Gastrophetes

[Celtic_Punk]

why are there no greek belly shooters? i just realized this tonight that the greeks invented the first crossbow... im not sure if its during the EB timeframe... could someone who knows this elaborate?

[Dutchhoplite]

It looks cumbersome and too unwieldy to be used in the field. Probrably mainly used in sieges. Still pretty ~:cool:

7 minutes into the first video and the beginning of the next:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=bcq43IjbVTI&feature=related

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=uRJy1jRXIFg&feature=user

[Celtic_Punk]

I reckon it wouldnt be that hard to do it... animations would be a problem obviously, but you wouldn't have to make it a siege weapon so you could put it on the walls. maybe an idea for EBII?

it would also balance things historically since greeks have a disadvantage on the walls with the hoplites, seeing as you can reach much further than bowshot with a gastrophetes and it has well over twice as much power than a normal bow

[Maion Maroneios]

XGM uhas Gastraphetes, IIRC. The problem, I think, is that it's use wouldn't be that widespread and often as to be included in EB.

Maion

[Zarax]

XGM has gastraphetes, however they are made to be in quite limited numbers as they are quite powerful.
A potential syracusean faction should be entitled to use these guys as they originated there.

Also, for the rarer units kestros slingers could be a possibility.

[Maion Maroneios]

they are quite powerful
Say that again! I remember, the time I was playing XGM, I once played with a full stack of those guys against a full stack of the best legionaries of Rome. Guess what? I didnt lose a single man, while I obliterated the whole Roman army! They didnt even get close to my guys:laugh4:

Maion

[Celtic_Punk]

thats why i want them ~:(

[Foot]

Its very unlikely that Gastrophetes will appear ingame. Their only reported use in classical literary was several decades before our time and there is no indication that they were anything but a specialist weapon with little military significance. Unit slots are slim as it is and to spend them on a specialist unit such as the Gastrophetes, who would have limited recruitment potential, would be a rare choice. That is not to say they never will be in, but they had been discussed in reference to EBI, but the decision was not to include them.

Foot

[Zarax]

I tend to agree with Foot, way too exotic for EB1 as unit spaces are better allocated somewhere else.
XGM gets them because of its specialization on hellenistic powers at (the sometimes unfortunate) expense of others.

EDIT: Implementation in itself for a submod is not so hard, just use the crossbowman skeleton from BI and you're set.

[Celtic_Punk]

hmmm foot, the point of the Gastrophetes was that it WAS NOT a specialist weapon. it only required a small crash course and you could effectively field it. it was an alternative if skilled bowmen were scarce. im not arguing they were widely used. but you are playing up the complexity of the weapon.

[Cimon]

hmmm foot, the point of the Gastrophetes was that it WAS NOT a specialist weapon. it only required a small crash course and you could effectively field it. it was an alternative if skilled bowmen were scarce. im not arguing they were widely used. but you are playing up the complexity of the weapon.

Not to speak for Foot (please correct me if I misinterpreted here, Foot), but I don't think he's saying the item itself was complex, so much as not that many soldiers used them. In which case, it doesn't make much sense to have them in the game.

[satalexton]

it would be interesting to see how they fare against the romans, seeing how the rome vs han is constantly debated/argued to hell...

[Cimon]

it would be interesting to see how they fare against the romans, seeing how the rome vs han is constantly debated/argued to hell...

Different weapons, though, I'm afraid. My understanding is that the Han crossbow was a hand-held, more "modern" crossbow, such as the type we generally think of existing in the European Middle Ages. The ancient Greek version was a larger, more siege-oriented one that would be quite bulky and unwieldy in a pitched battle. Consequently, I would assume that the gastrophete probably packed a much bigger punch, but also caused the user to be very vulnerable, which is why they were more likely used in sieges.

This is just a general sense of it, so if someone knows otherwise and/or has more specificity, please say so; mine is a very minimal knowledge, so a more studied "expert" would be most welcome.

[russia almighty]

The gastrophete seems like an M249 or something. Sure, it can be used in a mobile fashion, but it works best when you can rest it on something and fire away.

[Celtic_Punk]

if used in the field it required a wooden stand. you needed to rest it on something inorder to fire, due to its incredible length. (WATCH THAT VIDEO THAT WAS POSTED IT GIVES YOU A GOOD IDEA)

[Foot]

What? Its called a belly bow for a reason. It was pushed against the stomach for support when firing, but the only situation that it was used, iirc, was in a single siege. There is no other reference to it. Its something that CA would add, but it lacks the evidence required to include it in EB. Not because it didn't exist (it did), but because the only reference to it was outside our timeframe, in one particular situation, and was never mentioned since. There's no "hmmm foot, the point of the Gastrophetes was that it WAS NOT a specialist weapon.", limitations mean that it is far down the food chain and really is not a viable unit for EBI or EBII.

Foot

[Aemilius Paulus]

XGM has gastraphetes

Please excuse me for my ignorance, but what's XMG?

[Zarax]

It's the Extended Greek mod, look in my sig.

[AlexanderSextus]

so who invented the crossbow first? The Chinese with the Lian Nu or the Greeks with the Gastrophetes????

[Foot]

They were separate inventions. Just as the eye developed twice in nature the crossbow developed twice in history.

Foot

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The Gastrophetes is a torsion weapon, so it isn't technically a "crossbow".

[Celtic_Punk]

actually no it isnt. It uses the same principals as a bow.watch those movies at the top. there is no winding up