Formations

[Celtic_Punk]

Fielding a mainly Hellenic force I tend to go for a Phalangite centre, with its flanks held by hoplites, and around them i prefer to have swords. The best I've found have been Galatians or Gauls(the very best swordsmen I've used were Goillic nobles though). My ancient Cousins make a good show of themselves in battle.

I tend to have my flank guards held back about 20 feet and 10 feet to the side. 100 feet behind them and 20 feet to the side i will have my cavalry wings. Inside the V shape this creates are my missiles, Javelins the closest to the line, with archers behind and slingers infront of the phalanx. Heavy Peltasts stay behind with other skirmishers close to the flanks and will form up with the Galatian mercs to flank. I never really use Artillery, but if i do I will have a cavalry unit held back behind the arty piece to guard it, or use as a last resort if the enemy gets behind the phalanx somehow and threatens my soft belly. My general (being a hoplite unit) is either a flanker if other troops are available to hold the line, or on the line himself.

with Celts (yes i know this is not historically accurate) i put my men in the roman checkerboard formation. works exceptionally well with mobile troops.

what sort of formations do you guys prefer?

[Ezephkiel]

Im playing KH, but don't tend to use phalangites. Instead i have a main battle line usually containing copious amounts of thorakitai and hoplites (keltoi,epliktoi etc), Depending where the army is i'll then have light hoplites/peltast/theorophorouoeioie or some other flanking type regional on the flanks, set back a bit. I usually place my missle units behind my line, but i don't tend to use alot of them, then cavalry furthur away on the flank. Sometimes simple works best I find.

I prefer the battles with irregular ground though, forcing you to develope some strange formations, makes it more intereting.

[Celtic_Punk]

you actually like irregular ground? i cannot stand it! i I'm generally good at creating irregular formations to adapt, but the AI is too stupid to make logical manoeuvres that they end up making some crazy illogical way of closing the gap(like marching inside eachother's formation, or with their phalanx guarding the flank!), rendering my ingenious formation useless or dangerous. reforming causes further casualties from either their archers or skirmishers. im not usually that bad. but when there's fucking trees in the way im done for!

of course when playing as Casse i have no problem with trees... its just a nuisance that i cannot see the battle. playing as an "uncivilized" faction has its ups certainly.

Ezephkiel, i suggest you try this out, hire one mercenary phalangite, and put them in the centre of your battle line. you now have a rock hard core to your line, and the AI will try to avoid it like the plague, giving you the ability to wrap around and destroy their soft belly troops and hammer the rear of their infantry line. It also gives you the ability to better combat Phalangites without as many casualties. The computer will send his phalanx against yours 90% of the time, so the rest of your army can focus on troops that have no chance against them instead of a unit that should be able to outright destroy them.

Kev,

[Maion Maroneios]

I used to make use of Misthophoroi Phalangitai when I payed with the Koinon Hellenon. My tactics where more or less the same as yours, meaning I used 4-6 as a solid battle line. The only drawback is that you can't replenish your numbers easily, as they are mercenaries. At that time the Koinon Phalangitai wheren't even included, so I was stuck with those guys. Not that they are bad, on the contrary they are excellent line-holders.

Another thing I greatly enjoyed playing as the Koinon, is that you could experiment with many types of armies. For example, I even created a pseudolegion, consisted of Thorakitai, Thureophoroi and some other troops. Yes, those where good times indeed *nostalgia*

Maion

[satalexton]

I go for a classic makedonike formation, 7 units of phalangites (5 if ur facing romans) 1 unit of hyaspists on the right, 2 (3 if against romans) allied heavy inf on the right flank, 2/3 thureophoroi(or sth similar) on the left flank, 2 units of psiloi (toxotai kretikoi or spendonetai) behind the left flank, 2 elite heavies (peltastai mekedonikoi + allies) on the centre right. For cavalry i use thrakioi prodromoi + hippies thessalikoi on the left, general + lonchophoroi hippeis/hetairoi for the right depending on the situation. I tend to have a full stack of replacements/reinforcements/baggage train to replaces losses or change troop composition depending on the type of enemy i face.

[Ezephkiel]

you actually like irregular ground? i cannot stand it! i I'm generally good at creating irregular formations to adapt, but the AI is too stupid to make logical manoeuvres that they end up making some crazy illogical way of closing the gap(like marching inside eachother's formation, or with their phalanx guarding the flank!), rendering my ingenious formation useless or dangerous. reforming causes further casualties from either their archers or skirmishers. im not usually that bad. but when there's fucking trees in the way im done for!

of course when playing as Casse i have no problem with trees... its just a nuisance that i cannot see the battle. playing as an "uncivilized" faction has its ups certainly.

Ezephkiel, i suggest you try this out, hire one mercenary phalangite, and put them in the centre of your battle line. you now have a rock hard core to your line, and the AI will try to avoid it like the plague, giving you the ability to wrap around and destroy their soft belly troops and hammer the rear of their infantry line. It also gives you the ability to better combat Phalangites without as many casualties. The computer will send his phalanx against yours 90% of the time, so the rest of your army can focus on troops that have no chance against them instead of a unit that should be able to outright destroy them.

Kev,

Usually i've had bad experiences with phalangties, they just tend to lark about and not actually get down to some hardcore action.

I've got one army with 5 in, which i use on the left of my line. But like you say the AI is terrible really, even my long nicely formed battle lines they attack all wrong, at an angle or just one flank. Usually i try and make my armies smaller, which is why i like hoplites aswell because of their tight formations. Then they smack into the front of your army and you can wrap around the flanks.

I prefer the dodgy ground as it makes it a little more challenging and i can use small hills and hold them with a few units, its mostly down to the AI again, not being able to use big armies very well.

[Celtic_Punk]

take guard mode off when surrounded or fighting two sides or another phalangite.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah, especially another phalangite unit. Many players tend to forget that turning off guard mode makes hem very impassive against other infantry. So when attacked by another phalangite unit, they get ripped to pieces and wonder what they did wrong!

Maion

[satalexton]

you don't really have to turn off guard off unless you're fighting another phalanx line...Against the individual one or two units of phalangitai it's better to keep guard mode on so to make sure your line does not break, you'll actually lose less men overall. Besides, individual units of phalangitai have the tendancy to turn on it's sides and end up getting poked to death by your men D=

Ahh yes, another way to use your phalangitai, but i doubt it's historical...is the pike push. Have the unit in a neat square, turn off guard mode, and tell it to MOVE beyond the part of the enemy line you want to break through. Keep it's flanks secure (with hoplites or lines of phanangitai) and a unit or 2 of heavy swordsmen (peltastai makedonikoi, tintanotai...or better, thraikioi rhomphiaphoroi) behind your pike block. You can cleave a line into 2 and your swordsmen to wreak havoc, works best when you notice that the enemy line is longer than yours after the battle begins (just tell your middle pike unit to form the square, and pull your swordsmen over from the right). I once even manage to snuck my general through the resulting gap and nailed their general with hammer and anvil.

Who says phalanx armies are boring?

[Celtic_Punk]

nice strategy! I think ill try that next time i get the chance! you know what swordsmen would be perfect for the job? Samnites! they kick ass they are like hoplites with swords... or massalian hoplites since they are armed with good old Celt longswords

[Ezephkiel]

Ye i've been using the massilians in my campaign, although (i think im using version 1.0) they don't use their swords, when they're idle they have them on show, but even using alternative attack and normal attack they stick to their spears, oh well. Also the keltoi hoplitai are the bomb.

In my KH campaign at the mo, i have a rogue mercenary nomad general deep in baktrian territory (they have all of india and the east up to asia minor). Just recruited shit loads of persian archers and archer spearmen and have some horse archers aswell. Talk about blocking out the sun with arrows. Especially on flaming arrow mode it looks terrifying. Makes me want to play as a more eastern faction now, but ill stick out this campaign, been in it too long!

[Celtic_Punk]

the the farthest east i am is Antioch. I took that in a crazy amphibious assault. fought to capture the port, then spearheaded to the city, scaled the walls and destroyed its inhabitants. then ferried 2000 athenians (in the militia skirmisher format) to antioch and started their life there.

city fighting i find is much more interesting than open fighting, i love em both but city fighting requires a certain... panache. if you dont have you will take heavy casualties scaling the walls. and further more on the walls and in the streets.

forget the ram if they have stone walls or greater. itll just get set alight by the towers. sapping and seige towers are the best way to get in. send elephants(if you got em) through the breach in the walls. or any type of assault troop. hoplites take alot of casualties for some reason trying to get through the breach.

[Ezephkiel]

Ye i've had some nasty seiges. Used the artillery to some good effect in italy vs the romani. After taking out some walls and towers you can turn it on the defenders.

Always found the lack of swordsmen a problem, although peltasts can hold their own. My hoplites always get shafted on the walls, but tight formations in the street is where they come into their own.

I only tend to fight the sieges that have a big garrison though, can't be bothered to chase a few units around a huge city otherwise.

[satalexton]

@ celtic punk:

Be careful when u decide to pike push another phalanx line though, just like real life, push of pike is a very brutal matter that results in heavy casaulties for the losing side...(the EB team gets a cookie for the level of realism) You need to use the right unit as the pusher (preferably a nicely cheved unit of higher quality than the target...tho a silver cheved pantodapoi phalanx is surprisingly effective....AP axe ftw)...

Flank them from the middle where it's least expected!! xD

[Celtic_Punk]

lmao @ middle flank

[satalexton]

well technically u are =/ since the AI of most factions tends to put their units in one massive line...u effectivly cleaved their line into 2...its a matter of which side u want to fold up first '-'a

[Celtic_Punk]

very true sax. :duel: ONWARD!

[Immanuel]

On the subject of phalangites: I notice that THE single greatest influence on a phalangite vs. phalangite fight is high ground. Whoever is even *slightly* elevated on a hill when the pikes cross simply butchers his enemy, often without a single loss. Is this, um, normal? It actually annoys the heck out of me, this mechanic forces me to spend a lot of time scrambling around hillsides trying to get above a defensive enemy.

[Celtic_Punk]

I try to take the high-ground, but i will not let that get in the way of engaging, you can tire your army out scrambling around like that. sometimes its best to just engage and use your hoplites to flank, and reinforce with your medium cavalry.

what i find is a downhill cavalry charge can and will be brutal, especially if you're hitting their rear. ive decimated a 242 strong unit of epirot elite phalangites just by hammering them with a half strength unit of hippes.

[ludwag]

I use this formation when fighting a regular helenic or barbaric army with missile units, cavalry and infantry when they are larger than mine. This formation is the one i use when i have merchenary army. I have just made it with the infantry in the picture becouse it varies in how much archers or cavalry i have. I use this formation so that the enemy will attack me regardless of who started the battle.

I place them like a v, so that they will attack me the place they think is my weak point, right in the front. I also strech the front phalanx so that the enemy think it is weak and a good place to attack, but that cant break the phalanx becouse i have hoplites right behind it to charge once the enemy attack. The phalgagnite also take their missile attack before they charge and i often have to buy a new merchandary phalanx after every battle, but i suffer very low casulaities in the other units.

When they try to flank me, usually with cavalry my skirmisher and light infantry take them from the sides with javelins and when / if they arrive at my flank i have spear units to take them down easily.

When the phalagnite and hopliten in the front are fighting hard, my light infantry easily run out ov the v formation and throw their javelins and charge them from the sides.

then my cavalry (if i have) go after their missile units, and my hoplites from the back can go after their general. I can be very flexible.

EDIT: changed the picture: added misslie units and cavalry, and making the formation a little less V-like, but the keyword is using tha light infantry to run and reform ofthen. not being skirmish. but the missile cavalry are skrimishing to attarck them to my flank so the ligth infantry can throw javelin at them.

[Maion Maroneios]

Interesting formation, though it seems something of a ''noob box'', if you ask me. I hardly think you can use it offensively, plus enemy missile troops can decimate the ones that have their backs exposed (at the sides of the formation).

Maion

[ludwag]

i see now that it can look like a noob box. i never use that. i have never tried, exept in BI but that was with only a few units. i think it ruin the feeling that there is very much battle and historical.

the enemy archers allways shoot at the front units. becouse they are very much in the front.

I sometimes use it like this:
___
/ |

[Cbvani]

Could someone define "noob box" for me, please?

[ludwag]

Could someone define "noob box" for me, please?

i found a picture somewhere else in the forum, that i think can define the word. maybe both of them. I just had so save it.

https://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3319/formationsg7.jpg

[Cbvani]

i found a picture somewhere else in the forum, that i think can define the word. maybe both of them. I just had so save it.

https://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3319/formationsg7.jpg

Oh one of them. Good, just wanted to be sure I wasn't using a technique considered noobish.... when I form a box, all the spears are pointing inwards, because I have surrounded the other and am about to CRUSH HIM.

[ludwag]

aaah, yeah. that kind of box. that is not a noob box, but a killer box.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah, killer box. As for the noob one, it is generally used to describe that formation, due to fact that the player using it doesn't do anything except waiting for the enemy to come. That's why that formation is mostly linked with ''noob'' players. No offence meant here, though.

Maion