MTW's gameplay can be summed up in one line

[Koga No Goshi]

and that line is:







:egypt::smash::furious3::help:
THE ALMOHADS HAVE INVADED YOUR PROVINCE!

For those of you who are old school like me, you will know what I mean when I say that in the vanilla single player MTW, the Almohads bring back memories hardcore of the "Hojo Horde." Big time. I do not know that I have ever played a single game of MTW where the Almohads did not at some point take at least half of the map, and start aggressively attacking me. This usually results in throwing away their princes/kings in repeated attacks and ultimately turning into large swaths of rebel territories. (This usually means they re-emerge sooner or later.)

I just wanted to express this... I'm not asking for a fix or a mod or anything, just wondered if this summed up anyone else's experience of the faction AI's.

[caravel]

And just when you thought it was over... they reappear in Portugal. :help:

I see this is your first post since 2004 Koga No Goshi, welcome back indeed.

:bow:~:cheers:

[bondovic]

Yeah, once they whip the Spanish they're just silly. Those rich provinces, those bad boy militias, all that iron, early muslim boats and... camels! How can you miss? :2thumbsup:

[Ironsword]

My games can usually be summed up in two lines:

"...the pope asks you to cease hostilities within the next two years... etc."

and

"You have been excommunicated for your aggression towards... etc."

Oh, how could I forget this gem; "A large force of Mongol warriors.. etc." :smash:

[Martok]

Welcome back, Koga No Goshi. ~:cheers:



I just wanted to express this... I'm not asking for a fix or a mod or anything, just wondered if this summed up anyone else's experience of the faction AI's.
Yeah, the Almos are insane in MTW 1.1. I remember playing as the Spanish was always a major challenge, as I had to fend off repeated invasion waves sent by the Caliph. :sweatdrop: A pity they were nerfed in Viking Invasion.

[Koga No Goshi]

Thanks for the welcome back. Once upon a time I was an Off Topic moderator here, back in the golden days of Shogun: Total War. Was in one of the competitive clans (well, we weren't top 3 or anything, but we were a small group of decently skilled players) named Tenki.

I've been "re-immersing" in Total War lately. I always like to pop in Shogun once in awhile because I consider it the "Quintessential" Total War game and I love its simplicity and perfect unit balance. (Sometimes I get overwhelmed in all the later games at how MANY units you need to remember how to counter, and the many many layers of building trees needed to train or re-train specific unit types, it becomes a mess of micromanagement on occasion.) I like that MTW plays so much like the original Shogun but I do get a little overwhelmed with all the attempted assasinations and the AI's insane (ab)use of strategic units.

On a side note, I think it's a tremendous bummer that the older games aren't supported online, I especially miss Shogun. I remember Shogun wasn't hosted terribly long; I think sometime shortly before or after MTW came out they stopped hosting it online.

I like Rome Total War and MTW2 but I think they have a significantly different feel from the previous games. Some things feel the same like building trees and unit construction and most elements of the real time battle, but the strategic map differences are really hard to get used to for an oldbie like me. I like the idea of "controlling families" but I do wish you had more direct control over your families than simple yes/no's sometimes. MTW was neat letting you even marry direct relatives if you wanted to be absolutely sure heirs would be produced as early as possible (even though there's an ick factor of course) but I would love more features in future games, if they stick with a "control a family line" aspect, than simply "is this suitor acceptable? Y/N". I think the next logical evolution would be letting you develop factions within your faction... certain generals or family members more loyal to this one than that one, etc. More births overall would also be nice, it's terrible trying to spread five family members out amongst 30 provinces.

But yes... back on topic... those darn Almohads. I enjoy thrashing them but it just feels like I HAVE TO in every game, I wonder what it is about them that gives them such a huge edge under AI control. And the Mongols so weak! I swear, they never last more than 7 turns in my single player campaigns, even against other AI factions only.

[Monk]

And the Mongols so weak! I swear, they never last more than 7 turns in my single player campaigns, even against other AI factions only.

Turtle in Khazar with 10,000 troops then say that with a straight face... I dare you. :skull:

[Koga No Goshi]

Turtle in Khazar with 10,000 troops then say that with a straight face... I dare you. :skull:

I'm quite certain I've done that at least on one occasion. I'm just shocked that the incompetent AI is capable of holding them off without any player assistance and usually wipes them out within 10 years.

[Monk]

I'm quite certain I've done that at least on one occasion. I'm just shocked that the incompetent AI is capable of holding them off without any player assistance and usually wipes them out within 10 years.

The Horde isn't invincible, they got wiped out quite a bit but they also expanded to fill the steppes in my games. It really was a roll of the dice, I think if they could branch out beyond the river battle provinces (there's a lot around Khazar) they normally would just go crazy on the AI.

The furthest west I ever saw them reach was the borders of Germany, most times though they would get bogged down in wars in the middle-east/poland though. Of course, once I got to a certain point in MTW I considered the horde my enemy, and only mine. They were the enemy whatever empire I was building was geared toward fighting.


Hah, It's funny. Coming to this forum always makes me nostalgic, and i always say "I'm gonna reinstall later!" Well no more later. I've got the disk in my hand right now. :thumbsup:

[Koga No Goshi]

I'm a sea province lover myself, I can't get by without all that delicious maritime trade income. In fact, the big landlocked empires that keep big armies, like the Holy Roman Empire, I never understand how they don't go bankrupt all the time.

And cheers on reinstalling, I pretty much am just now all into Total War again. It's been years since the last time I touched anything other than Shogun.

[Martok]

Thanks for the welcome back. Once upon a time I was an Off Topic moderator here, back in the golden days of Shogun: Total War. Was in one of the competitive clans (well, we weren't top 3 or anything, but we were a small group of decently skilled players) named Tenki.
Very cool; it's always nice to see one of the "Old Guard" honor us with your presence. :bow:



I've been "re-immersing" in Total War lately. I always like to pop in Shogun once in awhile because I consider it the "Quintessential" Total War game and I love its simplicity and perfect unit balance. (Sometimes I get overwhelmed in all the later games at how MANY units you need to remember how to counter, and the many many layers of building trees needed to train or re-train specific unit types, it becomes a mess of micromanagement on occasion.) I like that MTW plays so much like the original Shogun but I do get a little overwhelmed with all the attempted assasinations and the AI's insane (ab)use of strategic units.
Yeah, I find both STW and MTW to be compelling in their own ways. Like you, I love Shogun's clean simplicity of gameplay, and how it was relatively easy to determine the counter to each unit.

Conversely with MTW, I actually enjoy its increased complexity -- not just in terms of the interactions with the other factions, but also with your own characters. It's always been fun to watch a general "evolve" over time, and what kind of effects he can have on your kingdom. (Civil wars, anyone? ~D ) I do agree, though, that the AI's use of agents makes me scratch my head at times, particularly in regards to assassins and inquisitors.



On a side note, I think it's a tremendous bummer that the older games aren't supported online, I especially miss Shogun. I remember Shogun wasn't hosted terribly long; I think sometime shortly before or after MTW came out they stopped hosting it online.
I want to say that had to do with CA switching publishers from EA to Activision, but I don't remember now. I concur, though, that it was a shame they shut down Shogun's MP servers as early as they did. :thumbsdown:



I like Rome Total War and MTW2 but I think they have a significantly different feel from the previous games. Some things feel the same like building trees and unit construction and most elements of the real time battle, but the strategic map differences are really hard to get used to for an oldbie like me. I like the idea of "controlling families" but I do wish you had more direct control over your families than simple yes/no's sometimes. MTW was neat letting you even marry direct relatives if you wanted to be absolutely sure heirs would be produced as early as possible (even though there's an ick factor of course) but I would love more features in future games, if they stick with a "control a family line" aspect, than simply "is this suitor acceptable? Y/N". I think the next logical evolution would be letting you develop factions within your faction... certain generals or family members more loyal to this one than that one, etc. More births overall would also be nice, it's terrible trying to spread five family members out amongst 30 provinces.
Yeah, I think the Total War series has yet to truly get the royal/dynastic family mechanism correct. I'm curious as to how it will work in Empire, as it looks like there's been some changes made from RTW/M2TW.



But yes... back on topic... those darn Almohads. I enjoy thrashing them but it just feels like I HAVE TO in every game, I wonder what it is about them that gives them such a huge edge under AI control.
I think the Almos' advantage can be primarily attributed to the following:

1.) Territory -- With the exception of Cyrenacia, the rest of their initial five provinces have a decent starting income....which can be even further improved, as most also have either mine-able resources (gold, silver, etc.) and/or profitable trade goods. Thus, they can afford to build a large army more quickly than most factions.

2.) Location -- Their starting position allows them to immediately concentrate their forces on just two fronts (Cyrenacia and Cordoba). So long as they don't have to worry about seaborne invasion, there's nothing to stop them from either attacking Egypt and/or moving further north into Iberia.

3.) Almohad Urban Militia -- What more is there to say about these guys? They're better than any other infantry unit in the beginning of the game, they're cheap, they have low build requirements, and they receive a +1 valour bonus if recruited in Grenada. Thus, the Almohads can quickly spam hordes of AUM and easily destroy almost any army that dares oppose them (at least for the first 50 years or so).

4.) Finally, I believe the Almos' AI "attitude" (or whatever it's called) in vanilla MTW is set to "aggressive", which allows them to take even greater advantage of their attributes.


In fact, it was due to some people complaining that they were too overpowered -- with, it must be admitted, a certain amount of justification -- that CA toned down the Caliphate in Viking Invasion by setting their AI attitude to "defensive". The problem was that this ended up being an over-correction, as now the Almos would only rarely attack other provinces. Indeed, they actually became the whipping boy for the Spanish, the latter of whom would (more often than not) expand to become one of the game's superpowers.

Fortunately, most mods seem to fix this so that the Almohads are more balanced. I know that in XL and the Pocket Mod, they're once again competitive with the Spanish, but not to the point of being overwhelming like they were in vanilla MTW.



And the Mongols so weak! I swear, they never last more than 7 turns in my single player campaigns, even against other AI factions only.
They're definitely underpowered in MTW 1.1, as I don't think I ever saw them appear with more than 5000 troops. They're much stronger in VI, as I now never see them with less than 18,000 troops. Often times it's double that, especially if whoever owns Khazar has stationed a large garrison there.

That said, however, they still don't always last very long. The Khan seems to have a death wish, and often manages to get himself killed before any of his heirs come of age.

[Koga No Goshi]

Thank you very much. I am truly honored that so many people seem to be going out of their way to say welcome back and remember who I am.

It sounds like a lot of the issues I am experiencing are simply symptomatic of vanilla MTW. I will admit that unless I am playing a game online and require to have the latest patch, I will typically play without patches or mods unless I get truly bored or there is something gamebreaking going on. It sounds like my game diversity would improve at least a little by patching, so I will make it a point to do that and try it out.

Thanks for all the detailed information about the behavior of the Almohads and Mongols, by the way.

[drone]

My games can usually be summed up in two lines:

"...the pope asks you to cease hostilities within the next two years... etc."

and

"You have been excommunicated for your aggression towards... etc."

:yes:

Welcome back Koga No Goshi. :bow: You stopped posting before I joined the .Org, but it's always good to see the old guard return.

[Koga No Goshi]

:yes:

Welcome back Koga No Goshi. :bow: You stopped posting before I joined the .Org, but it's always good to see the old guard return.

Why thank you. ;)

[Martok]

Thank you very much. I am truly honored that so many people seem to be going out of their way to say welcome back and remember who I am.
Hey, you were a member of the original "Shogun class" back when I first started hanging around this joint. I was so intimidated/overawed by you guys that I lurked for almost two years before finally working up the courage to register and start posting. :laugh4:

In general, I think you'll find that veterans are very welcome here. :bow:



It sounds like a lot of the issues I am experiencing are simply symptomatic of vanilla MTW. I will admit that unless I am playing a game online and require to have the latest patch, I will typically play without patches or mods unless I get truly bored or there is something gamebreaking going on. It sounds like my game diversity would improve at least a little by patching, so I will make it a point to do that and try it out.
I would certainly recommend it, yes. The patches can definitely make a difference, and mods even more so.

Which version of MTW do you play, by the way? Do you have Viking Invasion, or just the original game?



Thanks for all the detailed information about the behavior of the Almohads and Mongols, by the way.
No problem. I'm always happy to be of help (not to mention have a chance to ramble on for a while). ~D

[Roark]

My favourite line of all time is:

"The enemy general lies dead! A blackguard gone to his deserved grave..."

This is the moment in the battle when you know all the hard work has paid off. :-)

[Koga No Goshi]

On a totally unrelated side note, I think one of the coolest voiceover clips for attacking in a strategy war game are the French cavalry units in AOE III. I didn't like the game overall, but there's a line they use... and I don't know a lick of French, so I'm sure I'll mangle it, but it's something like alles attack! It sounds really cool the way the voice actor says it.

I do miss the old guard--- I can't remember everyone as it's been so long, but Kurando, ShaiHulud, TosaInu and a few others come to mind. If there's a place where the old regs tend to congregate, do let me know. ;)

Oh yes and I forgot to answer. I have vanilla MTW and vanilla RTW. I fell out of the cutting edge; the only reason I had Mongol Invasion the day it came out was because I was regularly playing online at the time. I tend to buy the Total War games as soon as they hit the shelves and then go off and happily amuse myself with them for awhile and totally forget to come back and check forums and sites to see if expansions are out soon. Since I am back into Total War at the moment, if anyone could let me know if the MTW or RTW expansions are worthwhile that would be appreciated.

[Togakure]

... Was in one of the competitive clans (well, we weren't top 3 or anything, but we were a small group of decently skilled players) named Tenki. ...
Were you friends with TenkiSoratoti/Panda? I still chat with him online from time to time. He's not involved in things TW these days, but was always fiercely loyal to Tenki, often referring to himself as the last active Tenki as Shogun MP faded into the twilight.

Just curious if you two knew each other. My guess is he'd enjoy hearing that one of his brethren has returned to the TW fold.

Welcome back.

[bondovic]

Since I am back into Total War at the moment, if anyone could let me know if the MTW or RTW expansions are worthwhile that would be appreciated.

If you mean the official expansion to MTW - MTW: VI, then absolutely. As I say this, I realize that I don't even remember how vanilla was back in the days... Bottom line; you get new viking units. That alone should do it.

After aquiring the MTW: VI expansion, you should look into the various mods. My favourite being MTW: XL with Tyberius' add on - that really does wonders for the unit graphics on the battle map. However, there are issues with this mod that not everyone likes, especially those who don't do any text modding for themselves:

1. Land bridges are removed, with the exception of the bridge between Denmark and Scania (added province for the mod at the southern tip of the swedish peninsula).

2. Unit balance is way different, not only in regards to fighting stats but price, support costs and tech reqs' as well.

3. There are a lot of new units added. Some of these are seriously overpowered and can disrupt the balance drastically. E.g. the 'Basque Warriors' of Navarre. Left unchecked, these dudes wins wars for you. Period. If you're delicate about balance and temperance, I recommend that you get your hands on a 'Gnome Editor' so that you'll be able to work it out for yourself.

4. Troop morale. For me, this is a serious downer. It just feels weird and unromantic to read the unit descriptions and see the Militia Sergeants: "Strong Charge, Armoured, Excellent morale". I don't like the switch from morale based battles to fighting skill based battles, though. I can understand if you do! But I don't.

5. Building time is reduced. Also, the factions start with more infrastructure. This means higher tech armies from the get go. Not as much peasant mauling, more pinning and flanking. Is this your cup of tea?

6. Trade is nerfed. Well, not to the point of redundancy, but enough to not give you a nitro boost into world domination from just a couple of provinces. Farm income is increased instead, meaning better balance between your economy and the AIs', since the AI just doesn't maintain trade routes effectively. For some, though, the 'trading empire' was a fun way to turtle but still remain competitive.

Can't really think of anything else at the moment, although I'm sure there are lots of things I've left out. Like, yeah, new factions. Meaning fewer rebel provinces. Meaning a more competitive early expansion phase. Now I'm done. :yes:

[cambovenzi]

idk.
i find that sometimes the almos overpower the spanish, but its been pretty even or spanish won in my last few games.
im pretty deep into a danish campaign right now. spain is still sticking around. almo's have most of spain(except for one on the bottom somehow owned by the spanish[yes, they flip flopped positions somehow. the spanish own below that too], and portugal owned by me(boat trip:))

but anyways, i have yet to fight them, and they arent dominant by any means.
its me, biz, and then maybe almos. and i did nothing to prohibit them.

[Lokiss]

My games can usually be summed up in two lines:

"...the pope asks you to cease hostilities within the next two years... etc."

and

"You have been excommunicated for your aggression towards... etc."


^ For real, LOL.

[cambovenzi]

yeah, excomm is a pain.
GOTTA WASTE DEM ARABS INSTEAD:egypt:

[naut]

"The enemy has retreated to the castle..."

Grrr! Six archers and a lonesome spearman man the citadel and they can hold out for upwards of 10 years. :no:

[seireikhaan]

"The enemy has retreated to the castle..."

Grrr! Six archers and a lonesome spearman man the citadel and they can hold out for upwards of 10 years. :no:
That's when you bring the rear guard to finish them off...

A horde of emissaries.

:hide:

Just to kinda add my :2cents:, I would heartily recommend Viking Invasion. Just being able to set your reinforcements orders is helpful enough, but the added units, and the mods you can then use on top of it... Really adds a lot of variety in the long run.

[drone]

Just to kinda add my :2cents:, I would heartily recommend Viking Invasion. Just being able to set your reinforcements orders is helpful enough, but the added units, and the mods you can then use on top of it... Really adds a lot of variety in the long run.

Yes, the pre-battle reinforcement screen is great (it comes with a pre-battle save). The extra units add a little more flavor to the main campaign, and the separate Viking campaign is a lot of fun, it's shorter and gives you some variety.

I would also recommend that you check out the Samurai Warlords mod forum here. Some of the older crew have ported STW to MTW to take advantage of the newer features in the engine.

[oz_wwjd]

Actually in my last 5 games as the Byzantines the spanish have steamrolled the Almo and have then taken a liking to egypt,which i usually control by that time,Using xl+Tyberius 2.3 mod at the present.Regretably I was forced to use debug mode to disband half the units there were using to take egypt,as it was causing my game to freeze up. The reduced trade income isn't so bad,right now Const makes 1995 florins in trade income,and 2300 in farm income..

[Gyrfalcon]

For me the iconic line is 'The Turkish Sultan has been captured and executed. He has no heirs and his forces have degenerated into minor factions'. The Eggies nearly always steam through them, and if not, Byzantium is perfectly happy to do the honours.

[Koga No Goshi]

Were you friends with TenkiSoratoti/Panda? I still chat with him online from time to time. He's not involved in things TW these days, but was always fiercely loyal to Tenki, often referring to himself as the last active Tenki as Shogun MP faded into the twilight.

Just curious if you two knew each other. My guess is he'd enjoy hearing that one of his brethren has returned to the TW fold.

Welcome back.

I absolutely remember the name. It's been years though, and the problem is, I think we all spoke both in game, with our player names, and in MSN, under another name/e-mail name, and in Roger Wilco, under whatever name we felt like, and then we had our own clan forum with usernames, and then on top of that we used real life first names a lot in voice chat! So, I'd have a heck of a time remembering exactly who was who. I do definitely recall his name though- Tenki was never "massive", I knew all the Tenkis or trained them or played with them all more than once.

[cambovenzi]

For me the iconic line is 'The Turkish Sultan has been captured and executed. He has no heirs and his forces have degenerated into minor factions'. The Eggies nearly always steam through them, and if not, Byzantium is perfectly happy to do the honours.

you mean:

"DISASTER"
your king has died and you have no heirs.
your faction has degenerated into small countries and you are pathetic for losing the game.
you also smell bad.

or something to that effect. lol

[Lokiss]

I've actually never had a problem with the Almohads in general, only this one Spanish campaign when I was still getting my economy sorted and they hit pretty hard and fast.

[Gyrfalcon]

Sorry, perhaps I should have clarified earlier. I can handle the Turkish faction reasonably well. However, starting in early, the AI Turkish faction always seems to be a speed-bump for Egypt.

[Axalon]

Hi guys,

Well um, for me I'd guess it would be something like this:

The AI is a coward.... :mickey:


- Cheers

[Lokiss]

Hi guys,

Well um, for me I'd guess it would be something like this:

The AI is a coward.... :mickey:


- Cheers

Up your difficulty. :laugh4:

[cambovenzi]

Up your difficulty. :laugh4:

yeah i love nicely timed 4 way attacks on me on the same turn or two.

but by then its usually too late for them to stand a chance.

[Axalon]

Hello again,

Well um, I would if I could…. Or is there a secret "expert-expert" level that I don’t know about? :mickey:


- Cheers

[Knight of the Rose]

If you want to play "expert-expert" you can:

Train only peasants!

/KotR

[drone]

If you want to play "expert-expert" you can:

Train only peasants!

/KotR

Or camels! :2thumbsup:

[caravel]

I never play expert because the AI get's a morale bonus. This means that routs are much more difficult to trigger and your men tend to get many more kills. In general I dislike difficulty mods that rely on giving the AI bonuses or penalties to make up for limited AI. Hard is the best difficulty IMHO, with some self imposed rules.

[Axalon]

If you want to play "expert-expert" you can:

Train only peasants!

/KotR

Well… Yeah I probably could, but the prospect of “Peasants - Total War” strike me as fairly unsexy (even camels are sexier than that). At any rate, I’m not that into peasants in MTW anyways so I’ll pass I guess. Besides, I already got more than my fair share of those anyhow. No, I think I’ll rather stick to:

The AI is a coward…. :mickey:


- Cheers

[Theoderic]

i find that the almohads are nigh invincible in the early and high periods, which always leads to a long and costly war with me. but in the late period 9 times out of 10 the spanish utterly crush them and take their place, usually taking the north africa and the whole middle east

[gaijinalways]

Strangely enough, in my current GA HRE campaign around 1158, the Alomonds have disappeared, and the Spanish have already take away all the crusade points as they killed off the Egyptians. The Spanish are huge (not sure if they are as big as me, I just took over provinces 34 and 35) and the Byz are the next ones with any size.

I too like taking those seaside income producers, though in this campaign I took a number of provinces to just hold my economy together most of Western Europe except the west coast, kicked England into Northumbreia, and have only gone as far west as Bavaria and Austria. Also recently kicked the Pope out of the game after he declared war on me (didn't excom me though). So adding The Papal lands to Sicily was a treat.

Welcome back Koga No Goshi, the TW series is quite a bit of fun, isn't it? I have only STW and MTW, but I enjoy playing both. No other game like it, with both economy managing and those real time battles!

[Tony Furze]

Just played a couple of Custom Battles and Quick Battles after wrenching away at RTW and M2TW:

this game has the smoothness and elegance of a carefully stored bottle of priceless wine.

[nzd07]

Ooh, this brings back such a great memory: It was one of my first MTW campaigns, I was the byz. I had endless byzantine infantry stacked up in nearly every province, with like a minus -1000000 florin income. It had taken me about 100 reloads and a couple of weeks to finally conquer all of Turkey, north-eastern Europe, and I was closing in on France in England. The pope was already taken out by the Italians, who I thought were my only threat. I took them out and proceeded towards Spain where i met about 8 full armies of urban militias, berber and bedouin camels, and desert archers.

I was greatly outnumbered, so I sent all my troops from the eastern provinces: who by the way hold a VERY long grudge :laugh4: the troops were pushing back and finally the rebellions sprang up. I had no money and suffered a civil war. As soon as this happened, I kicked my Computer tower over and it shut off. Hahaha I will never forget that !

[gaijinalways]

One line

"You never know what's going to happen...until it happens."