View Full Version : jewish spearman Aor
Vasiliyi
09-21-2008, 22:45
I'm currently playing an arche seleukia campaign and I've noticed that you can recruite jewish spearmen in babylon... in the most politest way I am asking how this is historically correct. Did jewish settlers live in babylon and offer themselves up for service? Thank you for enlightenening me in advance!
MeinPanzer
09-21-2008, 23:09
I'm currently playing an arche seleukia campaign and I've noticed that you can recruite jewish spearmen in babylon... in the most politest way I am asking how this is historically correct. Did jewish settlers live in babylon and offer themselves up for service? Thank you for enlightenening me in advance!
The short answer is that yes, there was quite a sizeable Jewish community in Babylon, and this population yielded fighting men. There are later mentions of Jewish cavalry being raised from Mesopotamia, but one of the most interesting sources relating to the Jewish soldiers of Babylonia is from 2 Maccabees 8, in which Judas Maccabaeus invokes the past victories of Jews over foreigners:
19 Moreover, he put them in mind also of the helps their fathers had received from God: and how, under Sennacherib, a hundred and eighty-five thousand had been destroyed. 20 And of the battle that they had fought against the Galatians, in Babylonia; how they, being in all but six thousand, when it came to the point, and the Macedonians, their companions, were at a stand, slew a hundred and twenty thousand, because of the help they had from heaven, and for this they received many favours.
This is referring to a sizeable Galatian invasion into Seleucid Babylonia which was resisted by its Macedonian and Jewish inhabitants (most likely of Seleucia-on-the-Tigris).
Vasiliyi
09-22-2008, 00:20
Very cool, thanks.
There had also been deportations from Judea to Babylon by the Persian Kings. Not sure who precisely, I believe it was Darius I.
Leviathan DarklyCute
09-23-2008, 00:20
There had also been deportations from Judea to Babylon by the Persian Kings. Not sure who precisely, I believe it was Darius I.
No, there were deportations from Israel by the Assyrians and from Judea by the Babylonians. It was the Persian King Cyrus that alow Jews to return to Israel/Judea.
keravnos
09-23-2008, 06:49
There are some cuniform Babylonian text that speaks of that period. Read it over at RAT forums. Damn, wish I had saved that link.
Nobody knew if the House of Seleukos would be around much longer at that time.
Theodotos I
09-23-2008, 17:06
There had also been deportations from Judea to Babylon by the Persian Kings. Not sure who precisely, I believe it was Darius I.
King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon conquered Jerusalem for the final time in I believe 586 BC, deporting all but the poorest of the people to Babylon. When Baylon fell to the Medes and the Persians, Cyrus permitted the Jews to return to their homelands, but not all of them left, some finding it more profitable to stay where they had set up shop during the seventy-year captivity. I could recommend Ezra, Nehemiah, II Kings, and Esther, on this period. The Bible is a relatively thorough resource on the subject.
Olaf The Great
09-23-2008, 20:11
https://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb12/jluce7_2007/JewJitsu.jpg Jewish Spearmen should be like this.
It would make sense for a unit like Jewish spearmen to have a (Relatively) wide AOR. As there were many of them in Syria, not just Jerusalem.
I think EB's current recruitment works.
gamegeek2
09-23-2008, 21:41
There had also been deportations from Judea to Babylon by the Persian Kings. Not sure who precisely, I believe it was Darius I.
No, many Jews had been enslaved by Babylon when the area was conquered by them. When Persia came along and conquered Babylon, Cyrus freed the Jews (Cyrus also never employed slavery, he paid all of his workers because he was so rich). He is considered the only gentile to be called "Messiah" (Savior), I believe.
Anastasios Helios
09-24-2008, 01:42
I love the Jewish Spearmen, they are great for protecting the flanks of my phalanx.
Offtopic a bit, but after a bit of a break i'm finally getting back into EB (1.1 woohoo!) and I wanted to know which provinces you can recruit the Jewish Spearmen in? Also, is it still possible to recruit Galatian Auxillaries in every province from Galatia in the West, to Babylon in the East, and Sudan in the South? It was always really annoying that every battle I fought in my Sabean campaign involved fending off army after army of fearsome naked Galatians and those awesome Galatian swordsmen. Besides getting my ass kicked more times than not, I felt like that I had to plan my strategies more around fighting Gauls than trying to fight Phalanx armies...
Leviathan DarklyCute
09-24-2008, 02:39
Why people like Jews here?
In every other place on the internet people can't stand them.
Aemilius Paulus
09-24-2008, 02:54
In every other place on the internet people can't stand them.
Huh? What kind of websites do you visit? NSM (Nationalist Socialist Movements):laugh4:? Most people are fine with Jews and the ones that aren't get smacked on the head by ADFL (Anti-Defamation League):laugh4:.
Anastasios Helios
09-24-2008, 04:34
My girlfriend is Jewish. You know what they say...
Once you go Jewish, you never go back. ^^
The Celtic Viking
09-25-2008, 12:34
The Bible is a relatively thorough resource on the subject.
LOL! Sorry to bust your balls here, but the bible is in no way a historical document. You cannot rely on it to learn history... or much anything, really. To quote Penn Jilette: "the bible contains equal amounts of truth, history and pizza".
LOL! Sorry to bust your balls here, but the bible is in no way a historical document. You cannot rely on it to learn history... or much anything, really. To quote Penn Jilette: "the bible contains equal amounts of truth, history and pizza".
First of all I'm not a Christian, nor am I an apologist, but though the Bible is mostly BS it does contain some even useful reference to historical events, like the one given by Mein Panzer in the beginning of this thread. However, trying derive historical truths about events that happened too long a time ago (such as the Exodus and Moses) based purely on the Bible is generally useless.
The Celtic Viking
09-25-2008, 13:07
First of all I'm not a Christian, nor am I an apologist, but though the Bible is mostly BS it does contain some even useful reference to historical events, like the one given by Mein Panzer in the beginning of this thread. However, trying derive historical truths about events that happened too long a time ago (such as the Exodus and Moses) based purely on the Bible is generally useless.
If there are sources outside of the bible, then use them instead. Your example of Moses and the exodus is great, since archaeology has proven that it never happened.
And when there aren't the Bible is a wonderful resource to help interpret archaelogical evidence. It was the biblical references to Ararat (the kingdom rather than the mountain) that helped to discover the lost civilisation of Urartu in Armenia.
Foot
SwissBarbar
10-01-2008, 10:36
Why people like Jews here?
In every other place on the internet people can't stand them.
people do not "not stand" the jews. Jews are nice. It's this freaky Anti-Defamation League, behaving like the holy inquisition, prohibit all even constructive criticism or generally all "dark doings" ^^ that do not fit the opinion of the STATE of Israel (not the jewish religion) and interfering state business of other countries. :whip: :whip: :whip:
And: dear ADFL... what happend in WWII was TERRIBLE ans should never be forgotten, but this was 60 years ago, stop try making young and noninvolved people still feel guilty about that.
lets have peace :2thumbsup:
ps: if you criticise this post, i will establish my own anti defamation league :inquisitive:
Don't discuss Israel and zionism and stuff here. We have a Backroom (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=19) for that.
If there are sources outside of the bible, then use them instead. Your example of Moses and the exodus is great, since archaeology has proven that it never happened.
How can archeology prove that Moses and Exodus never happened? Because the jews definetly were slaves to egypt who then had an exodus and went to israel.
The bible is an historical text, and there's much about ancient civilisation that would be unknown if not for the bible. There is however a lot of symbolism that needs to be interpretted in order to fully understand the bible.
How can archeology prove that Moses and Exodus never happened? Because the jews definetly were slaves to egypt who then had an exodus and went to israel.
Splitting an ocean in two.
Well actually, there's archeological evidence to support the sea opening a path for the jews. There's actually a book that explores the truths of the old testament with numerous archeological and geological findings. I remember it said that various egyption chariots, weapons and debris was found, preserved in the mud of the seabed, evidence that some sort of pursuit of the jews did take place. My memory of it is quite foggy, but I think the book also explains of how a volcano eruption (or was it meteorite?) caused a huge disturbance in the tidal patterns and how this could have possibly lead to the sea receding.
I should dig this book up and find out what it says. Please note that it's a book that looks at the archeological and geological facts and is not one that finds workarounds for the bible story to be able to fit into modern day science.
Aemilius Paulus
10-01-2008, 22:16
We have a Backroom (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=19) for that.
Speaking of the Backroom, how does one access it? It is marked as private and I cannot view it, let alone post there.
Well actually, there's archeological evidence to support the sea opening a path for the jews. There's actually a book that explores the truths of the old testament with numerous archeological and geological findings. I remember it said that various egyption chariots, weapons and debris was found, preserved in the mud of the seabed, evidence that some sort of pursuit of the jews did take place. My memory of it is quite foggy, but I think the book also explains of how a volcano eruption (or was it meteorite?) caused a huge disturbance in the tidal patterns and how this could have possibly lead to the sea receding.
I should dig this book up and find out what it says. Please note that it's a book that looks at the archeological and geological facts and is not one that finds workarounds for the bible story to be able to fit into modern day science.
I'm sorry, but how does the finding of chariots and weapons lead one to the conclusion that the jews were chased across there? That is proof of nothing except that chariots and weapons are being found at the bottom of the red sea. If the bible story didn't exist would there be any evidence to suggest that the jews crossed there? I doubt it.
Take for example one of the stories in Joshua, where in a southern campaign the israelite army captured the towns of Lachish and Debir (and others). Both Lachish and Debir show signs of destruction toward the end of the 13th cent. BC (the specific date for Debir is given as 1225BC), so it would follow that the Israelites, because of the OT story, were the cause behind such evidence. Yet there exists a victory stele of the Egytian Pharaoh Merneptah, dated 1223BC, that speaks of general plundering by Egyptians in the region of Lachish and Debir. Furthermore the "Sea Peoples" from across the mediterranean were settling the coast of Canaan in force. If we didn't have the OT story then suspicion for the destruction of Lachish and Debir would fall on the Egyptians or the "Sea People" not the Israelites. The OT is not an historical document, it was an oral tradition for centuries after the events that it claims to portray, and archaeology is the stick by which we must measure it, not the other way round.
Foot
SwissBarbar
10-02-2008, 00:41
example: "And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven."
not that historical, the bible is no historic proof but just a religious story, happening in historical periods of time
Right, what people do need to realise is that there has been very productive biblical scholarship. To talk about Michael as an example is really a strawman argument and hardly worthy of remark. We must treat the bible with the respect it deserves, both as an historical document of the nation of israel, and as a work of theology. However, to treat it with that respect we have to view it within the context that it was written and with the same critical practices that we use to evaluate any piece of classical literature.
Foot
Megas Methuselah
10-02-2008, 02:11
@SwissBarbar:
Dude, that's in the book of Revelation. Please, don't post on a subject if you don't entirely comprehend the circumstances behind it. The book of Revelation is mostly an apocalyptic prophesy which would take place in the future. That being so, please understand that this both didn't happen in and wasn't suppose to be understood as having taken place in history.
Listen to Foot. With his words of wisdom, he basically stomped you. :crowngrin:
Vasiliyi
10-02-2008, 03:05
i think this post needs to be locked before it gets out of hand....
Speaking of the Backroom, how does one access it? It is marked as private and I cannot view it, let alone post there.
Go to your User CP, group memberships, and apply there. Your application needs to approved by Ser Clegane, but that's usually a formality. Memberships of the Backroom comes with no obligations and can be cancelled at any time.
MarcusAureliusAntoninus
10-02-2008, 20:44
I'd say this thread is well off topic. The original question has been answered and the current discussion doesn't belong in this forum. :dancinglock:
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