Attacking with Chiv Seargeants

[RectalDamage]

My armies are 60%+ composed of chivalric seargeants. I found it great for defensive strategies, but they were taking significantly higher losses on attacking, especially uphill.

I recently figured away around this. When you are charging units towards the enemy, they will often break into a charge towards you as you come close. Then just hit stop. The sergeants should line up giving you the defense bonus, just before the enemy plows into you.

I find this significantly reduced my casualties.

[Satyr]

Does anyone know if the defence bonus is better than the charge one? I understand it is attack vs defend, but I was wondering which way is best? Thanks.

[Cardinal]

Quote Originally posted by RectalDamage:
I find this significantly reduced my casualties.[/QUOTE]

Well, good for you. I have made the same experience, specially using defencive units such as men with spears. There is however always the chance they won't charge, and just for good measures they have a few missile units in the rear peppering you with arrows (oh dear). What then?

I don't have my game with me, but I want to try something to see if it works; March some low quality peasant or urban militia units (spread out 2 deep) up to the enemy followed by sgt's and engage for so to route the poorer units. Keep your sgt's behind them in formation and hope that they stand firm. See if the enemy takes the bait and goes into pursuit. If they do they will soon find themselves laughing at the other side of their face.

As I said, I can not try it, but feel free to do the test. I will be glad for any feedback.



[This message has been edited by Cardinal (edited 11-01-2002).]

[anymapkoku]

Chiv sergeants should never be told to attack unless you're absolutely desperate and need to get them into the battle. Often times I will just park my chiv sergeants in front of the enemy ranged/spears and not attack. I'll let them get shot to death if I have to. But never order them to attack. What I like to do is power up my flankers and win the battle there. Time is not on his side and he eventually has to charge my chivS with his frontline or risk my flankers winning and getting enveloped by both my chivs and flankers. But under no conditions should you order a spear unit to attack unless,
A) You're desperate and your flankers need some help fast,
B) You can trap a cav and kill it,
C) Possibly to kill ranged units although I don't reccomend this. See D below.
D) Use wedge and engage at will to provide support to your other units (usually in the middle of the battle when things are chaotic and everyone's units are scattered around in a mess.)
E) After your armies are broken up and there's no clear line of battle, you will often want to use your chivS to support your other units, and your frontline doesn't matter as much. Just keep them near your fighting units at all times. Or if your spears have won and are still on hold ground, keep them that way and pull your flankers back toward your spear line.
F) If you're interested in your ChivS getting into the fight quickly, possibly yo minimise the arrows shots they'll sustain, then order them to move in close to the other army, but halt before fighting. Once in awhile you might select all your spears and click halt.

[cart6566]

Very nice tips anymap. Thank you.

[hrvojej]

Indeed they are. And would you know, the fact that he wrote them in such a nice and polite manner didn't negatively affect his playing skills at all... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by RectalDamage:
The sergeants should line up giving you the defense bonus, just before the enemy plows into you.
[/QUOTE]

What special defense bonus are you referring to? Do you have to put the unit on hold ground? Or else it will still engage, and in doing so miss it chance to employ its high charge bonus.



------------------
tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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[Michael the Great]

They r a unit with spears,so they have a good charge but a VERY POOR melee...

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Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.

[anymapkoku]

Well there melee is actually pretty good but it's just that it's all in defense and no attack so it takes them forever to win/lose. But by melee you probably meant attack which is correct. They are a good unit to have in 1vs1 vs anything else.

[RabidMonkey]

No one here seems to have caught on to how you use chiv spears (actually just spears in general). of course you attack with them! You should have a nice long line of spears covering the front of the enemys line of battle. Then just hurl them in! they have an abysmal attack factor but this doesnt matter cos there defense factor is huge. This means they will take a long time to kill the enemy but they can hold them up with there high defense. then its a simple matter of flanking the enemy and rolling them up.

this can be done with any combo of troop types, but i always use spears to engage and hold the enemy wether they are cav, spears or watever and then use my cav or MAA to flank and destroy! Sometimes even missile units can be used for flanking as its not always the quality of the unit that flanks its just the fact that the enemy is being attacked from all sides.

Anyway thats the end of my rant.

[anymapkoku]

You can try that rabid but you'll notice that a spear told to attack will lose to a standing spear. Not only that but it won't buy you as much time before your spears rout.

[Dorkus]

*hits self in head*

Regarding engage at will and wedge.... that's a good piece of advice. I've been repeatedly frustrated when using spearmen as surrogate flankers in the absence of other shock troops.

Tried a bit today using wedge and engage at will, and whaddaya know, they actually did some damage! I'm thinking now that a unit may not get its charge bonus if it's in hold formation, as I've always found spearmen's charge (in contrast to what you'd exect from the stats) to be strangely ineffective.

To Tootee and Mary:

There are two bonuses that spearmen can potentially receive from holding their position and formation. First, ALL units receive +2 defense, -2 attack when they use the "hold formation" command. I *believe* this bonus/penalty is negated when you move to attack, but I'm not certain about it.

Second, and more importantly, holding your position with spearmen ensures that your spearmen receive their rank bonuses (+1 def per rank for total of +2, and +1 atk per two ranks for total of +1). When you charge into battle or move awkwardly before engaging an enemy (whether he attacks you or vice versa), you no longer get rank bonuses.

[anymapkoku]

Wedge I think is really +5 attack -5 defense.
If x = the unit's stats,
then x-2 attack +2 defense = Holf formation.
But wedge = x +3 attack - 3 defense.
So wedge is really 5 attack higher than hold formation.

[favedave]

LONG POST - but lots of good info! (This is for SP, btw.)

Wow - a lot of misinformation here! Here's why you lose more CS when you attack:

First - as for the odds "to kill", it doesn't matter whether you attack or defend with your CS's.

Combat is calculated with simultaneous strikes, so your attack/defend values are BOTH being used at the same time.

So, it the the value of BOTH ATTACK and DEFENSE combined that matters. Because there's no such thing as "just defending", your attack value is being used to see if you kill the unit attacking you (when you strike back at them.)

For example: an Abyssinian Guard is the same in combat as the CS (Chivalric Sergeants).

AG
Attack 4
Def 0

CS
Attack -1
Def 5

When you add attack and def together for all these units, the total is 4.

And if you match up their attack/def difference with the kill chance percentage chart in the strat guide, they all come out totally even. They each have a 1.58% chance to kill each other (calculated approx. every second.)

This does not take into account other factors, such as charging, wedge, hold position, etc.

So you have to take other factors into consideration. If you are playing with large units sizes, you'll probably having longer battles, which means the charge factor (which only lasts a little while after initial contact) will not count as much.

CS are spear, which means you add 1 for each supporting rank (up to 2) if you charge, or if you are defending with supporting ranks the attacker can subtract 2. You only add 1 for every supporting ranks if you attack without a charge.

Units types (like men at arms) that don't need supporting ranks, can spread out wider, which means when they attack they WRAP AROUND their target and get the flank bonuses!

LIke this:

x = wide unit (like men at arms)
c = narrow unit (like CS)
_ = space

starting position=

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

____ccccccc_____
____ccccccc_____

after the attack=


_____xxxxxx_____
____xccccccx____
____xccccccx____
_____xx___xx____

So that's why you tend to lose more spear type units when you attack. Flanking is really important since it gives you +5 to your attack factor when you do - and the target loses their shield bonus as well. (And it makes the enemy lose 6 morale if you hit both flanks!) That +5 takes the to kill chance up to 3.94% - more than twice odds to kill as before!

Since the supporting ranks only give you +2, you can see who will come out the winner: the unit that can flank.


This is all foot vs foot - I'm not talking cav here.

So, you see, it's all the other factors added in that really make the difference in the battle.

Spear and pike: deep formation.
Sword, cavalry, and polearm: wide formation.

Deep formations must be kept close to each other for mutual protection from flanking.

Wide formations can move more independently with less fear of being flanked.


I'm no genius - this is all just using basic combined tactics. With a variety of units, you can carry the day. Use each type of unit for their best purpose.

I have a lot of CS with gallowglass, longbow, and a few cav in each army.

The CS hold the center and the gallowglass charge the flanks while ther longbow pepper the enemy. The cav circles to the rear and attacks the enemy archers.

Other units can be substituted. Billmen are one of the best units in the game since they're good against cav but can also spread out.

Once you get this, you'll only play the AI on the hardest level.

[This message has been edited by favedave (edited 11-03-2002).]

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Dorkus:
First, ALL units receive +2 defense, -2 attack when they use the "hold formation" command. I *believe* this bonus/penalty is negated when you move to attack, but I'm not certain about it.[/QUOTE]

No its not negated.

Quote Second, and more importantly, holding your position with spearmen ensures that your spearmen receive their rank bonuses (+1 def per rank for total of +2, and +1 atk per two ranks for total of +1). When you charge into battle or move awkwardly before engaging an enemy (whether he attacks you or vice versa), you no longer get rank bonuses. [/QUOTE]

"It isn't necessary to be in "hold formation" to get the rank support bonuses, they just work better that way. If the
unit is in "engage at will" all the men rush forwards to get at the enemy, and as a result many of them move away
from the position where they'd be elligable to provide support.

The bonuses are
+1 defence per supporting rank
+1 charge per supporting rank
+1 attack per 2 supporting ranks.

No they [spearmen] don't get rank bonuses in forests."

Above is post by LongJohn that I had archived. That should clear some of the misconception on rank bonus.


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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 11-03-2002).]

[Dorkus]

Quote Originally posted by tootee:
"It isn't necessary to be in "hold formation" to get the rank support bonuses, they just work better that way. If the
unit is in "engage at will" all the men rush forwards to get at the enemy, and as a result many of them move away
from the position where they'd be elligable to provide support.

The bonuses are
+1 defence per supporting rank
+1 charge per supporting rank
+1 attack per 2 supporting ranks.

No they [spearmen] don't get rank bonuses in forests."

Above is post by LongJohn that I had archived. That should clear some of the misconception on rank bonus.

[/QUOTE]

I believe longjohn wrote that in a thread I started. He also stated on numerous other occassions that unwieldly movements (long charges, turning before battle) prevent spears from getting their rank bonuses (for how long, is anybody's guess).

Regardless, based on my personal exp, I think anymap is on to somethign when he says taht you're better off holding ground with spears than attacking. Since personal experience is just that, I did some tests yesterday -- 10 runs of attack and 10 runs of holding ground in a valor 0 spearmen vs. spearmen fight, all on normal difficulty.

There were three general deaths -- 2 for me, 1 for the AI -- and they were thrown out of the results.

Spearmen attacking (single click at start of map)

Average men left: 31.8
Average enemy left: 31.9
W-L: 6-4


Spearmen holding ground (to ensure fatigue doesn't bias results, I still single clicked at the start of map, but hit halt right before engaging)

AML: 36.2
AEL: 32.6
W-L: 8-2

On the hold ground tests, I generally lost a few men to the enemy charge, but made up for it with greater survivability for the rest of the fight. It should be noted that when the spearmen were given halt orders prior to the fight, they were NOT considered to be in the 'fighting' state during the battle. If you moved the mouse over them, they were 'standing' despite the fact that they were actually engaged in a battle.

Whatever bonus spearmen are granted for being in the 'standing' state is probably what makes them better when they hold their ground.

Possible problems with the above test:
1. 10 runs does not constitue proof, particularly when the variance in results is relatively high, as it is in this case.
2. Difference between single/double clicking. Don't think this matters, as the AI was not getting more kills on the charge than I was.
3. I don't think agincourt is completely flat. Again, shouldn't matter since I started on the same side during all tests, so even if one side gets an advantage, I would have gotten the advantage on BOTH runs.
4. To reduce variance, I probably should ahve used valor 4 spearmen. I had a few outliers in both runs stemming from early break-offs by one side or the other.

I guess the point I would make is that, if there's a misconception about rank bonuses, it probably is closer to the 'rank bonuses are easy to get' position than the 'rank bonuses require you to stand perfectly still' position. Alternatively, it could be that, as I hypothesized, the hold formation bonus doesn't apply when you attack.

It also could be both. Or there could be some other explanation.

Whatever the cause, something DOES seem to be going on when you hold your ground rather than attack.

[Dorkus]

Oh, one other thing. I know longjohn has stated otherwise. But I'm not entirely convinced that spears don't get rank bonuses in forests.

I did some tests a little while back, AUM vs. Chiv sergs, and the outcomes were similar whether I had them fighting in forests or in the open field.

There was a lot of other stuff going on, however, as the terrain wasn't entirely level on the map I used, and the forests weren't super thick. I also don't have any data from that test, as I did it a while back. Still, something to think about... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[tootee]

Hold ground ensure that the formation is not mess up. In hold formation only, the unit can go messy, but it tries its best to maintain rank, so not all the time a soldier in front get rank bonus during the fight. In hold ground, the unit just stand there, so the rear ranks are facing forward and thus always providing the rank bonus. The rear supporting men have to face forward for bonus to be effected on the 1st man.

As for the bonus in trees, I didnt test it, but dont use AUM vs Chivalric Sergeant. C.S can beat AUM even without rank bonus if its of the same rank, and 100men vs 60men is hard to acccount for things. Try changing the stats of Byzantine Inf to that of Chivalric Sergeant, and enagage both in trees, and in the open. That is fairer. Put Chivalric Sergeant in hold formation hold ground, while Byzantine Inf in hold formation, so that all get same melee and defend points. If rank bonus is missing in trees, the casualty rate should be very different between the two test.

------------------
tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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[econ21]

I tried standing to receive AI attacks but am not too happy with the results. The AI seems very good at maneouvring at very close proximity in order to charge its heavy cavalry at your spearmen's flanks. Even when I have a line of spear units, there tends to be some gaps and slight misalignment of angles between units, which the AI exploits ruthlessly. Once, a vanilla spear unit routed almost instaneously on bearing such an assault.
Given this, it is probably better to attack and avoid being flanked. Of course, this tends to expose a larger flank which the AI then exploits. The AI is managing to do pretty well against me right now, even when I am defending and have better tech (Arbalasters and chiv sergeants) - it loses, but gets a lot of kills.
Maybe I would get better results - a straighter front line of units - if I group my spears or something (I've never tried that). But I tend to use a inverse U formation to discourage AI flanking, so some kinks in the line are inevitable.

[This message has been edited by Simon Appleton (edited 11-04-2002).]

[anymapkoku]

If a horse tries to attack your spear just click the spear and alt turn it towards the horse. Even if your spear routs, you did more damage to the horse than it did to you, as horses perform poorly against spears.