Another School shooting in Finland

[Kagemusha]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7630969.stm

A 22 year old chef student killed yesterday 9 students and an teacher in town of Kauhajoki, Finland.It seems these horrible things have came here to stay after last years school shooting in Jokela.:shame:

[Fragony]

A major tragedy. It was a bit unnerving that no finnish poster put it up yesterday. Such a waste of life :no:

[HoreTore]

He looks a bit like you, Kage. Something you want to tell us, perhaps?



yes, I shamelessly stole that from mouza...

[Kagemusha]

He looks a bit like you, Kage. Something you want to tell us, perhaps?



yes, I shamelessly stole that from mouza...

Well im still alive.He is not.:strawman3:Well all joking aside.I think these things are very alarming and here the discussion is going heavily in direction of banning small arms, while i dont think it is because of gunlaws that these people are dead.I think the problem is in our society.

[HoreTore]

How 'bout the combination of vodka and saunas? :inquisitive:

[Fragony]

I think the problem is in our society.

How so? I don't think you can prevent things like this.

[Martok]

Yeah, I was shocked to read that in the news yesterday -- my condolences to the victims and their families. :shame: I always have a hard time picturing tragic events like that occurring in Scandinavia for some reason, even though I know it's not an isolated incident.



I think the problem is in our society.
I second Fragony's question: Why do you think that? There's always going to be disturbed individuals with violent intentions, no matter what you do.

[Innocentius]

I always have a hard time picturing tragic events like that occurring in Scandinavia for some reason, even though I know it's not an isolated incident.

Well, it didn't take place in Scandinavia...

I don't know what to feel about it. I've grown apathetic to this kind of news and I was neither surprised nor shocked when I read the headlines. I have no relatives in that part of Finland from what I know, so...

[Louis VI the Fat]

I un-second Fragony's question!

Social choices of every society go a long way to explaining why tragedies like this happen. Not guns or an abundance of disturbed individuals are the reason for the difference in levels of violence between South Africa and Iceland, but society at large. Compare, for example, a good road network. A few tragic random occurences, or individual maniacs, are always the direct cause for car accidents. But a good road network, build for safety, goes a long way to preventing car accidents. Better roads mean less accidents. More and better law enforement mean more law-abiding drivers. This means less road rage, which leads to a more respectful driving culture. Etcetera. Society always has a choice.

[Kadagar_AV]

Finland is not part of Scandinavia...

Finland needs to have another look at their gun laws...

Oh well, for every school shoot out, I noticed that the bullies play a bit more nice for a while... Not everything is bad.

[Sigurd]

I heard on the radio that the Police had him in for questioning the day before the shooting because of some disturbing youtube videos where he shoots with his Walter P-22 gun and displaying the slogan : "You will die next"...
Not much unlike Pekka last year.

I guess there will not be a third time. :stare:

[Viking]

Finland is not part of Scandinavia...

Finland needs to have another look at their gun laws...

Oh well, for every school shoot out, I noticed that the bullies play a bit more nice for a while... Not everything is bad.

It's bound to happen in Scandinavia sooner or later anyway. :juggle2:

[Fragony]

If you are going to treat it as a social problem you are only inviting more nutjobs to make a statement. It isn't, just a crybaby and a copycat. Feel sorry for the finnish must be very traumatising to have this happening twice in such a small time.

[Strike For The South]

Finland is not part of Scandinavia...

Finland needs to have another look at their gun laws...

Oh well, for every school shoot out, I noticed that the bullies play a bit more nice for a while... Not everything is bad.

This has to do with the society at large nothing to do with guns. I can't speak for Finland but here in America I have come to the conclusion that our society makes this happen mainly by the way we retard emotional expression esp. at a young age. I dont understand how people think legal firearms make people go crazy. It doesn't make sense

[Kralizec]

My condolences to the families of the victims.

What kind of a sad narcisist do you have to be to show off your gun skilz on youtube before killing several people randomly and cut your miserable life short before people will hold you accountable?

I don't think that there's something specific about Finland that encourages these kinds of things (except lots of guns) and that it's probably copycat behaviour from TV and internet, but that's just my guess.

[Kadagar_AV]

Well, if a guy is making threatening videos on the net, then I find it a bitt odd that the law allows him to keep his weapon...

He was in for questionng by the police ebcause of the videos, but they had no right to take his weapon.

See what happened?

So in this particular case, it is (among other things) a question about the law itself.

[Innocentius]

This has to do with the society at large nothing to do with guns. I can't speak for Finland but here in America I have come to the conclusion that our society makes this happen mainly by the way we retard emotional expression esp. at a young age. I dont understand how people think legal firearms make people go crazy. It doesn't make sense

While I do agree about that society bit... well, to use the words of Bill Hicks: "There is no connection between having a gun and shooting somebody with it... And you'd be a fool and a communist to make one."

[Kadagar_AV]

While I do agree about that society bit... well, to use the words of Bill Hicks: "There is no connection between having a gun and shooting somebody with it... And you'd be a fool and a communist to make one."

I can see one connection... if you dont have a gun, you cant shoot anyone...

[TevashSzat]

This has to do with the society at large nothing to do with guns. I can't speak for Finland but here in America I have come to the conclusion that our society makes this happen mainly by the way we retard emotional expression esp. at a young age. I dont understand how people think legal firearms make people go crazy. It doesn't make sense

Well, I would be perfectly fine with guns easily accessible to all should there be some very strict background/mental state checks of some sort.

But.....the government, as inefficient and mostly incompetent it is, will never be able to enforce it and it is too easy to buy guns illegally so many would say just outlaw guns outright.


"There is no connection between having a gun and shooting somebody with it... And you'd be a fool and a communist to make one."

Well, in China (communist gov), the homicide rate with guns is EXTREMELY low because almost no one has guns. Only higher level police and the army has guns. Other than organized crime, most criminals only use knifes and crowbars and stuff like that which can only do so much damage.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Louis makes a good point about society.

Decades ago we never had this in America. And we had kids legally bring guns to school for target practice and hunting after school

But it's not some BS sort of 'its society's fault because they failed these kids' - society didn't hold these kids accountable enough and didn't scorn and deride the pathetic idea of killing others before killing yourself.

The media hurts too; they give every single killer the fame that helps to attract more.

The names of these killers should never be spoken, no images should ever be shown or analysis into their lives proclaimed, no writings of theirs should be released to the public, no grave should be allowed them. Their lives should be blanked out so that they have less lasting impact on the world than a minimum wage janitor.

CR

[Koga No Goshi]

Louis makes a good point about society.

Decades ago we never had this in America. And we had kids legally bring guns to school for target practice and hunting after school

But it's not some BS sort of 'its society's fault because they failed these kids' - society didn't hold these kids accountable enough and didn't scorn and deride the pathetic idea of killing others before killing yourself.

The media hurts too; they give every single killer the fame that helps to attract more.

The names of these killers should never be spoken, no images should ever be shown or analysis into their lives proclaimed, no writings of theirs should be released to the public, no grave should be allowed them. Their lives should be blanked out so that they have less lasting impact on the world than a minimum wage janitor.

CR

I agree with you but I think what's missing from this argument is that kids don't do it just for fame. I think that kids who have already given up and feel like they will never not feel so angry and helpless and belittled and hopeless then figure well, if I'm going to die anyway, maybe some infamy isn't so bad. Especially if violence can be directed at the people who (rightly or wrongly) they consider responsible for whatever they are feeling. So, as long as society tolerates things like bullying, pecking orders, the alienation and systematic mistreatment of "black sheep" kids in the classroom (nerds misfits whatever) and neighbors, friends, family members and community figures (teachers coworkers etc.) ignore child abuse and child neglect on the part of parents (and it's VERY rare for seriosuly NO ONE to ever know that a child is being abused-- much more likely several people knew but didn't want to get involved) then chiding the shooters after the fact will never solve or stop anything.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
It's a shame indeed. The first bit of news on the e-papers in the morning (14 PM ~;p).

My condolences to Suomi. :bow:
.

[Hosakawa Tito]

The saddest part is that the police had brought him in for questioning and then determined they had no reason to hold him or confiscate his weapons and let him go.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
:no:
.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Well, sounds like some Finnish politicians want to ban handguns, which is missing the point.

If the next nutjob uses a shotgun, what will they do then? And if the next guy uses a rifle, will they ban those as well? And when another makes a homemade bomb, will they ban cars so noone has reason to get gasoline?

Koga is right in that more needs to be done to crack down on bullying and child abuse.

CR

[Fragony]

Koga is right in that more needs to be done to crack down on bullying and child abuse.

Only to have the same thing happening in the less protective realm that is profesional life, you will always have bullies and victims c'est la vie. Take it for what it is, it's just a copycat. Dead one now. bye.

[Martok]

Vis-a-vis geography: Actually, it was taught in my school distrcit that Finland *is* part of Scandinavia -- despite the majority of Finns being more closely related to Hungarians & Kazakhs than Danes, Norwegians, & Swedes. I'm not sure why that is, though. :shrug:



The saddest part is that the police had brought him in for questioning and then determined they had no reason to hold him or confiscate his weapons and let him go.
Yeah, I wondered about that. I figured that at the very least, they would've confiscated his firearms. :dizzy2:

[Innocentius]

Vis-a-vis geography: Actually, it was taught in my school distrcit that Finland *is* part of Scandinavia -- despite the majority of Finns being more closely related to Hungarians & Kazakhs than Danes, Norwegians, & Swedes. I'm not sure why that is, though. :shrug:


Well, Finns are finno-ugrians (just like Hungarians, Karelians, Estonians etc.) while Swedes, Danes and Norwegians are germanics (just like Germans). Scandinavia is a geographic entity consisting of the peninsula formed by Sweden and Norway, and really has nothing to do with ethnicity.


The saddest part is that the police had brought him in for questioning and then determined they had no reason to hold him or confiscate his weapons and let him go.

They had no legal support to do so, and if you're answer to that is "But still", that leads us into the debate on what rules should be broken and what rules shouldn't be broken.

[Sigurd]

Vis-a-vis geography: Actually, it was taught in my school distrcit that Finland *is* part of Scandinavia -- despite the majority of Finns being more closely related to Hungarians & Kazakhs than Danes, Norwegians, & Swedes. I'm not sure why that is, though. :shrug:

Are you sure they didn't call it a Nordic country? Finland is a Nordic country (1 of 5) but not part of Scandinavia (3 nations).





Yeah, I wondered about that. I figured that at the very least, they would've confiscated his firearms. :dizzy2:

On the way back from work I heard they had apprehended a Swedish 16 year old for the possesion of illegal weapons and broadcasting hate videos on youtube (In Sweden). They are not taking any chances with copycats.

I also heard that the police officer that had questioned this madman the day before he killed 10 people and let him go and let him keep his weapons are under psycriatic help. Too much for the poor guy.

[Koga No Goshi]

Well, sounds like some Finnish politicians want to ban handguns, which is missing the point.

If the next nutjob uses a shotgun, what will they do then? And if the next guy uses a rifle, will they ban those as well? And when another makes a homemade bomb, will they ban cars so noone has reason to get gasoline?

Koga is right in that more needs to be done to crack down on bullying and child abuse.

CR

Yup I mean guns laying all around where kids have easy access is not exactly something that is helpful, but if a country really did get rid of all of its guns then a school shooter would use explosives made at home or bladed weapons or something. The underlying problem is social, and even here in America we have done almost nothing about it except a series of laws that further ostracized troubled kids and suspend them if they show any sign of hostility.

[Martok]

Well, Finns are finno-ugrians (just like Hungarians, Karelians, Estonians etc.) while Swedes, Danes and Norwegians are germanics (just like Germans). Scandinavia is a geographic entity consisting of the peninsula formed by Sweden and Norway, and really has nothing to do with ethnicity.
Exactly. Which again, is why don't really understand why Finland has always been lumped in with the rest of the Scandinavian nations. For convenience's sake, probably, but that's only a guess on my part.




Are you sure they didn't call it a Nordic country? Finland is a Nordic country (1 of 5) but not part of Scandinavia (3 nations).

Yep, I'm sure. My geography textbooks actually labeled Finland as a Scandinavian country, even though it's not part of the peninsula proper. :shrug:




I also heard that the police officer that had questioned this madman the day before he killed 10 people and let him go and let him keep his weapons are under psycriatic help. Too much for the poor guy.
Gah. Yeah, I can't imagine how he feels right now. Talk about guilt.... :shame:

[Husar]

Only to have the same thing happening in the less protective realm that is profesional life, you will always have bullies and victims c'est la vie. Take it for what it is, it's just a copycat. Dead one now. bye.

And you will always have people who are against bullies and don't accept your conservative stance on this, c'est la vie. Deal with it.

[Adrian II]

The names of these killers should never be spoken, no images should ever be shown or analysis into their lives proclaimed, no writings of theirs should be released to the public, no grave should be allowed them. Their lives should be blanked out so that they have less lasting impact on the world than a minimum wage janitor.Which is totally at odds with your views about individual freedom. Time for a rethink.

I agree with the view that if youngsters perpetrate such horrible crimes it is usually because society has either failed them, failed to stop them, of failed those who would have been able to stop them. But there is no way to build watertight guarantees into society without destryig its very fundament of liberty and individual responsibility.

Crime is here to stay. It will always be a problem. All we can do is try to contain it in such a way that neither crime nor law enforcement stifle the healthy functioning of society.

[Koga No Goshi]

You have to remember that we, as Americans, live in a society where half the people who have some position of power or authority don't even really believe in mental illness. A few years ago I saw a Congressperson refer to panic disorder as being "a nervous son of a (female dog)." With those kinds of attitudes around it honestly is not difficult for social networks and society to fail to intervene in the case of troubled kids.

[Fragony]

Great. This piece of ^%*%^* called a friend before ending his miserable life, 'I have just killed 10 people, going to kill myselve now'. According to eye-witnesses he started shooting blindly, and finnished of the wounded with a shot in the head. He said he 'enjoyed seeing people bleed'. How narcistic can you be, disgusting. So angry.

[Husar]

Sounds like me. :shrug:
I mean when I was still young and stupid and someone annoyed me greatly I wanted to see them bleed or I wasn't satisfied, maybe someone annoyed him greatly and he never grew up like I did?
(I'm nice like a little kitten now, no really. :sweatdrop: )

[Koga No Goshi]

Great. This piece of ^%*%^* called a friend before ending his miserable life, 'I have just killed 10 people, going to kill myselve now'. According to eye-witnesses he started shooting blindly, and finnished of the wounded with a shot in the head. He said he 'enjoyed seeing people bleed'. How narcistic can you be, disgusting. So angry.

*Shrug* You can despise them for being so mentally imbalanced, but I think that no one gets that far without a lot of people turning a blind eye, not caring, and not stepping in. I felt the same anger you seem to feel about school shootings until I read the Time (or was it People? I think it was Time) front feature about the Columbine shooters. Both kids, but the "leader" kid, Eric, in particular, had a very long history of troubled behavior that his very authoritarian military father pretty much ignored, covered up for, and refused to consider therapy for.

[Guildenstern]

I think that no one gets that far without a lot of people turning a blind eye, not caring, and not stepping in.
I think that the warning signs may be very vague and it's hard to find a potential time bomb such as this one.

[Koga No Goshi]

I think that the warning signs may be very vague and it's hard to find a potential time bomb such as this one.

I don't think that's true in the big majority of cases. Look at the Virginia tech kid. On meds, even his roommate said he NEVER TALKED, was on antidepressants and antipsychotics yet walked straight into a gun store and, perfectly legally, walked out with firearms with no sort of check. No one can say the system didn't drop the ball in cases like that.

[Guildenstern]

If you're saying you need new restrictions on guns, then I agree with you.

[KrooK]

We have ideal results of "non stress education". Children is educated without any stress so it can't ... overcome stress into its adult life. Then instead of react normally it explodes.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I can see one connection... if you dont have a gun, you cant shoot anyone...




Doesn't matter.... He can still kill with a Knife. Yeah, you can disarm him, but he can still kill. :yes:

http://gaming.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=13807

He killed people WITH A KNIFE.... I didn't see normal people disarm him (unless I am wrong)....




(article is about if games cause it, but still explains what happened).

[Husar]

We have ideal results of "non stress education". Children is educated without any stress so it can't ... overcome stress into its adult life. Then instead of react normally it explodes.

So the answer is to make life more stressful for everybody and learn children to get used to stress.
Sounds good, more heart attacks at 14! :freak:

[KrooK]

No - stress on low level teach people how to overcome it, how to work under pression and how to cope with problems. I think I should explain.

I had a teacher at university. Almost all the teachers did not expect anything before the exam.
You could be unprepared, you could know nothing and everything was all right if you pass exam.
He was completely different. All the lessons started from small exams - everyone was asked about something from previous lessons. If you did not know, you had to correct exam into harder conditions.
People were afraid of him, we had 2 really hard months but then... we started preparing ourselves on every lesson, we started learning. And then .... everything became easier. Before the exam we knew much more than rest of students of our year and what is more important, we knew how to connect parts of our knowledge.
At the exam worst mark into my groups was "4 + ", when best possible is 5 +. With smiles on our faces we saw others thrilling before exam. We simply could not understand why they don't know so easy things. Exam on that year was easier into my life. Just like signature after long essay.

This is good stress.

[Kadagar_AV]

Doesn't matter.... He can still kill with a Knife. Yeah, you can disarm him, but he can still kill. :yes:

http://gaming.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=13807

He killed people WITH A KNIFE.... I didn't see normal people disarm him (unless I am wrong)....




(article is about if games cause it, but still explains what happened).

You argue that it is as easy to kill people with a knife as with a gun? Or what?

[Husar]

Thanks for the explanation Krook, I wouldn't call it stress anymore once you cope with it but you're right, that kind of thing sounds sensible, would probably work for me as well. :sweatdrop:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

You argue that it is as easy to kill people with a knife as with a gun? Or what?




I argue it is easy to kill anyone with both a knife AND a gun, just a bit more easy with a gun then a knife, that's is what. And besides, if someone sneaks up on you with a knife and he is good... well who wins? :juggle2:

[Viking]

I argue it is easy to kill anyone with both a knife AND a gun, just a bit more easy with a gun then a knife, that's is what. And besides, if someone sneaks up on you with a knife and he is good... well who wins? :juggle2:

Compare the two scenarios:

1. a student with a gun enters a room and starts firing

2. a student with a knife enters a room and stabs a fellow student, and then tries to make his way to his next victim.

now give it a thought. A bit more easy you say? :laugh4:

[Koga No Goshi]

No - stress on low level teach people how to overcome it, how to work under pression and how to cope with problems. I think I should explain.

I had a teacher at university. Almost all the teachers did not expect anything before the exam.
You could be unprepared, you could know nothing and everything was all right if you pass exam.
He was completely different. All the lessons started from small exams - everyone was asked about something from previous lessons. If you did not know, you had to correct exam into harder conditions.
People were afraid of him, we had 2 really hard months but then... we started preparing ourselves on every lesson, we started learning. And then .... everything became easier. Before the exam we knew much more than rest of students of our year and what is more important, we knew how to connect parts of our knowledge.
At the exam worst mark into my groups was "4 + ", when best possible is 5 +. With smiles on our faces we saw others thrilling before exam. We simply could not understand why they don't know so easy things. Exam on that year was easier into my life. Just like signature after long essay.

This is good stress.

I'm not trying to be difficult or anything-- I think I see the point you are trying to make. But, in effect, the practical translation of this is "Mental illness isn't a real issue, what's really going on here is just some kids are weak and can't hack it." Which is one opinion, but I am not sure how adopting this as the explanation to the school shooting phenomenon, which is increasingly becoming worldwide, helps us find solutions to it. I think it falls under the category of reaction of "just chiding the shooters after the fact."

[Kadagar_AV]

I argue it is easy to kill anyone with both a knife AND a gun, just a bit more easy with a gun then a knife, that's is what. And besides, if someone sneaks up on you with a knife and he is good... well who wins? :juggle2:

That is absurd.

As Koga no Goshi stated, imagine if someone enters a classroom and stabs someone... Then he goes on to the next... How long would it take for 2-3 guys to jump him and wrestle him down? You can only do so much with a knife... Also, the initial victims would most likely survive. You have to be really good with a knife (or lucky) to kill someone fast.

Like the way you see in the movies, that is BS...

Now, I have trained Silat... There we practise anti-knife drills hard.

If a knife expert would sneak up on me I wouldnt have a chance.

If a 22 year old punk would enter my classroom with a knife he'd very soon be sprawling on the floor with a broken arm. If I was in a bad mood, he'd have a punctured lung too:)

Imagine the same 22 year old punk with a gun, now, all my training wouldnt help me (well, tbh, actually i would have a reasonable chance fighting a guy with a .22 in above scenario, if he didnt shoot me first).

But that is beside the point.

[Ferret]

Truly sad, looked a nice college as well :shame: