axes/polearms vs spears/pikes/cavalry

[Brandy Blue]

Do axe/polearm infantry get a bonus vs spears/pikes, or do only sword infantry get that bonus?

Do cavalry units get a bonus vs. axe/polearm infantry, or do they only get that bonus vs sword infantry?

I always thought these bonuses only applied to sword infantry, but somebody told me they apply to axe/polearm infantry too.

[caravel]

Do axe/polearm infantry get a bonus vs spears/pikes, or do only sword infantry get that bonus
Infantry don't really get a bonus vs spears and pikes AFAIK it's just that spears/pikes' defence is usually pretty poor (negative) vs anything except cavalry. This gives swords, axes and polearms an advantage over them.


Do cavalry units get a bonus vs. axe/polearm infantry, or do they only get that bonus vs sword infantry?
Again it's not cavalry that get a bonus it's the axe units that don't have the defence vs cavalry bonus that spears and polearms do. This makes them very vulnerable to the initial charge of the cavalry unit. They are also more vulnerable if they are not in held formation when receiving the charge.


I always thought these bonuses only applied to sword infantry, but somebody told me they apply to axe/polearm infantry too.
Technically axes and swords are the same. It's just that axes tend to have the AP attribute added and swords don't (there are exceptions such as gallowglasses etc).

Basically there are four types of melee infantry unit (excluding any missiles or hybrids):

Sword: Non AP infantry without any anti cavalry defence or attack bonuses.
Spear/pike: Non AP infantry with large and small anti cavalry defence and attack bonuses.
Axe: AP infantry without any anti cavalry defence or attack bonuses.
Polearm: AP infantry with small and large anti cavalry defence and attack bonuses.

[drone]

Do axe/polearm infantry get a bonus vs spears/pikes, or do only sword infantry get that bonus?

Do cavalry units get a bonus vs. axe/polearm infantry, or do they only get that bonus vs sword infantry?

I always thought these bonuses only applied to sword infantry, but somebody told me they apply to axe/polearm infantry too.

Axes and swords do not get any bonuses against cavalry (apart from an AP bonus if applicable). I asked the question about axes getting the same bonus as swords against spear units, but I don't believe I got a definitive answer. Don't group axes with polearms, they may both be armour piercing but the similarities end there.

If the Gnome editor isn't lying to me:

Spears get +1 attack and +4 defense against cavalry
Pikes get +2 attack and +6 defense against cavalry
Polearms get +3 attack and +1 defense against cavalry (plus AP)

Not all "polearms" get the bonus, Urban Militia/Militia Sergeants only get the AP bonus, even though they are equipped with polearms. The bonuses vs cavalry for spears and pikes do not include the rank bonuses, these will stack on top.

The +1 bonus for swords against spears is hardcoded in the game I believe (added in a patch maybe?), which might explain why nobody knows if axes get the benefit as well. Unless I'm completely wrong about a bonus existing in the first place. :rolleyes:

[caravel]

Not all "polearms" get the bonus, Urban Militia/Militia Sergeants only get the AP bonus, even though they are equipped with polearms. The bonuses vs cavalry for spears and pikes do not include the rank bonuses, these will stack on top.
Yes, these are technically axes even though they look like polearms and their info parchment says polearms.


The +1 bonus for swords against spears is hardcoded in the game I believe (added in a patch maybe?), which might explain why nobody knows if axes get the benefit as well. Unless I'm completely wrong about a bonus existing in the first place. :rolleyes:

You're right that there is an additional hidden bonus for swords vs spears but I'm not sure either if that also applies to axes and polearms or not. It may not as it may be based on the "sword" designation in the unit prod file.

[CBR]

Although it's been a few years since I tested it IIRC all non-spear infantry has that semi +1 bonus versus spears. And it only counts as long as the front spearman has supporting spears behind him.


CBR

[drone]

Although it's been a few years since I tested it IIRC all non-spear infantry has that semi +1 bonus versus spears. And it only counts as long as the front spearman has supporting spears behind him.


CBR

Interesting. Someone (IIRC a CA developer) mentioned that the +1 was added to speed up the breakthrough of sword units into massed spears. Only adding the bonus against rank supported troops would do that without completely overbalancing it, so it makes sense. Wonder if this applies to "club" armed infantry (fanatics) as well as sword/axes...

[caravel]

IIRC the +1 melee bonus vs spears was quite unpopular in MP circles. It resulted in spear units being used seldom if at all in MP battles.

[CBR]

IIRC the +1 melee bonus vs spears was quite unpopular in MP circles. It resulted in spear units being used seldom if at all in MP battles.

Well it was not really that bonus that caused the problem in MP. There was a fine balance between the two unit types with spears being slightly stronger. But as spears cost more it meant it was cheaper to upgrade swords and just one valor in difference means swords have a clear advantage. Upgrading valor to 2-3 on FMAA and CMAA meant swords were strong enough to equal heavy cavalry so less need for spears.

So unit costs and the ability to screw up the balance between units with upgrades were the real culprits.


CBR

[Brandy Blue]

Thanks, everyone. It looks like there isn't a concensus about whether or not there are any bonuses for attacking swords attacking spears in the first place, never mind axes and polearms attacking spears. :dizzy2:

My best guess is that swords do differ from axes somewhere at the hard coded level, otherwise there would be no point in distinguishing swords from axes. After all, polearms are classified as axes and only differ because of added on anti-cavlary bonuses. Swords and axes could have been lumped together the same way, if the game designers felt like it, unless there is some distinction above and beyond the added on anti-armor bonus for axes. Therefore, a hard coded distinction between swords and axes is implied. :idea2:

But that's just guesswork, isn't it? :inquisitive:

[CBR]

That is as official as it can get: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=422816&postcount=21

Polearms might be classed as axe in the unit file but the comment in the spreadsheet, that CA used to produce the unitstats, states that the weapon class entry is mainly used for sound and if it is a spear unit or not. That does not mean there could be other stuff added later or simply not commented on of course.


CBR