View Full Version : my favorite muslim unit: nizari
A.Saturnus
10-30-2002, 21:15
I just noticed that there hasn`t been any thread about nizari exclusively, so this had to change:
they are effective, fast, have good moral and are cheap in supply.
Often enough it happened to me that I lost track of them during a battle and noticed afterwards that they lost half their unit but killed 100 and captured 50 or so. (One time a nizari unit lost 25 men but took out 300 enemies!)
The only problem is: you need a grand mosque to build them and you can only have one!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
It should be possible to build them in other provinces too, if you have the grand mosque.
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In the name of electricity: CHARGE!!!
Niccolomachiavelli
10-30-2002, 21:20
That would make the muslims a wee bit too powerful.
As far as nizaris go, I'm always wary of archer/inf combos. I prefer Ghazi inf if you want high morale shock troops.
A.Saturnus
10-30-2002, 21:22
Nizari slaughter ghazi, I tested it. But of course, Ghazi are so much easier to build.
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In the name of electricity: CHARGE!!!
Soapyfrog
10-30-2002, 21:39
Hybrid archers rock! They are usually fair shock infantry, can soften the enemy as they advance, and are generally fast moving.
Nizaris are lots of fun. Not sure if I'd pick them over Arbalesters, but they're great hybrids. I had a battle once where 360 Nizaris (3 groups of 120, huge unit size) took on something like 1800 fanatics/peasants (rebel uprising) and left the battlefield with 400+ kills *each* (in woods even, on the Russian Steppe). I forget how many they lost, but it wasn't many.
[This message has been edited by hoof (edited 10-30-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Soapyfrog:
Hybrid archers rock! They are usually fair shock infantry, can soften the enemy as they advance, and are generally fast moving.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely, The turks excel in this department. That it why I play them almost exclusively now...janissaries can be amazing.
anymapkoku
10-31-2002, 06:45
Nizari's and hgazi and jan inf all are terrible. Why waste your time on them?
I like hybrid Units too !
By the time the enemy is inside charge range his unit is already decimated and with supperior numbers even the weaker hybrids can defeat them. I especially love Almugavars http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif ... their Javelins hit hard piercing through Armour. They are fast and have Spears to fight their main enemy ... Cavalry ! They are a bit expensive but they are worth their cost, especially when they have some Longbows to back them up.
Goodridge
10-31-2002, 08:04
I'm actually having some trouble with the hybrids. I have found that Ottomans get slaughtered too easily, even by militia. Turcomans and Futawas have also given me the same trouble. I would take any of them over Archers or Desert Archers since they can put up a bit of a fight at least.
Which of those three do y'all prefer, and how do you use them? I have been trying them in a variety of areas, but for front line troops, I am sticking with Saracens.
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Kyle Goodridge
Soapyfrog
10-31-2002, 08:27
Maybe in your tiny, constrained, MP world, anymapkoku.
Versatility is a little more important in SP.
anymapkoku
10-31-2002, 10:33
If versatility is so important, then why does the computer die so easily when you use all of the same unit?
Shouldn't good players decide what's important for winning and what isn't?
Anymap,
Think of it this way. You talk in this manner to your real life friends. And then they don't like you and ignore you. And you wonder why?
[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-31-2002).]
anymapkoku
10-31-2002, 11:49
I don't have a problem with people online or offline. I guess I can come across poorly on this forum but I don't really care as it's all a game and I don't take game related stuff personally.
It's not the attitude towards the game that I'm talking about, which is by the way a healthy attitude to take, since indeed it is only a game, and one should not take it seriously. It's a communication thing - this is not a game here, here you have real people typing messages, and you're communicating with real people on these boards. The comments are directed to people, not to the data streams. That should be taken seriously, and has a fair share of equivalency with a real life.
anymapkoku
10-31-2002, 14:41
This is Total War, not Chathouse.com.
Anyone that wants an opinion needs to back it up in game.
[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 10-31-2002).]
Not really. This is a Total War **Forum**. Do I need to emphasize the "forum" part of it?
I thought that you can differentiate between the game and reality?
Quote Originally posted by anymapkoku:
Nizari's and hgazi and jan inf all are terrible. Why waste your time on them?[/QUOTE]
I beg to differ.
It's now blatantly obvious to all of us that the Muslim factions generally have more killable troops than the Catholic factions.
HOWEVER it is also very obvious that the Janissay Heavy Infantry, Ghazi, Nizaris, Almohad Urban Militia, Naptha throwers, Janissary Infantry, are very good units when used CORRECTLY. In fact almost all the Muslim units though generally weaker then Catholic ones are able to defeat more then their own weight in florins times over. With the exeception of Janissary heavy Infantry all the others are at a reasonable price.
Nowhere is this more true than in Single Player, where you can ravage the AI with much ease as any 1 of the Muslim factions.
In MP, it's a different ball game. Nevertheless, I have witnessed expert players using the units I already mentioned to devastating effect. Consider this about the Nizaris, they have the highest attack, and almost invulnerable morale. Unless you REALLY put them in harm's way they will usually fight down to the last 2 or last man.
Just click the below link and tell us which unit is right on top of the list with melee bonus:
http://www.totalwarassembly.com/waracademy.cfm?Action=ViewList&Delim=MeleeBonus
It's the Nizari, they have the best mellee of any unit. trouble is that they are wearing robes in true Saracen manner. They have NO armor protection unlike knights which have armor. So the nizari is going to get killed a lot faster and thus has to be used carefully in conjuction with other troops.
As the evidence proves any suggestion of these units being a waste of time, is largely unfounded, and is the exception rather than the rule.
SeljukSinan
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Clan Seljuk
[This message has been edited by SeljukSinan (edited 10-31-2002).]
Orda Khan
11-01-2002, 06:50
I used Nizari units in MP.
They worked very nicely for me thanks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
......Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
anymapkoku
11-01-2002, 07:53
It's a forum about the game "Total War." If you want to participate in a discussion about a game called "Total War" you've got to be able to handle some competition.
anymapkoku
11-01-2002, 08:05
I looked at the list and the Nizari have 6 + -4 defense * 60 men. That's 2 melee * 60 men at a cost of 425 I think.
Cheaper Hospitaller foot kngihts, right off the top of my head, on the same list cost less and have 5 attack + 5 defense * 40 men. That's 10 melee * 40 men.
If we assume that the Nizari inflicts 50% casualties(20/40) on the HFK's before engaging, the HFK's still have 10 melee * 20 men, vs 2 melee * 60 Nizaris.
The HFK clearly win even considering the nizaris killed half of them before the fight. Which will never happen.
And HFK's aren't even that great of a unit.
anymapkoku
11-01-2002, 08:09
You admit that the muslim units aren't as good as euro units but on the other hand claim that they are good. That's a contradiction in my opinion. Good compared to what? To peasants? Or good compared to european units which you just said are better?
I'll second that SeljukSinan. I view the muslim factions like an "advanced users only" game. The mistakes a commander makes with them is unforgiving, but put in the correct position during a battle, the rewards are greater and more effective. My initial problem when I first started using them was I was using my traditional catholic tactics. Once I developed new tactics that better reflect the capabilities of this hybrid units, I found my attacks to be twice as effective as the former. You could say I'm a convert, and when I sum the game up, I have the most fun with these guys. (Turks mainly)
I was wondering, what are your tactics with these type of units, bc i kind of struggle with them,
my biggest problem is that there is no option to make them fight meele, instead of firing their arrows, until they r out of ammo. And that takes a long time.
I wish there was an option to choose range attack, or just hand to hand combat for these types of units.
favedave
11-01-2002, 08:35
Murad,
to make them attack hand to hand, you select the unit, then hold down the alt key as you select the target.
Holding down the alt key makes any missile unit attack melee ratehr than with missile fire.
anymap, isnt it kinda dumb to compare nazari vs hosp foots?
would i rather have a nazari unit over arbs? not usually
would i like having a ranged unit that can hit flanks or rear with good "shock" value? probably
the nazari is a good utility unit. in the arbs and spears mp world they dont have much use...but the fact that they are ranged and have great attack makes them ideal for many situations (like flanking hosp foots...who wear heavy armour, while defending a desert province...)
oh and at same cost i'll take about any spear unit over hosp foots...if i was to make an unfair comparison of value http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
muslim factions only suck in mp, with saracin infantry or aum being the best front line units, but they are fairly cheap and u can boost the valour higher on them than you can with say... order of foots, italian inf or chivs. in single player..being muslim u fight alot in the desert/arid regions making those light infantry better than your christians armoured counterparts.
Rosacrux
11-01-2002, 18:03
Initially I tried out the Egyptians (in my 1st-2nd campaign) but gave up on them both very early in the game. After having been fed up with Byzantines and the various Catholics, I did try them out last night (couldn't sleep) just to give the guys a chance.
You know what? I agree with the fact that muslim troops need more attention and are more difficult to deploy effectively. AUMs excluded, that is. But I am playing the more "light" Egyptians, not the Elmos. And remember kids, this is a bleeding strategy game and one has to use his head (actually... what's inside his head) a bit, instead of just lining up spears to win the battles hands down.
I am having great fun with my mamluks and desert archers and them camels are pretty nifty too. When I go further into the campaign, I'll tell you how I value Nizaris.
Orda Khan
11-01-2002, 20:23
Quote Originally posted by Sabotai:
anymap, isnt it kinda dumb to compare nazari vs hosp foots?
would i rather have a nazari unit over arbs? not usually
would i like having a ranged unit that can hit flanks or rear with good "shock" value? probably
the nazari is a good utility unit. in the arbs and spears mp world they dont have much use...but the fact that they are ranged and have great attack makes them ideal for many situations (like flanking hosp foots...who wear heavy armour, while defending a desert province...)
oh and at same cost i'll take about any spear unit over hosp foots...if i was to make an unfair comparison of value http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
muslim factions only suck in mp, with saracin infantry or aum being the best front line units, but they are fairly cheap and u can boost the valour higher on them than you can with say... order of foots, italian inf or chivs. in single player..being muslim u fight alot in the desert/arid regions making those light infantry better than your christians armoured counterparts.
[/QUOTE]
Arbs and spears in MP......sounds a bit like guns and ashi. So this phenomenon still exists in MP? I don't play often and the times that I have I've taken a balanced Egyptian army. I was wondering whether we would find MP faction imbalance due to armour versus silk, strange how this was not the case in the real world
......Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
Furtrapper
11-01-2002, 22:00
Very interesting post, and very relevant to my current, Turkish campaign. I find that I do need different tactics.
I find they make amazing defensive armies but have real difficulty deploying them offensively unless the numbers are really on my side. I try to encourage Catholic opponents to attack my territories, where I line up the very effective, high morale missle/versatile troops backed up with saracen infantry, cavalry in reserve (except sometimes a Khwarazmian unit as shock troops).
I then let the catholics come to me, pepper them with arrows continually and have the saracens charge the centre of their army while the missiles concentrate on enemy general, if poss. When they rout, I mop up with fast Ottomans/futuwwas and very cheap ottoman sipahi. Works very well.
Offensive is much more difficult. For my southern territories, I have resorted to desert archer/camel/saracen armies. On defense, I destroyed an army of Spanish invaders (1,500 losses for an amazing 50 losses) but fought to standstill with my armies routing spectacularly when I tried to attack (too many chivalric sergeants..). Tactical help would be great!
I haven't tried much offensive play against Catholic armies as yet, but my few experiences have been pyrrhic victories or bloody stalemates (I retreat).
I sense that the way to play it is to try to wear them out using my superior speed and to shock them then wait for my higher morale troops to prevail. Not quite working yet...
Overall, though, very much like playing the turks. Very interesting units, really good starting position although I find that Catholic factions gang up on me so income has to come from territories rather than trade...
Since the Muslim factions tend to be so much lighter, you really have to depend a lot on missile troops. Horse archers for the Turks, lots of Arbalesters for the Egyptians, as well as medium and light cavalry.
If the enemy is in a strong position on a hill, use your projectile troops and decoy cavalry charges to try and lure them off. It may not always work, but with the AI so stupid it will often think your decoy movement is outflanking it and will leave the hill (and sometimes flee the field!). You can often get the enemy's best units, its heavy knights, to charge stupidly forward like this, or a spear unit or two.
Saracens will be the base troops for Egyptians and Turks, and are the exact twin of Chivalric Sergeants. Use them the same way, as your swing pivot. They will smash spearmen and militia units, which if you move quickly will be the majority of the Catholic enemy.
anymapkoku
11-02-2002, 04:15
You're right Sabotai, beating the computer obviously requires more thought process than a human being who knows the ins and outs of the game. If Nizari's can sneak up behind the computer controlled units and flank them to death like it never knew they were there, then obviously Nizari's are great units!
Come to think of it, if you want a challenge, why even play muslim factions at all? Nizari's are much better than european units, anyone who wants a challenge should be europe!
Perec_Dojo
11-02-2002, 05:19
Anymap, why do you even bother?
Oda Matsu
11-02-2002, 05:29
It's like the Mitsubishi Zero - swift. maneuverable, deadly in the hands of a skilled opponent, but as durable as a balsa wood kite.
Thus, the skill issue. That is - how adept are you at tying up enemy units, setting up flank attacks, timing them (so that your nizari flankers can strike, break the enemy, and escape before being pinned in turn)?
If you have a huge army of varangian guard, it's not so important. March to melee, engage, your men are armored well and have high morale so if you flub and get flanked, you can recover. Those Muslim units have to be danced around though, yes?
thanks Favedave
i didn't know about that option
anymap,
the comp is not very smart, even on expert... but,
why would you have to be a dummy to get flanked by nazaris? since this game is all about getting the flank, at a certain point almost all troops will be in combat. i would rather have nazaris to try to flank than to have arbs shooting into lines of both me and my enemy.
by the time a nazari would be used in melee most of your good troops would be engaged leaving few troops to aid who i was flanking...or i could run down your very slow pav arbs.
true, arbs will destroy u in a standoff but you can meet lines quickly and focus fire your nazaris over the line to his back units. they run out of ammo quick, so u now have, say... 3 melee units with great attack in a melee situation to his army with arbs. i like my chances.
its all about your strategy, if your trying to turn it into a ranged war, then your better off with arbs, they are brutal in standoffs and drawn out fights. if your going aggressive and quickly meet lines then nazaris are not a bad choice if you take ranged. they empty their ammo fast, shoot ok over the line and are very capable fighters.
just do what you like, its a game. have fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
anymapkoku
11-02-2002, 07:12
Because it's mostly luck if you're able to "flank" a unit with Nizari's. But since the comp is just dumb I guess it lets you do that a lot. What will you do if the developers catch on and programm the computer to alt face your nizari when it's coming? Right now you're just exploiting a poorly written ai system.
[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-02-2002).]
i play multiplayer (use to play alot, now waiting for patch), and half the games you end up allied with guys who either cant macro units and move them in lines or guys who havent figured out that t is to talk.
so i beg to differ about the challenge lurking in the collection of online players. some are great, most are not. and 1 vs 1's are rare anyway. most people play 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 where its 50% luck who wins it
i dont even think you have an argument really, your just being a board troll
and you sound foolish trying to say you couldnt be flanked by nazaris, you must be undefeated..since its nearly impossible to flank you. if i was to flank you with cavalry or swords it wouldnt be luck..but if its a nazari it must be some bug in the code. plz clarify why its so impossible to be flanked by nazaris since when the ammo runs out they are pretty much ghazi infantry {and plz dont compare ghazi infantry to hosp foots, since i doubt it will make anymore sense than your previous argument}
and your thoughts on turning after being flanked by nazaris is pointless..if you think about it they have to turn from the spears they were fighting to face the nazaris..and that would giving their backs to the spears and taking casualties while turning :O and that would be bad, wouldnt it.
flanking is not sneaking up on someone as you seem to imply. if my units are matched man for man with yours and you have arbs and i have nazari, you will get flanked by nazaris and unless a unit on my lines breaks or u manage to pull enough men from melee to counter 180 nazaris hitting your flanks..your fuct
anymapkoku
11-02-2002, 14:37
Who says I have arbs?
We can arrange a 1vs1 on your choice of map/florins and loser breaks their cd.
Ok i concede your point that Nizaris beat people that can't even chat in game. I still won't be using them unless it's against the ever challenging comp where I'll obviously need all the nizaris I can get my hands on.
anymapkoku
11-02-2002, 14:44
I played this guy who used nizaris. He was actually pretty decent too. SA Toastman was his name I think. I just sat there and let his nizaris shoot me until they were out of ammo, then he rushed me. I just crushed him on my right side and had my spears on hold in middle, It wasn't even a close fight and his lack of decent melee units and cost him the battle. If those nizaris had been something else he would probably would have won.
I used Nizaris in SP. While I managed to get good number of kills with them, I still think a combo of muwahid and saracen plus a few cav to run down fleeing enemies are better for the Egyptians.
I think ghazi are better than nizaris in mp. Arrows don't really kill anything at all in mp and ghazi are only slightly weaker but are much cheaper. Try them instead. Some people here did tests against the common spear units used in mp games and even longbowmen scored only around 30 kills at the most using up all of their ammo.
Quote Originally posted by andrewt:
Some people here did tests against the common spear units used in mp games and even longbowmen scored only around 30 kills at the most using up all of their ammo.[/QUOTE]
Not really, it was some 60 SAPs, and around 85 Pikemen. But that was a standstill situation, and how often does that happen??? Not often, right?
About Nizaris, well I tried them in MP and I'm certainly not a brilliant MPer. I know what I need to do, but I'm often a little overwhelmed in MP. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
What happened was I let the Nizaris fire in the melee, dangerous at it actually hurt me more than my opponent. Then he flanked with a two Feudal MAA on my left and one of my right. Great I thought, I'm toast. And true they ripped into my Saracens, but then I attacked the vulnerable flank of the MAA with my three Nizaris... and the MAA were simply thrown from the field. Granted I lost good and well half of my Nizaris. Eventually I lost the battle due to better control by my opponent, not due to the Nizaris.
So it seems they are great flankprotectors due to their ability to wage a ranged battle.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
youssof_Toda
11-02-2002, 18:18
Quote Originally posted by anymapkoku:
I just crushed him on my right side and had my spears on hold in middle, It wasn't even a close fight and his lack of decent melee units and cost him the battle. If those nizaris had been something else he would probably would have won.[/QUOTE]
I think the main reason for you crushing him were ur unmatched and superiour battleskills http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif.
Quote Originally posted by andrewt:
I used Nizaris in SP. While I managed to get good number of kills with them, I still think a combo of muwahid and saracen plus a few cav to run down fleeing enemies are better for the Egyptians.
I think ghazi are better than nizaris in mp. Arrows don't really kill anything at all in mp and ghazi are only slightly weaker but are much cheaper. Try them instead. Some people here did tests against the common spear units used in mp games and even longbowmen scored only around 30 kills at the most using up all of their ammo.[/QUOTE]
if i was gonna take shock troops i wouldnt take nazari either. there are better choices than ghazi as well, all i'm saying is that if your going for an aggressive strategy and IF you take ranged..the nazari isnt a bad choice. with 3 nazaris behind your line focus firing at his rear you can decimate a unit and then commit them to an ideal situation in melee.
every unit in this game has a use {although ballista and trebs suck} and if you only wanna do what gives you the best chance to win, then line up some high valour fmaa or aum in 1 deep lines and walk into him. since 6 units will tie up his whole army, it wont matter what the rest of your units are {even the terrible, awful and useless nazari}
i like to have fun..missle armies and the joys of naptha http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif i'd rather lose and have a blast playing than simply roll over somebody.
if you like a unit why not use it? its a game, i bought it to be entertained..spears, alans and arbs gets boring after a while.
i'm out, shame this thread turned rotton :O
imo its a nice little unit though
I always play muslims, mainly Egyptians (SP), the secret with all muslim army's are the superior morale, those christians will run if they think they might be beaten, but a unit of Saracen Infrantry or Nubian Spearmen stand to the bitter end (atleast if they are combined with a decent general).
Then I use Saharan Cavalery (I prefer low-tech games, so I play Early Campaign and usually starts a new game after a while) to charge them and they flee... where is the challange in fighting christians? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
anymapkoku
11-03-2002, 07:16
What Sabotai? If you only want to win don't use Nizaris and use other units instead to roll over the enemy? Now you're admitting that they are bad right after you said they are good?
[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-03-2002).]
anymapkoku
11-03-2002, 07:19
lineing up 6 fmma and aums and throwing them at the enemy is about the worst strategy you can use. Don't take this personally but you shouldn't judge the game (or strategies) by those newbie games you've been winning. The ones against people who can't even chat? I really don't mean that in a bad way I don't know any other way to say it.
lol your an idiot, play amp and then say fmaa lines suck.
god your a board troll
anymapkoku
11-03-2002, 08:05
He was probably toying around with you for fun.
lol, thats what he always does. only last time i was online he was using byz inf instead of fmaa. i did it with aum and it was awsome.
works great and is a pain in the arse to defend against
and last time i checked not playing for a week because i'm sick of crashing, discons etc hasnt turned me into a newb..i think :O
when the patch comes all will be well, and maybe i'll see you around http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
anymapkoku
11-03-2002, 09:01
Byzantines are absolutely terrible. No one good should die to them.
anymapkoku
11-03-2002, 09:07
I never said fmaa lines were bad, for the record. I was referring to getting 6 of them and throwing them at the the front of the enemy's line.
anymapkoku
11-03-2002, 09:11
And yes I've played against/teamed with amp before although not in 1vs1.
I definitely tend toward the anti-nizari position. In my mind, they (and most other hybrids, for that matter) are just too vulnerable AND expensive to be worthwhile.
Sure they kill stuff pretty fast when you charge, but as others have noted, there are a variety of other troops that are better as shock. And their arrow fire just doesn't kill enough to make much of a difference. Though if they were armed with arbs.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
PS This is somewhat unrelated, but longjohn recently posted that the duration of the morale penalty from missile fire is negatively correlated with the unit's rate of fire. This means that units armed with shortbows not only kill far fewer enemies, but also impose a morale penalty for a much shorter duration!!!
PPS Kraxis, are you certain about the archers vs. SAP at standstill? Do you have a link to the post, perchance? I can see archers taking out 50 or so regular pikemen, but SAP actually have a decent (but not great) armor value of 4.
actually i just got done playing a couple hours of mp. played with amp a few times and he was using byz and tons of byz inf, and it didnt appear they sucked...worked really well actually, i had mixed results with fmaa but in most cases it went ok, just gotta get use to moving around those long lines.
and i fought with nazaris once, marched my saracin infantry up to enemy line and stopped and kept spears in rear on flanks. focused all my nazari fire on his general from behind my lines while his foots fought my standing saracins. kept shooting enemy general as he was moving him around and got him down to 1 guy left and rushed my cav on his left flank..pulled my nazaris over to flood the left side but he had too many spears, my line broke down and it all went to poop.
my nazaris had around 55 kills each and they were barely used in melee and considering enemy was all infantry/spears 1 cav (general) to my 8 infantry/spears 5 cav and 3 nazari it didnt go too bad.
my name on gamespy is shabbyronin, if you see me say hi so we can get a game going..that is if i can contain my pure awe and wonder at being able to play someone as good as you http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Quote Originally posted by Dorkus:
PS This is somewhat unrelated, but longjohn recently posted that the duration of the morale penalty from missile fire is negatively correlated with the unit's rate of fire. This means that units armed with shortbows not only kill far fewer enemies, but also impose a morale penalty for a much shorter duration!!!
PPS Kraxis, are you certain about the archers vs. SAP at standstill? Do you have a link to the post, perchance? I can see archers taking out 50 or so regular pikemen, but SAP actually have a decent (but not great) armor value of 4. [/QUOTE]
First off, there is a Moralepenalty of -2 to the target should any of the guys die. This lasts 8 seconds, enough time for another volley to hit... While the Arbs penalty is greater it too only lasts 8 seconds, not enough time to hit with another volley. So I believe you misunderstood longjohn a little bit. Could you give a link?
I was the one who did the tests of Archers against SAP, but granted I gave them 3 armours getting them to 7, and I controlled the SAPs so I let the ranged units expend all arrows. Archers averaged at 30 and Jannisary Archers at 32. Unfortunately I can't remember the thread's name, but it had something to do with a rant about Longbows effectiveness and that Jannisary Infantry were just as good as ranged units. I proved that wrong.
You are right about the Pikemen, they are perfect targets for arrows at 1 armour. Check my results in the unitcost thread on the main page... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
BAH! It didn't show my post for a long time... So I posted again... BAH!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 11-03-2002).]
I like using hybrids and missile cavs in SP. It's really annoying though that you should only do it once you are already way too powerful. It's hard getting anything going at first with these guys. I usually already control trading and have conquered 2-3 factions and some rebel territories before I have enough money to make these guys worthwhile. I had fun with Mamluk Horse Archers as Egyptians though I got most of my kills charging exposed flanks, missile troops and fleeing troops.
anymapkoku
11-04-2002, 08:38
1) I didn't say Byz infantry were bad.
2) You lost
3) Sure byz infantry are good, but the faction as a whole is complete garbage so why are you complaining about their one and only unit?
4) Amp was most likely better than you and that's why he won. There's just no reason that 2 palyers of equal skill will see the byz player winning.
5) Was probably a team game and allies interfered.
anymapkoku
11-04-2002, 08:46
And Shabby I think I watched the replay of the one game we were in together. Your nizaris did absolutely horrible and you lost.
it wasnt against amp, also i'v never played with you..and if i did and forgot, i doubt it was one of the rare times i'v used nazaris in mp
1) u said byz was awful and that anybody who loses to byz is not a good player
2) i lost..i also lose using arbs and i think i'v lost using cav and now that i think about it...i'v lost using spears too (i'm ashamed)
3) u didnt hear a complaint about byz inf from me
4) amp is better than me, i'v also seen him and others use byz without any help and do good
5) the game i mentioned using nazaris in was 1 vs 1 and it was the enemies 15 infantry (not byz) to my 8 that lost it more than the nazaris. i'v been using them today behind my arbs and saracins when i take missle armies and they work fine, or i take turks and switch arbs for x bows and nazari for jan inf.
i would love to see that replay u say u have of me being crushed using nazaris,cuz i dont think i'v ever seen u around on gamespy.. or you play in the daytime mostly
anymapkoku
11-04-2002, 13:45
It's a well known fact that byzantines are at a disadvantage . You said byz infantry just roll right over everything and it's not fun to do that. YOu obviously meant to complain that there is something wrong with that. If not then I don't know why you even brought it up.
Why does it even matter waht he used? How does that prove that nizaris are any good? He used a bad army and won and that doesn't make you or nizaris look very good.
The replay was a 3vs3 that I can send you if you want it. It was me, buqi and someone else vs you troglodyte and takuan on agincourt/3500 per player(i think). You were in middle and i was on the left side(I defended.
I don't mean to say that I am judging your skill based on that game. I realize it was just a team game with random allies.
[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-04-2002).]
[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-04-2002).]
love to see it, my email is cleveland_stoner@yahoo.com
i'v been using byz alot tonight, taking 8 byz inf, a few spears and cav. works good.
if you'd notice...i never complained about byz inf or fmaa, i said that using them gives you a good chance to win..and if you cant stand losing for the sake of experiment then i recommend you dont ever use the 4/5th of the total units that arent considered leet.
i use nazaris/jan inf/ other hybrids alot WHEN i take missles (which isnt often)
i usually take 4 chiv sgts, 3 feudal sgts, 4 fmaa and 5 alans/mounted sgts
if i take ranged, i take 3 arbs, 2/3 hybrid ranged, 4 saracin inf, 4 spears and some cavs. but i only use ranged army in 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4
with 8 good infantry u can make just about anything work
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