View Full Version : Effectiveness of Foot Knights
Richard the Slayer
10-31-2002, 09:02
The earlier post on "how you build foot knights" encouraged me to ask a simple question - whats the point of dismounting your knights in the first place. Were not talking about actually buying foot knights, were talking about dismounting them. Why do it? From the stats I noticed foot knights have a +1 advantage over mounted knights in defense, but Mounted knights get many benefits in melee over foot knights. Overall the +1 in defense doesnt seem worth it to dismount knights. Historically (yea I know I will bore you all with another of my historically blah blah threads)foot knights have significant advantages over mounted knights in DEFENSE. maybe I'm overlooking something but foot knights dont seem to have a real significant advantage in defense. How many people really dismount their knights? What advanatges do you find dismounted knights have over mounted knights (besides cost)? Why do you dismoun them in the first place? Interested in hearing from everyone on this subject.
Papa Bear!
10-31-2002, 09:08
everytime I've seen this thread its concluded that dismounting knights is generally only realistic for castle defense.
(though personally I like mounted troops inside my castle), or on the off chance that you face an army of spearmen.
Still I think most people are happier putting their knights into a wedge, and running em behind the spears to hit em in the rear, then dismounting them and turning them into overpriced men at arms.
If you are playing on a map with alot of trees it pays to dismount em.
Richard the Slayer
10-31-2002, 09:18
Quote Originally posted by Saki:
If you are playing on a map with alot of trees it pays to dismount em.[/QUOTE]
Very true.
Jo_Beare
10-31-2002, 09:26
I would say that in most deffensive situations the foot knights have an advantage. Just find a clump of trees and have them try to move you. Feudal foot knights are kind of a waste though.
I am playing with the one of the mods from this site that allows for the training of foot knights. Highly recommended.
JoBeare
Richard the Slayer
10-31-2002, 09:35
Quote Originally posted by Jo_Beare:
I would say that in most deffensive situations the foot knights have an advantage. Just find a clump of trees and have them try to move you. Feudal foot knights are kind of a waste though.
I am playing with the one of the mods from this site that allows for the training of foot knights. Highly recommended.
JoBeare[/QUOTE]
Two points, or rather responses.
1) Your correct wooded terrain is better for dismounted troops. Unfortunately most European maps are mainly open terrain.
2) I've played only a few campaigns sp far, and I thought you could already train foot knights seperately. Overall I'm confused since originally I thought you could train and use foot knights at a cheaper price until someone said you can dismount them before the game. Perhaps the purchase of dismounted foot knights takes place only in multiplayer.
Papa Bear!
10-31-2002, 11:10
nope, can't train footknights. And I've not heard of any mods where you can either, (despite the above post), but just a little while ago on the DD forums, (think it was over there, I get confused), we were discussing the feasibility of implementing this in a mod.
Somewhere on these forums too, one guy guy made a mod where you could get feudal knights earlier, but still not the foot variety. (all this talk about "the foot" has me jonesing for a good ninja turtles movie).
anyway, in my experience, as I mentioned before, its just too big of an edge to be on horseback, to give it up. And, as ya say richard, there aren't many forest maps. (I've yet to play on one, the most heavily forested I've seen are the ones in russia, but their also totally flat so horsies still rule there)
Richard the Slayer
10-31-2002, 11:17
Quote Originally posted by Papa Bear!:
nope, can't train footknights. And I've not heard of any mods where you can either, (despite the above post), but just a little while ago on the DD forums, (think it was over there, I get confused), we were discussing the feasibility of implementing this in a mod.
Somewhere on these forums too, one guy guy made a mod where you could get feudal knights earlier, but still not the foot variety. (all this talk about "the foot" has me jonesing for a good ninja turtles movie).
anyway, in my experience, as I mentioned before, its just too big of an edge to be on horseback, to give it up. And, as ya say richard, there aren't many forest maps. (I've yet to play on one, the most heavily forested I've seen are the ones in russia, but their also totally flat so horsies still rule there)[/QUOTE]
hmm thats too bad. Just wish they could make foot knights really good defensively. I dont think mods for foot knights are ideal. even knights who were dismounted retained their mounts on campaign. I'm totally against these mods. if theres anything to change, give the foot knight a better defensive score, considering theres alot of experts who can tap into game files, these could be feasible. however CA will probably correct alot of unit balances in the patch so its best to wait.
In my current campaign I have two units of feudal foot knights. I can't say they are so brilliant as I thought. They are very good against other infantry, can be used in woods and in almost all defensive battles. Actually I use one of my ffk in battles and another one - like guard of my king 9like housecarles). This unit fights very seldom only if there is real threat to the king or if there is a necessity to stop routers (to encourage them etc).
Other dismounted catholic knights (chivalric foot knights, gothic foots, hospitalier foot knights etc) are much more effective than feudals. For example, hospitalier foot knights fight better and die slower than their mounted form.
These foot versions make the game more interesting, though I don't like the idea of building them instead of dismounting.
MonkeyMan
10-31-2002, 15:22
Modding foot knights is really quite easy, i won't go into it here, it's covered elsewhere repeatedly and there are files avaliable on this site. Currently the existing support and training cost for foot knights is too low however regardless of the 80 man units, which makes them a bit too good unless you change this. I find when i'm facing cavelry or spear units they can be indespensable. In terms of survivability they can fight much longer and harder. If you disregard the training of them and concentrate on a what if - where you have an army of only chiv/gothic mounted knights, i would tend to dismound about half, use them to engage spear and mounted units and quickly dispence of them, while their mounted friends ride to useful positions in the rear or flank, or engage archers and sword armed or peasant units.
I've found them to be valuable units easily the equals of their mounted friends and as the time line moves on and billhooks/polearms/pikes/gunpowder units/ advanced spear units become the norm they need much more frequent use, as is actually quite historically accurate particulary for english armies.
Dismounting knights is imperative in the desert, unless you expect to be able to get a charge off in less than a minute, that will win the battle for you.
There are so many anti-cavs out there that a unit of knights that can't run or charge is practically useless. Dismounted chivalrics are very nice because of their polearms, and they can hold on forever. You get more than a bonus to defense, you get rid of the limitations of the horses. I never have knights mounted in deserts, they simply get to totally exhausted too soon for them to be effective.
But other than a situation where you are outnumbered badly in the cav department, fighting in the desert/forest or defending a castle there isn't much use of the dismounted knights.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Michael the Great
11-02-2002, 00:00
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
Dismounting knights is imperative in the desert, unless you expect to be able to get a charge off in less than a minute, that will win the battle for you.
There are so many anti-cavs out there that a unit of knights that can't run or charge is practically useless. Dismounted chivalrics are very nice because of their polearms, and they can hold on forever. You get more than a bonus to defense, you get rid of the limitations of the horses. I never have knights mounted in deserts, they simply get to totally exhausted too soon for them to be effective.
But other than a situation where you are outnumbered badly in the cav department, fighting in the desert/forest or defending a castle there isn't much use of the dismounted knights.
[/QUOTE]
Yup,and Chivalric Foot Knights got 6 defence and 4 mellee!!!
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Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.
Papa Bear!
11-02-2002, 00:18
I'm already training my elite gallowglass horde for my future desert campaign.
I figure after a few more decades the gallows will be ready, and they'll suffice as my main infantry.
Richard the Slayer
11-02-2002, 01:41
Two questions...
1) why are mounted knights so ineffective in desert - because of enemy camels?
2) What exactly are gallowglasses? What kind of infantry are they? Also in my experience Chivalric Men at Arms are tough infantry too.
1) Knights have heavy armour making them exhausted very fast in the desert, often even before moving. Walking knights are not worth much, can't run away from spears that will defeat them. Dismounted knights will become exhausted too but a little slower as they have slightly lower Armour. But they at least don't have to fear spears too much, and they can take on Ghulams and other heavy cav at better terms.
2) Gallowglasses are shock infantry, heavy hitters but bad defence and a shaky Morale.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 11-02-2002).]
MonkeyMan
11-03-2002, 03:50
Quote Originally posted by Richard the Slayer:
2) What exactly are gallowglasses? What kind of infantry are they? Also in my experience Chivalric Men at Arms are tough infantry too.[/B][/QUOTE]
Gallowglasses are only built in ireland, with a certain level of swordsmith, effectively phychotic peasants with two handed swords. With a few armour upgrades they have a nice sting in the tale and their lack of base armour makes them comparatively good in the desert.
LordKhaine
11-03-2002, 04:34
I've started using Gallowglasses recently... impressive. Pack a punch and I used them to great effect by charging them out in front of my lines if enemy melee troops got too close to my archers. Kerns are good as well... worth taking Ireland thats for sure http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Quote Originally posted by Richard the Slayer:
hmm thats too bad. Just wish they could make foot knights really good defensively. I dont think mods for foot knights are ideal. even knights who were dismounted retained their mounts on campaign. I'm totally against these mods. if theres anything to change, give the foot knight a better defensive score, considering theres alot of experts who can tap into game files, these could be feasible. however CA will probably correct alot of unit balances in the patch so its best to wait.
[/QUOTE]
I completely agree that footknights should have better defense. Battles like Brémule, for example, show the advantage of dismounting knights to face mounted knights.
Antonio
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