View Full Version : Creative Assembly Patch info
Ciliegio
10-24-2002, 21:40
Two months passed..
Can we have now some info about this patch release date, pls? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Or it's just top secret..?
Maybe i risk my life knowing when you'll make it out...to know who's killed John Kennedy will be safer for me....
LRossaCiliegio
Niccolomachiavelli
10-24-2002, 21:44
closed, locked, finito
this thread fails
Ciliegio
10-24-2002, 22:12
Why?
t1master
10-24-2002, 22:25
the truth...
Nial Black Knee
10-24-2002, 22:25
YEA, Why ? What are the MODS trying to hide.
Ciliegio
10-24-2002, 22:27
And what's the truth?
Really i need to know!!!!!!
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH !!!... love that movie. Patch is in QA. It'll be out when it's ready. 'til then you'll have to wait like the rest of us. tick..tock..
Ciliegio
10-24-2002, 22:31
I'd want..if not a release date, a period date...
Like...Gennuary 2003...March 2004...but they have to say something like this...we've paid and we ask for respect and brightness...it's too much to ask?
solypsist
10-24-2002, 22:36
okay
you win.
this is now THE patch complaint/ question thread.
all others will be closed or referred to this one.
Vent.
Just check www.totalwar.org (http://www.totalwar.org) for more patch info.
TomThumbKOP
10-24-2002, 22:37
I don't understand, my search for "patch" only turned up 200 hits.:b
DragonCat
10-24-2002, 22:38
I don't know what you young whippersnappers are complaining about.
I'm hoping the patch comes before I succumb to old age. I mean, I don't even buy green banannas!!!
Seriously though, in the grand scheme of things - done will be beautiful and I can wait for beautiful things in life!
------------------
DragonCat
. . . on the prowl!
Niccolomachiavelli
10-25-2002, 00:03
Quote Originally posted by solypsist:
okay
you win.
this is now THE patch complaint/ question thread.
all others will be closed or referred to this one.
Vent.[/QUOTE]
Damn you for rendering my post invalid! I'll get my revenge!
*moves assassin unit onto mod, sees chance of success at 23%, changes mind*
Well soon i think ill move onto another game im gettin fed up of waitin.As many r http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Moan..Moan... moan...
Sorry but im really fed up now!
I emailed Activision, politley asking about the patch, and this is what I was told
"Response (Mark Yao) 10/23/2002 02:43 PM
Hello,
Thank you for contacting customer support about Medieval Total War. We do not have any potential release date for the patch to this game. Please be patient and wait until it is announced and released."
Did ya get that, not just, no release date, but "no potential release date." At least Mr. Yao offered some fine advice I hadn't thought of, BE PATIENT! Thank God I finally got some sound advice from an industry professional.
What a guy, his boss should ban him from surfing the internet at work. I bet he would be just as helpful without the net, as he is with the net.
But, the icing on the cake is the end of the email,
"We will assume your issue has been resolved if we do not hear from you
within 96 hours.
Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you."
So, unless the patch is released within 96 hours, I'm still going to have issues that need resolving. I'm finished...
Coeur De Lion
10-25-2002, 00:30
cant you just wait when its done it will be realeasd if they realise it early from high demand and cant finish it you still be still moaning so lets just wait and see......
------------------
Coeur De Lion
Wolfgrin
10-25-2002, 00:33
This is the reply I got from Activision: "We cannot comment on any unreleased patches nor do we have this information. Keep checking our website and various game messageboards for information on any game patches." If Activision doesn't have this information, who does? Is it locked in a vault in Geneva? Quick, somebody drop a spy on Switzerland!
Niccolomachiavelli
10-25-2002, 01:04
They have a border fort though!
maethlin
10-25-2002, 01:10
Even a month or 2-month general period would be welcome... I just can't stand checking in every day to see if it's out yet. My poor Almohad, English and HRE campaigns are all stuck at a CTD year. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
This is a great example of why most game companies don't release *any* information on anything (it's usually not worth the pain and anguish). Here's what happened with the patch:
-Rabid players insist on x and y getting fixed and getting it fixed *now*.
-Patch is complete by the developer and submitted to QA. Players, eager for *anything* manage to extract a fixed item list from developer.
-Patch delayed (maybe a QA problem, maybe a marketing decree to time the popular patch to some marketing event). Rabid players tear developer a new one due to delay.
(predicted events http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
-Patch released. Players post many adoring and thankful posts
-A day or two go by. Players start clamoring for new patch and complain that feature x wasn't fixed or doesn't work as expected or promised fix y isn't in patch.
-rinse, repeat
Note that I mean "Rabid" in a good sense http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I used to work on massively multiplayer games, you ain't seen rabid until you check out a forum for one of those
Nial Black Knee
10-25-2002, 02:49
Does it seem to anyone else that all players
are being punished because of this so called
hacking event or what. Jeez if they cant fix
thier site in 2 weeks, then they should look for new jobs. I mean it's like thier using this hacking event to hide from the community. If thier site was so porous why didn't get hacked before? If not , then thier letting the hacker win. But unfortunately, we are the ones paying the price.
Niccolomachiavelli
10-25-2002, 02:55
Your logic is flawed. Please review your argument and turn it in at a later date for a half grade off.
Nial Black Knee
10-25-2002, 03:08
OOh, Im soorry teacher, At least I have a argument. Why do you think They've been down
so long Einstien.
Quote Originally posted by Niccolomachiavelli:
Your logic is flawed. Please review your argument and turn it in at a later date for a half grade off.[/QUOTE]
For God's sake release the freaking patch or a beta. I'm sick and tired of this. Just not 30 minutes ago, I was in a battle, 1900 Almohads vs my 600 or so defenders as English. I made a perfect choice of placement for my forces, and before the enemy could even reach me, their commander was dead, 200 of their troops also fallen, and they were on the retreat. When it was all over I had killed or captured 200 of them, lost 5 men. Then the turn continued and I went to my next brutal defense, only to have the game freeze my computer totally while I was placing troops. I want this patch or a beta of it now
Nial Black Knee
10-25-2002, 03:15
Sorry Nicco, lost my temper there for a sec.
Honestly in the 20 years I've been a gamer I
have found very little honesty associated with what dev. companies say.
Dionysus9
10-25-2002, 03:16
Yeah, why cant they just release the Beta and worry about fixing the minutia later?
This really is getting rediculous.
Activision = EA?
Sure starting to look that way.
Too bad activision is too arrogant to send their own representatitves here like CA.
Poor CA gets screwed no matter who they go with.
ACTIVISION ARE YOU SERIOUS? YOU ARE STARTING TO GET A BAD REPUTATION HERE.
Paco 2 Chihuahuas
10-25-2002, 03:20
Well I think you all should have paid more attention to your nicotine habits long before hand. There is nicotine gum, you know.
Niccolomachiavelli
10-25-2002, 03:30
Quote Originally posted by Nial Black Knee:
Sorry Nicco, lost my temper there for a sec.
Honestly in the 20 years I've been a gamer I
have found very little honesty associated with what dev. companies say.[/QUOTE]
No problem, I was just pointing out that you didnt give a specific reason why the official page being down and the patch development were connected. As far as I know, the web staff is in no way connected to the Dev team actually coding and testing the patch, therefore the site being down shouldnt effect when the patch comes out.
I'm as mad as anyone, I have a game whereing I've taken over 80% of the world but cant get past the latest "end turn". I sympathize, I really do.
2 months have now passed by
FasT unable to play online with Clan memebers etc.Or even stay in Foyer for any period of time without droppin ..Which i bought the game for.
I also dont like the campaign i get bored after a few hours.Build strong army and march across europe..Though is better than other campaigns we have had before...
Plyin SP really bores me,im sorry to say..
The Fun!the Challenge / Tactics r all online.....This is where u learn to ply the game to its full!
As i understand it DEv's found and solved many bugs in foyer...Ok so u fixed them..
1#Release Patch then all can ply online..or at least stay online..no crashes MP or SP.
2#Fix problems found SP/MP ,release patch...
3#Fix balancing and moans and groans,release patch...
Fine the game can be VGood is good..ok...
So i ask why it take so long???
FasT will soon look for a new game to play as others r doin at moment so sadly this game could be a big miss because of patch release delay...When really it should be a big hit!
I have spoken to many on this matter and 100% agree with me...After all it is usGamerswho keep the money comin in to design future games and u make profit out off it.
Plzs add ur views and comments on this matter,it may help now or future gamin on a whole if the Developersknow really what we want......
Enuf said by me for now
Happy now http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Nial Black Knee
10-25-2002, 03:36
Yea ,me too. Frustrated that is. I only started posting because of the patch, and now I've got almost 30 posts. My boss is going to kill me when he finds out how much I've been online at work. HEHE Good thing I'm
indespensible.
Ciliegio
10-25-2002, 04:00
Well FasT, i completely agree with your statement!
The problem is that they no longer care if we watch for other games...they yet own our money, that's all! No care for us...and i dont want to hear something about hackers attack to the .com...it's just ridicuolus as excuses http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Dont know how to say it better...for God's sake, give us a beta for online playing!!!!
LRossaCiliegio
solypsist
10-25-2002, 07:56
just a quick bump so this gets seen
and again: no limericks
[edit] I just checked out what was happening below....I can't wait to see how this turns out http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 10-25-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by solypsist:
just a quick bump so this gets seen
and again: no limericks[/QUOTE]
There once was a mod named solypsist....
DragonCat
10-25-2002, 10:01
who couldn't decipher the patch list. . .
Fearless
10-25-2002, 14:05
Me thinks by the time the patch is released all our MTW Forum programmers will have solved all the problems. These guy's are the really quite something. Spending unpaid time on enhancing and tweeking a bloody great game into something awesome............thank God we have them!!
Rosacrux
10-25-2002, 14:11
...he even ate all his biscuits...
GilJaysmith
10-25-2002, 14:39
Today's thrilling patch update:
The patch is still in QA at Activision. We now have no idea what the release date will be, but we're trying to find out for our own peace of mind, let alone yours.
Please note that the fact that the .com was hacked has nothing to do with the patch schedule, nor has anyone in the know claimed that they're related.
Fearless
10-25-2002, 16:09
Thanks Gil!.........take another pay rise!
Vinsitor
10-25-2002, 16:41
I completely agree with you FasT, I've made a similar post, but it disappeared (mods cleared it?) from the forum... bah!
Now I dont't really need balancing and minor fixes, I only need to play MP!!!!!!!!
I've bought the game 2 months ago and still I can't play MP, I wasted my money http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Speaking strictly in general terms:
The way to "punish" people in a free market societies is not to buy their products any more. However, by doing this, you may be both depriving yourself of the quality product and "punishing" the wrong people. The way to get around both of these problems is that a far better solution is to boycot only the weakest link in the chain, but not only by the consumers, rather by all other unsatisfied segments as well. I believe that this has been done before, since the production chain for MTW is not the same as the one for STW. Obviously, the present solution is not the optimal one either, so a good idea for all the necessary involved (and "damaged") parties is to do some more changes untill the optimum is achieved. We like the games that CA produces, and CA likes that we buy them, but there is a short circuit somewhere inbetween these two steps. I say, let us all try to find the way to eliminate it.
Cheers.......
Prodigal
10-25-2002, 18:28
Quote Originally posted by hrvojej:
I say, let us all try to find the way to eliminate it.
Cheers.......[/QUOTE]
You think swiss armoured pikemen might help? While we all still have them that is.
Quote Originally posted by Nial Black Knee:
Sorry Nicco, lost my temper there for a sec.
Honestly in the 20 years I've been a gamer I
have found very little honesty associated with what dev. companies say.[/QUOTE]
Obviously in those 20 years, you never played nethack. Now *THAT* was a dev-team !
Nial Black Knee
10-25-2002, 23:59
Nope never played it. I also said in MY
EXPERIANCE. I don't claim to be a KNOW IT ALL. Just a Know some of it all.
uninstalling this buggy piece... now. too many other great games being released, or at least, games i like well enough to pass time and have no significant bugs at all. and, once a game gets on the shelf, no matter how good it could have been, it stays on the shelf usually a long time.
the initial pique in this game is definitely gone for me.
two months. the community mostly agrees: release acknowledged bug patches, wait to address those issues that are maybe bugs or maybe features.
but now its too late... uninstallation... complete!
TomThumbKOP
10-26-2002, 03:21
Quote Originally posted by Taojah:
Obviously in those 20 years, you never played nethack. Now *THAT* was a dev-team ![/QUOTE]
Any game that can be gotten with the source code will have a great dev team. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
RabidMonkey
10-26-2002, 11:12
Yep this game is definatley going on the shelf, maybe itll come down again sometime but i think theres a better chance ill just drag shogun out for another challanging and hard fought campaign against a devious AI.
Quote Originally posted by GilJaysmith:
Today's thrilling patch update:
The patch is still in QA at Activision. We now have no idea what the release date will be, but we're trying to find out for our own peace of mind, let alone yours.
Please note that the fact that the .com was hacked has nothing to do with the patch schedule, nor has anyone in the know claimed that they're related.[/QUOTE]Im still http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif
Well lets saddle our horses and gallop over to Activision...
So whats holdin up the patch release?
Nial Black Knee
10-26-2002, 18:54
Quote Originally posted by FasT:
Originally posted by GilJaysmith:
Today's thrilling patch update:
The patch is still in QA at Activision. We now have no idea what the release date will be, but we're trying to find out for our own peace of mind, let alone yours.
Please note that the fact that the .com was hacked has nothing to do with the patch schedule, nor has anyone in the know claimed that they're related.Im still http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif
Well lets saddle our horses and gallop over to Activision...
So whats holdin up the patch release?
[/QUOTE]
If we lay all Actiscism's VPs out end to end in the parkinglot and gallop over them a couple times, I bet we get our patch. Saw that in a movie and always wanted to do it. HAHA
Quote Originally posted by Nial Black Knee:
If we lay all Actiscism's VPs out end to end in the parkinglot and gallop over them a couple times, I bet we get our patch. Saw that in a movie and always wanted to do it. HAHA[/QUOTE]
I was thinking more of that scene from the end of Braveheart.
Heinrich VI
10-26-2002, 20:14
the need for fixing is urgent!
i am higly frustrated atm cause i cant finish my hre campaign and i onw already almost 80% of europe but when i end my turn it ALWAYS quits to desktop. i tried altering my turn avoiding fights next turn - nothing. this game is great and i congratulate you to your (well deserved) award at pc gamer. but i wont play mtw anymore until this f***ing bug is fixed.
[This message has been edited by Heinrich VI (edited 10-26-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Heinrich VI:
the need for fixing is urgent!
i am higly frustrated atm cause i cant finish my hre campaign and i onw already almost 80% of europe but when i end my turn it ALWAYS quits to desktop. i tried altering my turn avoiding fights next turn - nothing. this game is great and i congratulate you to your (well deserved) award at pc gamer. but i wont play mtw anymore until this f***ing bug is fixed.
[This message has been edited by Heinrich VI (edited 10-26-2002).][/QUOTE]
Bump...*hopes GilJay will have that info he spoke of and give it to us this weekend being as how they are banned from getting on the net at work?!?!*
Heinrich ... try to turn off the auto-save !
I had about the same bug ... it was about auto-save in my case ... turning it off for about 20-30 years helped me out of it !
Papa Bear!
10-27-2002, 06:35
Quote Originally posted by Jaret:
Heinrich ... try to turn off the auto-save !
I had about the same bug ... it was about auto-save in my case ... turning it off for about 20-30 years helped me out of it ![/QUOTE]
this is very useful information, these forums really need a recepticle for such tidbits.
Heinrich VI
10-27-2002, 08:07
thanks jaret!
your solution worked for me. you have saved an empire today!
Quote Originally posted by Heinrich VI:
thanks jaret!
your solution worked for me. you have saved an empire today![/QUOTE]
Bumpity bump bump...bump bump
firebead
10-29-2002, 14:23
There are too many threads regarding the patch. Every threads share the same pattern: When is patch coming out??? --> Guess Guess Guess... --> Angry Angry Angry (we rant, beg, forgive, hope...) --> CA comes out says it's almost ready, and it's in QA, BUT no date for the release --> more Angry or "Thank-You" posts --> The thread getting too long so some of us create another thread...
I think we are so pathetic because we spent the money on this game and actually enjoyed playing it. Yet it's ultimately our own fault to tolerate and support companies like Activision to release a buggy game and than ignore us. Why so? Because they already pocket our money. Why should they care? While they know we will buy another buggy game from them any way next time.
I know I will get flamed by saying the following, but it's truly what in my mind:
Buy your game from EB, if it's buggy then return it. Well if you think the 7-day window is too short, DOWNLOAD it! Developers deserve our support, but the gamers who paid for the game deserve the support from the company as well. It's a mutual respect!
i love activision... so helpful with patches... perhaps the QA dep need a boot in the arse
Fearless
10-29-2002, 16:51
So very sad.................CA do a great job only to be badly let down by Activision. It's true what they say "The bigger the company the less interest in the customers who made them big!" Publishers are only interested in profit! Has anyone who may have emailed Activision got a reply. If CA can't get a response what chance the rest of us!!
GilJaysmith
10-29-2002, 17:28
Quote Originally posted by firebead:
Well if you think the 7-day window is too short, DOWNLOAD it! Developers deserve our support, but the gamers who paid for the game deserve the support from the company as well. It's a mutual respect![/QUOTE]
Dixon of Dock Green mode: "Theft. It's an ugly word..."
I'm happy to agree that software should be returnable on quality grounds, but I can't condone downloading it. Writing poor software is not (yet) a crime, but downloading it in retaliation is not (yet) legal.
Quote Originally posted by GilJaysmith:
Dixon of Dock Green mode: "Theft. It's an ugly word..."
I'm happy to agree that software should be returnable on quality grounds, but I can't condone downloading it. Writing poor software is not (yet) a crime, but downloading it in retaliation is not (yet) legal.[/QUOTE]
Just to highlight a point : ANYTHING sold that has a building flaw is supposed to be refunded.
As it's about impossible to furnish a completely bug-free program, the software industry can get away with it.
But in theory, writing poor software IS a crime, or at least a sufficient flaw that would deserve to cancel the selling.
So sorry, but I consider it perfectly understandable to DL a game to try it and see if it's good enough to buy it, as you don't have any warranty that allow you to return it if it's bugging on your computer.
[This message has been edited by Akka (edited 10-29-2002).]
Ciliegio
10-29-2002, 18:25
Gil....it's time for you to face the reality...
Most of all couldnt play single or multy -player...
Is this legal?
TO sell a product as finished when is so bugged? And after all do not care about let customers waintign for a couple of month a patch that give us the possibilities to play in a normal way???
When i get access to the multyplayer i light a candle for grace received!
For me it's a promess. I will download the next game before paying 56euro to a software house like this.
GilJaysmith
10-29-2002, 18:28
Quote Originally posted by Akka:
So sorry, but I consider it perfectly understandable to DL a game to try it and see if it's good enough to buy it, as you don't have any warranty that allow you to return it if it's bugging on your computer.
[/QUOTE]
I consider it perfectly understandable too; many people think that doing something that everyone else does, which offers basically no visible bad comebacks, is not a crime.
If you can't be sure whether a game is going to be good, wait to see what other people say, and then either buy it or don't buy it. It's a risk. People have no apparent difficulty with this process and the inherent risks when it comes to going to the movies, buying a book, going to a restaurant, or indeed moving to a new house. And few of these actions are reversible and refundible as a rule, although your mileage may vary for some of them depending on your vendor - just as happens with software.
I don't doubt that the move to a wired world will change some of the ways in which we behave and some of the laws we've created to monitor our behaviour. Try-before-you-buy will become possible and software development may well change so that it can be funded incrementally by some kind of subscription system or whatever.
However, at the moment, all I see is theft, theft, theft, theft, theft, with nothing to justify it except the magpie instinct.
Sorry, but that's the way I feel.
Fearless
10-29-2002, 19:29
Oh dear the rot is starting to set in!!
Because Activision can't get their finger out and give us the long awaited patch members of this forum are really starting to show frustration!.....................mind you can we blame them!!
Remember Activision MUD STICKS!!
Rosacrux
10-29-2002, 19:35
I write to make a living, so I perfectly understand Gil's feelings towards software piracy. But the high demand for new games, fuelled by the companies and the way they build games nowadays (releasing half-finished s/w plus aiming at the 10-14 years-old target group, which has a very limited interest span, does that sort of things, you know) is leading most people - especially youngsters, who haven't got the means to support themselves but rely on the - usually limited - parental purse for their purchases, to D/L pirated games by the dozens.
There are, currently, no ways to prevent this, but it's not for now to discuss.
this is a very difficult issue, there are arguments from both sides but as it stands i have to agree with gil :s at the end of the day it is breaking the law isn't it? and in my experience laws are there for reasons http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
maybe in time things will change, but at the moment, as this is the only patch topic open please try and keep on track http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif for everyones sake http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
------------------
previously BarryNoDachi - KenchiBND
Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
Maelstrom
10-29-2002, 20:01
I am with Gil here.
The view that theft can be condoned, simply because it is easy to get away with, is utterly reprehensible.
I have some sympathy with those who (like me) are having significant problems. But I have found that if you buy from somewhere reputable you should have no trouble returning the game in the event or unresolvable problems.
There is a grey area where the software should run, but is too problematic to be useable. Here the obligation is on the developers to resolve these issues (which they have tried to do) and the publishers to disseminate the fix (which they have so far failed to do).
Many of us are getting frustrated, but please let's not resort to justifying crime.
If you want to try a game, then download the demo and try that. Whilst not a guarantee, if you can get that running you will probably be alright. I do this with 9/10 games that I buy, and did it with MTW. Admittedly I had trouble with the demo, but the game looked so good I bought it anyway. I have since been relying on the Devs to get things sorted out, so I only have myself to blame.
If we are going to start justifying piracy on these boards, don't be surprised if the Devs just tell us to go hang and disappear...
i think that someone must be incredibly naive when he buys a PC game and expects no problems under any circumstances.
Anyone who regularly buys PC games knows that there is the slight chance of hardware/software compatability issues. It happens to all of us. for instance I had to upgrade my OS to get Settlers3 to work (and it still sucked). Or AvP2 didn't quite work so well with my radeon as it did with my old voodoo. I know how teriibly frustrating it is to have a hardware issue, but it is part of PC gaming.
As it stands CA delivered a great SP game (i can't judge the MP since I don't play MP). There is always the possibility that you personally don't like the game, but that is not the fault of CA. Tastes differ after all.
I would have blamed CA if there were any game-stopping software bugs (like B&W for instance) but I have been playing it since it came out and haven't seen any.
although i am quite relaxed about downloading software, in this case I would disapprove of it since CA has a proven trackrecord with STW. I actually first had a downloaded copy of STW, but then quickly saw how good it was. I then went to the store and bought a copy, bought MI when that came out, and bought MTW without even looking at any reviews.
(If it was a shit company who deliveres garbage after garbage then i would say: so what)
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http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif
[This message has been edited by sapphoo (edited 10-29-2002).]
Quote And few of these actions are reversible and refundible as a rule, although your mileage may vary for some of them depending on your vendor - just as happens with software.[/QUOTE]
That is just flat out incorrect. In every case you have some sort of recourse. The issue is not about the subjective matter of like or dislike, it's the objective matter of work or don't work as promised.
Buy a book? If it has pages missing I can take it back. Not be subjected to excuses and finger pointing between the author and the publisher on who's fault it is and still not get a refund.
Go to a restaurant? I don't have to pay to eat bugs. Can you imagine your frustration if every restaurant in the past 2 years you went to had a bug in there soup? On top of that all the restaurant owners tell you that is just the way it is now eat you soup and like it? In effect that is exactly what the software industry is doing.
While I agree theft of a product is not the answer I can't agree with your analogies here. In every case the customer has some form of recourse, in software purchase you just don't.
Rosacrux
10-29-2002, 20:24
Gents... we may not condone piracy under any circumstances (not just because it is against the law but also for practical reasons: if money goes into the developers-publishers pocket, they'll have the incentive to keep on making games and some of them might even be of our liking) BUT there is a practical issue: 90% of those who buy a game (and I am talking about teenagers) won't spend with it more than a month, at best (usually a week or two of intensive gaming and then ...to the shelf). Face it, the attention span of any kid/teenager is severely limited. That's the way things are.
So... how many parents are you aware of, who would buy 24-40 computer games annualy for their kids? That is a rather large sum it comes to... how easy it is for a low-income family to justify such an expense just to keep the youngster happy?
So... the kids resort to piracy to get all the fancy games. Despite the fact that they don't actually play more than 3-4 out of 10 games they get that way.
Quote I consider it perfectly understandable too; many people think that doing something that everyone else does, which offers basically no visible bad comebacks, is not a crime.[/QUOTE]
I would just say that it's easier to convince yourself that you don't do anything bad if everyone is doing it. But still it does not MAKE it right. That is not my point (everyone is driving like crazy on roads, and I STILL consider it bad http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif)
Quote If you can't be sure whether a game is going to be good, wait to see what other people say, and then either buy it or don't buy it. It's a risk. People have no apparent difficulty with this process and the inherent risks when it comes to going to the movies, buying a book, going to a restaurant, or indeed moving to a new house. And few of these actions are reversible and refundible as a rule, although your mileage may vary for some of them depending on your vendor - just as happens with software.[/QUOTE]
Not true. If you pay to see a movie and it stops halfway and then you are told "we got a technical problem, sorry. No get out of the theater, others are coming for the next viewing", you can be SURE you WILL be refund.
If your house lacks ceiling, same.
If your car break after 1000 miles because the engine had a flaws, same.
If your books miss 50 pages, same.
No, if you bought a game that crash half-way, or where the ending movie is missing parts, or freeze if you move a particular unit in a particular condition, sorry but you're out of luck. No one will refund you. Still, it's a built-in flaw that would allow you to cancel the selling if it was ANYTHING BUT a video game.
I don't expect for bug-free programs. I KNOW that it's just impossible. I will accept to have some bugs if they are not destroying the game.
Now, as a consumer, I have a higher risk when buying a video game compared to when buying a book or a house (because I can't be refund if there is a flaw in it).
So I consider it normal to have in compensation a way to test the game befor buying it (you are allowed to visit the house and to drive the car for a few kilometers or to read some pages of the book before buying, BTW, though the movie does not grant the same advantages ^^).
So for a consumer PoV, I find that it's just a bonus to compensate a malus.
For your own PoV (the one of a developper), it can be a malus (because if someone can get a pirated game, it perhaps won't buy the retail version), but it can also be a bonus.
I, for instance, did not plan to buy MTW at all. Then I saw it on the Net, though "let's give it a try". DL it, then thought "good game, it deserve to be paid", then bought it.
Here you have an example where piracy actually GAVE you a customer.
On a slightly different situation, but still concerning the same issue, there is plenty games (like Revenant, Battle Realms, Stronghold...) that I would have bought if I could have got a pirated version. Why ? Well, simply because the only commercial versions are localised ones.
I HATE all the localised versions. I want the ORIGINAL ones. So if a game is localised, I will get it ONLY if I can have the original version (=> the pirated one), so I can still have the game in english. Then I can buy the localised version and just let it sit in the box - my original CD of MTW has never left its box http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Did it for Warcraft III, did it for MTW, did it for Baldur's Gate 2, did it for basically half of my games.
Half of my games I would never have bought if I could not have the pirated version.
See how something that is APPARENTLY a theft can make you sell more games in the end ?
Using this method, I could playtest games like Civ3 and NWN, that lacked many things they promised they would have. I was then able to know that they were not worth buying, and could keep my money for better-deserving games.
I did not used this method on Diablo 2. I then ended with a crappy game that was not at all what I wished. The side-effect is that I would never have bought Warcraft 3 if I could not have tested it, because I was become defiant, because of Diablo 2. Again, a game I bought BECAUSE of piracy.
If I would not had this possibility to review games before buying them, I think I would actually buy much LESS of them, and not more. Just because I would not want to risk my money in buying a possibly crappy product.
Responsible piracy (in opposition to irresponsible one, where people just copy games without bothering to reward the authors of good ones) is in my opinion a very effective QA department. While marketting make many crappy games selling good (because of massive adds, hype and so on) while many good games stay unknow, responsible piracy allow to counter this effect, and reward ONLY good games. I think that people like you have all to gain from it.
Quote I don't doubt that the move to a wired world will change some of the ways in which we behave and some of the laws we've created to monitor our behaviour. Try-before-you-buy will become possible and software development may well change so that it can be funded incrementally by some kind of subscription system or whatever.
However, at the moment, all I see is theft, theft, theft, theft, theft, with nothing to justify it except the magpie instinct.
Sorry, but that's the way I feel.[/QUOTE]
I can understand your point, as I can imagine how bad you could feel if you see people getting your hard-worked product without repaying you.
But I don't feel guilty. I bought your product after all, so I did not steal anything from you ^^
Just look at this way :
1) If you make a GOOD game, there is plenty people like me who will buy it anyway, just because they feel they have to reward the creators of a good game.
2) If you make a crappy, pathetic game, then you don't DESERVE to sell it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by Akka (edited 10-29-2002).]
GilJaysmith
10-29-2002, 20:37
Apologies for making this thread jump the rails... poor form on my part.
Back therefore to the patch status. Activision has given us a list of must-answer issues, and we're working on them now.
Run silent, run deep, little panda...
that's an intriguing word 'must-answer issues'
care to comment on how this communication process concerning a patch goes between developer and publisher and how a must-answer issues fits in here?
------------------
http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif
Duke of Cornwall
10-29-2002, 20:52
Quote Date 29 October 2002
Further to your correspondence of 29 October 2002
Thank you for contacting us. I am sorry you are having problems with Medieval Total War. The game developers are working on a patch and unfortunately I am not quite sure yet when it is going to be released. Please keep a regular check at www.activision.com. (http://www.activision.com.)
I am sorry for the inconvenience caused.
.
Your customer number is 300171071
If you need further assistance in Europe, please call our technical support staff at
0870 241 2148 or contact us by e-mail at support@activision.co.uk . Also be sure to include all previous replies when/if responding to this message.
Best Regards,
Stephen at Activision Technical Support
-----------------------
Pull your fingers out and release the MTW patch. You've had the damned thing
for weeks now.
The .org forum is full of angry & disillusioned MTW players at the moment.
I will not buy another Activision game.
Severely annoyed
Duke of Cornwall
(Reading, England)[/QUOTE]
Activision support claim the patch is with CA. Are they just plain ignorant or do they know something we don't ?
Fearless
10-29-2002, 20:56
Quote Originally posted by GilJaysmith:
Apologies for making this thread jump the rails... poor form on my part.
Back therefore to the patch status. Activision has given us a list of must-answer issues, and we're working on them now.
Run silent, run deep, little panda...[/QUOTE]
Halleluja....................I see the light!!............Whoopee!!!!!!!!
Who knows. It's all very cryptic and cloak and daggery just to get a bloody fix for a computer game. Patches being "negoiated", "must answer issues". Geez fix the damn thing so I can finally play the game as it was advertised!!
-Apeboy
Since when did a restaurant make you pay to eat bugs?
Ciliegio
10-29-2002, 21:48
This is so ridicoulos....
I just dont have any more words!
Maybe the developers will make the game a present at its Birthday...august 2003...
This is so ridicuolous....
But i still cant reach what CA is pointing to...
DARK...HERMETIC...HIDING SOMETHING...what the hell %&**%???? It's just a patch!!! Tell us a period and we'll wait patiently!!!!!!
It's so hard for you???
What the hell are you testing?? Total War 3??
[This message has been edited by Ciliegio (edited 10-29-2002).]
Mori Gabriel Syme
10-29-2002, 22:21
Quote Originally posted by Ciliegio:
This is so ridicoulos....
[/QUOTE]
I agree. It's a truly appalling display of... oh, wait. I thought you were talking about this thread. Never mind.
Niccolomachiavelli
10-29-2002, 22:39
Quote Originally posted by Ciliegio:
This is so ridicoulos....
I just dont have any more words!
Maybe the developers will make the game a present at its Birthday...august 2003...
This is so ridicuolous....
But i still cant reach what CA is pointing to...
DARK...HERMETIC...HIDING SOMETHING...what the hell %&**%???? It's just a patch!!! Tell us a period and we'll wait patiently!!!!!!
It's so hard for you???
What the hell are you testing?? Total War 3??
[This message has been edited by Ciliegio (edited 10-29-2002).][/QUOTE]
Look at me! I'm an obsessive little fanboy who insists on making his point by using profanity and all caps!
Yes it sucks the product is defective.
No there is nothing your tired rants can do about it.
Calm the hell down and satisfy yourself by making a constructive and calm complaint. Constantly flinging insults and rants wont speed things along or make the devs see the light.
firebead
10-29-2002, 23:23
Gil, I am sorry if my post offended you or your team. I believe some of us in this forum are or were software developers like you. I worked as a developer coding Customer Support software for 2 years. Though I understand your situation, and agree with you 100% that DL a non-shareware is "THEFT", I regret to say that video game developers/publishing houses have much lower standard of discipline and ethics than enterprise SW firms. If we had released a product as buggy as this, it would have been the end of our firm. Worse, if we don't correct the issues in a timely manner and let them sit for 2+ months, we would have been sued our arses off.
The current situation is so against the consumers who purchase video games that I pity ourselves. I have to say the companies like Activision are really the THIEVES who are shamelessly robbing the consumers who put thrust on them. Worse, due to most vendors don't allow return video games, we have to live with it.
I myself couldn't return the game to EB because I bought it too early and stick to it too long. Fortunately, there is still eBay, and I recovered part of funds.
Said all that, let me remind all of us that it's nothing personal against any particular developers in CA. Gil, among other full-hearted developers are just part of the system which they are unable to change or justify.
I am really not sure if DL a game is a crime in the current system. At least to me, it's hardly unethical to steal from the robbers.
I wouldn't worry about the minority who actually DL the game, because MTW is the top 6 selling games in N. America. Both Activision and CA should be compensated enough. What we really should worry is the decaying trusts between gamers like myself and the irresponsible companies, and the unfair system we all in right now.
In a sense, it's almost humorous to see robbers accusing other thieves. They are all the same suit in my taste.
[This message has been edited by firebead (edited 10-29-2002).]
Nial Black Knee
10-29-2002, 23:51
Just wanted all you to know that I got a new
game over the weekend;(yes my wife let me because she said "anything to stop the loud cussing comming from the computer room")so
I probably wont be around much. I'll check back in a year and see if the patch is done.
"This is Nial signing off"
"must-answer-questions" in QA are either
- things that you promised that would be there, but are not
- new faults
Sometimes it's enough to answer the QA-guy 'nope, it's not there, sorry pal' or 'yep, it still crashes once in a while, but less then before'.
But sometimes QA simply does not approve the software without these things being fixed.
Wait and see I guess...
Like I said in another thread, I worked in QA for 18 months and then moved into programming, so I know both sides of the argument.
So, in summary, if the devs promised something that isn't there, that is BAD, BAD, BAD.
If they broke something else whilst doing a fix for another issue, that is unfortunate, but it does happen.
This doesn't bode well though. Our QA department takes a week to look over 1 piece of our 12 piece software suite. 1 line of code changes...that's a whole extra week!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
------------------
It's getting warm in here...that must be one hell of an INFERNO!
maybe someone could mail them again asking for a representative to post at this message board?
------------------
previously BarryNoDachi - KenchiBND
Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
Gregoshi
10-30-2002, 08:58
Piper, an Activision rep, http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif does post frequently at DD's forum. I don't recall any recent comments on the patch status though.
------------------
Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon
t1master
10-30-2002, 09:05
Quote Originally posted by Gregoshi:
Piper, an Activision rep, http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif does post frequently at DD's forum. I don't recall any recent comments on the patch status though.
[/QUOTE]
he said the patch is in quality control in america, so ya brits, don't get your hopes up... it'll be decades before it comes out. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
besides, what company would make a patch after being named the #1 game of all time?
kaleun76
10-30-2002, 22:37
bump
Swoosh So
10-30-2002, 23:04
I bet the patch wont be out till the .com site is fixed, I betcha! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I have to ask one thing...
How come it is so hard for Activision to get the Q&A done, when companies such as Blizzard manages to get out several patches in the same timeframe for most of their games...
Maybe it is because they are not bound by Activision and does their own Q&A.
GAH!!! CA good, Activision bad!!!
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Swoosh So
10-30-2002, 23:17
Maybe thats why warcraft is more widely liked and totalwar not
Nial Black Knee
10-30-2002, 23:24
Bought a new game over the weekend.Guess what
they allready have a patch out. The game has been out a whole 2 weeks. Actiscism take note, not everybody screws their customers.
Quote Originally posted by Swoosh So:
Maybe thats why warcraft is more widely liked and totalwar not[/QUOTE]
That could very well be it...
Inactivision certainly have too much in their hands if they can't manage to go through the Q&A, which the devs should do as they do at Blizzard (with obvious good results). How come a company that has nothing to do with the development has so much of a say when it comes to a patch or other features (they were the ones that weakened the AP before the release)? Is it their game? NO!!!! But they earn the money from it, so they should be happy when the devs do something and trust them.
Why intefere with success?
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
That could very well be it...
Inactivision certainly have too much in their hands if they can't manage to go through the Q&A, which the devs should do as they do at Blizzard (with obvious good results). How come a company that has nothing to do with the development has so much of a say when it comes to a patch or other features (they were the ones that weakened the AP before the release)? Is it their game? NO!!!! But they earn the money from it, so they should be happy when the devs do something and trust them.
Why intefere with success?
[/QUOTE]
Yea I cant tell you how many times ive gotten a game a day or two before the official release date cuz of a wonderful store here that doesnt always wait when they get the games in, and often times I get home, install the game, and find a patch. And the game isnt even officially released. I blame activsion totally though. I think CA did all they could in getting the patch to them and now activision is sitting around *self censored*
Swoosh So
10-31-2002, 00:52
Hmm blame activision totally??, It was the same with ea, Dont activision do quake3, there were beta patches galore flying around, and about 20 or so official patches
[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-30-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-30-2002).]
Gregoshi
10-31-2002, 01:28
Two thoughts on this patch discussion:
1) I'll bet MTW is much more complex than Starcraft/Warcraft and the MTW AI could probably run circles around their "AI" as well. Complexity = more testing time.
2) I'd hazzard to guess that these games with patches released a day or two after the game hits the stores had "gone gold" with the company knowing there were serious bugs to fix. They were fixing and testing bugs while the manufacturing and distribution were getting the game to the store shelves. I don't like the idea of a company releasing a bug laden game all the while hoping they can fix the bugs by the time the game starts selling. I'd much prefer CA approach - fix what bugs they can before going gold and see what new bugs are revealed when released.
------------------
Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon
Niccolomachiavelli
10-31-2002, 01:33
You cant expect us to believe that CA just completely missed the bugs we are all experiencing. The CTD, MP problems, massive rebellions, uncatchable ships. I would actually be surprised if more than a handful of the team actually played through a whole total domination campaign. I'd love to think they did extensive playtesting, but that is by no means evident.
Ciliegio
10-31-2002, 02:13
Completely agreed Niccolò
CA wouldn't be the 1st company to rush a game due to pressure from the suits.
Maybe a suit from Activision looks at this thread and gets some sick satisfaction from depriving us all as we writhe in agony...
BEG YOU FILTHY BEETCHES!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA
I've stopped playing and have moved on to Battlefield 1942. Well, I guess I haven't really moved on, I check this board 4 times a day to writhe in agony for the Activision suit.
WHAT MUST I DO, MASTER??? (grovel, writhe, grovel)
Richard the Slayer
10-31-2002, 03:01
I think too many people play bugs on their shitty playing ability.
Cool I stopped playing long before my first campaign was finished, about a month ago. Then I come check out what is going on. The totalwar.com forums are STILL down (so it says on the site) and no patch, the first topic here is ABOUT why-no-patch.
Duh.
See you in another month or something.
Quote Originally posted by Richard the Slayer:
I think too many people play bugs on their shitty playing ability.[/QUOTE]
Yea thats it. That is precisely the reason the game crashed to desktop or locks up the computer completely. Because of my shitty playing ability. Thanks for your insights. Just be quiet from now on.
Niccolomachiavelli
10-31-2002, 09:34
Completely agreed elzar
Richard the Slayer
10-31-2002, 09:42
From the earlier posts, I was not referring to those types of bugs. If you dont understand what someone is saying, I suggest you
A) Shutup or...
B) Ask them for clarification
I was not referring to bugs that crash your computer or effectively stop you from playing the game. I am referring to other bugs that people complain about such as excessive massive rebellions, or crusades being too difficult. Unfortunately too many players blame gameplay problems on "bugs" whereas they were designed to present greater challenges than STW. The definition of "bug" is not what some people here assumed it to be.
Richard the Slayer
10-31-2002, 09:46
Quote Originally posted by Niccolomachiavelli:
Completely agreed elzar[/QUOTE]
BTW, If you guys have nothing constructive to add to the posts here, I dont understand why you waste your time reading peoples comments and instead of drawing intelligent conclusions made sarcastic comments. Judgement unfortunately ruins some of these posts.
Niccolomachiavelli
10-31-2002, 10:16
I believe it was on this very page wherein I contributed to the conversation in a "constructive" way. Furthermore, I dont see why I'm not entitled to voice my agreement with a fellow who pointed out the incomplete nature of your argument, nor was I in any way being sarcastic as your post implies.
I should think it would be obvious that you would need to provide some sort of "clarification" when you came up with the rhetorical gem that was, "I think too many people play bugs on their shitty playing ability."
And I dont consider it a waste of my time to read what are, for the most part, quite intelligent and engaging comments--ranging from the game mechanics to historical factoids.
Quote Originally posted by Richard the Slayer:
BTW, If you guys have nothing constructive to add to the posts here, I dont understand why you waste your time reading peoples comments and instead of drawing intelligent conclusions made sarcastic comments. Judgement unfortunately ruins some of these posts.
I don't understand how, "I think too many people play bugs on their shitty playing ability." is a constructive post.
[/QUOTE]
Richard the Slayer
10-31-2002, 11:41
oh boy, lol, this is beginning to become childish. I'm moving on to other topics.
firebead
10-31-2002, 14:18
Yep. Time to start another "patch" thread...
Quote Originally posted by firebead:
Yep. Time to start another "patch" thread...[/QUOTE]
And rename this one "Overly stressed-out people throwing their toys out of the pram"
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Heinrich VI
10-31-2002, 19:16
i wont comment on the piracy discussion but i fully agree with nicco. some of the bugs are so obvious it is impossible to not notice them during playtesting. im afraid WE are the beta testers. at least our situation is not that bad - take a look at bf1942 i consider this game as "the rip-off of the year" and i wont buy another ea game. unfortunately activison is approaching the 2nd place.
btw i stopped playing mtw. i have managed to save my hre camapign (thanks agian to jaret) by disabling autosave. but now the exact same bug occurred in my new english campaign (crashing to desktop - without any error message). autosave is disabled and i catn find a workaround for this bug. game over u failed to conquer europe crushed by the mighty bug empire.
My god I cant believe the patch hasnt been released yet.
olaf
solypsist
11-01-2002, 03:48
we need Mith to whip us up an effigy, so we can show our support http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Dionysus9
11-01-2002, 03:57
Quote Originally posted by Heinrich VI:
. . . i wont buy another ea game. unfortunately activison is approaching the 2nd place. . . .[/QUOTE]
I can't agree more. I was absolutely disgusted with EA's lack of customer support for STW and I will not buy another EA game. Activision hasn't totally alienated me yet, but they are close. At this point, I don't know why I would spend money on an expansion...
------------------
Bacchus
----
In the end times, there will be rumors of a patch-- but none shall come. And there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth across the lands. And still no patch shall come. And the poor suckers will start eating their children out of frustrated desperation. And yet-- no patch shall come. Alas the end of days shall be dark and horrible.
maethlin
11-01-2002, 04:12
All these arguments here aside, I truly do feel a bit sad for CA and Activision on taking so long with the patch. Whatever the cons of rushing out at least the most basic fixes for the majority of problems (for people who crash or can't even start the game) - they will lose a TON of potential customers today as Age of Mythology is shipped.
I say this because I truly do love MTW, and have been waiting patiently for a month now for a patch so I can finally finish any of my 4 campaigns stuck at various CTD points... and instead I find myself faced with the choice of buying AoM. If AoM proves as good as it looks, I expect that'll be the next game to suck me in... and subsequently, my friends. I imagine I'm not unique in this position.
Lots of people have short attention spans when it comes to gaming... not because they're flighty and fickle really... but more because they have limited time. Too many good games out there, and too little time to play them all. Games which have true lasting power are those that are supported well and constantly... and that grow massive support via word-of-mouth (as well as a good initial budget for advertising).
Anyhow, I do still hope for a patch soon. Maybe it'll even come out before I end up grabbing a copy of AoM.
MagyarKhans Cham
11-01-2002, 04:14
"where is the patch anyway?
dont come here with talks about
"they souldnt rush teh patch tils its good" or "the game is ok for me"
the MP-game is unplayable in the main hours and just playable on sunday morning 0500 gmt.
the whole dev team and activision are to blame. i challenge CA and activision. if they pay my versions of twm i will return them...."
my Khan is pissed....
so which moderator will edit this or ban me?
Edited on request by TosaInu.
[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 11-03-2002).]
KardinalSyn
11-01-2002, 04:43
Quote Originally posted by Richard the Slayer:
oh boy, lol, this is beginning to become childish. I'm moving on to other topics.[/QUOTE]
Oh great not another " The Patch is here! " topic started by Richard the VillageIdiot!
and ironic he said " this is beginning to become childish ".. well.. the first one to begin the childish replies, was you... moron http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Baron Nogood
11-01-2002, 04:47
Quote Originally posted by DragonCat:
. I mean, I don't even buy green banannas!!!
[/QUOTE]
Why not? All I eat here is fried green bannanas..."chifles, chifles, chifles los diez centavos los chifles" I like the picante ones myself...where was I...oh yeah...FREE GREEN BANANAS
------------------
No FTAA: Hasta La Victoria Siempre
MagyarKhans Cham
11-01-2002, 23:13
bump
Should of made the game playable 1 month ago..then start fixin gameply problems...
Game 2 months...no MP battles....What a waste http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif
Dionysus9
11-02-2002, 00:45
My sig. says it all
------------------
Bacchus
----
In the end times, there will be rumors of a patch-- but none shall come. And there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth across the lands. And still no patch shall come. And the poor suckers will start eating their children out of frustrated desperation. And yet-- no patch shall come. Alas the end of days shall be dark and horrible.
DragonCat
11-02-2002, 00:51
Baron NoGood,
The reference to "green bananas" is a sly reference to the fact that one may die soon and so would be well advised not to get into anything that may take a long wait - such as not buying green bananas as you may not live long enough for them to ripen.
I should hope now that the application of this reference to this thread is obvious http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Bonus points to the person who can come up with the celebrity who first famously used this reference. . .
------------------
DragonCat
. . . on the prowl!
Richard the Slayer
11-02-2002, 13:26
I think everyone needs to be patient with CA. If you saw it from their point of view their probably very stressed out with all the complaints and trying their best to come out with a quality patch without rushing a crappy patch out, then it would be patch after patch. I'm eager just like everyone else here but there plenty you can do until it does come out. Think about it this way, the longer we wait the better the patch will become and the more bugs will be corrected. On the other hand, I dont have any bugs playing the game so perhaps I'm not quite as upset as some other people, but that still doesnt mean that I'm not waiting desperately waiting so I can see better siege management, better multiplayer support and unit balances, etc.
Ciliegio
11-02-2002, 16:25
Well, my friend, i want to be patient...
I only want a period-date-release.
That's all. I dont want to think that they dont know at all at what point of testing they are at the moment.
It's not so much to ask for, isnt it?
Sword_Monkey
11-02-2002, 22:10
I am patient, but at this point, CA has written their own death warrant as a company in my mind. I lucked out with Shogun because I didn't buy it until the expansion, and I didn't buy that until it had been patched - I never saw any of the waits and complaints that went with that game.
So I bought MTW. Never again.
If it's taken them this long to NOT get a patch out, then they tried to fix too many things at once. That's not Activision's fault, that's CA's fault and I've got better things to do with my money than support a company that after already going through the release and patch cycle twice now can't improve upon their execution.
Quote Originally posted by Sword_Monkey:
I am patient, but at this point, CA has written their own death warrant as a company in my mind. I lucked out with Shogun because I didn't buy it until the expansion, and I didn't buy that until it had been patched - I never saw any of the waits and complaints that went with that game.
So I bought MTW. Never again.
If it's taken them this long to NOT get a patch out, then they tried to fix too many things at once. That's not Activision's fault, that's CA's fault and I've got better things to do with my money than support a company that after already going through the release and patch cycle twice now can't improve upon their execution.[/QUOTE]
Which shows exactly how much you know about the game development process - ZERO. It is the publisher who decides what to patch, how much to patch and how many patches to issue. CA presents all the issues, bugs, possible enhancements to Activision, and Activision tells them what they are willing to fund for a patch. Activision determines whether there will be one large patch, or several smaller patches.
FYI, I suspect that one reason this is taking so long is that Activision just wants ONE patch - so it is having to be a big one, fixing most if not all of the main issues. and that's why it is taking so long. I don't think we will see another after this, for better or worse.
Grifman
Niccolomachiavelli
11-02-2002, 22:49
Alright, so we've established Activision is a big giant asshat
*however*
Maybe CA wouldnt have to quibble with Activision in the first place if they had done a decent amount of play testing and resolved these issues pre-release.
When you consider that the people that show up and post here are the hardcore fans of the series, and that they are loosing confidence in CA and inActivision, what does that say for the general public, which buys MTW, has problems and looks for a patch - and does not find any ?
Look at it this way. They came out with a decent product (with some bugs) and have gotten paid. In this software industry sales are the driving force - not service.
Some companies like the producers of Master of Orion or Europa Universalis have very open forums and change thier product to meet demands. MOO3 was supposed to be released around april/may this year and is now shooting for Nov 26th. They did that because the finished design was not easily playable for the general public. So they went back, redesigned and replaytested. EU2 has been patched 5 times since its release last year on a regular basis.
So what you have is both ends of the spectrum, One game released and patched 5 times over a year to perfect it, and one game pushed back 6 months to avoid disappointed customers.
As a result both have very loyal fans that have patience KNOWING the developers are either making sure its right the first time OR fixing it as fast as they can. Either way the fans are kept in the loop with the forums. I know, I was there watching.
In opposition you have CA/Activision that have released MTW (with bugs/problems) and have not patched it yet. When I see CA's developers in this forum they are genuinely trying to help out. I'm sure the initial release was pressured from Activision and now CA dose not have control of the patch release dates either.
As in my original statement, Activision has recieved our $ at purchase and now the need for them to outlay $ for patching is not that important to them.
Shogun was very good. MTW is better, but I find myself looking at OTHER companies software because I know what ever they produce will either be great at purchase and/or patched quickly in response to the fan base. With MTW I find myself wondering if thier patch will be out this year (less than 2 months left) ? Either way I know my future purchase decisions will be impacted by two things. 1) Is this just a reskinning of an old game ? 2) HAVE THEY SUPPORTED THE EARLIER PRODUCTS THEY MADE IN A TIMELY MANNER. There are sooo many games out there to play/buy that I may wait for the eventual sale - 3/4 months later after release - when I can expect they have patched the game at least once. And the sad part is that doing this hurts people like CA when thier game is bought for $10-$20 less than MSRP by me.
I just hope that in coming months I can look back and feel as good about MTW/patching as I do about other games/manufacturers.
firebead
11-03-2002, 08:10
Guys, just take a break. There are so many good new games out there. I just picked up Age of Mythology. Though a different game from MTW, but I noticed the amount of attention the developer paid to details. Civ 3 Play the World was out too. I am waiting for the review, but hey, they already released a patch!
Haven't we learnt our lessons yet? If you don't want to waste your money, or getting pissed, then stick with more creditable companies like Ensembles, Blizzard, Black Isle Studios etc. It's kind of sad CA/Activision just turned so many of us down. But there are enough competitions out there, and I believe the lesser will eventually be out of business.
Cheers!
MagyarKhans Cham
11-03-2002, 09:14
Death, thats what i call a nice post. this game needs real competition like Quake vs Unreal.
"Some" say a patch needs a lot of time, esp for small compagnies...
"Some" say better have a decent patch that solves it all than a patch that doesnt.
imo the patching policy should have been:
1) fast patch release to solve the most annoying bugs SP and MP
2) second patch for balance issues
3) perhaps third patch for the minor things that pop ups.
I am aware i risk a ban but life is about gambling.
well id love to see a patch, and i think it would have been nice of activision not to make us all so peeved... anyway, fingers crossed for the patch in 2 weeks
Ive been noticing a disturbing trend in the gaming industry lately...
Games is shipped with flaws in order to meet its release date. Gamers buy game, fully expecting most issues to be worked out in patches. Publishers take the money and run- unwilling to was money on publishing patches since they generate no income.
Anyone else noticed this? It may or may not be the case here, but Ive seen it with several other games recently and am beginning to get a familiar feeling with MTW.
i think if they didn't care they would have just done a minimal patch to fix the major (crashing, not running, can't play mp) issues and left it at that. the fact that they are doing game balancing and gameplay fixes shows that to some extent, they do care.
the main reason i want the patch is so that when i'm fighing one of those 1000 vs 6000AI battles, it will withdraw its beat up units and bring on fresh ones...instead of doing the rally-route dance.
i am not yet among my coleauges of game design, and while i am just an amature "modder" i feel, due to the overwhelming response to this post, i must say something:
Publicists have the last say. reguardless of the developer's intents, the publicist's are the one who operate the legislature. it is, in truth, they who are the boss.
Magyar Kahn has quite a valid point; in case:if the caolic factions had better crusade plotting i would not avoid middle european catholic factions.but again, see above. this kind of minor coding infraction can easily (respectivly) be replaced.
i do wonder what else CA has on it's plate. for such a delay they must have another project to be working on. even without activisions support, CA could make public with an "unofficial patch" if their patch work was not completted. CA's boss, who restriced internet access to the employee, is a damn fool! where else will they find the public opinion on which their current "epic" survives? many of you are being overtly rash, but i cannot blame you for venting!
cold steel, long john, gil, thank you for your time, for it is much appreciated. all CA developers, thank you for your work. you have made a similar, yet completely evolved game! and when your your patch comes...
there will be much rejoicing, YAY!
and when the winter comes we will eat Robins's Minstriles and there will be much rejoicing, YAY!
oops, digression!
goddam guys, have paitence! bitch and moan all you want, for that is the point of a forum(even though the official forum has been deep sixed, apparently)! but do buy another game, that will get the "bosses" attention much more than any moaning you can do!
now, go out and buy mechwarrior mercinaries on the 8th!
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Postino
Derlivers Daily
[This message has been edited by Postino (edited 11-03-2002).]
Tap Tap Tap http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Sword_Monkey
11-04-2002, 01:24
Quote Originally posted by Grifman:
Which shows exactly how much you know about the game development process - ZERO. It is the publisher who decides what to patch, how much to patch and how many patches to issue. CA presents all the issues, bugs, possible enhancements to Activision, and Activision tells them what they are willing to fund for a patch. Activision determines whether there will be one large patch, or several smaller patches.[/QUOTE]Actually, it has nothing to do with whose fault it is in the official vein. That's the great thing about being the consumer, I owe them exactly nothing beyond my initial outlay of cash for the game. They, on the other hand, do owe me a product that meets some basic expectations (and mine aren't particularly high) or they failed to meet their end of the bargain. Most games have much less than a 45 day lifespan on a hard drive, no producer or publisher can afford to be working on a 90 day patch plan and expect to accomplish anything other than bleeding money on the patch development. I've already stopped playing MTW, I may or may not pick it back up again. With plenty of other games out there, odds are I won't, at least not for several months. And when I see Total War three years from now, I'll remember their support history, and I'll give it a pass just because I don't need this sort of frustration: almost a great game, almost...
When there are developers out there like SSG who continue to develop, test, and release patches long after the publishers have washed their hands of the product and who continue to add content to the game long after the publishers have washed their hands of the product, I don't have to put up with a developer who lets the publisher control everything. They could have leaked beta patch after beta patch at this point, had feedback as well as happier customers, but they've chosen to let Activision control everything - that does reflect upon CA whether you personally hold it against them or not.
Activision has earned my ire many times in the past, I don't expect anything from them, and I don't buy anything from them either unless I have reason to believe the producers will push their patches past Activisions reluctance to spend any money on support. Raven managed to get two patches out for SOF2 through Activision in half the time it's taken CA to get zero. You can't lay everything on Activision's head - whether they only want to support one patch or not, the delays to even finishing the patch and the delays in testing that patch do reflect upon CA's end of the production. Ritual continued to patch and refine their Sin games for over a year after Activision blew them off on the support side.
CA now has proven themselves to focus on adding features instead of polishing existing features and being extremely slow at fixing what were pretty obvious bugs (Crusader pathfinding and building valor bug) - these weren't things that should have been in the final code with any sort of QA. Activision may have forced it out the door, but CA put those flaws there in the first place.
MagyarKhans Cham
11-04-2002, 03:19
I like esp that lifespan part, never thought of it in that way
Quote Originally posted by Sword_Monkey:
I am patient, but at this point, CA has written their own death warrant as a company in my mind. I lucked out with Shogun because I didn't buy it until the expansion, and I didn't buy that until it had been patched - I never saw any of the waits and complaints that went with that game
So I bought MTW. Never again.
If it's taken them this long to NOT get a patch out, then they tried to fix too many things at once. That's not Activision's fault, that's CA's fault and I've got better things to do with my money than support a company that after already going through the release and patch cycle twice now can't improve upon their execution.[/QUOTE]
I will say this. I think if it were up to CA the patch would be in our hands now. But Activision is sitting on it, or jerking them around by making them fix things I would be happy to live with for awhile if it fixed the major problems I am having. Also, CA is probably being forced into making a huge patch that fixes tons of things, instead of just fixing the essentials first, because Activision doesn't want to have to fork over the cash for two patches to be put out in rapid succession. I dont agree with it, and I hate it, but CA probably doesn't have alot of control at this point.
Kraellin
11-04-2002, 07:31
there seems to be a misconception about how the patching process works for a game. a game goes gold. that means the dev guys are done with it and it goes to the distributor for copying, boxing and distribution and maybe some testing in-house. consumer buys it, notices bugs, design flaws, wish list stuff and reports same. distributor, money backers or dev guys say, ok, we need a patch. patch gets worked on and is sent to distributor for testing. distrib sends it back and says, ok, that's better and so is this, but now you also need to fix this and that and the other. dev guys work on it, send it back to distrib, distrib tests it, sends it back to dev with more corrections needed, dev guys work on it, send it back and so on and so on and so on. EACH ONE OF THOSE STEPS CAN EASILY TAKE A WEEK OR MORE!
now, the arguement has been made that why not just release each new one of these sub-patches to the public so that the consumer does get some relief from obvious bugs. it's not a bad arguement and does make some sense. however, that means that you then get a multiplayer game where your version of the game is changing every two weeks or so and now, 6 weeks later, there are 4 versions of the game out to try and match up players with. no version will play with the other version in multi, remember? god, i cant tell you how many folks i had to tell in the multi foyer over the years to 'get patched'. "why cant i see any games?", "what does this version mismatch error mean?", "why cant i see any games?", "why cant i join any games?" ....ad nauseum.
to me, this issue is a case of careful what you wish for; you might get it. apparently, the controlling body of the game also believes that it's easier, or cheaper, or safer, or something, to also do things as one or two larger patches than a whole series of smaller ones.
i'm one of the guys that worked on the 1.02 patch. we were lucky there, in that that was an 'unofficial' patch, and it therefore didnt have to go to EA each time it was worked on. it just went directly back and forth between the CA guys and the testers. but this forthcoming one is an official patch and must follow the procedures of going back and forth. we dont really know what activision's procedures are for testing, nor how much of a code-job this is for CA. we're in the dark, so we have a tendency to just fill in the blanks of information ourselves, and often not in a good way.
i've done alpha testing, beta testing, post release testing and even wrote my own game once. the public's general perception of coding tends to be something like, 'well, how hard can it be; just write a few lines of code, make some pretty pictures and sound files, and in a week you shld have a finished product. i mean, god is supposed to have created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, why is it taking you guys so long?' lol.
coding is something like, let's build a mountain, or better yet, let's build a mountain range, but rather than just instantly say 'poof!' and there's your mountain, you have to first create physics, and chemistry, and astro physics and geometry and math and algebra and somehow get them to all cooperate with each other and mesh and integrate and build some tools with these and then use those tools to build other tools with with you can create your first stone or grain of sand for the mountain. then you have to copy the stone over and over and stack them and re-work the physics a bit more and then the chemistry some more and then try and define what a stone is, or maybe what the 'snow' is on the mountaintop.
the rumor mill says that this game has over 800,000 lines of code. i dont know if that's true or not. like i said, we tend to fill in the gaps of info when no informed source says anything. but that's the rumor....800,000 lines of code. have you ever tried to debug a fairly simple visual basic 6 program? ever written a little application in C or even something simple like a batch file and then gone back and tried to fix it? it's utterly amazing what putting a semi-colon in place of where a comma shld be can do to a piece of code, particularly one as large as this one. and have you ever then tried to go back and find that one errant semi-colon? now multiply that by about 100,000 and you've some tiny idea of what these guys do.
so, i can wait. and hats off to the folks at CA who have done and continue to do a VERY remarkable job in what is actually a remarkably short period of time! i can wait.
K.
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http://home.domaindlx.com/takiyama/kraellin/icons-1.gif
Krae, you are completely right... working on a patch for a publisher is a hard and long work...
But damn, when you see Blizzard pump out a patch on the first day that fixes the big issues and then over the course of the next year another five or so to balance and fix smaller bugs... Well, then people get mad that the big bug aren't finished soon.
Blizzard is not a big company, they are getting bigger, but they are 'only' some 50 persons working on the main projects.
I think the main problem is that inActivision was allowed to have such a large part in patching. CA should have stood firm and told them that they could harvest the money but shouldn't meddle in the working of the support of the game (which doesn't make money btw).
Win/win/win situation. InActivision still get the money, CA feel they have done a good job and we get out patch(s).
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
MagyarKhans Cham
11-04-2002, 08:21
imo the patching policy should have been:
1) fast patch release to solve the most annoying bugs SP and MP
2) second patch for balance issues
3) perhaps third patch for the minor things that pop ups.
is that considered to be spamming?
Sword_Monkey
11-04-2002, 09:31
While it's entertaining to read the daily doses of CA/Activision apologists on here explaining the nuances of the game industry to the rest of us as though we were idiots, these excuses were really only good for the first four weeks after release. If you guys giving them are still buying them, please come out from your rocks and buy and play some more games.
Too many game producers manage to support their games better than CA has with or without interference/support from the publisher in the exact same market with equally small dev teams. Those teams that can get those patches done and out the door even when they're leaked are the ones the fans remember and support. Those teams that take forever to patch a game until you already deleted it off your hard drive in frustration waiting go back to writing database code for the local banks.
MagyarKhans Cham
11-04-2002, 17:08
sadly TW-history have shown u only get a patch when u whine and moan and not when u just sit and wait.
Where is teh patch anyway, any news on teh release date?
DD has posted in his forum we will get it this week...
I wonder if it is correct, but he does have a little contact with InActivision. And Piper might have dropped an e-mail to him.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Dreyland
11-05-2002, 09:55
You know, I think a lot of people are getting frustrated because this is honestly a great, fun game. It's got depth in several ways and the multiplayer is a joy to play.
Just a guess, but I'm as impatient as anyone else. If they can fix MP I'll be back for a long time.
Swoosh So
11-05-2002, 14:26
Quote Originally posted by Niccolomachiavelli:
closed, locked, finito
this thread fails[/QUOTE]
Hehe
HopAlongBunny
11-05-2002, 15:13
I have only had the game for a little over a month. I know some of you have been waiting much longer for the patch. It is my experience that when companies are diddling around with excuses "issues" "internet bans" and the like....t he message is clear:
Push it back!
Push it back!
Push it waaayyyy back!!
Quote sadly TW-history have shown u only get a patch when u whine and moan and not when u just sit and wait.
Where is teh patch anyway, any news on teh release date?
[/QUOTE]
Maggy, that could just be a case of stupidity reinforcing itself...
Swoosh So
11-05-2002, 15:56
Krae its all right saying wait but this lengthy patching process has F*&k*D up the online community already, Im not even online playing but already i see the changes, Get the game patch the happy peeps will follow.
My advice leave the game. forget about it totally till the patch comes out, I see peeps who used to be friends flaming each other (just for something to do?), Yes put that cd back in its box, no go on do it, it will be ok.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Easy for me to say because i goto africa on thursday http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 11-05-2002).]
cart6566
11-05-2002, 20:17
*sigh*
Another day, another sea battle DTC...
Fearless
11-05-2002, 20:46
I blame CA they shouldn't have develope such a fantastic, stupendous, awe inspiring, bloody marvellous gaming experience in the first place...................we should of all stuck with.......dare I say it.......Age of Empires........SIGH!
GilJaysmith
11-05-2002, 21:07
Quote Originally posted by HopAlongBunny:
I have only had the game for a little over a month. I know some of you have been waiting much longer for the patch. It is my experience that when companies are diddling around with excuses "issues" "internet bans" and the like....[/QUOTE]
I can't tell for sure whether this is serious, but I won't let it go without comment. No-one from CA has *ever* used an 'internet ban' as an excuse for the patch's lateness. And 'issues' are not an 'excuse', they are the *reason* for the delay. If Activision wants something changed in the patch and we think it's fine the way it is, or vice versa, then we have to talk about it. There's no Hogwarts Sorting Hat which magically indicates The Right Thing To Do so we can all nod sagely and say Of Course, We'll Just Do That. We have to discuss it, and then we either agree or we agree to disagree. This is taking a lot longer than we'd all prefer, but that's the way it's turned out this time.
Gil ~ CA
Olaf the Unsure
11-05-2002, 21:24
Actually, not everyone has his (or her) panties in a wad over the patch. Better right than fast. It will arrive in time. Until then, EU2 is great fun.
[This message has been edited by Olaf the Unsure (edited 11-05-2002).]
we can see that the game is at least being patched! to be honest the process has started and i dont believe that us bitching about it will do anything to hurry it! i know people have said it before but, us online guys are a tiny market for activision. they wont say "oh no ******* is spitting his dummy at the org, i know lets work all night instead" all we can do is wait http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
We need to be constructive not critical, otherwise we wont have the luxury of the little info we have already, let alone them patching the things that we (MP) think need patching!
Gil can i ask if activision or CA have priorities set by customer satisfaction? if so, then what can we do to change this priority?
K is that right that there 800,000 lines of code? thats near on microsoft word standards http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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previously BarryNoDachi - KenchiBND
Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
Niccolomachiavelli
11-05-2002, 22:41
At least in my case, I'm not angry about the delays in the patch. I understand there are all sorts of hoops to jump through when dealing with a giant like Activision. My primary qualm is with the seemingly non-existant amount of play testing. Almost any amount of play testing would have revealed many of these bugs. A solid week dedicated to playing through campaign would have elucidated them to all sorts of problems. Unfortunetaly it was us who had to find the bugs.
I take it for granted any game I buy will have bugs. Games are intensly complicated and many bugs are unpreventable due to the complexity of the code and the number of system configurations which will be running the software, but when the number of bugs make the game almost (and in some cases completely) unplayable, then the product is damaged. I'm angry because this product was shipped damaged and could have been shipped useable had they simply tested it before it was shipped. I have no place to complain about how long the patch is taking, but I do have a place to complain about the sheer necessity the patch embodies, when it shouldnt.
GilJaysmith
11-05-2002, 23:06
Quote Originally posted by baz:
Gil can i ask if activision or CA have priorities set by customer satisfaction? if so, then what can we do to change this priority?
[/QUOTE]
I've no idea about Activision's priorities or how to change them...
Technically CA has very limited public customer satisfaction priorities, as we have no official public interface except for our website, and that's supposed to be a source of information rather than dialogue. As with most games companies, we concentrate on writing the games, and our publishers do everything else. In practice some of us think we can get more direct feedback by monitoring the forums ourselves, and we can be more useful when you have problems if we talk directly (ish) to you.
(Personally, I used to do tech support as well as writing compilers and linkers, and I hugely enjoy helping people and representing for a company - although I'd prefer to be as much in control of the situation now as I was then http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Upshot: I amn't sure how much you can influence Activision just now, but serenading them with sweet music might just work, as people here have reported a lack of success with all the obvious approaches.
Quote
K is that right that there 800,000 lines of code? thats near on microsoft word standards http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
[/QUOTE]
The current stats are 811,916 lines of source across 773 files, totalling just under 23Mb of source. To coin a phrase, we've created a monsta...
What are these issues pertaining to gameplay that are at the heart of these discussions between CA and Activision?
And yet we wait for patch http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Dionysus9
11-05-2002, 23:37
Quote Originally posted by Kraellin:
. . . now, the arguement has been made that why not just release each new one of these sub-patches to the public so that the consumer does get some relief from obvious bugs. it's not a bad arguement and does make some sense. however, that means that you then get a multiplayer game where your version of the game is changing every two weeks or so and now, 6 weeks later, there are 4 versions of the game out to try and match up players with. no version will play with the other version in multi, remember? god, i cant tell you how many folks i had to tell in the multi foyer over the years to 'get patched'. "why cant i see any games?", "what does this version mismatch error mean?", "why cant i see any games?", "why cant i join any games?" ....ad nauseum. . . .
[/QUOTE]
Easy easy solution there Krae. Just make the server auto-update your version when you log on. That way we can all be happy.
But instead we have to wait...
pooh, I say.
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Bacchus
----
In the end times, there will be rumors of a patch-- but none shall come. And there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth across the lands. And still no patch shall come. And the poor suckers will start eating their children out of frustrated desperation. And yet-- no patch shall come. Alas the end of days shall be dark and horrible.
Dionysus9
11-05-2002, 23:44
My big problem is the # of multiplayer server bugs. I don't know if its CA, Activision, or Gamespy's to blame.
My computer should not crash 1/5 of the time I try to host a game. If a player gets dropped from the game it should not crash 7 other peoples computers.
This is a big problem and it has scared away COUNTLESS interested players.
I'm not mad anymore, I just think its sad that a game with so much potential ran out of steam so early.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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Bacchus
----
In the end times, there will be rumors of a patch-- but none shall come. And there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth across the lands. And still no patch shall come. And the poor suckers will start eating their children out of frustrated desperation. And yet-- no patch shall come. Alas the end of days shall be dark and horrible.
Teutonic Knight
11-06-2002, 00:14
um... this question was answered a while ago on the org just go to the website....it's on the front page......... (stop thread now before it becomes as long as "the myth of the cavalry charge!)
ITS out get it here..... http://www.fileplanet.com/download.aspx?f=116527
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