Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic [Archive]

Vladimir

09-17-2008, 15:25

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/2976009/Russia-threatens-to-seize-swathe-of-Arctic.html

"We must finalise and adopt a federal law on the southern border of Russia's Arctic zone," Mr Medvedev told a meeting of the Security Council, in remarks carried by Interfax news agency.

"This is our responsibility, and simply our direct duty, to our descendents," he said. "We must surely, and for the long-term future, secure Russia's interests in the Arctic."

Global warming has stepped up the fight for the disputed Arctic, believed to be laden with vast reserves of oil and gas. Russia has pitted itself against Canada, Denmark, Norway and the United States to fight for a greater part of the region, arguing that most of it is Russian territory since an underwater ridge links Siberia to the North Pole's seabed.

The whole flag planting farce was already posted here before but this is an update. Note the line:
Vladimir Putin, now Russia's prime minister, has said global warming is good for Russia

Could you imagine the response if a U.S. politician said that?

CBR

09-17-2008, 15:43

Russia likes to talk big.

Here is a nice map (PDF) over the regions and various claims: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/graphics/2008/08/06/eaarctic106.pdf

CBR

HoreTore

09-17-2008, 15:55

I don't really see why I should be upset that Russia is also making rightful claims to the arctic...

JR-

09-17-2008, 16:05

who wants a bet that russia's submission to the 'international arctic borders committee' are not looking too favourable right now, hence the diplomatic willy waving?

Devastatin Dave

09-17-2008, 16:15

I don't really see why I should be upset that Russia is also making rightful claims to the arctic...

Oil... I know you would prefer to pretend oil isn't important and its all evil and so forth, but you have to be completely insane, especially living in Europe, to not care if Russia claims another area rich with a energy resourse. Wait till they turn off the natural gas to you guys then you might think differently

CBR

09-17-2008, 16:21

As long as its rightful claims then all is fine. I doubt Russia really want to annoy the 4 other countries that are all NATO members and one happening to be a superpower.

CBR

Sarmatian

09-17-2008, 16:30

lars573

09-17-2008, 16:33

Russia likes to talk big.

Here is a nice map (PDF) over the regions and various claims: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/graphics/2008/08/06/eaarctic106.pdf

CBR
I've seen that. And to think Canada and Denmark are involved in a wizzing match over control of that corridor between Baffin Island and Greenland. :dizzy2: The arctic, the next colonial scramble. :wall:

Oil...
If only that's all it was about. It's also about potential shipping lanes through the arctic ocean. If warming trends continue the north-west passage will be navigable year round. Which will cut the journey from asia to europe by ship by thousands of kilometres and cut millions in fuel costs.

HoreTore

09-17-2008, 16:41

Oil... I know you would prefer to pretend oil isn't important and its all evil and so forth, but you have to be completely insane, especially living in Europe, to not care if Russia claims another area rich with a energy resourse. Wait till they turn off the natural gas to you guys then you might think differently

CBR and Sarmatian has it spot on. They have the same right to make a claim to the arctic as every other country bordering the region, why on earth shouldn't they be allowed to make a just claim to it?

Do we have one set of rules for "us good guys", and another one for "those evil guys"?

also, we aren't importing any oil or gas from russia, we have more than enough of it already ~;) and Sarmatian, be quiet, those are secret plans!!!11

Vladimir

09-17-2008, 16:47

I didn't see anything in the text or in the quoted words of Medvedev that justifies title of the text:
"Russia threatens to seize swathe of Arctic
President Dmitry Medvedev said that Russia should unilaterally claim part of the Arctic, stepping up the race for the disputed energy-rich region." But, then again, I don't see every action of Russia as a deceit that's taking it one step closer to its ultimate goal which is of course world domination...

There are several more nations that had laid claims to the Arctic, Vladimir. Should we make several more threads, one for every nation that has laid claims?

Those bloodthirsty Norwegians! They've remembered their Viking roots, and now want to rule the seas like they once have. Claiming the Arctic is just a first step. We're all doomed, doomed, I tell you... :laugh4:

How else would you interpret it?

CBR and Sarmatian has it spot on. They have the same right to make a claim to the arctic as every other country bordering the region, why on earth shouldn't they be allowed to make a just claim to it?

Do we have one set of rules for "us good guys", and another one for "those evil guys"?

also, we aren't importing any oil or gas from russia, we have more than enough of it already ~;) and Sarmatian, be quiet, those are secret plans!!!11

They've previously made the claim, now they're threatening to take it by force.

yesdachi

09-17-2008, 16:55

I thought that area was already claimed.
EDIT: Removed hotlinked picture of Santa Claus. Please host pictures yourself. BG

Tribesman

09-17-2008, 17:00

They've previously made the claim, now they're threatening to take it by force.
~:rolleyes:
Are they really .

Louis VI the Fat

09-17-2008, 17:06

Vladimir Putin, now Russia's prime minister, has said global warming is good for Russia

Could you imagine the response if a U.S. politician said that?I think the world would rejoice - it would mean one step up for Washington from ignoring global warming. :smash:

Viking

09-17-2008, 17:08

I think the world would rejoice - it would mean one step up for Washington from ignoring global warming. :smash:

:laugh4:

CrossLOPER

09-17-2008, 17:21

Those monsters! EVIL. EVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIL!

Martok

09-17-2008, 18:09

I think the world would rejoice - it would mean one step up for Washington from ignoring global warming. :smash:
....And a point to Louis! I think that's going down as my quote of the week. :laugh4:

KarlXII

09-17-2008, 18:50

I very much doubt this is something we need to be concerned about. Hell, many nations have claims to the Arctic. I believe we have more to worry about with Canada:

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=497c719f-a5be-4691-86f4-30ec877101a7&k=77

Wise words from a wise man:

"either we use it or we lose it," said Harper. "And make no mistake, this government intends to use it"

HoreTore

09-17-2008, 19:02

They've previously made the claim, now they're threatening to take it by force.

So? Are you concerned that they'll exterminate the naive humans living on the north pole? :inquisitive:

Sarmatian

09-17-2008, 19:14

How else would you interpret it?

They've made the claim and they're stating that they're committed to it. Nothing sensational there... PR move, aimed at Russians...

HoreTore

09-17-2008, 19:23

They've made the claim and they're stating that they're committed to it. Nothing sensational there... PR move, aimed at Russians...

Well, it is pretty damn clear that if the arctic is to be divided, Russia deserves a huge chunk of it. I can't see how anyone can justify another solution.

However, Russia is seen as a bad boy these days, so for them to actually get what is right in an orderly and timely manner, I believe they have to be a lot more aggressive than they have been.

Sarmatian

09-17-2008, 19:26

I think this is more PR move for Russian public, as it seems it was primarily aimed at them. But, it could be that this is also a statement that they won't be cheated out of their part...

HoreTore

09-17-2008, 19:30

I think this is more PR move for Russian public, as it seems it was primarily aimed at them. But, it could be that this is also a statement that they won't be cheated out of their part...

Sounds a lot like what my government is doing.... There won't be any threads about that though, we're the good guys :smash:

Vladimir

09-17-2008, 19:58

Sounds a lot like what my government is doing.... There won't be any threads about that though, we're the good guys :smash:

Says who? 911 AD, never forget! :viking:

Anyway, yea, Russia = Bad. The more power they acquire, the more of a threat they are. I see this move as a threat because I have a basic understanding of their history. It is also against the best interest of most people here to include myself.

KarlXII

09-17-2008, 20:26

Says who? 911 AD, never forget! :viking:

Anyway, yea, Russia = Bad. The more power they acquire, the more of a threat they are. I see this move as a threat because I have a basic understanding of their history. It is also against the best interest of most people here to include myself.

Yes, once the Russians launch their polar nukes, we will look at this thread and say "WE SHOULD HAVE LISTENED! WE SHOULD HAVE LISTENED!"

:drama2:

CrossLOPER

09-17-2008, 21:16

Says who? 911 AD, never forget! :viking:

Anyway, yea, Russia = Bad. The more power they acquire, the more of a threat they are. I see this move as a threat because I have a basic understanding of their history. It is also against the best interest of most people here to include myself.
Yes. The West will tremble before the Russian Army when they capture the arctic and deploy the dreaded Snow Cannons of Doom.

Sarmatian

09-17-2008, 21:33

Says who? 911 AD, never forget! :viking:

Anyway, yea, Russia = Bad. The more power they acquire, the more of a threat they are. I see this move as a threat because I have a basic understanding of their history. It is also against the best interest of most people here to include myself.

Well, you've said it all - basic understanding. And what's that in Russian history that is so scary and should make us all afraid? (I have a scary feeling that Krook is going to appear and answer this one)

HoreTore

09-17-2008, 21:49

Anyway, yea, Russia = Bad. The more power they acquire, the more of a threat they are. I see this move as a threat because I have a basic understanding of their history. It is also against the best interest of most people here to include myself.

So.... By that logic, we should all divide up all of Russia's territory and enslave the population...?

CrossLOPER

09-17-2008, 21:50

So.... By that logic, we should all divide up all of Russia's territory and enslave the population...?
No, because then the Chinese will get you.... apparently.

HoreTore

09-17-2008, 21:55

No, because then the Chinese will get you.... apparently.

Yes, well... We'll divide and enslave the chinese too, then?

Husar

09-17-2008, 22:03

That the dollar has a better standing to the Euro than 10 Dollars for a Euro is also against my best interest but I try to keep it to myself. ~D
So why would the US have a claim in the Arctic? Apart from that backwater Alaska thing up north, the US main land is nowhere near the arctic. And on top of that they bought Alaska from them evil imperial russians who would never give away any of their land....oh...wait...they bought....never mind...

KarlXII

09-17-2008, 22:24

So.... By that logic, we should all divide up all of Russia's territory and enslave the population...?

Shhhh.....we'd be "civilizing"

Ice

09-18-2008, 01:45

And on top of that they bought Alaska from them evil imperial russians who would never give away any of their land....oh...wait...they bought....never mind...

Lmao, are you comparing 19th century Russia to 21st century Russia?

Husar

09-18-2008, 10:38

Lmao, are you comparing 19th century Russia to 21st century Russia?

I wasn't the one who started the "Russia has a history of..." talk and comparing 21st century Russia to 20th century Russia.

HoreTore

09-18-2008, 14:07

I wasn't the one who started the "Russia has a history of..." talk and comparing 21st century Russia to 20th century Russia.

Yes you were. Don't be a lying nazi. ~;)

CrossLOPER

09-18-2008, 14:09

Oh no you didn't.

Viking

09-18-2008, 17:19

There are other things with Russia that are...more worrying.

Praxil

09-22-2008, 11:24

Title is badly off, I think Russian current leadership naturally wants whatever areas it wants in Arctic to get even more natural resources than it possesses at the moment. I understand these feelings perfectly.

Wait till they turn off the natural gas to you guys then you might think differently

Yeah, here we go...

What is the problem with this that I keep hearing all the time from some politicians too, "Russia turns off gas and oil delivery as it pleases". Booo freaking Hooo!!!

These companies acting in Russia extracting and exporting oil and gas to whoever buys. They are unreliable, right? They might cut off the delivery as they please, right? So, they are breaking contracts, right?

If this is the case, then for breaking the contracts simply sue these companies. There are numerous international courts out there for these things available on daily basis.

If a supplier is unreliable and can't deliver these raw materials as it was agreed to do, then SIMPLY get a new one!

I heard Saudi Arabia had some oil, Iraq had some oil, Iran had some gas and oil.

Some people don't understand the fact that there are no global markets for raw materials. Raw materials has always been sold on monopoly markets between nations. In monopoly markets you're not in a position to open your mouth, because there is no competition at all.

These nations buying oil and gas from companies exporting these raw materials from Russia. If not satisfied in a case then they need to shut up and get new suppliers.

I don't get this whining at all.

I’m referring, among other things, to Russia’s intimidation of its sovereign neighbors, its use of oil and gas as a political weapon,http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2008/09/109954.htm

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Simply pathetic! If these "sovereign nations" feel like this, then get new supplier and shut up.

Damn populism spreads around the world like a plague these days.

HoreTore

09-23-2008, 03:09

Yeah...........

Actually, unless you haven't noticed, oil is a rather rare and expensive resource these days. It's not so simple to "just get a new supplier", it's not like if you hate the oranges in store 1 you can simply go to store 2. A big supplier like Russia shutting down exports for a period of time would cause MASSIVE problems for just about everyone who isn't self-sufficient with oil.

EDIT: Also, legal threats? You think you can sue Putin if he decides to be an ass and he will stop? :dizzy2:

JR-

09-23-2008, 09:40

Title is badly off, I think Russian current leadership naturally wants whatever areas it wants in Arctic to get even more natural resources than it possesses at the moment. I understand these feelings perfectly.

Yeah, here we go...

What is the problem with this that I keep hearing all the time from some politicians too, "Russia turns off gas and oil delivery as it pleases". Booo freaking Hooo!!!

These companies acting in Russia extracting and exporting oil and gas to whoever buys. They are unreliable, right? They might cut off the delivery as they please, right? So, they are breaking contracts, right?

If this is the case, then for breaking the contracts simply sue these companies. There are numerous international courts out there for these things available on daily basis.

If a supplier is unreliable and can't deliver these raw materials as it was agreed to do, then SIMPLY get a new one!

I heard Saudi Arabia had some oil, Iraq had some oil, Iran had some gas and oil.

Some people don't understand the fact that there are no global markets for raw materials. Raw materials has always been sold on monopoly markets between nations. In monopoly markets you're not in a position to open your mouth, because there is no competition at all.

These nations buying oil and gas from companies exporting these raw materials from Russia. If not satisfied in a case then they need to shut up and get new suppliers.

I don't get this whining at all.

http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2008/09/109954.htm

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Simply pathetic! If these "sovereign nations" feel like this, then get new supplier and shut up.

Damn populism spreads around the world like a plague these days.
even the threat of halted oil/gas supplies can cause advanced economies to lose billions, and it simply isn't that easy to switch suppliers.

Sarmatian

09-23-2008, 13:29

I think Praxil's point was switch now, and don't put yourself in a position that someone could cut off oil, but that is expensive and impractical. Switch to which country? Venezuela, Iran? They're more reliable than Russia?

But it is highly illogical that Russia cuts of oil and gas to EU. Both EU and Russia would lose billions. The only scenario in which that can happen is an all-out war...

Louis VI the Fat

09-23-2008, 14:30

If a supplier is unreliable and can't deliver these raw materials as it was agreed to do, then SIMPLY get a new one!

[...]

Some people don't understand the fact that there are no global markets for raw materials. Raw materials has always been sold on monopoly markets between nations.Erm...okay. So which one is it? A monoploy market, or a multiple supplier market?

they need to shut up and get new suppliers

[...]

In monopoly markets you're not in a position to open your mouth, because there is no competition at allErm...okay. So which one is it? Should we shut up at last, or are we not in a position to open our mouth?

Damn populism spreads around the world like a plague these days. Yeah, it's ridiculous, isn't it? Me, I'm not a big fan of simple solutions and lots of swearing myself either.

Praxil

09-23-2008, 17:35

Actually, unless you haven't noticed, oil is a rather rare and expensive resource these days. It's not so simple to "just get a new supplier", it's not like if you hate the oranges in store 1 you can simply go to store 2. A big supplier like Russia shutting down exports for a period of time would cause MASSIVE problems for just about everyone who isn't self-sufficient with oil.

even the threat of halted oil/gas supplies can cause advanced economies to lose billions, and it simply isn't that easy to switch suppliers.

You guys are living with an impression that these companies are doing community service for the whole world. That they MUST export these raw materials they have, because others don't have them. Quite an imaginations those are indeed.

In reality, they are exporting them, because that is profitable enough at the moment. They don't care who is in need or is in short of some raw materials. That is completely irrelevant. At least that's how it should be, since Soviet Union did whole heavy lifting and work for all communists in the world for free, for no profit at all. Russia in my opinion should cash in and keep milking, investing all that back in Russia. Saying that because for example biggest owner of Gazprom is Federal Russia, so no doubt that Federal Russia has something to say on board when new contracts are made and so on.

Yeah..............

I know perfectly the reasons behind all the bitterness and with rising populism over this "Russia" uses oil/gas as a political weapon. See despite for over 100 years of effort by certain nations, Russia still isn't that colonial area from where you can suck out every raw materials for free. Many tried hard, but that nation is still independent.

Just like the song goes...

"People fear what they don't understand, hate what they can't conquer"

HoreTore

09-23-2008, 17:52

Uh......

Now you lost me completely.

Strike For The South

09-23-2008, 18:36

You guys are living with an impression that these companies are doing community service for the whole world. That they MUST export these raw materials they have, because others don't have them. Quite an imaginations those are indeed.

In reality, they are exporting them, because that is profitable enough at the moment. They don't care who is in need or is in short of some raw materials. That is completely irrelevant. At least that's how it should be, since Soviet Union did whole heavy lifting and work for all communists in the world for free, for no profit at all. Russia in my opinion should cash out and keep milking, investing all that back in Russia. Saying that because for example biggest owner of Gazprom is Federal Russia, so no doubt that Federal Russia has something to say on board when new contracts are made and so on.

Yeah..............

I know perfectly the reasons behind all the bitterness and with rising populism over this "Russia" uses oil/gas as a political weapon. See despite for over 100 years of effort by certain nations, Russia still isn't that colonial area from where you can suck out every raw materials for free. Many tried hard, but that nation is still independent.

Just like the song goes...

"People fear what they don't understand, hate what they can't conquer"

Are you Russian?

yesdachi

09-23-2008, 18:49

I think Praxil's point was switch now, and don't put yourself in a position that someone could cut off oil...

It is a pretty good idea to diversify your supplier base anyhow even if it is a 90/10 split at least you have a resource that is already set in place to start drawing from. It is easier to double what you are receiving from vendor number two then to start working with a second vendor. It also lets vendor number one know that they need to stay fair. :bow:

Louis VI the Fat

09-23-2008, 18:58

Soviet Union did whole heavy lifting and work for all communists in the world for free, for no profit at all. No it didn't. The Soviet Union brutally oppressed half a continent.

I wish I could say that the Soviet Union paid the bill itself. But alas, not even this is true. Its perfidious oppression was to the tremendous economic detriment of the colonised nations. This quite apart from putting a monetary value on the human and ecological catastrophe of the Soviet experiment.

See despite for over 100 years of effort by certain nations, Russia still isn't that colonial area from where you can suck out every raw materials for free. Many tried hard, but that nation is still independent.Yeah, we tried. But we couldn't penetrate that great big defensive wall in Berlin. People kept being shot when they tried to sneak into East Berlin.

Uh......

Now you lost me completely. It's the real face of communism. Which you admire so much. :smash:

I'm already looking forward to how you are going to tell us that this has got nothing to do with communism, and that it is nationalism and if only the revolution had been in accordance with Trotskism-Leninism and