Order Foot Soilders Overpowerd

[Cadamer]

Ok, I've been playing STW and MI for over 6 months now. And well, I have learned many things, like swords beat spears, spears beat cav, cav beats sword, and archers just hurt peoples. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif That being said, I was just playing a game of MTW and saw that my chiv men at arms (swords) lost BADLY against Order Foot Soliders (spears). It pist me off, but chiv men at arms have 60 men in 1 units, while order soliders have 100 in 1 unit. So i was outnumberd by 40 men . I then tested out byzntine infantry again them in a cpu game. (1 unit of 100 byz inf vs 1 units of 100 order soliders.) And well, the outcome was , that they were evenly matched, with the order soliders being a bit better . (i lost). I am still pist off.Swords are supposed to own spears. Maybe CA forgot how to make total war games. Either way, IMO now that swords are useless ( everyone always builds order foot soliders) that theres no real point in having them.Now please correct me if I am wrong in this post, but dont bother saying that i am lying about order foots being better than sword becuase i paly tested it about 3 times.

[muffinman14]

yes order foot soldiers are overpowered in MTW

[anymapkoku]

Actually Fmaa(swords) and Order(spears) are pretty even. You were saying about balance?

[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-02-2002).]

[Cardinal]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I could only get order foot soliders when I built a crusade, so as such they are not a general unit, but the zealous elite of spearmen.

Secondly, are not Byz. Inf. a fairly unmodern unit (you historians out there correct me there if I am wrong), and hence outdated and easily beaten by more modern units?

[tootee]

I think given that OrderFootSoldier cost $350 at V0, you can get a ByzantineInf of V1A1 for $355. I dont see how OrderFootSoldier can beat this ByzantineInf in anyway in a simple H2H. Well that's in MP. In SP, what is more importance is that one max out the unit's strength as much as possible. Given that, a OrderFootSoldier at V4W3A3 is not overpowering the ByzantineInf at V4W3A3 IMO.

------------------
tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
------------------

[Papa Bear!]

yes yes and yes.

Byz inf are a much lower level unit than order foot, (and cheaper), so the fact that byz inf match up equally with order foot kinda nullifies your arguement.

There has been a fair amount of debate about the 60 vs 100 unit sizes, and whether or not they really ad up fairly, but I think you're not testing all that reasonably.

Order foot are among the best spear units, (only outdone by jan heavies, and italian light?), I'd think anyway.

True their uber, but their still a spear unit. The thing with swordsmen is that their more powerful as individuals. Without their rank bonuses, and in their proper formation, spearmen suffer immensely. (thus in the woods for example)

Or when charged while not in proper formation, or engaged from the flanks etc.

While the swordsmen don't rely on such bonuses for their strength, and pound for pound, I think you'll find swordsmen rather competitive. (compare like priced units and I think you'll find the swords winning out, if not then try to work in the tactical abilities of the swordsmen... more vulnerable to cavalry, but more able to move around a spear units flank, (its alot easier for a unit that doesn't have to hold formation to maneuver, as it can engage at any moment of its movement, even when spread out, and perform about the same).

I'll admit that I, along with many others, have voiced the complaint that spear units are too powerful, but I don't think order foot are quite the force you think they are.

In my experience spearmen can lose to swordsmen of equal cost, I just don't think the swordsmen experience a decisive enough advantage.

MTW has moved to the age of the phalanx, spear walls dominate in general, but I still wouldn't sell the swordsmen short.

[fenir]

Nope, Byzantine Infantry (heavy) where the best in the early period. Lamellar armour is better than mail and plate, Also lighter.
They where also trained better as a rule.

And there is no written rule that Swords beat Spears, espeically not in real life. it depended upon training and the honour of the unit.

Swordsman did not come about much until the high period, mainly because by then spaers could not effect the armour on MAA, or knights, hence halbadiers and later pkes being developed. Hence the "Golden Age" of knights and cavalry charges. Though the English Billmen did enough to put the damppener on that as well.

And cavalry didn't beat swords either, espeically when facing MAA, as they could not usually dislodge them.
So nothing is ever a foregone conclusion, espeically in combat.

If you want byzantine infantry or any sword unit to beat spears you have to use them correctly.
Try this, form them into a Wedge, then attack once you are very close.
Once attacking, change the Wedge to a close order fight. You will beat them.
Well atleast I do. But you will suffer.
Remember spearman where not there for fancy colour parades. They actually did fight and win lots, and the Medieval period is mainly about "Pole Armed" troops not swordsmen.
The swordsmen thing is a hollywood development to most effects.

You just have to survive the inital charge bonus of close order spear units.

The same works with Varagian guard against Italian Medium Infantry.

[Cadamer]

Ok all you all have had very good replys but, for 1, this is a real game and not TOTALLY based on history. If people made games to real they wouldn't be to fun. That being said, it was and still is a common known fact that in STW and MI , swords always beat the crap outta spears unless of course there were 2 units of spears goin after 1 units of swords. Yes, i know this is MTW , not Shougun, but whats with the sudden change? And everyone, i am not talking about single player, I am talking about multiplayer. anymapkoku, i tried 3 times to beat a comp with swords. First time, (1 unit of 40 Hospitiler, however you spell it, foot knights with 4 valor, vs, 1 units of 100 order foot soliders with 4 valor, i got owned) Second time, (1 units of 60 chiv men at arms with 4 valor, did i tiny bit better, but still got ass whipped.) Third time, (1 units of 100 Byz inf with 4 valor, i did well, but by the time my gen ran and game ended i ahd 16 men left while the order had 18 , so there bout even.) Now , from testing it all i can say is that right now, sword cant beat order foot soliders, i dont know if sword can own any other spears atm , but if they cant then thats just sad.Yes the units sizes are a bit screwy, i mean hell, why give an uber unit more than they need of men? *sigh* anyways, guess ill go make my gen an uber unit, get 3 ranged units, make 8 spears, and 4 cav. Or i will just go paly some shougun. Sorry for all the typos and punctuation being poor, I am quite tired.

[Papa Bear!]

Well if thats your conclusion than I guess your right, this just isn't STW or MI or WE.

But, I think you'll find, (at least I have), that in multiplayer the guy who brings all spears for inf can have his spear units locked up by fewer of the enemy's spears, and then voila, swordsmen maneuver to the rear, or a small exposed flank. The kinda stuff that big wide unit of spearmen can't really do.

You're right in saying that this is MTW and its an abrupt change, (that you can't just do a rock paper scissors strat), but that doesn't relegate swordsmen to the realm of useless.


I think the only problem that I really see, is that hold posistion is too powerful. Swordsmen go engaging at will, and they may tear their enemies apart, but they all too often get decimated themselves. I foot knight types should have more surviveability using engage at will.

[Cadamer]

Thank you Papa, your right, spearman do get locked up. Thanks for givining me a reason to use swords again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif. But i now only have 1 prob, is there any other way to counter order foots with something besides other order foots?

[anymapkoku]

Cadamer you're calculations are not sound. You must compare two units of equal cost, not equal valor.
Your logic is along the lines of "rock beats scissors so obviously scissors are too good and why not get 8 rocks?"
If the byz infantry had 16 men left to the order's 18, then I would count that as a win for the byz. Not only that but the byz player must have also had more money to send on his other units because the byz infantry cost him less(and won) than the order foot.
1-0 swords
The chiv men at arms, ok they get beat by orders. But Feudal men at arms tie orders so why are you comparing cmaa to orders in the first place? Is it not fair to compare the best swords to the best spears?
Hospitallers, ok, they are weak and need balancing. But not because "swords get beat by spears." Rather they need help because they are utter garbage.
You shouldn't be using a sword to attack an order head on anyways. Most of the time if I'm doing that it's because I'm completely stupid or I'm desperate.
This is how it works from my memory:
1) Chiv Sergeants make better spear units than Orders.
2) Order Foots beat Chiv Sergeants.
3) Orders and Fmaa tie eachother.
4) Fmaa are more versatile, better in more situations, and tire slower. They are better in general than orders/chivs because they can hold their own head on and also can flank well.
5) Spears can beat cavalry
6) Fmaa I believe beat Chiv Sergeants.
7) All of the above beat 125 florin spearmen.
8) 125 spearmen are the most cost effective against cavalry.
All this assumes that the units have equal money spent on them and all moeny is put into valor, or that the winning(superior) unit had less mony spent on it thant he unit it beat.
So you see there's 4 units right off the top of my head that are useful. Of the 4 I would say that the Fmaa are the most important. and you should have more of them than either order or Chiv S or anything else. I personally never use more than 3 orders.
That's just one army. If we're talking about a particular situation I can think of other units which would dominate the ones above.
Overall I'd say the best(best meaning highest chances of winning consistently versus your regular top palyer who is trying to win) army to bring, assuming you are exploiting inbalance and playing to win on agincourt/5k-10k, would be some kind of combination of spears, swords, and ranged. Maybe more or less of one type depending on the scenario and depending on your style/strategy.
I wont comment on your reference to the notoriously unbalanced STW and MI where people whined and complained incessantly about monks and the 4 honor/unit rule.
If you care about single player, then you can edit the stats on your own then.

[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-02-2002).]

[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-02-2002).]

[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-02-2002).]

[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-02-2002).]

[Papa Bear!]

well, out of curiosity I did some head on tests, and I found them extremely interesting.

H2H, (as seems to be the old STW lingo, head to head), Order Foot of Equal value, (not valor), beat Foot knights every time.

Interestingly enough though, the foot knights nearly always kill for about 150% of their losses if in close formation engage at will, and 200% of their losses in a wedge using engage at will.

Frustrated, (with proving myself wrong), I fiddled around a bit more.

What I found were 2 things, first, gothic foot knights aren't as good as hospitallers, (goth foots have exactly equal cost at val 3 to val 4 order, so they matched up nicely, but they never performed as well as the hospitalls).

Second, if one maneuvers their wedge so that it doesn't hit the spear wall head on, (I'm not saying a flank), but just to the side rather than dead center, its a sure victory for the foot knights.

What I used were valor 2 order foot and hospitallers, (giving a florins bonus of about 150 I think, to the foot knights). When I charged the wedge in head on, it always lost, (though inflicting heavy casualties).

When I ran the wedge at an oblique angle to the spear wall, however, (which was set to attack, and thus marching straight for me), the foot knights always won.

(3 successful attempts were enough for me to declare "always")

The trick is that, first, a wedge disrupts the primary advantages of the spear wall. (The spears can engage 2 rows deep, thus when a mere 40 knights spreads out against spears, their fighting 2 on 1) (also, the spears get their rank bonuses, which only count if in proper formation)
When using the wedge head on, the charge goes to the knights, but the spears are able to hold to their formation, (as even when pushed back, if they have the men in order behind them, they get the bonuses). And as the spears are depleted the sides move in to fill the gaps, from the rear of the formation, thus maintaining their bonuses.

When you maneuver your foot knights at an oblique angle, (charging at the last minute, thus directing your force against one side of the spear wall), your wedge doesn't perform properly initially and you suffer higher starting casualties due to the spear charge.

As a result of your concentration on one side, however, the slain order foot can not be so easily replenished from the troops that aren't fighting. This is basically the deciding factor, (as near as I can figure). Thus the spear unit quickly loses it ranks bonuses, and your foot knights are able to intermingle, (as the formation on the side your attacking collapses), so that your knights aren't spread out against a wall of 2 on 1. The end result is that the spear unit, attempting to hold formation, is decimated on one side, and though I doubt you actually get a flank bonus, (as my knights never actually struck from anywhere but inside the front side, left or right), the other effects of a flank, such as an enemy in disarray, take effect.

The results were astounding, my best being the foot knights winning with ~20 men lost, (50%), and inflicting roughly 70 casualties, (350% kill to loss ratio).

Quite telling I'd say.

So, my last resort was to test with multiple units, (which I didn't care to do, as the AI wouldn't be as intellegient as a human player, so its spears formations can be nullified in the trees, or by exposing flanks, etc.), but in the end this wasn't even necessary.

Now I say though, in addition to the points I made above, foot knights really can perform as desired, they may just take more finesse than in the days of Shogun.

Anymapkoku's comments are interesting, though I think, just readint that post now, that some of it seems disproved by my tests. (note I didn't even bother testing cmaa/fmaa as the price gap between them and the of is quite large)

And fenir, byz infantry maybe nice in the early period, but as you mentioned their dating in your post, I'd think its safe to say you understand how their mismatched with order foot.

The fact that they could compare so favorably makes me think their overpowered, (as they are half the cost of order foot).

[edit: oh and as I finished reading fenir's post, (I'm so hasty), I just now noticed your comment about switching to close formation after engagement, I found the foot knights more effective when left in wedge, (even though, obviously, the formations aren't taking place once the units have engaged at will), perhaps they still get the +3-3 bonus even after the wedge is no more? I'm certainly sure that keeping in the wedge would help me disrupt their formation, (as it was meant to in practice, and as I described above)].

[This message has been edited by Papa Bear! (edited 11-02-2002).]

[MizuKokami]

as i understand it, swordsman are shocktroops. as such, will lose to spearmen of equal value due to the defencive values of the spears. granted, the initial hit of your swords against spears is large, but after the charge wears off, the lower defence of your shock troops leads them to sustain far more casualties then the spears will. spear units are anti shock troops that have to be bent to the point of breaking before you hit them with your swordsman. the value of order foot soldiers is not just how good they are in holding a front line, as much as how well they are used, as with any troops. i know this because i suck real bad at the game:/ if you are chargeing order foot soldiers with your swords men, rather then trying to get the order foots tied up and just shoot them, then you are missuseing your shock troops. try sending one of your spear units into them, then moveing one of your archers slightly to a flanking position on them. shoot for about a minute or two directly at them, then charge your swordsmen at them. maybe that will work.

[Papa Bear!]

What I described above worked just fine in itself.

You're right that the smaller units tend to be regarded as the shock troops, and that the general rule of thumb is to tie up units first, (such as with your spears), then flank em with shocks. But, like I said, I found that the swordsmen can win without these measures. All it takes is some finesse, and should we really be advocating the same old same old? Might as well try for new and different if we can. If not then MTW is still a game of rock paper scissors, (with a set system for every unit)

[NARF]

Shogun had Swords? The only unit i remember having swords was the archers in melee, and they got 0wn3d

------------------
What is it that makes a complete stranger dive into an icy river to save a solid gold baby? Maybe we'll never know.

[Gringoleader]

In my experience of SP order foot troops tend to wind up fighting in the desert, where they get knackered because of their heavy armour. They are also poorly suited to fighting the fast moving units of the Muslim armies and you can batter them with arrows and javelins without too much bother. Once they are tired and have suffered a few hits you can take them out with Saracens.

[MizuKokami]

narf...the no dachi units carried swords.

no offence papa bear, but mtw is essentially a rock, paper, sissors game, and it should be. archers being paper, laying down a sheet of arrows. spears being rock, as they halt and hold the main line. calvary being the sissors, cause they cut thru the paper. this is the way of war, and it allways has been. if it wasn't, what good would it be with all units being able to be all units? i see what you are saying about finess, but it is not a thing of finess to be able to make a particular unit beat a different unit that it can't normally break. the right action taken by the unit that you are attacking would break the wedge, because the wedge has a much lower defence. the finess that should be achieved is not in individual units versus individul units, but the unification of all your forces, and the manipulation of your enemy. leading the enemies cav into a trap, punching a hole in the defencive line so you can charge your cav up the middle instead of tireing them out running like mad around the flank(the enemy expects that) or getting the enemies line tied up with just 2 or 3 units, so you can run all your shock troops around back. these things would be finess. finess is turning 16 units into one. not having 16 individual matchups. i respect that you were able to get your nights to beat the order foot, but like i said, no offence, but you wouldn't be able to do it against someone who has one army, instead of 16 armies.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

its each player responsibilty to pick an army that ensures a nice battle. Exploiting every best unit in every best situation is for the weak...

[Lord Romulous]

Quote Originally posted by Papa Bear!:


When you maneuver your foot knights at an oblique angle, (charging at the last minute, thus directing your force against one side of the spear wall), your wedge doesn't perform properly initially and you suffer higher starting casualties due to the spear charge.

As a result of your concentration on one side, however, the slain order foot can not be so easily replenished from the troops that aren't fighting. This is basically the deciding factor, (as near as I can figure). Thus the spear unit quickly loses it ranks bonuses, and your foot knights are able to intermingle, (as the formation on the side your attacking collapses), so that your knights aren't spread out against a wall of 2 on 1. The end result is that the spear unit, attempting to hold formation, is decimated on one side, and though I doubt you actually get a flank bonus, (as my knights never actually struck from anywhere but inside the front side, left or right), the other effects of a flank, such as an enemy in disarray, take effect.

The results were astounding, my best being the foot knights winning with ~20 men lost, (50%), and inflicting roughly 70 casualties, (350% kill to loss ratio).

Quite telling I'd say.

So, my last resort was to test with multiple units, (which I didn't care to do, as the AI wouldn't be as intellegient as a human player, so its spears formations can be nullified in the trees, or by exposing flanks, etc.), but in the end this wasn't even necessary.

Now I say though, in addition to the points I made above, foot knights really can perform as desired, they may just take more finesse than in the days of Shogun.

.][/QUOTE]

i tried this several times.

ai - civ sarg v2
me - civ maa v2.

in 80% of cases the maa got slaughtered. (this is using the wedge off to side strat. other 20% the maa won but with equal losses to the sarges.

[anymapkoku]

That's not true Magyar.
Picking the correct units for the correct situation requires more knowledge of the game than closing your eyes and randomly selecting a unit. To pick a fun army all you need to do is simply move your cursor over to the unit and left click. Furthermore, it's less challenging beating someone who uses a 2nd rate army than someone who uses the proper army for the situation. I want to outthink someone, that's my idea of a "fun" and "enjoyable" game. I'll simply find a new game if this one doesn't require brains to win. The minute you pick an army because it's "fun" and not because it's "smart" is the minute the game ceases to require any intelligence and hence ceases to be fun.

[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-04-2002).]

[Papa Bear!]

Well romulous, I guess hospitaller foot knights match up to order foot better than chiv maa do to chiv sergs.

Don't know what your point is, or what to tell you.

And mizokokami, you're welcome to carry on your belief that MTW's tactical engine is as simple as rock paper scissors, but I disagree.

Tell me that is it all you want, I insist otherwise. The fact that there are more than 3 elements to it, and the fact that one can match up the elements differently, is obvious evidence of this.

(skirmishers, for example, shoot arrows and can beat some troops in melee) (horsey skirmishers can have a tough charge, keep units in retreat, and supply their arrows)

(some cav are heavy D, and hardly worth charging with) (other cav are a huge charge for cheap, such as alans, but they'll die right quick compared to their armored cousins, or even compared to mounted sergeants)

So, no I still must say that MTW isn't rock paper scissors. I don't disagree that some units counter others effectively, but no single unit masters all. (which is one half of rock paper scissors) But since melee troops can beat spears, and since spears can beat melee, I think that nullifies the debate right there.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

What is with the sudden influx of AOK minded "History based games that are actually historically correct suck!" people to this forum???
Historical game, with this engine, would be FUN. This ISN'T AOK!!!!!!!!!! Its not Warcraft either, or C&C, or Cossacks! its TOTAL WAR! The most REALISTIC simulation of the ancient battlefield yet created into a RTS style game.

Now then, that notion aside, who says pikes were beat by swords in STW? I proved several times koku for koku you could bet any unit in the game with Yari Samurai, simply because a H6 Sam cost the same as a H3 Monk
and still beat it, with flying colors. Spears can be given high honour fairly cheaply, makeing them into superior troops then the swords AND be abe to kill cavalry.

So, in this game spears still rule. Unless you flank them. THAT is the rule, and the only one you should consider set in stone. You flank a Phalanx and it crumbles. Any roman can tell you that. *grins*


------------------
"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Gringoleader]

Not to mention what a high honour catapult does to well formed infantry. Where's that on the scissors paper stone eh?

[Papa Bear!]

indeed.

[MizuKokami]

silly rabbit...a catapult is paper, try to stand a catapult up to a pair of sissors (horses) chargeing them. high honor or no, the least that will happen is the cav will destroy the catapult, even if they don't kill the crew. and papa bear, i didn't say the engine of the game was rock sissors paper, i said warfare was. and i ment it in a general sence. if it wasn't so, then every army would consist only of rocks, sissors, or paper, and they would work no matter what.

as for what i'm happy with, or what i want, yes, i am quite happy with the basics of rock, paper, sissors, without which, the game would hardly be fun. because it's the diversities and various uses of the different units that make the game what it is.

[Papa Bear!]

Well my friend, since we're talking about warfare in the real world, perhaps we should be talking about real world armies.

(which we're not yet), but, for the sake of arguement, lets take, oh say, the cold war. First, in general, u.s. versus u.s.s.r.

Well, the ussr has a million more tanks than all of nato, but their air force would never match nato's. Though a war wasn't fought, it clearly seems like people had focused on particular "aspects" then.

How about the korean war. The u.s. shot down enemy migs, (chinese mostly), en masse. Employing more air power, and controlling the sky. The chinese, on the other hand, brought well over 1 million soldiers to bear in a single attack. The u.s., at the time, had only a few thousand troops in korea. More would follow, but never the likes of the chinese.

Well, I could go on, I could move from modern warfare to ancient, (less defined types, and less accurate information), etc. but I think historically it seems pretty clear that people fight with what works for them. Sometimes its just what they have, sometimes its just what they want. (the germans in ww1 had a kaiser who dreamed of having a great navy, in a rather boyish way, he was then afraid of losing it, thus perhaps he had all the angles, land/sea/air, but he opted not to use them all).

So, without more specefics on your part, its hard to respond all that accurately... I would maintain that warfare, as a rule, is still not a system of perfect combined arms. Sometimes, it lacks combination at all.

[Lord Romulous]

Quote Originally posted by Papa Bear!:
Well romulous, I guess hospitaller foot knights match up to order foot better than chiv maa do to chiv sergs.

Don't know what your point is, or what to tell you.
.[/QUOTE]


my point was.

i thought at first u had found a way for swords to beat spears of equal tech. (aside from holding them with other unit and charging at rear, side etc)

i am just indicating to those who are not aware that while your strat works for hos knights vs order foot, it does not work for all simlar tech spear vs sword confrontations.


[This message has been edited by Lord Romulous (edited 11-05-2002).]

[Papa Bear!]

I see, and a very good point to include. You're right that I didn't test anything else, (I was just attempting to approach the matter of this particular thread, order foot)

since you brought em up though, I'll go ahead and test some other match ups as well. I'll see if I can reproduce my results with lower tech units.

[vexatious]

Anymapkoku is correct, I use FMAA online against order foot all the time and normally win. I also use Chiv Sargeants against them and win quite often.