View Full Version : About time someone stands up to Scientologists
Yes, someone in France has charged the Church of Scientology for fraud.
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL820153620080908?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true
PARIS (Reuters) - A French judge has ordered two departments and seven prominent members of the Church of Scientology in France to stand trial on charges of organized fraud, a judicial source said on Monday.
The case is the latest in a series of legal battles that have pitted the French judicial system against the Scientologists, who could be forced to stop their activities in France if found guilty.
The latest suit centers on a complaint made in 1998 by a woman who said she was enrolled into the Church of Scientology by a group of people she met outside a metro station.
In the following months, she said she paid 140,000 francs (21,340 euros) for "purification packs" and books which she said were a fraud. Other complaints then surfaced, prolonging the investigation.
Judge Jean-Christophe Hullin ruled that the Scientologists' Celebrity Center, bookstore and seven Church leaders should be tried for fraud and "illegally practicing as pharmacists".
The Church of Scientology is registered as a religion in the United States but has struggled to be accepted in Europe, with French authorities seeing it as a sect masquerading as a church to make money.
The Church of Scientology denounced Monday's ruling, saying it was being "stigmatized" by the courts.
"The special treatment reserved for the Church of Scientology Celebrity Center raises questions about the equality of the justice system and the presumption of innocence," it said in a statement.
The public prosecutor had said the case should be shelved. In a relatively rare move, Judge Hullin ignored the recommendation and ordered a trial, which is not expected to start for at least six months.
The Scientologists said the suit was "empty and concocted", adding that the original plaintiff had been reimbursed.
The Church of Scientology, which counts actors Tom Cruise and John Travolta among its members, was founded in 1954 by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard.
It has faced numerous setbacks in France, with members convicted of fraud in Lyon in 1997 and Marseille in 1999. In 2002, a court fined it for violating privacy laws and said it could be dissolved if involved in similar cases.
France, I salute you :2thumbsup:
Tribesman
09-10-2008, 11:08
The Scientologists said the suit was "empty and concocted", adding that the original plaintiff had been reimbursed.
Since they paid the money back does that mean that they admit the "services" and goods they sold her were indeed crap and the transactions fraudulent ?
pevergreen
09-10-2008, 12:16
This makes me proud to be of French descent.
Thank you, France. :2thumbsup:
Rhyfelwyr
09-10-2008, 14:02
:bow: to :france:
Hail Xenu, er, I mean France! :2thumbsup:
In the US. Where they have enough financial and celebrity clout to get away with almost anything.
Louis VI the Fat
09-10-2008, 18:06
Good. Next, the papists and the muslims. :knight:
Too much agreement in this thread. :whip:
In the US. Where they have enough financial and celebrity clout to get away with almost anything. Not to mention, too much respect for freedom of religion. America is a Navarosocracy. That is to say, faith is placed above freedom and equality. 'One nation under God', to quote the most ignoble words in US history.
Good. Next, the papists and the muslims. :knight:
Too much agreement in this thread. :whip:
Not to mention, too much respect for freedom of religion. America is a Navarosocracy. That is to say, faith is placed above freedom and equality. 'One nation under God', to quote the most ignoble words in US history.
:smash:
~:cheers: to :france: :2thumbsup:
Granted, I have an inherent distrust of most organized religions, but few are so blatantly fraudulent (or absurd) as Scientology. Here's hoping the French can keep the cancer from spreading!
lars573 & Louis VI the Fat: It pains me to say this, but I think you're probably right about why Scientology has flourished over here. (That, and/or we're that much more gullible than Europeans.) :embarassed:
TevashSzat
09-10-2008, 20:23
Good job France.
Just for future reference, be wary when your religion is based off of the thinkings and works of a science fiction writer
Strike For The South
09-11-2008, 05:52
Good. Next, the papists and the muslims. :knight:
Too much agreement in this thread. :whip:
Not to mention, too much respect for freedom of religion. America is a Navarosocracy. That is to say, faith is placed above freedom and equality. 'One nation under God', to quote the most ignoble words in US history.
I have one god but I care not if my neighbor has twenty. Freedom first and foremost is the ability to do what you want until you impede on someone else's freedom. If these people want to believe let them. If they want to try and convert people let them. It is only when a scientologist (Or a catholic muslim or baptist etc.) tries to use his religious principles as the guiding force in the way he believes the country should be run does it become a problem. The governments bible is the constitution and its ten commandments the bill of rights. What you do in your off time is not my concern
seireikhaan
09-11-2008, 05:54
I salute our wine-sipping, non-showering, white flag waving allies! :2thumbsup:
Strike For The South
09-11-2008, 05:57
I salute our wine-sipping, non-showering, white flag waving allies! :2thumbsup:
This is reverse bigotry
seireikhaan
09-11-2008, 06:03
This is reverse bigotry
Pardon? Towards the French or the whackos?
Strike For The South
09-11-2008, 06:05
Pardon? Towards the French or the whackos?
the whackos.
seireikhaan
09-11-2008, 06:09
Well if they're blatantly ripping people off by telling them they have to donate their cash to get to meet Xenu or whatever, than that is fraud. Now in this case, they apparently reimbursed the person, but they're still so full of crap they don't know which end it comes out of.
Strike For The South
09-11-2008, 06:15
Well if they're blatantly ripping people off by telling them they have to donate their cash to get to meet Xenu or whatever, than that is fraud. Now in this case, they apparently reimbursed the person, but they're still so full of crap they don't know which end it comes out of.
They didnt force her. Organized religion has been taking money for hundreds of years its just mostly in smaller bits. Who is the government to stop these people? Ever heard of tithing? For years my relatives gave 10% of their yearly earnings to the church and trust a couple of thousand could've helped with kids. Spare me this line of the government is protecting the people Scientology is a scapegoat and France wants to feel enlightened. Whatever
Papewaio
09-11-2008, 07:39
I wonder what Voltaire would think?
A fool and their money are soon parted.
I like this almost as much as the LHC... viva La France!
They didnt force her. Organized religion has been taking money for hundreds of years its just mostly in smaller bits. Who is the government to stop these people? Ever heard of tithing? For years my relatives gave 10% of their yearly earnings to the church and trust a couple of thousand could've helped with kids. Spare me this line of the government is protecting the people Scientology is a scapegoat and France wants to feel enlightened. Whatever
In the early church, people gave everything they owned.
In fact wasn't this the reason the rich young man walked away sorrowful? He wouldn't sell everything he had and give it to the poor.
They didnt force her. Organized religion has been taking money for hundreds of years its just mostly in smaller bits. Who is the government to stop these people? Ever heard of tithing? For years my relatives gave 10% of their yearly earnings to the church and trust a couple of thousand could've helped with kids. Spare me this line of the government is protecting the people Scientology is a scapegoat and France wants to feel enlightened. Whatever
Well unfortunately we didn´t have civilized governments when the catholic church started laying it´s tentacles around the world....you are absolutely right, what they did back in the day was no better than this.
But the truth is that we can´t get rid of them now....they have become part of the social fabric unfortunately and are not going anywhere...but to say that just because we couldn´t do anything about the old threats that we should do anything about the new one just to maintain some sort of "balance" is ridiculous.....one does what one can.
They didnt force her. Organized religion has been taking money for hundreds of years its just mostly in smaller bits.
Actually scientologists do force people to pay if they wanna be apart of the cult.
While I have no respect for christianity or the other religions, they atleast don't require you to pay them money.
If you wanna donate money to them then that's fine, that's why they don't pay taxes afterall but it is still an optional thing.
It's not in scientology. If you don't give the church everything you own, then you are out. And the christian church atleast donates some of their money to charity, Scientology don't.
They spend their money conducting espionage on the goverments(they did conduct the largest domestic espionage in the history of the US) and on normal citizens just in case they dare to speak up against them.
And on their spare time they tell people about how psychiatry caused the holocaust and other things.
So the goverment should crack down on them since it's nothing but a cult run by criminals that sucks people dry and in some cases even killed them.
Actually scientologists do force people to pay if they wanna be apart of the cult.
While I have no respect for christianity or the other religions, they atleast don't require you to pay them money.
If you wanna donate money to them then that's fine, that's why they don't pay taxes afterall but it is still an optional thing.
It's not in scientology. If you don't give the church everything you own, then you are out. And the christian church atleast donates some of their money to charity, Scientology don't.
They spend their money conducting espionage on the goverments(they did conduct the largest domestic espionage in the history of the US) and on normal citizens just in case they dare to speak up against them.
And on their spare time they tell people about how psychiatry caused the holocaust and other things.
So the goverment should crack down on them since it's nothing but a cult run by criminals that sucks people dry and in some cases even killed them.
Back in the day you could be a Christian for free...but you had to pay, and pay heavily to get access to the full "bling-bling upper membership get out of hell free card" status.
what´s a difference between a cult and a religion?...vintage my friend.
Back in the day you could be a Christian for free...but you had to pay, and pay heavily to get access to the full "bling-bling upper membership get out of hell free card" status.
what´s a difference between a cult and a religion?...vintage my friend.
For me, they are all cults, only difference is the size.
And yes during the old days christianity was "corrupt" you could say but I'm talking about these days.
These days, in secular countries they are fighting to survive.
rory_20_uk
09-11-2008, 15:14
~:cheers: to :france: :2thumbsup:
Granted, I have an inherent distrust of most organized religions, but few are so blatantly fraudulent (or absurd) as Scientology. Here's hoping the French can keep the cancer from spreading!
lars573 & Louis VI the Fat: It pains me to say this, but I think you're probably right about why Scientology has flourished over here. (That, and/or we're that much more gullible than Europeans.) :embarassed:
Damn right. :thumbsup:
~:smoking:
Strike For The South
09-11-2008, 18:37
So we have
Lady vounltary signs up for what she believes will give her peace of mind
Lady gives money
Lady feels no spiritual connection with anything
Lady sues
If this were a normal religion it would be thrown out but since its something like Scientology its a valid case...give me a break. Most of these people qualify for Darwin awards and now when its convenient we say they are duped? There have been threads her before were followers of this religion have been called some not so nice names for being blind and stupid.
You really don't how Scientology works do you? You don't give money. You buy products and services. Books, various pills and tonics, tests. So on and so forth as you climb the ladder of the mystery cult. These goods and services aren't cheap either. Oh sure they'll sell you a theton test for $50. Or a soft cover of dianetics for $40. Those and the promises of fullfilment are just the hook. But the higher you go the more zeroes your adding.
Strike For The South
09-11-2008, 19:00
You really don't how Scientology works do you? You don't give money. You buy products and services. Books, various pills and tonics, tests. So on and so forth as you climb the ladder of the mystery cult. These goods and services aren't cheap either. Oh sure they'll sell you a theton test for $50. Or a soft cover of dianetics for $40. Those and the promises of fullfilment are just the hook. But the higher you go the more zeroes your adding.
and she was dumb enough to sign up and keep giving cash? I didnt know the French took cases based on stupitidy
Religons have been doing this for years. Bigotry Bigotry Bigotry
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
09-11-2008, 19:26
Scientology always been a joke. I can't understand why people do it....
Tribesman
09-11-2008, 19:36
and she was dumb enough to sign up and keep giving cash? I didnt know the French took cases based on stupitidy
Most fraud cases are based on stupidity .
I'm going to agree with strike here.
and she was dumb enough to sign up and keep giving cash? I didnt know the French took cases based on stupitidy
So ??
The law protects all, even those that are stupid.
Rhyfelwyr
09-11-2008, 23:06
and she was dumb enough to sign up and keep giving cash? I didnt know the French took cases based on stupitidy
Religons have been doing this for years. Bigotry Bigotry Bigotry
You can't seriously compare Scientology to the more traditional religions. The closest thing that I can think of in Christianity to the money-grabbing methods of Scientology were the indulgences which the Roman Catholic church encouraged. But Christianity had the Reformation and solved this problem. Maybe that's just what Scientology needs!
:idea:
So we have
Lady vounltary signs up for what she believes will give her peace of mind
Lady gives money
Lady feels no spiritual connection with anything
Lady sues
If this were a normal religion it would be thrown out but since its something like Scientology its a valid case...give me a break. Most of these people qualify for Darwin awards and now when its convenient we say they are duped? There have been threads her before were followers of this religion have been called some not so nice names for being blind and stupid.
You could equally well argue, that the Scientologists sold this woman a product and the product didn't do as advertised. Surely in that case she's entirely within her rights to sue them over it?
Much as I love a good rant on the evils of religion in general and Scientology in particular, seems to me the religious connection is actually quite incidental. Seems like a simple case of false advertising; it's much like the law that was recently passed here in the UK requiring fortune tellers, mediums and the like to describe themselves as "entertainers" rather than claiming to actual be able to predict the future or contact dead people.
Scientology always been a joke. I can't understand why people do it....
It's about as silly as believing that men is responsible for climate change
HAIL GLOBAL WARMING
You can't seriously compare Scientology to the more traditional religions. The closest thing that I can think of in Christianity to the money-grabbing methods of Scientology were the indulgences which the Roman Catholic church encouraged. But Christianity had the Reformation and solved this problem. Maybe that's just what Scientology needs!
:idea:
Actually as I mentioned earlier, the early church was quite the money grabber and the punishment for holding on to some of the money was harsh.
Let me present two pieces from the New Testament:
Acts 2:44-45
And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Acts 5:1-11
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
InsaneApache
09-12-2008, 11:41
Sounds like old Pete did a bit of smiting. :laugh4:
Actually as I mentioned earlier, the early church was quite the money grabber and the punishment for holding on to some of the money was harsh.
Let me present two pieces from the New Testament:
Acts 2:44-45
And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Acts 5:1-11
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
God is a Communist!!!! :smash:
how the worm turns.... :sweatdrop::2thumbsup:
Eh, no, I read it up and noticed a few things, the first passage you quoted, Sigurd, says theysold their stuff on their own will and gave money to the poor, nothing says that the church got any money or even demanded that.
The second passage is about how that guy pretended to give a whole lot of money to god but actually gave less than he wanted the others to think and in my bible he just drops dead so god killed him, just like his wife. In your quote it sounds like the men killed him and god made his wife drop dead which seems a bit weird because a) that would mean god directly punished his wife but not him and b) that would mean the new testament would advertise murder/say murder is okay when the church does it but I'm pretty sure that can't be it and my bible(in german) has it a bit different anyway unless I completely misunderstood that ancient english you posted there. :dizzy2:
InsaneApache
09-12-2008, 13:45
Sounds like old Jahwah did a bit of smiting. :laugh4:
Eh, no, I read it up and noticed a few things, the first passage you quoted, Sigurd, says they sold their stuff on their own will and gave money to the poor, nothing says that the church got any money or even demanded that.
Hi Hus,
I am sorry to say that I am right on this one. I have studied it a little and the early Christians did live in small communities where they did not have possessions. The faithful sold everything and gave it to the church who then redistributed it where there was need.
Another passage from Acts (4:32)
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
This is not something new in the Judea/Christian tradition . The inhabitants of Zion (the city of Enoch) lived like this for 365 years and were rewarded by being taken up to heaven. The religious group of Essenes also lived like this. I believe there are strong ties between the Essenes and the early Christians and have pointed out this several times. Pindar had strong arguments against this tie and I couldn't find convincing enough arguments to sway him.
The verse in Acts chapter 2 do not specifically say poor. And this is strange if they indeed gave the money to the poor. Luke who wrote Acts, repeatedly refer to the poor as the poor (see the rich young man who was told to sell his possessions and give it to the poor and Zacchaeus who gave his voluntarily).
the Bible quotes are from the King James version.
The second passage is about how that guy pretended to give a whole lot of money to god but actually gave less than he wanted the others to think and in my bible he just drops dead so god killed him, just like his wife. In your quote it sounds like the men killed him and god made his wife drop dead which seems a bit weird because a) that would mean god directly punished his wife but not him and b) that would mean the new testament would advertise murder/say murder is okay when the church does it but I'm pretty sure that can't be it and my bible(in german) has it a bit different anyway unless I completely misunderstood that ancient english you posted there. :dizzy2:
The Church at this stage had all things in common and lived in a close community. Faithful members were ordered to sell their land and properties and give it to the church. The church then redistributed the wealth to its members, all according to their needs. i.e when they needed something they got it from the church. There were no poor among them like with the Essenes and the citizens of Zion.
Ananias and his wife sold their property (i.e land) and gave it to the church (note the laid it at the apostles' feet wording). But they withheld some of the money and were punished by death. In the text it alludes to an act of God just as those who touched the holy ark at Moses' time. They just gave up the Ghost and was dead before hitting the ground. Why such harsh penalty for just keeping something that was originally theirs? Apparently this was an important rule in the early church which did not punish harlots or tax men.
Also note Luke's comments on the fear that washed over the church members. Maybe they were just making an example of Ananias and his wife to get the others to pay all their money?
I doubt any other tried this with Peter and the Apostles again.
You're not saying that Peter and the apostles killed them and then said god did it, are you?
Because that is the atheist view and as a true agnostic you should be open to the fact that god actually did it and supported the actions of the apostles and punished the two for their sins and because god is good and all his decisions are just you cannot really make a case against christianity out of this unless you want to oppose god and be a sinner and that disqualifies your opinion anyway. :dozey:
Also the fact that they had all things in common and got what they needed is what seperates them from the likes of Scientology where you just give and receive a load of hot air until your life is completely ruined.
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