Saka Reform Too Easy?

[Rodrico Stak]

I know that you're probably thinking, "What? How can anything with the Saka be too easy? They're one of the hardest factions in the game!" but I'm not complaining about the Saka being too easy. On the contrary, they are the hardest faction I have ever played and I'm having a great time learning them. However, its only been something like 20 turns so far, and I've already gotten the Indo-Saka reforms because I conquered Alexandria-Eschate on the second turn. I had expected to have to go much longer until I got these reforms, and so it surprrised me to get them so early, and when I have only 5 provinces, no less. Has anyone else felt this way, or am I just crazy?

[Anastasios Helios]

Well mate, I think that the basis of the Saka reforms are their penetration into the lands of India (either that or the conquest of Baktra...I forget exactly). Historically once they reached India the cultures merged and the peoples: Yavanas (Greeks), Indians, and Skythians mixed and I would guess that's why you see units like the Indo-hellenic Hoplites. I'm a bit shaky on the subject, but it's really cool and interesting.

[lobf]

They mixed in less than half a decade?

[Ravenic]

I admit that compared to the other reforms the Saka Reforms do seem uncharacteristically easy to obtain.

Lets see...Saka reforms require four winters in a certain town that is very near your starting position...Imperial reforms require something like 500 turns, 40 regions, 100 battles, and a combination of traits in a single character near impossible to come by.

[keravnos]

Well, any faction is different and any reform they have is what happened to them historically.

Seleukeis got their Kataphraktoi, Makedones got their Hysteroi Pezhetairoi etc.

The fact that Marian reforms are so much difficult to get, and Imperials after that stems directly from what happened historically.

Saka, well, once in India, they became something else entirely, first the Western Ksatrapas and after on they became forefathers of the Rajputs (along with others) and as them, they still exist today.

They did change a lot when they went to India, and the reforms are just a way for the game to depict this. From a completely Nomad society to rulers of a vast area in middle India.

They do get access to a completely cool new bodyguard along with the reforms, though. :smash:

-Besides, if, as Saka you get the reforms, that means that you did go the historical way that the Saka went. So, the reforms did work after all.

[mrtwisties]

Perhaps 20 years of holding a greater number of settled territories, rather than 4 years of holding just one?

[chenkai11]

I got the same feeling when I played SAKA. I know the requirements for the reform, but I didn't really expect that easy during the campaign. I am expecting to use HA army for many years before having the infantry.

But that wasn't any complain about the reform if it is historical or not, it's only my reaction when I got it. :beam:

[General Appo]

Well, it seems rather strange that a Indo-Saka culture would form in Dayuan. If perhaps you´d have to hold say Kophen or at least Baktria itself for a decade or two. Cultures usually don´t merge in 4 years after all.

[keravnos]

I personally view it as a "change in command" situation. Those same IndoGreeks who would fight for competing dynasties, now fought for the IndoSaka. The merging of cultures would take place over hundreds of years. In the meanwhile, if the new overlords would demand of their IndoGreek subjects that they fight, this is what we perceive them to look like.

However, your concern is noted, and thanks for it. I will put this up for review.

[General Appo]

:birthday2:

Mesa roxors.

[struckat]

The Saka reforms say that you must hold a certain group of cities for four winters. The OP said that he achieved the reforms after only getting one or two of the ones listed in the requirments.

In the last version of EB I found that the reforms worked properly and it was not easy to take and hold these cities for four winters. You must take some of the required cities from baktria and AS which makes them very angry.

When the latest version of EB came out, Saka was the first faction I played.
I was surprised that I achieved the reform having only made it to Baktria.

The real question may be, is the Saka reform working correctly. I dont think it is.

Long live EB.

[Grriffon]

Personally I don't see how it matters WHEN they get the reform. When I get the reforms, the only thing I use it for for a looong time is to garrison with hoplites instead of archers, and it doesn't end up being too big a difference. They get their reforms faster than Rome maybe, but Rome also has nearby mines, a booming sea trade, and a positive income.

[Grim Fiddler]

Could someone please list or point to these reforms for me? Thanks.

[russia almighty]

Kern, I believe the best solution would be for you having to camp out in those provinces for more than 16 turns.

Maybe 128. 32 years is enough time for the old society to begin dying off, and other things necessary for a culture shift.

[A Very Super Market]

Damned Saka! D:<

I've never been so annoyed at a faction before. Apparently they outrange my Persians, with better accuracy to boot (on horses!) Then their FMs get armoured nobles instead of their old light cavalry, just for taking a second-bit town at the edge of Seleucid land! So I take it that the AI can get reforms as well...

[lenin96]

Could someone please list or point to these reforms for me? Thanks.

In the faq (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=84854).

[bobbin]

32 years is enough time for the old society to begin dying off, and other things necessary for a culture shift.

I think the point is that the old society is not dying off it's just gaining a new ruling class, from what I've read ther Saka allowed the greeks cities and towns much autonomy within their empire.

The time taken to gain the reforms could be veiwed as how long it took for the Saka to trust their greek subjects with military service.

Although it could be extended to maybe 8-10 years as 4 does seen a bit quick.

[Connacht]

I think that the reform doesn't work perfectly if it triggers so early and only after conquering just one city north to Baktria, while it should represent the mixing between Sakas and Indo-Greeks (not just Sogdians and stop).

[Uticensis]

I played a Saka campaign a while back and got the reforms really quick too. They do come quick and relatively easy, especially since, as the Saka, you really have to take some of those Eastern-Greek cities in the first few turns with your starting forces unless you want your economy to fall apart (or have to dispand your forces and let you wall-less towns be sitting ducks). Also, I think that my Saka campaign was perhaps my shortest campaign, maybe because reforms are things that I get excited for, but they came too early and I got bored.

Anyway, perhaps the reforms can be changed to make them more like the Parthian reforms: i.e. in Greek or Indian cities, you can build some things that take a while but open up a whole new track of reform MIC. That way if you conquer Sogdiana quickly, you will get hoplites and the like, but it doesn't effect your entire empire. So when you move into India, it will still take a while to get those new provinces producing infantry because the Indians now have to be incorporated into your culture. I hope that makes sense.

[V.T. Marvin]

I think that the point Rodrico Stak has raised is valid: the FAQ says that the requirements for the reforms are "You must hold Baktra, Marakanda, Alexandreia Eschate, Antiocheia Margiane, Alexandria Ariana or Taksashila for 4 consecutive winters." This would be perfectly all right, yet in his game he apperentely gained the reforms after fulfilling just one of all those requirements. Apparently, there is error in the script, something like "OR" instead of "AND" in the string of conditions.
Definitely worth some investigation, maybe the moderators could move this thread to the bug subforum, dunno...

[bovi]

No, the description is correct as far as the reform works:

"You must hold Baktra, Marakanda, Alexandreia Eschate, Antiocheia Margiane, Alexandria Ariana or Taksashila for 4 consecutive winters."

Not

"You must hold Baktra, Marakanda, Alexandreia Eschate and Antiocheia Margiane, as well as Alexandria Ariana or Taksashila, for 4 consecutive winters."

Not saying whether this is the best way for the reforms, just that it's working as it says on the tin.

[Subotan]

Well what's wrong with having them like that? I frequently fail to see the Saka ever getting anywhere near India, and yet be called Indo Saka. The problem is, those reforms look like they affect all of Saka society, despite Alexandria-Thingamajig being a crummy outpost. They should definetely have to hold one of the Indian cities for those four years, rather than Dayuan/Sogdiana to become Indo-Saka.