgrade tables for sp and mp so we can each request different things without affecting the other part of the game.
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 10-10-2002).]
solypsist
10-11-2002, 03:13
it might be nice to have an MP forum, or maybe try to get the MP things moved to the Clans forum
I floated this very idea a couple years ago and it went nowhere. Few liked it back then. I agree that it is easy for a thread to get wrapped around the axle as people discuss an issue from MP and SP perspectives.
Whether or not we all live in one forum it is clear that SP and MP are VERY different games with very different fans having very different expectations.
MPers clamor for changes to make the game something akin to Chess: Total War regarding balance for competition. It is not enough to win a battle, someone else must lose. They want all units to be useful and balanced (if history be damned, so be it). Some of them also expect others to play online in a certain way and get pissed at those who don't comply with ORG vet conventions. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif We all know this is true and it's something I find really humorous. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
The SP campaign guys are wargamers looking for a good sim. They want accuracy, the more the better. They (and I among them) will go on and on about spearmen and swordsmen and cav charges and pike lengths and one vs two handed weapons and which units OUGHT to win based on the battle of Crecy (or whatever) and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (or our own pin heads!). Balance is a trivial concern. Is life balanced? Was history? Hell no! Why should the units be then? These threads are funny sometimes too. I must admit that this is the sort of discussion I'm most likely to land in myself.
I bet the devs have gotten more than one good laugh out of us. So we might as well all stew together in the same pot.
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COGITOERGOVINCO
The only important points I think would be to respect that people can have a different perspective from your own, and hopefully enable the devs to make the game equally enjoyable for both, but not by doing one mode of play a favor while damaging the other one.
[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-10-2002).]
AgentBif
10-11-2002, 03:56
I dislike the idea because so many discussions are relevant to both game types... In particular, discussions about use and effectiveness of diff unit types.
Fragmenting the boards will only end up dropping the exposure good threads get, thereby drying them up faster.
bif
I was with you Nelson...I'm always for the extra division. However sometimes it dilutes the discussion and instead of a growing post-count it actually reduces the forum activity. Personally I think this forum is currently strong enough to branch out, I mean - the whole first page on this forum has had extra posts added today - thats a pretty clear sign that we could do with some futher divisions...
will it happen? it means extra mods need to be drafted, and work needs to be done in shifting over current discussions, but if there are willing matyrs (people who will sell their sole to the Maltese devil for some tatty rags) then I don't see why not.
...but honestly, it IS sometimes fun to stumble into a MP discussion when you are thinking in SP mode...to hell with it...I'll throw the clear signs back in my own face...keep the forum!
[This message has been edited by Whitey (edited 10-10-2002).]
Forward Observer
10-11-2002, 05:14
Perhaps we could convert 3 of the smilies to either letters or symbols that would indicate if your topic, post, or reply was oriented more towards multi-,single, or both in general.
It would certainly save me the time it takes to always have to add a statement about which type of game I am referring to.
You could simply add the letters: MP, SP, or M/S. to the smilies menu.
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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
ToranagaSama
10-11-2002, 05:37
Quote Originally posted by AgentBif:
I dislike the idea because so many discussions are relevant to both game types... In particular, discussions about use and effectiveness of diff unit types.
Fragmenting the boards will only end up dropping the exposure good threads get, thereby drying them up faster.
bif[/QUOTE]
(Forgive the below is a bit disjointed, but gets the point across nonetheless.)
Yours has been the standard argument since STW and the Dojo. On the surface, it seems sensical; and if your primarily a Tactical MP and occaisonally play SP a single forum would work fine.
But, if your strickly a SPer or are primarily interested in SP then things are a bit different.
The issues of the separate communities are quite different and often competing. A perfect example to highlight the issue are the Archer units.
MPers contend that archers are not effective and some contend useless for MP.
SPers are in opposite, archers are VERY effective in SP, though tactical use must be adjusted in comparison to STW usage. There's little if anything that needs to be changed with them. From a historical viewpoint, Samuri archers were superior to medieval archers; and their bows superior as well, with the possible exception of Longbows, and the certain exeption of Mongol bows. So it would serve that STW archers would be somewhat more effective than MTW. MTW archers are VERY effective, though rightly so, not quite as effective as STW.
So, back to the issue, SPers need not discuss "balance" issues re Archers, BUT "tactical" issues.
The above was just the most prominent issue between the two camps, but there are others as well.
Generally, I personarlly believe, there are "personality" differences in the two camps which negatively effect the SP community. MPers are more, vocal, thrill (this isn't the write word) seeking, and a "little" less cerebral (about their gaming), of course, the exception are the Statisticians among them.
Many SPers a bit more forcused on the historical, though not as fully as some would think. Some may be seeking a "sim", but most just want "game" which makes they "feel" as if they were actual Damiyo or Feudel Lords. SPers are VERY focused on STRATEGY. Virtually ALL were attracted to TW because of it was a "intended" to be a STRATEGY game.
Herein lies the OVERALL difference btw. MPers and SPers. STRATEGY! The Campaign game is about Strategy. The TACTICAL MP game is about Tactics, NO STRATEGY INVOLVED!!! Tactical MP is NOT even a "Real-Time-Strategy" game. This is a reality.
So, obviously, the issues, concerns, wants and needs are VERY different btw. the two communities. Personally, I feel, we SPers are being short-changed on several levels, but that's another thread.
Lastly, and this is IMPORTANT, I believe, though I may be wrong, that SPers are more of the "Trial and Error" types. We like to simply play the game and try things out, see what works.
MPers are more the, "Rock, Paper, Scissor" types, who want to examine and present all the underlying statistics for the units/game, ad infinitum!! While this is QUITE interesting, actually knowing the Stats, for me and others I believe, distracts from the enjoyment of the game. It greatly lessens the "Immersion" factor.
The CMAA are 1/2/3 and the MAA are 1/3/1 threads just kill it! Interesting stuff, but NOT at all necessary to know to have fun; and is of primary interest to the MPers. Yes, SPers or others of the same thinking could ignore the threads, you say. Simple, but not realistic. Not always, but most often, one doesn't realize what the thread will contain until "click" and then its too late.
One last thing that sticks in my craw, if you would check the forum, I'm certain you'll find that MPer make more denegrating comments regarding the Campaign game than in the reverse. This is not only annoying, but just not good.
For example, the issue of C-MP, Tactical MPers, truly don't give a good damn; and are NONE too shy about expressing their opinions and attitudes. These comments, "Not another thread", "I don't care about it", "It's not gonna happen, so forget about it", etc. ARE MADE, by those whose focus is Tactical MP. This is not Fair, Right nor Polite.
So, please give us SPers our own forum, where we won't be shouted down, insulted or MARGINALIZED by a certain vocal bunch whose interest are quite narrow in contrast to a game of such breadth.
I was for separate forums from nearly the start w. STW then and am even more so for it now.
AgentBif, the situation is quite the contrary:
Issues that are paramount to SP/C-MP "...end up [being] dropp[ed]ing [and not receiving]the exposure good threads get, thereby drying them up faster."
"discussions about use and effectiveness of diff unit types."
Your presumption is that the "use and effectiveness" translates to both MP and SP equally.
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For instance, there SHOULD BE an ONGOING thread or threads, that discuss the issue of C-MP. The, Ifs, Hows, Whys, Whats, Whens, etc. What's wrong with that? NOTHING! This is a Forum afterall isn't it? But, each and everytime the subject is broached, certain folks, who have NO interest in C-MP, deem it necessary to Shout the Subject Down, despite the fact that there are MANY who wish to discuss this; and the continual evidence that new TWers are interested in this as well.
Lastly (I said that already didn't I), there s/b not only separate forums, BUT, indeed, SEPARATE Stat files, as well!!
There's NOTHING wrong with the Archers; and the Knights are NOT too slow!!!
CA, I've said this before, the problem, if you want to call it a problem, is that you've got to different games under the guise of a single game that attracts gamers of diverging interests.
TBS gamers are NOT RTS gamers; and in many cases TBS gamers disdain RTS games; AND to top it off, Tactical MP isn't even a RTS game at all. Its more akin to a FPS, so you've may have THREE diverging game types to deal with. That goes for the .org too!
Somebody tell me, How does a TBS gamer consign themselves to the MP aspect of TW?
Now, put all that in your jaws and chaw on it. If anything changes with the .org or CA, as a result of this thread, I'll eat my chaw!!!
[This message has been edited by ToranagaSama (edited 10-10-2002).]
solypsist
10-11-2002, 06:46
one thing an MP-only forum would do is prevent 50 simultaneous posts of The @#$@ Server is Down!!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif from popping up like mushrooms whenever people can't log on.
but then I looooove closing threads so very quickly and those are among my favorite posts to delete http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
ravenking
10-11-2002, 08:27
I agree with FO, even having an indication for us less outspoken SPers :P . It would be nice to know before you jump in head-first what you are getting yourself into.
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"You there, knight!" "Yes, sir?" "We just lost that battle. Why did you order your men to charge that unit of enemy sergeants?" "Uh, I was impetuous, sir" "'IMPETUOUS!? Impetuous!? Men! Kill him, I want his head!"
Quote Originally posted by AgentBif:
I dislike the idea because so many discussions are relevant to both game types... In particular, discussions about use and effectiveness of diff unit types.
Fragmenting the boards will only end up dropping the exposure good threads get, thereby drying them up faster.
bif[/QUOTE]
I agree.
Also, what's that - the Gamespy master server goes down?! OMG NO NEVER. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
That's just another weakness that is opened up by relying on Gamespy for your entire multiplayer experience. =\
well personally i think it is a great idea so many threads get tangled up because a Single Player Person disagrees with a Multi Person Player (what a tongue twister) so can we have a reaction from the great tosa himself? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
or soly could you have a word on the staff forum? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ppllleeeaaaaassssssseeeeeeeeeeee!
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previously BarryNoDachi - KenchiBND
Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
The Black Ship
10-12-2002, 20:58
Used to be that SPers used the .COM forum and MPers used the .ORG forum.
Tachikaze
10-12-2002, 22:46
So far, I have only played MP. I would like to be able to find the tactical threads amongst all the strategic ones. So, I vote for separate forums.
I think the SP stuff is great, but I bought MTW as an online wargame against a human opponent.
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http://members.cox.net/ramen/icon09.gif
Knowing the Tao saves you thousands of dollars in psychiatric bills and credit card debt.
[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 10-12-2002).]
vexatious
11-01-2002, 02:01
*bump*
Dionysus9
11-01-2002, 05:43
I bought MTW for the MP aspects, and I dont really play much SP.
I'm interested in MP tactics, but not so much interested in SP.
I'd really like a seperate MP forum.
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Bacchus
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In the end times, there will be rumors of a patch-- but none shall come. And there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth across the lands. And still no patch shall come. And the poor suckers will start eating their children out of frustrated desperation. And yet-- no patch shall come. Alas the end of days shall be dark and horrible.
Forward Obs... That was damn good idea!
Toranaga, I can only agree with you about the attitude and most other. But I believe we should not devide the forum. Forwards Obs idea would be enough.
I like the feeling of history in the making (yes I'm primarely SP) and I love to feel te units ahead, but I believe that even SPers have a lot of learn from stats. We will use useless units anyway, won't we http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif.
But certain units are simply too weak/strong/(insert own complaint here), and SPers can use such info for their own play.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Quote Originally posted by hrvojej:
The only important point I think would be to respect that people can have a different perspective from your own.......[/QUOTE]
However, I think I had enough.........
[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 11-01-2002).]
HopAlongBunny
11-01-2002, 15:15
I don't suppose it really matters.
I play SP, but I find useful tips here from both camps.
The suggestion: to state whether a question or observation concerns SP or MP; is a good one http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I like separate forums, easier for me to find things. I bought MTW just for MP 1st and when I get bored I will play SP.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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*bump*
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previously BarryNoDachi - KenchiBND
Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
Important issue should be kept up..up..up.@ the top http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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