View Full Version : The AI isnt stupid, humans are!
The problem with the quality of the AI play is not with the AI, but with us, the players. How many people I wonder have had to resort to reloading the game because a battle went poorly or a rebellion caught them offguard? Using the reload option for just a couple of critical battles is an easy player cheat. How would we like it, if we saw the AI reloading a game because the outcome wasn't what it wanted?
Play this game in the iron man mode, without any reloads. You will be amazed at your own stupidity at times and the flashes of brillance the AI shows in some battles.
Each to their own, but I like to play it with mistakes and victories. If you play with the mistakes, it makes it more interesting. You will get bored otherwise. Nothing more satisfying than retaking that lost territory and killing that enemy general that gave you a hiding last time!
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Don't be in a rush to die!!
Yes, I fully agree with you Turbo. I never reload my games and although my first Byzantine Campaign was easy enough (well it was ment to be easy at the early game) my second Germany/High/Normal is not like that. Afte many 100 or so years I have only conquered the 2 rebel provinces in the north (Prussia and the other I don't remember), Aquitanne and Normandy.
I am forced to be allied with the English,the French and the Aragonese in order to hold the Almohad Horde from Ibiric Penissula. And as far as I am concerned the Alliance is working perfectly. Each member supports the other in many battles.I have fought many times side to side with English longbowmen and French Knights (Another point for the diplomacy aspect wich is critizised as well).
t1master
10-30-2002, 12:29
i've lost some bonehead battles and done some really dumb things on the strat. map. but by not reloading have had a wonderful gaming experience. just play through your mistakes and fumbles, it makes the game that much more fun
martin4444
10-30-2002, 12:49
Quote Originally posted by Turbo:
The problem with the quality of the AI play is not with the AI, but with us, the players. How many people I wonder have had to resort to reloading the game because a battle went poorly or a rebellion caught them offguard? Using the reload option for just a couple of critical battles is an easy player cheat. How would we like it, if we saw the AI reloading a game because the outcome wasn't what it wanted?
Play this game in the iron man mode, without any reloads. You will be amazed at your own stupidity at times and the flashes of brillance the AI shows in some battles.
[/QUOTE]
Never reloaded anything in my life and the AI is still dumb http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Originally posted by martin4444:
Never reloaded anything in my life and the AI is still dumb http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]
same here
actually I am delighted when I loose, it means I'm going to have some fun punishing the villains. But it very rarely happens, and I play with most custom hardman rules in expert (except the 'only peasant rule' which I find boring)
well a short story on why rebellions rock my world...
i was struggling mid game to get any revenues, and couldnt raise an army for crap, so what happens, a rebellion, i quench it in all but 5 proviences, but the i bribe the enemy armies for dirt cheap, no to mention the 50k florins i got just from confiscated lands.... funny thing is now i dont have any money probs after that
Long Live Rebellions!!!
RabidMonkey
10-30-2002, 16:36
Hey maroule what ironman rules do you use as i would like to make some 'official' ironman rules for MTW.
Lord of the Isles
10-30-2002, 16:44
While we are waiting for maroule to reply, I'll let you into the secret of my Ironman rules.
I save regularly since I occasionally suffer from the corrupt savegame under XP problem that I hope will be fixed by the patch. But I only reload when forced to abandon a battle because my girlfriend has threatened to "smash the damn thing up if I don't leave that &^*#%* game alone for one night!".
Maybe "Ironman" isn't appropriate under those circumstances. "Wet tissue man" perhaps?
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif
[This message has been edited by Lord of the Isles (edited 10-30-2002).]
sorry for the delay, trying to justify my salary....
my ironman rules :
- expert, GA, late (less time to build up)
- limit your expansion to your 'natural sphere of influence' only (no byzantium in norway or danish in algeria)
- no strategic agent (spy notably) in offensive role (only for defense in home provinces).
- use a maximum number of faction specific units (ie as english, take only billman and no other late spears, etc.)
- don't attack factions of same religion
- obey the pope if catholic
- don't kill your weak kings/princes
- roleplay each faction as much as you can (as spaniards attack only with crusades and use inquisitors on your own troops, as italian rely mainly on trade and mercs, etc.)
ideally
- never autoresolve siege (but I'm weak, I don't observe this one)
these are the ones I use, and I find they balance the game. My last 2 campaigns with these have been the most enjoyable. I think in the next one (Poland) I'll impose myself not to sea trade at all.
maroule... you are forgetting one...
Not using Pause in battle. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I use it, but I don't complain about the AI either. I know it is not great, but I use the Pause.... I think that evens the score a good bit (but ok it still doesn't do too great).
I remember my most fun period yet.
It was early in an HRE Early campaign on Hard. I was at war with France, kept fighting over Lorraine. Then suddenly Denmark launched an attack of revenge into Saxony (I had attacked them in the third year and failed), France made yet another attack into Lorraine and finally Italy attacked Tyrolia.
In every single battle I lost horribly... Especially the fight against Olaf of Denmark was a onesided fight eventhough I had spearmen guarding a single bridge.
I was on the brink of reloading my latest save, but I fought it off in ten years. Making several attacks that failed (especially against the Danes, they proved themselves in that campaign) before I finally forced both the Italians and Danes into a treaty of peace, and defeated the French one last time (killing the last prince and king Philippe died that year).
Never had I have so much fun in a campaign, I was pressed to the limit, and then some. I had the feeling the Polish and Hungarians would join in on the great feast of the HRE cake. They stayed out long enough for me to win, and then they attacked and got killed.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
spiffy_scimitar
10-31-2002, 00:27
There is one situation that I will reload a game in:
Quite often I will have several trading partners where we have been at peace for years, share borders etc. Then, out of the blue, he will sink one of my ships, and then I have no choice but to be at war with him. And yet, several years after sinking my ship, he'll take no aggressive action. This has happened several times.
I'd much rather pretend it was some overealous sea pirate captain and ignore the incident to keep my trading profits stable despite the act of war. Alas, tha game doesnt give me the option to "ignore" this kind of thing. So I just quick-reload, swap ships in the area and no war is declared.
I mean, if a faction wants to backstab an ally, to get maximum effect, you don't do it by sinking one measly ship. If that was the case, the Japanese would've sunk a supply tanker in mid-ocean instead of bombing Pearl Harbour.
This is the only time I reload.
Which also brings me to the issue, I'd like to be able to decide if I want to declare war or not. Say the AI invades a useless province, I want the option to say, hell with it, take it, just don't do it again...
[This message has been edited by spiffy_scimitar (edited 10-30-2002).]
ShaiHulud
10-31-2002, 00:32
I find saving game to be vital. I regularly crash in the midst of a battle (well, maybe one time in 8) and would hate having to recover lost years in which I no longer recall what the hell was happening.
On the other hand, I fought a battle last nite in which I killed their general, was busily routing their forces from the map, when MY general was thorougly smashed by a damned catapult! LOL I wouldn't re-load to save him, despite his value... it was too priceless an event to lose!
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O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....
Galestrum
10-31-2002, 01:06
speak for yourself...i never reload and always play expert and the AI is always retarded
i have had to mod the hell outta the game to even make it remotely fun/historical/challenging
even after giving all faction several well developed provinces, they still decide to churn out militia/spearmen/peasants in favor of better units *sigh*
PugPenguin
10-31-2002, 06:21
Quote Alrowan wrote:
... but the i bribe the enemy armies for dirt cheap, no to mention the 50k florins i got just from confiscated lands.... funny thing is now i dont have any money probs after that
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50k florins just like that??? Wow, I think I should try bribing them more often.
Quote Originally posted by maroule:
sorry for the delay, trying to justify my salary....
my ironman rules :
- expert, GA, late (less time to build up)
- limit your expansion to your 'natural sphere of influence' only (no byzantium in norway or danish in algeria)
- no strategic agent (spy notably) in offensive role (only for defense in home provinces).
- use a maximum number of faction specific units (ie as english, take only billman and no other late spears, etc.)
- don't attack factions of same religion
- obey the pope if catholic
- don't kill your weak kings/princes
- roleplay each faction as much as you can (as spaniards attack only with crusades and use inquisitors on your own troops, as italian rely mainly on trade and mercs, etc.)
ideally
- never autoresolve siege (but I'm weak, I don't observe this one)
these are the ones I use, and I find they balance the game. My last 2 campaigns with these have been the most enjoyable. I think in the next one (Poland) I'll impose myself not to sea trade at all. [/QUOTE]
I play on historical lines, keeping at least half of my army as lowgrade infantry. Half of the low grade units are peasants, the rest evenly split between urban militia and spearman (crusades get my best units and follow a direct course to Jerusalem). I dont use agents (daughters are used as spies and to set alliances). The King or Royal heirs command the largest armies and I use them preferentially over more qualified 'commoners'. I will only use christian mercenaries. When fighting battles, my defending position is always the default and I dont substitute units. My goals in the game are Rome/Papal states, Constantinople, Jerusalem and the elimination of the Muslim and Orthodox factions. No naval invasions either.
Now, it is easy to beat the game by using pillaging tactics, agents, making uberpowerful (and non-historical) armies, naval invasions, and optimizing leadership. Using royals as leaders and 1/2 of your army that is low grade makes the game really tough. The AI gives me a good run for my money.
Quote Originally posted by Galestrum:
speak for yourself...i never reload and always play expert and the AI is always retarded
i have had to mod the hell outta the game to even make it remotely fun/historical/challenging
even after giving all faction several well developed provinces, they still decide to churn out militia/spearmen/peasants in favor of better units *sigh*[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you are cranking out uberpowerful armies of elite units. Try limiting half of your army slots to low grade units half of which are peasants, the rest spearman and urban militia. This is more historical and it evens up things. Another feature to check out is the autotrain, autotax, auto build, and auto rank giving feature. I also use Royals wherever possible as leaders for large armies. It was very difficult to expand and hold territory, and I experienced meltaway when facing the Golden Horde.
RabidMonkey
10-31-2002, 10:34
Great idea using royals to lead the armies even if they are hopeless generals, theres no way the king would have allowed some urban militia to be leading his armies!
Its a pity there arnt some in built iron man rules that force you into doing some of this stuff as i dont have enough self control to play like that but i would like much more of a challange playing the SP campaign.
Ive said this before already but i think it would be fun to write up some specific ironman rules for each faction. Especially if someone has already tried something out and found that it is actually posible to still pass the game with their rules.
Quote Originally posted by RabidMonkey:
Great idea using royals to lead the armies even if they are hopeless generals, theres no way the king would have allowed some urban militia to be leading his armies!
.[/QUOTE]
It is a good idea, logical and in the spirit of iron man rule.
Yet I love to play with super generals, non royals, that I sometimes bribe to join me (william wallays from scotland is a favorite, but I never managed to bribe el cid), and that I always nuture carefully throughout the game.
By the way, a lot of great generals were not royals, like du Guesclin in France, and obviously Joan of Ark.
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
maroule... you are forgetting one...
Not using Pause in battle. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I use it, but I don't complain about the AI either. I know it is not great, but I use the Pause.... I think that evens the score a good bit (but ok it still doesn't do too great).[/QUOTE]
yep, I'm not in favour of this one either, because I don't have much time (girlfriend on the verge of a nervous breakdown), and that I play battles with accelerated time (and time limit). So it's normally acc100% then pause then acc, etc. On a defensive battle, I hardly need to move normally (arbalesters make the work except for the final rush). On offensive one, it takes more time. Overall I hardly take more than 5-6 minutes per battle (again I use time limit) and only accelerate + pause can allow that.
How many times have you quited a campaign because it would be unhopefull to beat the game?
My Ironman rules...
1. Do not pause.
2. Do not load after a bad year.
3. Role play your faction.
4. Play in glorius achievements.
5. Do not kill heirs or kings with bad V&Vs.
6. Role play your King.
7. All army generals and province rulers are of royal blood or aristocrat units (Knights and cavalry in general).
***If no royal unit is present then use a general with stats simiral to the king. eg. if the king has high pious then a general with a good one and if your ruler is with many little sculls then a general who has high dread rating.***
Well maroule...
I like the idea of not using the pause, but I don't give up on it though.
I can see why you need to do it. But why not just have it run at 200% when the you are advancing or the enemy is? I find it less fun not to be able to see the actual fighting, but rather dead men where there were a standing formation.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
its hard to lose to the comp, they always have too many peasants/urban militia or it sends the general into stupid situations.
i cant tell you how many times i would just sit there and focus fire my arbs on him and AI general would sit there and eat bolts till he routed/died. kill the general and all you gotta do is camp the rally spot and wait for the peasants to roll in. even if its 800 vs 3000 it wouldnt matter, once you kill stupid AI general its all over.
this is on expert, i hope they fix this stuff soon. is it that hard to make an AI general not run out in front of my arbs and sit there, or trickle troops in 1 and 2 at a time... while the rest sit there and and watch their buddies get tore up.
the only real challenge i had was with danes trying to take norway (i think) with mostly just princes and a couple vikings to the enemies 8 vikings. one of the few times it kept general safe...coming out of woods with another viking unit, while all my units were engaged and i lost.
rebellions are a pain just due to the fact rebels usually outnumber your garrison... but sometimes i wonder what the rebels were thinking..bringing 16 ballista to the party
Galestrum
11-04-2002, 07:15
ummmm i play byzantine and all they have are wimp units/low tech
1/3 spears 1/3 trebs and 1/3 byz inf is hardly an uber army, and my emporer always leads =)
id also debate you on whether or not those good armies are historical or not
but to each his own
fact is this games AI is utterly pathetic and one should NOT have to make up "rules" in order to have an enjoyable and challenging game
Galestrum
11-04-2002, 07:22
that being said I DO actually already do about every single thing that ppl have said for "their" ironman rules
even doing all this the game is not very challenging
MTW may be better than STW when directly compared, but i enjoyed STW alot more than i have MTW
MTW is a clone of STW on a larger scale with more useless stuff to do
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