View Full Version : IS Hold Formation is Usseles for non-spear units...?
Michael the Great
10-27-2002, 21:52
I know that there have been numerous posts about what do these commands do,but i want to bring something new in disscusion.
Now,u said that hold position makes the units engage the enemy but hold the position they have.
Hold formation does what?
I know that the rank bonus spear units get is much better applyed when in hold,just as Longjohn quoted,but,I can't think of another function for it in the case of non-spear units...
What advantages does it give for defending in this case? I know that when in hold formation,the soldiers don't break formation to all engage the enemy,but,again,what advantage does this give in defending?
The same for hold position.
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Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.
[This message has been edited by Michael the Great (edited 10-27-2002).]
chilliwilli
10-27-2002, 21:59
Well it will benefit any unit defending that has a good defense rating. It won't do anything for a unit like ghazi infantry though.
It grants -2 to attack and +2 to defence...
It is good for Peasants if you want them to survive longer holding an enemy. In Engage, if it gets a little too mingled you get a -2 Moralepenalty... So that is even more important for the Peasants.
Hold Formation just makes sure your men are not moving around. Great for taking on enemies at the edge of a bridge.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Hosakawa Tito
10-27-2002, 22:45
I use it in some defensive situations with missle units too. I don't want my archers/crossbows dancing around in skirmish mode, I want them to hold and continue firing
while my spear units engage and pin the enemy in front of my archers. I might lose a few more archers that way, but they are cheap, and my line of defense don't get all jumbled up.
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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
Pachinko
10-27-2002, 22:58
I used the hold for missile/specialy the Arq. All of my Spear men is a hold. Its pretty good. I never use the hold for the Cav and the sword.
Peasants..Bah!..never use it all...yuck.
P.
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Crush your enemies, see them driven before you on the field of battle, and hear the lamentation of their women.
Dev quote>>Sigh, ye of little faith. Don't assume everything is a bug.
Sjakihata
10-27-2002, 23:05
Of course armies only used elite sword units with shiny expensive armours, cos in the dark ages the countries were very rich and was not forced to use poorly trained spearmen or peasants....
Quote Originally posted by Sjakihata Akechi:
Of course armies only used elite sword units with shiny expensive armours, cos in the dark ages the countries were very rich and was not forced to use poorly trained spearmen or peasants....
[/QUOTE]
Hahaha...
I must say that I meant to write Hold Posistion in the last paragraph in my other post. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
About the Peasants... In the early game where you need all the powerful units at the front very soon Peasants can take up the garrisoning for some time (until you have developed some more). At times these Peasants will be forced into combat, and then it is important to know how to make them last long enough to actually be something else than a liability (when they rout).
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Many ppl like to use Gallowglasses in wedge formation ... if you set them on hold formation ... they will remain in the wedge after their first impact ... same with knights !
I found the Wedge with the Hold Formation ordser very usefull to break enemy Line formations ... the leader of the Unit in wedge formation will most likely die, tho.
muffinman14
10-28-2002, 01:05
thats wat the wedge is for to go behind an enemy click wedge fromation and wahla the enemy is running like screaming children running out of a haunted house!
[This message has been edited by muffinman14 (edited 10-27-2002).]
LittleGrizzly
10-28-2002, 06:22
i use hold formation to hold a weak flank while my other flank wins leaving me win http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Swoosh So
10-28-2002, 17:09
If your playing multiplayer and a units about to rout put it on hold formation till you can support it, Works for all units cav too
Hooooooooowl
Ill give an example you are playing online 1v1 one of your cav units gets caught in a spear sandwich if you cant break it off from the combat put it on hold formation, it wont win the battle but it should last a bit longer so that you can recover the situation, hehe some peeps use this as a tactic a wide unit ie 3 ranks deep on hold formation can keep 2 units occupied while you hit a flank http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Hooooooooooooooowl
[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-28-2002).]
NinjaKilla
10-28-2002, 17:40
I use it on my gen - in olde STW a Yari gen definately survived way longer if he was on hold.
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
Michael the Great
10-29-2002, 00:15
Yes,but I was asking about:
Hold Formation gives the rank bonus for spear units,but why use it for poleaxe,sword,axe,mace etc. units who don't get the rank bonus?
U said that u use hold formation 2 attack,well here's news for ya:hold formation is a pure defensive order! Ya can't attack when in hold formation.Use engage at will if ya want 2 engage the enemy,not hold formation...sheesh...
But the problem is:if I want to leave,let's say 1 unit of Chiv Foot Knights(He he,nice units) who are poleaxe troops,to defend,why should I put them on hold formation,when I can put them on hold position 2 do the same thing,while they get no rank bouns like spear/pike troops?
The fact is that when in hold formation,u CAN issue move orders 2 your troops,while in hold position,they defend their position and don't leave it,so,while in hold formation u can still turn 2 avoid being flanked,in hold position u r VERY vulnerable to flanking.
Did u see that,when in hold formation,when a unit is engaged by the enemy,only the rank that is engaged fights the enemy,while the others stay in formation(they don't all break up 2 engage thy enemy);tough I'm not sure that hold formation slows a unit down(IT SHOULD!!!).
In hold position,a unit does break up the formation and all men rush up to engage the enemy,only that they don't leave their current position,and can't be given move orders.
Kraxis,r u sure that hold formation does give +2 to defence and -2 to attack?? u got that from the strat guide???
I tend 2 think that some impetous units will ignore such orders http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
So,my question,do spear/pike units get +2 to defence and -2 to attack AND the rank bonus added to that,or how does the rank bonus work?
And for non-spear/pike units it only gives +2 to attack and -2 to defence??
P.S. Cavalry should have the hold formation and hold position orders,greyed out-u can't hold formation or position on a horse!!!
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Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.
Swoosh So
10-29-2002, 00:18
I fail to see how cavalry cant hold formation?
Michael the Great
10-29-2002, 00:27
Quote Originally posted by Swoosh So:
I fail to see how cavalry cant hold formation?[/QUOTE]
Cavalry didn't have a defensive role.
U can't hold your ground when on a horse!
Horses can't hold their lines too well 2 defend.
Horses were Never used in defensive situations(I mean that they ENGAGED the enemy,and not let themselves be engaged).
Anyway,this is not the topic question.
Swoosh So
10-29-2002, 00:36
Yes but im sure they could hold formation to a certain degree , arrg nooo i wont be pulled into a historical conversation exiting thread now>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Michael the Great
10-29-2002, 00:50
Swoosh(and the others),can u plz answer my previos questions about hold formation and position.
I just don't know why u brought in a cavalry debate.
This thread has nothing to do with cavalry...
[This message has been edited by Michael the Great (edited 10-28-2002).]
Swoosh So
10-29-2002, 01:44
I think its been answered about the defence bonus, but hold position gives no advantages or disadvantages, Its merely a nice little option so that units move back to the spot they occupied b4 skirmishing away or whatever, ie missles infront of spears, cav charge your missles missles move behind spear , spear kills cav , missles automatically move back to position in front of spears.
anymapkoku
10-29-2002, 01:59
Isn't this stuff just obvious?
Quote Originally posted by Michael the Great:
Kraxis,r u sure that hold formation does give +2 to defence and -2 to attack?? u got that from the strat guide???
I tend 2 think that some impetous units will ignore such orders http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
So,my question,do spear/pike units get +2 to defence and -2 to attack AND the rank bonus added to that,or how does the rank bonus work?
And for non-spear/pike units it only gives +2 to attack and -2 to defence??
[/QUOTE]
I don't know anymore... It was all the way back in STW I was informed of this, then in MTW I think it was asked during the demo-days if it was still in and we got a positive answer. I'm pretty sure it is in the strat guide. It is the same as Wedge gives +3 attack and -3 defence. It is the same for all units... all get the same bonus for formation.
It is indeed added to the rankbonus, which grant 1 to attack, 2 to def and 2 to charge for every two ranks behind the fighting ranks, thus making spearmen in four ranks the most powerful they can be.
Lets see what normal Spearmen have if in Hold and four ranks fighting cav (best scenario):
Base stats
5/-1/-1 (charge/attack/defence).
But then there is the shields (adds two def).
5/-1/1
Then add anti-cav
5/0/5
And rankbonus
7/1/7
And finally Hold Formation
7/-1/9!!!!!
Quite powerful is it not?
[EDIT] Had missed writing the -2 to attack.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 10-29-2002).]
Michael the Great
10-29-2002, 16:55
Yup,really powerfull,and what about pikemen?
Now,the problem is that hold formation should slow units up,but I haven't noticed this.I really hope a dev is reading this....when on hold formation,a unit should move much slower,being more vulnerable to flank and rear attack...
P.S.the wedge gives +3 to charge and -3 to defence.I think that after the charge(who should be made to last longer and have more impact,it should switch back 2 close formation,or take the +3 -3 back;remember,there is no wedge or close when the formations break up,so,in the process of the charge u should kill most men and have most men killed when in a wedge,after the units engage,the wedge should be greyed out until they rout,u disengage.
Just think,after the charge,a wedge is useless,so u have to switch back to close,wich ISN'T AT ALL Realistic...
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Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.
Ideally the pros and cons of Hold formation and Wedge could be modeled simply by the way the men are arranged without giving an underlying per man combat bonus/penalty.
Del
Quote Originally posted by Michael the Great:
Yup,really powerfull,and what about pikemen?
[/QUOTE]
Pikemen in eight ranks (they fight with 4 ranks and can be supported by another 4).... Ok here goes.
Basic stats: 4/1/-1
They have no shields so we go straight for anti-cav (2/6).
4/3/5
Rankbonus.
8/5/9
And Hold Formation.
8/3/11
Not bad at all, but considering they need to be in 8 ranks it makes them very easy to flank. You will need a whole phalanx of these guys for them to be effective.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Michael the Great
10-30-2002, 16:38
Anyway,I find the best defensive units the Chiv Foot Knights....2 bad u can only make'em only when dismounting Chivalric Knights...
MizuKokami
10-30-2002, 23:38
hold formation should be used for any mismathes. lets say your marching your shock troops along, and wham, a killer cav jumps out at them and potentially could break your whole line. units in hold formation don't do as much damage, but they don't take as much damage either. as a result, in bad match-ups, they are slightly less likely to rout. same thing the other way around. if you manage to get your enemy's cav in your spear net, switch your spears to engage at will, because units that are on engage at will do more damage, therefore the enemy is more likely to rout.
Quote Originally posted by MizuKokami:
if you manage to get your enemy's cav in your spear net, switch your spears to engage at will, because units that are on engage at will do more damage, therefore the enemy is more likely to rout.[/QUOTE]
That depends on a lot of things...
You run the risk of losing the rankbonus, but ok +2 to attack is better than +1... But you risk losing the two ranks fighting as well, and that is not good at all.
I usually wait until the cav is down to 15 or so before I put my men on Engage.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Quote Originally posted by Sjakihata Akechi:
Of course armies only used elite sword units with shiny expensive armours, cos in the dark ages the countries were very rich and was not forced to use poorly trained spearmen or peasants....
[/QUOTE]
The game is called Medieval: Total War and not Dark Ages: Total War http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Quote Originally posted by Arcsim:
The game is called Medieval: Total War and not Dark Ages: Total War http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif[/QUOTE]
True that.
But you should know that he perhaps just made a simple mistake.
In Denmark (where he is from, as I am) the medieval times are the Dark Ages, we actually call them the Dark Middle Ages, while the Dark Ages we call the Viking Age and late Iron Age (Viking Age coming after Late Iron). Those ages are mystified and greatly romaticised here... And who can blame us... It was the only time when our ancestors actually were feared and had an impact out in the world. So obviously we don't see it as a downtime as most Europeans do.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 10-30-2002).]
anymapkoku
10-31-2002, 06:26
But any good player will not let his cavalry fight your spears, so you're really racing against the clock when you decide to engage at will or hold formation. Do you want to do as much damage as possible before he runs away? Or do you want the rank bonus? Now he attacks the spear on purpose then you can hold because he's an idiot and doesn't know that spears beat cav, and hold is safer than engage because other units might come into the mix.
--reaverlisk
Michael the Great
11-01-2002, 17:57
Well,Kraxis,I could then bet that the faction u tried was the danes right?? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Really now,just as the wedge,u use hold formation to maximize the defence of a unit(wich already has a good defence).
Btw,do only spear units have rank bonuses?
P.S. Order Foot r GREAT!
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Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.
Quote Originally posted by Michael the Great:
Well,Kraxis,I could then bet that the faction u tried was the danes right?? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Really now,just as the wedge,u use hold formation to maximize the defence of a unit(wich already has a good defence).
Btw,do only spear units have rank bonuses?
P.S. Order Foot r GREAT!
[/QUOTE]
Actually both my campaign as Danes have failed miserably... Used too much money and tried to tech in both Sweden and Denamark at he same time. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Besides that I'm pretty pissed off by the no-Crusade feature for the Danes and Polish.
Naturally you use the Hold like you use the Wedge, to boost a unit of that capability. I found a great way to trap a king.
Fight him with spears, put them in Engage for a while, when he has entered the formation put it back to Hold, king can't get out. But I prefer to kill him with arrows.
Yes, the pikes get the bonus too and an even better version, they get four ranks support on top of the four ranks fighting.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Michael the Great
11-01-2002, 18:25
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
Yes, the pikes get the bonus too and an even better version, they get four ranks support on top of the four ranks fighting.
[/QUOTE]
What do u mean by 4 rank support besides the 4 ranks fighting.
Btw,what r ur favorite defensive units?
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There is one rule that cannot be broken :poleaxes RULE!
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Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.
[This message has been edited by Michael the Great (edited 11-01-2002).]
Michael the Great
11-02-2002, 01:03
Just as Longjohn once quoted,spearmen/pikemen,get the rank bonus anyway(u don't need to put them on hold formation),but if u do,they keep their ranks and so the rank bonus...
So does this mean that SAPs on hold formation r invincible?
Yes, pikes are at their optimum at 8 ranks... But seriously that makes them very easy to flank, you need a lot of them to make it effective.
And yes, you still get the rankbonus in Engage, but since the men runs around and tries to engage the other side, they can't get the help from their friends.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Michael the Great
11-02-2002, 21:54
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
Yes, pikes are at their optimum at 8 ranks... But seriously that makes them very easy to flank, you need a lot of them to make it effective.
And yes, you still get the rankbonus in Engage, but since the men runs around and tries to engage the other side, they can't get the help from their friends.
[/QUOTE]
Nice...
anymapkoku
11-03-2002, 07:49
My theory about ranks is taht it doesn't even matter for all intensive purposes. I often just have a very small front of spears with long ranks, and I don't worry about them being flanked. I guess theoretically the flank disadvantage will be made up for by the rank bonus in front. I guess it could be good either way and my way might not be too smart but so far it I don't think it's been undependable.
Quote Originally posted by Michael the Great:
What do u mean by 4 rank support besides the 4 ranks fighting.
Btw,what r ur favorite defensive units?
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There is one rule that cannot be broken http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gifoleaxes RULE!
[/QUOTE]
I don't know that I've seen a final word on this. I've read both that 'extra ranks' only provide statistical bonuses to the units in the front, and also that they actually allow back row units to engage.
It's my belief that back rows don't actually fight, despite the animations. At least I've written as much in a thread at the official forums that devs posted in and not been corrected. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif
Quote Originally posted by anymapkoku:
My theory about ranks is taht it doesn't even matter for all intensive purposes. I often just have a very small front of spears with long ranks, and I don't worry about them being flanked. I guess theoretically the flank disadvantage will be made up for by the rank bonus in front. I guess it could be good either way and my way might not be too smart but so far it I don't think it's been undependable.[/QUOTE]
I do the same thing -- stretch out my spearmen so that they're 3 or even 2 men deep -- and I've noticed no drop in their effectiveness.
I did some tests with SAP and SP with thinner ranks, however, and they were FAR less effective -- makes sense, since pikemen have double the potential rank bonus.
Katasaki Hirojima
11-03-2002, 14:18
I don't like useing Hold when I have the hill or flanking advanatage. I'v observed that pikemen in hold formation, only a few men are actualy fighting, the rest are just kinda watching off to the side. its really akwad. Also, who says they still don't attack from two rows back?? When you click them to engage alot more spears meet alot more enemy troops. Thats what really counts. Now, when holding against cavalry I do put on hold formation, but rarely. In my Byzantine campagine all I relly got is Spearman, so I use them offensively. I happily give up the rank bonus to get the full impact of the first 50 spears*front two rows* charge onto the enemy over 10-20 with the rank bonus.
Thats my take.
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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.
Michael the Great
11-03-2002, 21:26
Quote Originally posted by Katasaki Hirojima:
I don't like useing Hold when I have the hill or flanking advanatage. I'v observed that pikemen in hold formation, only a few men are actualy fighting, the rest are just kinda watching off to the side. its really akwad. Also, who says they still don't attack from two rows back?? When you click them to engage alot more spears meet alot more enemy troops. Thats what really counts. Now, when holding against cavalry I do put on hold formation, but rarely. In my Byzantine campagine all I relly got is Spearman, so I use them offensively. I happily give up the rank bonus to get the full impact of the first 50 spears*front two rows* charge onto the enemy over 10-20 with the rank bonus.
Thats my take.
[/QUOTE]
Well,in fact,that's why u get +2 defence -2 attack,coz the back ranks help support the first rank(s),and they don't break formation.
Having a height advantage is a VERY GOOD situation to use hold formation,because u r not that vulnerable to being flanked.
I think the tutorial teaches a pretty good lesson on how to use spearmen downhill,coz u can also make them hold position.
Anyway,poleaxes are the offensive counterpart of pikes.They Rule.
2 be convinced,try Janissary Heavy Infantry,against SAP's.
Even when the SAP's are in a deep phalanx and on hold formation,the Janissaries still have the upper hand...
Pikes r best 2 hold a line in the center,with polearms/poleaxes protecting their flank...
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Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.
Quote Originally posted by Michael the Great:
Well,in fact,that's why u get +2 defence -2 attack,coz the back ranks help support the first rank(s),and they don't break formation.
Having a height advantage is a VERY GOOD situation to use hold formation,because u r not that vulnerable to being flanked.
I think the tutorial teaches a pretty good lesson on how to use spearmen downhill,coz u can also make them hold position.
Anyway,poleaxes are the offensive counterpart of pikes.They Rule.
2 be convinced,try Janissary Heavy Infantry,against SAP's.
Even when the SAP's are in a deep phalanx and on hold formation,the Janissaries still have the upper hand...
Pikes r best 2 hold a line in the center,with polearms/poleaxes protecting their flank...
[/QUOTE]
Hrm, I think equal valor SAP beat JHI with relative ease (say 20 or so deaths). Not 100% certain, but that's what I'm recalling.
Quote Originally posted by Dorkus:
I don't know that I've seen a final word on this. I've read both that 'extra ranks' only provide statistical bonuses to the units in the front, and also that they actually allow back row units to engage.
It's my belief that back rows don't actually fight, despite the animations. At least I've written as much in a thread at the official forums that devs posted in and not been corrected. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif[/QUOTE]
I tried to ask directly in that thread if the animation showed the supporting ranks. But I never got an answer, Gil must have moved on. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
But even if the animations show the supporting ranks, then there is something wrong. It says that Spears can have two ranks supporting and pikes four. But the animations only shows two ranks actually moving for spears, which would make the first rank fighting and the second rank supporting... That does not fit the description of two ranks supporting does it now?
Also I think there was a big discussion back in the demo-days where people were a bit puzzled about the fighting ranks and the supporting ranks, back then it was finally settled when we seemed to get confirmation on the supporting ranks do not get any animation. I remember several people yelling/screaming: "They have got a bonus to fighting and supporting ranks as well???"
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Michael the Great
11-04-2002, 17:22
Kraxis,
First of all,I would like 2 know if the fighting ranks are really fighting,being shielded by the first,or do they only add +1 attack and +2 defence to the first rank?
I mean,can u explain me what is the difference between FIGHTING and SUPPORTING ranks...?
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Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.
It is a hard thing to understand Michael... I'm not sure right now.
But as far as I have understood spears have two ranks fighting the same target and two supporting. The fighting men are normal combatants, while the number of ranks, up to two, behind the second rank adds ½ attack, 1 defence and 1 charge each. This comes from the notion that spearmen such as Hoplites actually fought more like rugby matches, pushing around. To push well you have to have many ranks. The several fighting ranks indicates that spears can outreach the distance the man in front fills, so the spear can reach the target. That is why pikes have four fighting ranks.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
anymapkoku
11-05-2002, 08:10
I think the most important thing to worry about is how the overall unit performs. Deep ranks or shallow ranks probably won't make much of a difference and no matter what the bonus you should usually always keep spearmen on hold formation anyway. If you want to decide how useful a unit is, go by it's attack and defense,unit size, and cost.
Michael the Great
11-05-2002, 16:37
Quote Originally posted by anymapkoku:
I think the most important thing to worry about is how the overall unit performs. Deep ranks or shallow ranks probably won't make much of a difference and no matter what the bonus you should usually always keep spearmen on hold formation anyway. If you want to decide how useful a unit is, go by it's attack and defense,unit size, and cost.[/QUOTE]
It IS important,a shallow line is very easy 2 break by a strong charge.
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