forgetting any voicemods?

[a completely inoffensive name]

After reading the EB FAQ over again, (as everyone should before asking a question) am I right that the current/upcoming voicemods that are/will be available:

Ancient Greek, Latin, Celtic and Punic

Am I forgetting/missing any?

Thanks.

[Mediolanicus]

Pahlava and proto-Germanic?

[Olaf The Great]

Pahlava and proto-Germanic?Theres already an Iranian Voice mod..I believe. Not sure what language exactly it is.

Proto-Germanic isn't completely "known" yet, also Sweboz are in the same cultural group as the Celts, so I don't know if you can separate the battle commands from Celtic to Germanic.

[Tellos Athenaios]

'Tis good to know, better yet to not tell... :grin: (Though you can pretty much look up the preview thread, to see what some goals are/were.)

[Shigawire]

Theres already an Iranian Voice mod..I believe. Not sure what language exactly it is.

Pahlava is the language.


Proto-Germanic isn't completely "known" yet, also Sweboz are in the same cultural group as the Celts, so I don't know if you can separate the battle commands from Celtic to Germanic.

Sure we don't "know" much about proto-germanic, but our primary linguist has "reconstructed" ProtoGermanic as best as he could, based on work done by Voyle and others.

The culture group problem is a technical problem which will not be an issue in EB2 due to the M2TW handling voices differently. :2thumbsup:

[Ibrahim]

@ Shigawire: is there a limit to the number of voices usable (a.k.a languages), in the mod?

I ask because:
1-I'm new to sound works
2-Chiv total war commisioned me to recruit, train, and render voice actors for their mod (no it will only be a simple voicemod)

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well can answer that for you.
(A) there are voice types. Assigned to units in EDU, and the various sounds text files map those to a mp3/wav...
(B) there are cultures involved, AFAIK you can have X voice types per culture; and you can't use culture Y for faction Z if Z has culture X (in other files).

Shigawire can answer in more detail, though.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Proto-Germanic isn't completely "known" yet, also Sweboz are in the same cultural group as the Celts, so I don't know if you can separate the battle commands from Celtic to Germanic.

Hell, it doesn't even matter how accurate the Germanic voicemod is as long as the Germanic units aren't speaking Celtic/absolutely nothing. It would even be better if the Sweboz spoke modern German or Yiddish than speaking Celtic/nothing. After all, modern German and Yiddish is still closer to what the Sweboz spoke. Same goes for Punic. If the EB team had someone who could speak Hebrew, it would be better if they recorded that instead of what the Qarthadastim speak currently.

BTW, why do the Phoenician Qarthadastim units speak some steppe language? Somehow, the Sarmatian units speak the same language as the Qarthadastim. Odd. I mean, I can understand the Qarthadastim units not saying anything or speaking accented Greek (Interesting because Greeks were their arch-nemesis), which is what they speak in EB v1.1 but why a steppe language?

[Foot]

We are doing the voicemods as fast as we can. I'm sorry if that isn't good enough for you, and I'm sorry if you feel that the placeholders are not good enough.

As you will have noted from above both the Proto-Germanic and the Punic voicemods are in the works. But because things must be created before they can be used (goddamn stupid causality!) you must wait.

I haven't played 1.1 in a long time but I see no reason why the Qarthadastim would speak Phalavi - that change may have occured by accident when it was implemented. Once again I prostrate myself before you almighty grace and beg forgiveness for the absence of completed work and for the obviously poor choice for placeholders. I shall not rest until the Sweboz speak Yiddish, the celts speak gaelic, the romans speak italian, and the greeks speak ... wel, greek.

Foot

[Aemilius Paulus]

I haven't played 1.1 in a long time but I see no reason why the Qarthadastim would speak Phalavi - that change may have occured by accident when it was implemented. Once again I prostrate myself before you almighty grace and beg forgiveness for the absence of completed work and for the obviously poor choice for placeholders. I shall not rest until the Sweboz speak Yiddish, the celts speak gaelic, the romans speak italian, and the greeks speak ... wel, greek.


For Heaven's sake, cut out your sarcasm! I was not in any way or manner rudely suggesting that your mod was incomplete or needed work, I was just wondering why the Qarthadastim speak the same language as the Sarmatians. I was also merely suggesting that the EB team could give the Sweboz and the Qarthadastim the modern variants of their language if they cannot replicate their ancient languages. Something is still better than nothing. I did not demand anything, I was merely curious about the Pahlava-Punic mix-up and suggested a couple of things.

For sarcasm there is Sarcasm you are Foot not Sarcasm, your job is to act literally as a foot and to stamp out inaccurate threads and posts, not to be sarcastic :laugh4:.

[Foot]

It was odd that you suggested we use modern variants when this thread already states the existence (if not completeness) of both a Proto-Germanic and Punic Voicemod.

How about people act a little less demanding. I'm getting quite sick of it.

Foot

[Aemilius Paulus]

How about people act a little less demanding. I'm getting quite sick of it.

Foot

Do you ever listen Foot?

Once again, in no way was I demanding, just suggesting and asking.

I know that the EB team is working very hard, not to mention that people have other things to do, not just EB, meaning that most of the EB team has to work in their real-life job as well as EB. I am a patient person and it does not matter to me if the voicemod is released in 5 months or in a year or two. Voicemod is not the most important thing in EB.

I too hate it when people demand various features, despite the obvious priority issues, or just demanding in general. It is annoying, I perfectly understand you Foot and I never demand anything from the EB team.


It was odd that you suggested we use modern variants when this thread already states the existence (if not completeness) of both a Proto-Germanic and Punic Voicemod.

I just said that in case the EB team has too much difficulty with the voicemods or cannot complete them due to insufficient information on the long-extinct forms of language.

[Tellos Athenaios]

BTW, why do the Phoenician Qarthadastim units speak some steppe language? Somehow, the Sarmatian units speak the same language as the Qarthadastim. Odd. I mean, I can understand the Qarthadastim units not saying anything or speaking accented Greek (Interesting because Greeks were their arch-nemesis), which is what they speak in EB v1.1 but why a steppe language?

Brilliant conclusion, I applaud. But completely off, nonetheless: since no voices (as you said) is worse than something slighlty possible all factions that do not have a Voicemod of their own speak Greek. Never knew that Greek is from the steppes, btw. :grin:

[blitzkrieg80]

I just want to point out that Proto-Germanic is too late for the EB timeframe and that Pre-Germanic Indo-European is the technical name for it, which indeed I have reconstructed, so it is a matter of time and effort in making it sound authentic... even if it comes late I will make sure there it can be added to EB1.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I just want to point out that Proto-Germanic is too late for the EB timeframe and that Pre-Germanic Indo-European is the technical name for it, which indeed I have reconstructed, so it is a matter of time and effort in making it sound authentic... even if it comes late I will make sure there it can be added to EB1.

I think this must be echoed towards the Pahlavîg voice-mod as well; a dire lack of resources, especially publically available sources contribute to these compromises. In the case of Pahlavîg voice-mod, the bulk of it is derived from Sassanian and Medieval Zoroastrian Pahlavîg, which of course offers a somewhat ample vocabulary, and does not deviate too drastically from the exhibits we do have from Arsacid Pahlavîg (As found in Manichaean manuscripts such as Shâpûhragân, Drakht Asûrîg ûd Buz, the early Sassanian inscriptions at Naqsh-î Rustam, or the excavated Nîsâ ostraca). However because it was a joint effort with IBFD, it comes to its own use, which is indeed better than nothing.

Therefore I would call this a "Simplified Pahlavî" which in its current state fits the Sassanian entity much better; in this front we have a long way to go, and at need we might need to "patch" the intended Parthian language with traces of Gîlakî, some Old Persian, Pârnîg if available, Aramaïc/Huzvârîshn loan-words, and indeed emphasize the need for Soghdian.

But what we ultimately have done is a tremendous first step. From a sculpter's point of view, we basically changed the material with which to work, and from here with the rough cuts, it's much easier to envision something of a "final product", tentatively speaking.

[SwissBarbar]

For the Swêbôz i suggest Swissgerman or another southgerman alemannic dialect, wich would be even more similar than modern high-german i think :2thumbsup:

[Foot]

I think you misunderstood Blitzkrieg80, he has reconstructed the language we will be using for the Sweboz.

Foot

[artavazd]

Will we still be implementing an Armenian voice mod, or will that just be carried over to EB2?

[Foot]

The Armenian voicemod will appear in EBI, but it will be made during the EBII development period.

Foot

[artavazd]

The Armenian voicemod will appear in EBI, but it will be made during the EBII development period.

Foot


Just contact me whenever your ready

[Aemilius Paulus]

The Armenian voicemod will appear in EBI.

Foot

Wow, a separate Armenian voice mod? EB must have a lot of resources, which is good of course, to make an entire voicemod for just one faction, especially so small and relatively insignificant (please don't flame me, after all, the Armenians weren't as pivotal as Seleukids, Romans, Parthians, Greeks, etc) . I know that EB doesn't work on a certain faction just because it was important and that EB attempts to accurately recreate all factions equally, but there is still a reason why the Celtic, Latin, and Greek voicemods were on of the first ones made. I'm guessing that is because the Ancient Armenian was very similar to the modern version, right?

So what voicemods is the EB team planning to do in the near/far future or is already doing? Seems that the Germanic and Pahlava, as well as the Armenian ones are going to come out, but are there any other?

[satalexton]

wow, wt bout pontos, surely they speak their own brand of persian do they not?

[artavazd]

Wow, a separate Armenian voice mod? EB must have a lot of resources, which is good of course, to make an entire voicemod for just one faction, especially so small and relatively insignificant (please don't flame me, after all, the Armenians weren't as pivotal as Seleukids, Romans, Parthians, Greeks, etc) . I know that EB doesn't work on a certain faction just because it was important and that EB attempts to accurately recreate all factions equally, but there is still a reason why the Celtic, Latin, and Greek voicemods were on of the first ones made. I'm guessing that is because the Ancient Armenian was very similar to the modern version, right?

So what voicemods is the EB team planning to do in the near/far future or is already doing? Seems that the Germanic and Pahlava, as well as the Armenian ones are going to come out, but are there any other?

The Seleukids, Romans, Parthians, and Greeks (later with the Byzantines) All thought Armenia was very pivitol or else they wouldnt have made the region the focus of importance/conquest.

[artavazd]

wow, wt bout pontos, surely they speak their own brand of persian do they not?

That is an interesting question. I think the people of Pontus spoke Greek. Thus the term Pontic Greek.

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Aemilius Paulus: you seem to have a distorted view of what type of Voicemod we are talking about. The type in this case applies to specific units, and not as much to specific factions. It is similar to how Celtic units of the Arche Seleukeia will still use the Celtic Voicemod, regardless of the fact that the Arche uses the Greek one. Hence, Armenian units in the employ of whatever faction should end up speaking Armenian.

[Foot]

Well it will also include general commands as well. If we can add as many voicemod cultures as we like I'll probably go so far as to add battle events to the list as well.

Foot

[Aemilius Paulus]

The Seleukids, Romans, Parthians, and Greeks (later with the Byzantines) All thought Armenia was very pivitol or else they wouldnt have made the region the focus of importance/conquest.

You're right, it was. It was a pivotal nation. Armenia was the morsel of land that the Romans and later Byzantines always fought over with other nations as well as with Armenia itself. However, I was saying that the Seleukids, Romans, Parthians, and Greeks were more, most likely much more pivotal. Armenia made a difference, but certainly not as big. It is, after all, far easier to imagine history without Armenia than without Greeks, Romans, Seleukids, or Makedonia for instance. Not accepting the fact that some nations were simply more important than others is an ever present problem with people, as I have observed.

To Tellos Athenaios: Yeah, I realized that recently as well. However, I have heard that some of parts of the voicemod apply to cultures as a whole, such as when you select a couple of units instead of one, n'est-ce pas?

[artavazd]

You're right, it was. It was a pivotal nation. Armenia was the morsel of land that the Romans and later Byzantines always fought over with other nations as well as with Armenia itself. However, I was saying that the Seleukids, Romans, Parthians, and Greeks were more, most likely much more pivotal. Armenia made a difference, but certainly not as big. It is, after all, far easier to imagine history without Armenia than without Greeks, Romans, Seleukids, or Makedonia for instance. Not accepting the fact that some nations were simply more important than others is an ever present problem with people, as I have observed.

To Tellos Athenaios: Yeah, I realized that recently as well. However, I have heard that some of parts of the voicemod apply to cultures as a whole, such as when you select a couple of units instead of one, n'est-ce pas?


First of all your comment that I have made in bold is offensive. I will however tell you this in the Long and I mean very long history of Armenia many nations that you might view as "more important" have tryed to do just that. However they have all failed miserably, and many of those "important" nations do not even exist today. While Armenia has kept its traditions and culture alive for over three thousand years. Now my friend I think that in itself makes Armenia a very important nation.

You need to do more research MUCH MUCH more research. FIrst of all what is it that the Seleukids did that outweighs over 3000 years of Armenian history?? Where are the Seleukids?? Erebuni which is modern Yerevan was built in 782BC 29 years before the name Rome even existed. Armenian art and arcitecture have added much wealth to Human civilization. European gothic churches were inspired by Armenian Church architecture. Armenia was one of the centers of the Neolithic agricultural revolution not to mention irrigation, and metalurgy

[Aemilius Paulus]

I was talking about Armenia's impact on history, not its longevity, which I do find pretty amazing, especially during the time when some Armenians migrated to Kilikia and founded an independent kingdom there, during the Crusades.

I am sorry that you felt that some of my comment were offensive. I tried my best not offend anyone, especially an Armenian fan/native(?) such as you. Once again, I'd like to point out how unnecessarily touchy and assertive people get when their nation is called unimportant. Are you trying to argue that Armenia was more important then the Syrian Empire/Arche Seleukia? I agree that Armenia was important, but to say that it was more crucial then the Seleukids or especially the Romans and Greeks is, well ... just not what I believe to be true.

I was born in Ukraine, but lived m life in Russia. I would not mind for instance, if someone called Ukraine or Russia (before 20th century - when it became really important with WWII and Cold War) unimportant. There is always arguments for both sides. Also, please note that I am not trying to start flaming. I'd like to keep this discussion civil.

[a completely inoffensive name]

How exactly do you measure a culture's impact on history? Is there a chart with guidelines that has different levels like "somewhat", "little" or "huge"?

[Aemilius Paulus]

How exactly do you measure a culture's impact on history? Is there a chart with guidelines that has different levels like "somewhat", "little" or "huge"?

C'mon lets not play dumb. You know what I mean, with all due respect, the Romans and Greeks had more of an impact on the history of the world than Armenia. You don't exactly need a chart to figure that out.

[artavazd]

I was talking about Armenia's impact on history, not its longevity, which I do find pretty amazing, especially during the time when some Armenians migrated to Kilikia and founded an independent kingdom there, during the Crusades.

I am sorry that you felt that some of my comment were offensive. I tried my best not offend anyone, especially an Armenian fan/native(?) such as you. Once again, I'd like to point out how unnecessarily touchy and assertive people get when their nation is called unimportant. Are you trying to argue that Armenia was more important then the Syrian Empire/Arche Seleukia? I agree that Armenia was important, but to say that it was more crucial then the Seleukids or especially the Romans and Greeks is, well ... just not what I believe to be true.

I was born in Ukraine, but lived m life in Russia. I would not mind for instance, if someone called Ukraine or Russia (before 20th century - when it became really important with WWII and Cold War) unimportant. There is always arguments for both sides. Also, please note that I am not trying to start flaming. I'd like to keep this discussion civil.



I did list some of the impacts Armenia has had. One of several impacts that I did not mention, is that Armenia has historicaly been the gates to Europe in the East. From the TIme of the Ararat Kingdom(Urartu) of Armenia when the Assyrians were checked from advancing north and west, to the invasion of Arabs, Iranians,Turks, Mongols... One of two things happend. One either Armenia checked the invaders, or felt the full impact of those invasions, thus weakening the invading force by the time they got to eastern Europe.

Also look at this link http://www.huliq.com/56596/stonehenge-england-3500-years-younger-armenian-karahunj

Also why do you call the Arche Seleukia "Syrian Empire"? what the heck was Syrian about a Greek Empire? Also I will like to mention that the inhabitants of Antioch called on the Armenian King Tigran the Great (KIng of Kings) to get rid of the Seleukids in their city and they willingly became part of the Armenian Empire. That happend in the 80's BC which basicaly ended Arche Seleukia. Now we are at 2008 AD Armenia is on the map but where is "Arche Seleukia"


Russia was not unimportant before the 20th century. Ivan the terrible, Peter the Great do these names ring a bell? I am sorry to say, but your knowledge of history is very scetchy.

[blitzkrieg80]

:ahem: Armenia (in the general geographical sense- such as the steppe nearby [t'was not Russia, Ukraine, or Kazakistan at the time]) continues to be one of the best candidates for the Indo-European homeland, which really trumps any Greco-Roman nonsense ~;p in terms of culture and importance

[Gleemonex]

Rome was completely insignificant to the Inca. The Jōmon people were inconsequential to the Prussians. The Zulu Empire was unimportant to the Tsimshian. But I'll bet you anything the Armenians are pretty important to Armenians!

(It's a subjective term, you see)

-Glee

[Aemilius Paulus]

I called it the Syrian Empire because that is the way it is called in Russia, by everyone and everything. Don't ask why, I don't know myself. Could be because of the fact that Antioch was the capital of it for quite some time.

Please, call me anything but ignorant in history. One could not make a greater insult than that. History is pretty much all I live for. I excel in it and that is my main strength. I never said Russia was unimportant. What I really said, If you have read it more carefully, was that you can call Russia and Ukraine unimportant and it will not offend me, unlike you getting offended for having your country slandered that way. Russia was very important, especially during 19th and 18th centuries. However, some people might argue that nations like Britain were more important. During WWII and Cold War, one would be an idiot to deny Russia's importance. It was a major world power then, with one of the largest and best armies and also with the largest land territory.

I would not agree however that Russia was very important in the 1500s-1600s though. Ivan IV was an important Russian figure and he greatly expanded Russia's territory, but outside of Russia, his impact was very limited. After him there was the lengthy Time of Troubles, which cut off Russia from mast foreign powers, although Poland as well as some other Central European Catholic nations did intervene. Peter I was another momentous ruler but he mainly impacted countries such as Sweden and Ottoman Empire, whom he fought against as well as Poland, who was likewise involved in the Great Northern War. Effects on, say, Western Europe were somewhat significant but not as important as minor policies of Britain or France of that time, for example. There were nations far more crucial than Russia at that time. The first time Russia really becomes a world power was during the Seven Years War and of course the Napoleonic Wars.

For God's sake, don't assume that I do not know who Ivan IV or Peter I was. I probably even know more about them than you, having done extensive research on both of them. They were one of the most famous tsars of Russia, and being Russian I ought to know more than any other foreigner. You know your Armenian history better than me, without a doubt, but I have Russian history on my side. I also specialize in Antiquity as well as European history from the Dark Ages to now. My knowledge of Armenia on the other hand only covers a tiny bit of ancient history, the time between the fall of Sleukids to the time when Byzantine Empire fell (the period I know most about), some fragmented knowledge during Early Middle Ages and quite a bit of modern, 20th century history. I am sure you know the history of Armenia better than that.

It is either you're trying to prove your nation's importance too hard, or your nationalistic ego is a bit too inflated.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Now I am thinking this might be getting too off topic and will be promptly crushed by the Foot.

[Tellos Athenaios]

To Tellos Athenaios: Yeah, I realized that recently as well. However, I have heard that some of parts of the voicemod apply to cultures as a whole, such as when you select a couple of units instead of one, n'est-ce pas?

Yes. Which is what happens if an Armenian unit leads the battle, so in other words: that should only happen with armies composed of primarily Armenian units. Either a local army then (for which it makes good sense to use Armenian) or an army of an Armenian polity. In either case, that's a cool immersive feature isn't it?

Also, I forgot to tell you; the number of Voicemods isn't neccesarily an indication of the (wo)man-power EB got: quite a few are joint efforts, opportunities to work with people outside EB and/or it may involve team members who'se efforts are wasted elsewhere. I mean, I can 'do' Ancient Greek a bit but I'm worthless by any form of decent standards when it comes to historical research. So, I'll hope to find time to do more on the Ancient Greek Voicemod, but the fact that I do does not indicate EB is -in theory- ready to release the Hellenistic factions.

@Foot: yeah, I see what you mean however there is a difference between 'EB 1' and 'EB 2': in EB 1 as we both know it would be impossible due to similar restrictions as those that apply to the Voicemod for the Sweboz in EB 1. In EB 2 with its system of accents, thats a whole different matter and if we have the opportunity .... it's going to be so awesome. :grin:

[blitzkrieg80]

Russia (the geographical unit) is not necessarily defined by the Slavs. Russia was quite a bit important all the while steppe peoples poured forth (which is quite a span of time)... one cannot say the Scythic culture zone was inconsequential, nor the Kipchak, ect. Central Asia is equally underestimated and luckily has been getting some due attention such as in EB with the help of such knowledgeable interested people as we've got. It may be that the oasis cities and high Islamic / Persian cultures of Central Asia makes it seem more immediately 'important' than pagans in Eurasia, but as has been argued, that is a very subjective thing. Religion in many ways helps the spread of literacy and the cultural value associated with the great works produced, but in many ways, the stories written were just as valuable as a piece of oral tradition, if not more valuable, because oral tradition keeps it fluid and dynamic, changing aspects on the fly depending on audience, changing words to make the story new every time. Jazz came about from this very thing, because improvisation is an important aspect of human culture that is NOT helped by literacy despite its best efforts.

[artavazd]

:ahem: Armenia (in the general geographical sense- such as the steppe nearby [t'was not Russia, Ukraine, or Kazakistan at the time]) continues to be one of the best candidates for the Indo-European homeland, which really trumps any Greco-Roman nonsense ~;p in terms of culture and importance

You will be interested in this. http://www.arak29.am/PDF_PPT/origins_2004.pdf

Also check out the works of Colin Renfrew, Vyacheslav Ivanov, Thomas Gamkrelidze, Atkins and Gray

[artavazd]

I called it the Syrian Empire because that is the way it is called in Russia, by everyone and everything. Don't ask why, I don't know myself. Could be because of the fact that Antioch was the capital of it for quite some time.

Please, call me anything but ignorant in history. One could not make a greater insult than that. History is pretty much all I live for. I excel in it and that is my main strength. I never said Russia was unimportant. What I really said, If you have read it more carefully, was that you can call Russia and Ukraine unimportant and it will not offend me, unlike you getting offended for having your country slandered that way. Russia was very important, especially during 19th and 18th centuries. However, some people might argue that nations like Britain were more important. During WWII and Cold War, one would be an idiot to deny Russia's importance. It was a major world power then, with one of the largest and best armies and also with the largest land territory.

I would not agree however that Russia was very important in the 1500s-1600s though. Ivan IV was an important Russian figure and he greatly expanded Russia's territory, but outside of Russia, his impact was very limited. After him there was the lengthy Time of Troubles, which cut off Russia from mast foreign powers, although Poland as well as some other Central European Catholic nations did intervene. Peter I was another momentous ruler but he mainly impacted countries such as Sweden and Ottoman Empire, whom he fought against as well as Poland, who was likewise involved in the Great Northern War. Effects on, say, Western Europe were somewhat significant but not as important as minor policies of Britain or France of that time, for example. There were nations far more crucial than Russia at that time. The first time Russia really becomes a world power was during the Seven Years War and of course the Napoleonic Wars.

For God's sake, don't assume that I do not know who Ivan IV or Peter I was. I probably even know more about them than you, having done extensive research on both of them. They were one of the most famous tsars of Russia, and being Russian I ought to know more than any other foreigner. You know your Armenian history better than me, without a doubt, but I have Russian history on my side. I also specialize in Antiquity as well as European history from the Dark Ages to now. My knowledge of Armenia on the other hand only covers a tiny bit of ancient history, the time between the fall of Sleukids to the time when Byzantine Empire fell (the period I know most about), some fragmented knowledge during Early Middle Ages and quite a bit of modern, 20th century history. I am sure you know the history of Armenia better than that.

It is either you're trying to prove your nation's importance too hard, or your nationalistic ego is a bit too inflated.


Sir there is a lot more Armenian history pretaining to the ancient era that covers more than the time between the fall of the Seleukids and and the fall of the Byzantine Empire. Just look at the link I have posted in the above post, and check out the scholars that I have mentioned in that post as well. The mentioning of Armenia-Armani is found on Akkadian tablets dating to around 2300 BC. This exact tablet is found in the Museum in London. Also the Sumerians make mention of the land of Arata(Ararat) they talk of extended trade with the people of Arata. Also mention the skilled stone crafters that came to Sumeria and worked on their ziggurats.

I suggest for the sake of knowledge to check out the works of the above mentioned scholars. This is new scholary work and findings based on Archeology, Lingustics, and historical primary sources.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Sir there is a lot more Armenian history pretaining to the ancient era that covers more than the time between the fall of the Seleukids and and the fall of the Byzantine Empire.

Yeah, I know that. That is why I said I know only this period, to emphasize the gaps in my knowledge of Armenian history. My pre-Seleukid knowledge of the history history of Armenia is very basic, with only the knowledge of the most important events.

[blitzkrieg80]

from what i can tell, we're all in agreement ~:) we just like to talk.

artavazd, cool .pdf link, thanks - enjoyable read.

[artavazd]

from what i can tell, we're all in agreement ~:) we just like to talk.

artavazd, cool .pdf link, thanks - enjoyable read.

Your are welcome sir. That article is based on the works of Colin Renfrew, Vyacheslav Ivanov, Thomas Gamkrelidze, Atkins and Gray

[artavazd]

Yeah, I know that. That is why I said I know only this period, to emphasize the gaps in my knowledge of Armenian history. My pre-Seleukid knowledge of the history history of Armenia is very basic, with only the knowledge of the most important events.

That is very understandable. Since recently not a lot of study has gone into the very ancient history of Armenia. The possibilites of scholars doing seriouse work on the subject was just not there. Now there is intrest in the subject, and the scholars that I mentioned have done seriouse work on this very matter.

ps: If you have interest (or anyone else for that matter) on the very Ancient history of Armenia and Armenians there is a book that was published I think in 2006 by Boris Baratov (it is in English) the name of the book is The Armeniad

[Anastasios Helios]

*pours water on the flames here*

I'm available to help with an English voice mod...if it's needed XD

[gamegeek2]

OK, is there any preview for a Punic/Semitic voice mod? Though historically general orders were given in Greek by the Carthaginians, I'm sure officers of Liby-Phoenician, Libyan, and the elite Phoenician units gave orders in Punic for the most part. I'm sure Sabaean orders were native-only, except Ethiopian units.

Eimi ad Europa Barbarorum leidan

[Pontius Pilate]

First of all your comment that I have made in bold is offensive. I will however tell you this in the Long and I mean very long history of Armenia many nations that you might view as "more important" have tryed to do just that. However they have all failed miserably, and many of those "important" nations do not even exist today. While Armenia has kept its traditions and culture alive for over three thousand years. Now my friend I think that in itself makes Armenia a very important nation.

You need to do more research MUCH MUCH more research. FIrst of all what is it that the Seleukids did that outweighs over 3000 years of Armenian history?? Where are the Seleukids?? Erebuni which is modern Yerevan was built in 782BC 29 years before the name Rome even existed. Armenian art and arcitecture have added much wealth to Human civilization. European gothic churches were inspired by Armenian Church architecture. Armenia was one of the centers of the Neolithic agricultural revolution not to mention irrigation, and metalurgy


No offense, but I don't think you can compare the influence Rome had on the world with Armenia. So what if ancient Roman civilization no longer exists. It has left a legacy that is remembered to this day by people all over the world. When you mention ancient Rome almost anyone can identify with what you're talking about, but when you mention Armenia hardly anyone even knows that country even exists today.

[Anastasios Helios]

No offense, but I don't think you can compare the influence Rome had on the world with Armenia. So what if ancient Roman civilization no longer exists. It has left a legacy that is remembered to this day by people all over the world. When you mention ancient Rome almost anyone can identify with what you're talking about, but when you mention Armenia hardly anyone even knows that country even exists today.

Kyrie Elesion! Armenia is a wonderful country with a long history of survival in the face of overwhelming odds. Armenia survived attacks from Persians, Greeks/Byzantines, Romans, Seljuks, Ottomans, Russians, etc. for many many centures and their culture and civilization is still there intact. If you were Armenian or Pontian or Georgian, what would "Roman Civilization" mean to you? It depends only on location. To an Italian or Romanian person, Roman culture and civilization probably means alot...I'm sure that people in Eastern Anatolia, Armenia, or the Caucausus region finds Armenian civilization to be just as important as Roman civilization is for Westerners...

[Gleemonex]

No offense, but I don't think you can compare the influence Rome had on the world with Armenia. So what if ancient Roman civilization no longer exists. It has left a legacy that is remembered to this day by people all over the world. When you mention ancient Rome almost anyone can identify with what you're talking about, but when you mention Armenia hardly anyone even knows that country even exists today.

I see someone forgot to read his Gleemonex this morning:


Rome was completely insignificant to the Inca. The Jōmon people were inconsequential to the Prussians. The Zulu Empire was unimportant to the Tsimshian. But I'll bet you anything the Armenians are pretty important to Armenians!

(It's a subjective term, you see)

-Glee

Also, you can hardly be considered a neutral voice when your name is Pontius Pilate ~:joker:

Seriously though, the whole point of EB is to dispel the false notion that Rome = The World.

-Glee

[Strategos Alexandros]

:ahem: Armenia (in the general geographical sense- such as the steppe nearby [t'was not Russia, Ukraine, or Kazakistan at the time]) continues to be one of the best candidates for the Indo-European homeland, which really trumps any Greco-Roman nonsense ~;p in terms of culture and importance

No Armenia = No Rome if Armenia really was the Indo-European homeland.

[bovi]

No Armenia = No Rome if Armenia really was the Indo-European homeland.
:inquisitive: So you think no other people could have had the same success, if Indo-Europeans had not been those who were there?


when you mention Armenia hardly anyone even knows that country even exists today.
In the US, you mean perhaps? I do agree that Rome is more known, but many people here on the other side of the pond know of Armenia. Then again, I'm weak on knowledge of the many nations in the parts of the world that are remote, like the non-huge nations in central America and Asia.

[Strategos Alexandros]

No, but it does seem unlikely they would have had that success in the same place.
If you mean the Romans, that is, not the Indo-Europeans.

[bovi]

Empires come and go, and many were trying to create one at the time. If not for Roman dominance, I believe another dominant empire would have been created in the time period.

[Pontius Pilate]

Also, you can hardly be considered a neutral voice when your name is Pontius Pilate ~:joker:

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:



About what Bovi said. Of course alot of people on this forum will know alot about Armenia. The people on this forum will also know alot more about geography, and history in general because we all love those subjects, (hence we play games like EB). I guess I meant people in the US, but then again I don't think many Australians or far east asians will be experts on Armenian history and impact on the world.



Seriously though, the whole point of EB is to dispel the false notion that Rome = The World.

-Glee[/QUOTE]


First off Rome = The World is not true. But then again in EB it also has the most attention given to it, or should I say it is the most complete with the three reforms and the latin voice mod. Well it all seems that its a matter of opinion then, on who is more important. I'm guessing if you already think Armenia is more important than there is going to be nothing that will make you think Rome is more important and vice versa.

[gamegeek2]

The real reason Rome gets so much attention is because they were the victors. History, as we all know, is written by the victors. Their language survives to modern times intact, as well as extremely detailed records of their history.

The next-best detailed people are the Hellenes, because their language (Classical Greek) survives via scholars as well, and so do their records. Unfortunately, there is a lot less about Ancient Armenia.

I personally believe that the Indo-European homeland is just north of the Caucasus (they seemed to be a nomadic/pastoral people).

[artavazd]

For around 500 years Armenia as an independent nation did not exist. Since 1375 when the Kingdom of Cilicia fell to Mameluk and Turkish forces untill 1991 Armenia as a nation did not exist. During this 500 years there was no oppertunity to do any extensive study on Armenians or Armenian civilization. The larger part of Armenia which was under Ottoman rule was supressed and when in the late 19th century the Armenian inteligencia from Constantinople (Istanbul) was begining to revive interest in Armenians for their history The Genocide put an end to this. Now in the eastern Part of Armenia which was under Soviet rule any kind of action which was deemed "nationalistic" was crushed. THis will include any studies on Armenian history by Armenian scholars let alone non Armenian scholars from Europe or United States. Now since 1991 when the soviet part of Armenia regained Independence there is the oppertunity for seriouse scholarly work on Ancient Armenian history. The scholars that I have mentioned in the previouse posts have done seriouse scholary work, and the home land for Indo-European speaking People is now favoured to be in the Armenian Highlands. This theory is based on archiological, lingusitical, and historical sources.


I have never said Rome or Greece is insignificant. They are very significant. Yet one has to understand that much scholary work has gone into those civilizations thus we know much about those civilizations. Also I never said the Romans do not exist. In my opinion the Italians of Rome and central Italy are the decendats of the Romans.


I have provided names of scholars and recent scholary work that has been done on Ancient Armenian history. WHo ever is interested is welcome to check out the scholars and their works concerning this issue.


Pontius Pilate, In the United States all people know of ancient history is Rome, Greeks, and Egyptians. I am sorry but saying that "no one knows of Armenia" in the United States is very understandable, because in America people cant even find Australia on the map.


I have attended college in America, and in my Ancient Greece class the professor did not even know about the Persians, Lydians, and other people who if one is a professor of Ancient Greece should have a knowledge of.

[Pontius Pilate]

For around 500 years Armenia as an independent nation did not exist.


Pontius Pilate, In the United States all people know of ancient history is Rome, Greeks, and Egyptians. I am sorry but saying that "no one knows of Armenia" in the United States is very understandable, because in America people cant even find Australia on the map.


I have attended college in America, and in my Ancient Greece class the professor did not even know about the Persians, Lydians, and other people who if one is a professor of Ancient Greece should have a knowledge of.


Yes, I admit it is very unfortunate that most Americans are ignorant in geography, history, and other world cultures.



By: gamegeek 2. --The real reason Rome gets so much attention is because they were the victors. History, as we all know, is written by the victors. Their language survives to modern times intact, as well as extremely detailed records of their history.

The next-best detailed people are the Hellenes, because their language (Classical Greek) survives via scholars as well, and so do their records. Unfortunately, there is a lot less about Ancient Armenia.

Is it a bad thing that Rome gets all the attention because they were the victors? I mean they did conquer many peoples including almost all of the factions in EB. Which is no easy task. Are you saying history is deluded or propagnada by the victors?


P.S. - My sig has nothing to do with my point of view on this topic. Seriously.

[Foot]

Yes, it is very unfortunate that Rome gets all the attention. It skews the modern perception of the ancient world and allows us to neglect, ignore and actively re-write the influence on those conquered peoples who hold an equal part in our history. Plus, Rome is boring. Give me Armenia anyday.

Foot

[Pontius Pilate]

Yes, it is very unfortunate that Rome gets all the attention. It skews the modern perception of the ancient world and allows us to neglect, ignore and actively re-write the influence on those conquered peoples who hold an equal part in our history. Plus, Rome is boring. Give me Armenia anyday.

Foot

Wow. Pretty strong words. Well I think Rome deserves all the attention it gets because it accomplished so many things and laid the foundation for western society for centuries to come. I am not going to insult or downplay other factions like Armenia, other factions were important too I admit, but I do think you're treating Rome way too unfairly. Rome was one of the greatest civilizations ever to exist or will exist, and is in nooo way boring. ~:argue:

[Aemilius Paulus]

I'd leave Foot alone if I were you. He is just hates the way Rome gets all the attention, after all he's right that Rome is the reason why people know so little about other nations of Antiquity. I doubt he truly feels that Roman history is boring. Plus, he's the current leader of EB development team - it's best to be on good terms with him.

I also agree with you that Rome was the most important nation of its time, but there are people with other opinions (however wrong they might be :laugh4:) as well.

[Pontius Pilate]

I meant no offense to Foot or anyone else, sorry if I offended. I was merely saying my opinion. Thanks for the support Aemilius Paulus, glad to see another Romani fan here. ~:)

[The Persian Cataphract]

This passage from Justin's Historiarum Philippicarum is to me the perfect counter of anyone who seeks to deliberately downplay the macro-historical significance, influence and importance of Armenia in the alleged shade of Graeco-Roman or even Persianate cultures:


"...Sed quoniam in Armeniam transitum facimus, origo eius paulo altius repetenda est. Neque enim silentio tantum regnum praeteriri fas est, cum fines eius post Parthiam omnium regnorum magnitudinem superent..."

"...But since we here make a transition to Armenia, we must look a little farther back into its origin; for it is not right that so great a kingdom should be passed in silence, since its territory, next to that of Parthia, is of greater extent than any other kingdom..." Liber XLII, Vol.2

Marcus Junianius Justinus, a Roman of his time, acknowledges the greatness of this sacred land of Ararat. The bosom of Armenia, including her famed foothills, was a land harboured between the rivers Halys, Kura and Araxes, the plains of Albania, the mountains of Iberia, the forests of Hyrcania and Colchis, the deserts of Assyria and the steppes of Cappadocia. A vast stretch extending their culture well into the cultures of the Black and Caspian seas.

Two of the dynasties of this land were of Iranian descent. The Achaemenid high nobility. The Iranians would call them the kings of "Arvand". The Greeks would call them the kings of "Orontes". The Armenians call them the Yervanduni. The other Iranic dynasty, the successors of the famed Artaxiads, the Arsacid cadet branch, Arshakuni, have an even more lasting influence. It was through an Arsacid that Armenia would become the first nation to institutionalize Christianity as her state religion. Some say it is an irony. Others maintain that it set Armenia culturally more apart from her Persianate cousins, previously the Arsacid and Sassanid dynasties of the Greater Iran. From the Iranian perspective, the Armenian history is an absolutely crucial component.

The mob has never been an adequately objective "instrument" of measurement of historical or cultural impact as some of you would like to suggest. It only measures popular appeal, and hardly serves as a reflection of facts. I can certainly understand Artavazd might be disgruntled by someone like Mr. Aemilius "Politically Incorrect" Paulus, who is already infamous for making rash entries on arbitrating cultural significance of other nations. The culture of Armenia does not need to gratuitously flaunt its greatness just to satisfy popular curricula; it is survived by its own beautiful script, institutionalized by the eminent Mashtots, and a respectable collection of historiography written by Vartapet Yeghishe, and Sebeos. To Iranian history, these works are invaluable treasures.

Last but not least, one of the greatest Armenian rulers, Tigranes carved for himself an empire from absolutely nothing. He was a key-personality during the first Parthian civil war and that of the Mithridatic wars, and was the last of several persons to have sank the Seleucid hegemony into final decline.

Who cares about the mob? Ask a teenager about Marc Anthony and Cleopatra and he or she will probably answer "the most romantic couple of Antiquity" or "Romeo and Juliet of the ancient era". A historian schooled in Armenian history will however answer "The political Bonnie and Clyde of their time", or even go as far as to say that they were the grotesque result of Ptolemaïc incest and Roman egomania. Which really isn't that far from the truth. It's a refreshingly sobering read to be made aware of their strangulation of Armenia. Not quite like Liz Taylor, eh? Sounds like a lot of Rome-bashing, but the bizarre fact is that the likes of Cassius Dio, Plutarch and Justin passed down this information for our reading. Either the Romans weren't all "The world is Rome" as much as Hollywood would like to orgasm to, or the mob needs to shape up. My money's on the latter.

The world is Rome. If the world was no greater than the stupidity of the common man, that is. Armenia needs no justification to satisfy the common sensibilities. She doesn't need the historical size of her Graeco-Roman and Iranian cousins to have a comparable beauty.

And to top it off, "Western Civilization", a phrase that I do not personally accept, needs to get a clue as far as the Graeco-Roman civilization is concerned. There was more to Europe, but it wasn't this perverted, skewed perception on a homogeneous commonwealth European identity standing opposite to their Oriental rivals. I hear most of this cacophony from Scandinavians, Western-Europeans and the Americans. This sort of inspiration, which is far much more apt as far as designations are concerned are not limited to nor the property of Europe, but stretches far into the depths of Asia, with the Sassanian city of Bîshâpûr being far more ample than some occasional potsherd in Britain.

I do not condone or propose the down-playing of any significant cosmopolitan culture; the inflation of Graeco-Roman culture by Eurocentric "scholarship" is a perversion of facts more serious than the contemporary sensationalism in the primary sources. They come at the expense of other cultures, and to point out these discrepancies is only fair and a standard in the protocal of scholarly peer-review. I constantly remind my Arab friends about the rich heritage of the pre-Islamic Arabian cultures, which were left in the shadows of Islam as an "age of ignorance" in spite of the fact that they had their own highly developed script and left behind themselves a significant number of written works. That the "idols" that Mohammed Ibn Abd'allah denoted as "false", were in fact elaborate statues and highly developed works of art. That the backwardness and poverty of the Arabs before Islam is in fact contrasted by the lush landscapes of the Mar'ib.

The mob means nothing to me. If they haven't at least bothered to have read A.E. Redgate's "The Armenians", let alone taken a glimpse of the exquisite works of Mark Chahin and Cyril Toumanoff, then I will not even pay heed to their valueless impressions of historical Armenia.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I meant no offense to Foot or anyone else, sorry if I offended.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I never said that you offended anyone, I was merely warning you that it doesn't take a lot to turn Foot against you. Better watch out for him - he stays true to his name, crushing every post that is goes against history and EB~:)!

[Pontius Pilate]

The mob has never been an adequately objective "instrument" of measurement of historical or cultural impact as some of you would like to suggest. It only measures popular appeal, and hardly serves as a reflection of facts.
The mob means nothing to me. If they haven't at least bothered to have read A.E. Redgate's "The Armenians", let alone taken a glimpse of the exquisite works of Mark Chahin and Cyril Toumanoff, then I will not even pay heed to their valueless impressions of historical Armenia.

wow, that was quite a large post. and yes non-western cultures are very important and had a large impact on the world. and yes the mob or common people, are not a very good instrument to measure anything for that matter. But then again history has shown that the mob itself has more times than not played a huge part in the history of the world. The fate of entire nations and empires has been decided by the mob. A person who wants to make a huge difference in the world usually needs the support of the mob if they want to get anywhere. It might not seem fair, but that is just how things work in this world.

[blitzkrieg80]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I never said that you offended anyone, I was merely warning you that it doesn't take a lot to turn Foot against you. Better watch out for him - he stays true to his name, crushing every post that is goes against history and EB~:)!

although you might have the right intention at heart, this is still untrue- EB tolerates quite a high degree of skepticism, criticism and anachronism, nonetheless spam for the sake of spam and troll-feeding... sometimes Foot or other moderators might need to put a stop to such for the sake of the community (thank the Heavens), but it is hardly any infringement on free speech / thought or police state implied by the all or nothing mentioned. The high degree of posts NOT deleted and threads NOT locked when they should be (such as this one), besides threads only locked much later, all illustrate what I say concerning censorship. We all know how out of control the 'mob' is when it comes to trollspamination [yes, a new word I invented just now ~;)], so let us not discuss why censorship and moderators exist on the internet in the first place...

PS - Persian Cataphract, you only mention Scandinavia because you have lived there ~;) it is hardly so interolerant or Romanocentric to get special mention...

PPS - Rome never conquered Germany, nor Persia, besides others. Winning battles (forays against tangible armies) is hardly 'conquest'. Being uncontested at times along their borders maybe-so. Napoleon won IN Russia, yet did not conquer it.

*- Here's the philosophical question of the day: should a culture be highly valued for its historical spam? Literary or elsewise? That's what Rome did (and I'm not talking about Cicero or writers of similar esteem). So yes, nobody wrote quite as much as Rome and thus that is the perspective many have... ugh and bleh

[Pontius Pilate]

although you might have the right intention at heart, this is still untrue- EB tolerates quite a high degree of skepticism, criticism and anachronism, nonetheless spam for the sake of spam and troll-feeding... sometimes Foot or other moderators might need to put a stop to such for the sake of the community (thank the Heavens), but it is hardly any infringement on free speech / thought or police state implied by the all or nothing mentioned. The high degree of posts NOT deleted and threads NOT locked when they should be (such as this one), besides threads only locked much later, all illustrate what I say concerning censorship. We all know how out of control the 'mob' is when it comes to trollspamination [yes, a new word I invented just now ~;)], so let us not discuss why censorship and moderators exist on the internet in the first place...

PS - Persian Cataphract, you only mention Scandinavia because you have lived there ~;) it is hardly so interolerant or Romanocentric to get special mention...

PPS - Rome never conquered Germany, nor Persia, besides others. Winning battles (forays against tangible armies) is hardly 'conquest'. Being uncontested at times along their borders maybe-so. Napoleon won IN Russia, yet did not conquer it.

*- Here's the philosophical question of the day: should a culture be highly valued for its historical spam? Literary or elsewise? That's what Rome did (and I'm not talking about Cicero or writers of similar esteem). So yes, nobody wrote quite as much as Rome and thus that is the perspective many have... ugh and bleh

I don't understand the meaning of your post.:thumbsdown: Why should this thread be closed, we are talking about history and the impact of civilizations on history. I hardly call what Rome did and what writings it left behind spam. Okay, Rome may have not conquered all of Germania and Persia, but it did conquer:
* Gaul
* Spain
* entire Italian Penisula
* Greece
* most of eastern europe
* the levant
* southern Britain
* north africa
* and controlled the entire mediteranean region
* won many battles in Germania and Persia

So I don't know what you're trying to say about Rome when you say it didn't conquer Germania and Persia, completely. You surely aren't undermining the Romans as conquerers?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Would grafitti on the walls of Pompei qualify as 'spam'?
Would the fact that Latin is itself derived from a language whose native speakers likely hailed from Armenia count for anything?
Would the fact that these speakers were to participate in what eventually became known as the first International System count for anything?
What would the fact that a Roman once remarked that Greece conquered its conquerors make?
What does it say that Romans sought to participate in such cults as Eleusinian mysteries?
What does it say that Christianity itself is based on a series of ancient and all non-Roman precedents?
Where does the very ritual of hand-shaking come from?
What does it mean that Rome itself likely developped into a city only after Etruscans and Greeks from Magna Graecia showed them the way?
Yes indeed: what does it actually mean that most if not all 5 'good emperors' were not from Rome?

It does not mean Rome did not influence the world, it does however beg to differ from the view that Rome was not *at least equally* influenced by that very same world.

[Ibrahim]

@TPC: you forgot al-Hira. now that was a pretty place.:yes::yes:

[Pontius Pilate]

Would grafitti on the walls of Pompei qualify as 'spam'?
Would the fact that Latin is itself derived from a language whose native speakers likely hailed from Armenia count for anything?
Would the fact that these speakers were to participate in what eventually became known as the first International System count for anything?
What would the fact that a Roman once remarked that Greece conquered its conquerors make?
What does it say that Romans sought to participate in such cults as Eleusinian mysteries?
What does it say that Christianity itself is based on a series of ancient and all non-Roman precedents?
Where does the very ritual of hand-shaking come from?
What does it mean that Rome itself likely developped into a city only after Etruscans and Greeks from Magna Graecia showed them the way?
Yes indeed: what does it actually mean that most if not all 5 'good emperors' were not from Rome?

It does not mean Rome did not influence the world, it does however beg to differ from the view that Rome was not *at least equally* influenced by that very same world.


Good point. Rome was very much influenced by the Greeks, Etruscans, and some other Italic tribes, you could also argue that they were influenced by the Trojans, or so the myth goes. But then the Romans went on to influence our world. Which is my point. It is sort of like a cycle but I see where you're trying to get at.


Now about Armenia. Why does everyone keep bringing up the point of the Romans originated from Armenia, thus Armenia has more impact on the world, and without Armenia there would be no Rome, or something similar to that line? Okay, let us say that the Romans and all Indo-Europeans originated from present day Armenia. So what. The whole human race as a species originated from Africa, then it spread out into the rest of the world. With that said, one could make the argument that without Africa there would be no Armenia, or even people in general. So you see, to say that Rome or Indo-Europeans hold some kind of debt to Armenia is foolish, because in that case Armenia has a debt to Africa.

Once again I have to stress that there is nothing wrong with Armenia, I am sure it is a wonderful country, but that is not the point.

[||Lz3||]

did you ever saw a cartoon in wich, by traveling to the past, someone kills a small insignificant fly...and then when he returns he finds his world completely diferent?

[Zeibek]

Just to add my worthless two cents:

Nothing has any intrinsic value, nothing. When it comes to something as subjective as "what we find interesting" finding any justification is totally pointless, we simply have to accept the fact that we have different opinions and can't do anything about it. And even if one viewpoint is supported by the majority it makes no difference because reality simply isn't consensus. The cultural collective in which we live in influences these values and might even define them to a certain point, but it's important that we dont't become solipsistic and actually believe them to be true.

So just stop this pety debate that amounts to intellectual masturbation at best, no nation is more worthy of representation than another, the best choice is to choose factions where their culture can be expressed accurately, and Armenia fills that criterion.

Feel free to flame if you find this post annoying.

[Tellos Athenaios]

to make an entire voicemod for just one faction, especially so small and relatively insignificant (please don't flame me, after all, the Armenians weren't as pivotal as Seleukids, Romans, Parthians, Greeks, etc) .

Those bold underlined bits, that was 'The Point (tm)'. Or perhaps the controversy which ensued. However, bear with me just a little longer: I have not seen anyone saying "Romans are descendant of Armenians" or anthing so much as implying this. All we have seen is the (widely accepted) thesis that Latin is a derivative of a speculative Indo-European language of which its first natively speaker most likely hailed from what is known as Armenia. The Hittites are only one such people, but seems on a relative solid basis that they are the result of a migration from Armenia.

This says little about the Romans except their language is derived from an Armenian language; if someone therefore argues that the Romans were so influential by virtue of the widespread loan words from and existance of derivative languages today, he must a fortiori conclude that Armenians of long, long ago have been (especially in this regard) equally influential if not more (because this Indo-European language also similarly influenced Iranian and Germanic languages among others such as Sanskrit).

Ergo that argument merely serves to show the logical fallacy of the assumption that because of Latin's influence the importance of Romans can be shown. It cannot. For all that it matters, I think the Latin influences in our language are more a product of Medieval Latin, which was not even Roman Latin to begin with: Erasmus complained for some reason. :wink:

The only other argument I heard was that the Romans conquered such an vast amount of area. And spread its culture. Truth is likely closer to the idea that this culture spreading worked both ways, and at any rate much of the 'Imperial' (or indeed all) Roman culture was borrowed from other cultures to begin with. You may want to compare the effect of (ancient and continuous) policies of Chinese authorities to style the cultures of their realm towards Han precedent. Yet: it is Qin script and Chu food the Chinese are famous for.

Conquering a vast amount of area is a similar argument to that of the language thing. It is true the Romans conquered a vast amount of people, but it is dwarfed in the face of what some Chinese dynasties have conquered. Or compare the territory the Khans subjugated.

[Gleemonex]

So you see, to say that Rome or Indo-Europeans hold some kind of debt to Armenia is foolish, because in that case Armenia has a debt to Africa.

Pray tell what makes that foolish.

-Glee

[artavazd]

OK this thread is becoming a "Rome is better than Armenia and vis versa"

Originaly I made a comment to a post which said that Armenia is insignificant. I put up a couple of links, and put the names of contemporary scholars who have done much work in the area of Ancient Armenian history. I never said Rome is not significant.

Also people are confusing the Indo-European Homland being in the area of Armenia, with the notion that Romans derivied their language from Armenian. Armenian just like all IE languages is derived from Proto-IE although it is just a single offshoot from the Mother Tounge (which to me is fascinating)
To put it shortly the IE tribes who did not migrate out of the area of Armenia, became the Armenians.

Again I will admit that until recently there was not much work being done on Ancient Armenian history. Armenia as an independent nation did not exist since 1375. Most of it was under Turkish rule, and the eastern part was Under Soviet rule. It wasnt until 1991 when the eastern part gained independence from the Soviet Union that the circumstances favored scholarly work on Armenia. I believe in about 5-8 years there would be much more information available on Ancient Armenian history.


I will be honest I am not well aquainted with the Out of Africa theory, but I have also heard of a nother theory which states that Humans developed separatly in diffrent places.

[Pontius Pilate]

Pray tell what makes that foolish.

-Glee


The whole point of the argument is that some people think without Armenia there would be no Rome, because Romans originated from that part of the world( or some people say). thus they think Armenian influence is greater than Roman and is responsible for everything Rome did. But if that's the way you want to think about the situation, then you could also say that without Africa there would be no Armenia (because the human race originated from Africa). If you want to think like that you could then say that Africa is responsible for everything Armenia did. And I don't think many people would argree with that. Capice?

[Pontius Pilate]

I will be honest I am not well aquainted with the Out of Africa theory, but I have also heard of a nother theory which states that Humans developed separatly in diffrent places.

I am pretty sure that the Out of Africa theory is the one accepted by the majority of the scientific community today. The other widely accepted theory is the Bible's explaination.

[Gleemonex]

So just stop this pety debate that amounts to intellectual masturbation at best, no nation is more worthy of representation than another, the best choice is to choose factions where their culture can be expressed accurately, and Armenia fills that criterion.

Feel free to flame if you find this post annoying.

On the contrary -- well said!

-Glee

[Pontius Pilate]

Just to add my worthless two cents:

Nothing has any intrinsic value, nothing. When it comes to something as subjective as "what we find interesting" finding any justification is totally pointless, we simply have to accept the fact that we have different opinions and can't do anything about it. And even if one viewpoint is supported by the majority it makes no difference because reality simply isn't consensus. The cultural collective in which we live in influences these values and might even define them to a certain point, but it's important that we dont't become solipsistic and actually believe them to be true.

So just stop this pety debate that amounts to intellectual masturbation at best, no nation is more worthy of representation than another, the best choice is to choose factions where their culture can be expressed accurately, and Armenia fills that criterion.

Feel free to flame if you find this post annoying.


I see you are trying to stay neutral here and to say that this is all pointless. Which is all fine with me, but then at the very end, you start praising the greatness of Armenia. So I hardly call you neutral and your post was fine until you contradicted yourself at the end.:thumbsdown:

[artavazd]

I am pretty sure that the Out of Africa theory is the one accepted by the majority of the scientific community today. The other widely accepted theory is the Bible's explaination.



http://www.kulturama.ch/Graphiken/homohabilis.jpg


You think thats what we came from?:inquisitive:


a human being and a banana have 50% of the same genes so is a banana our ancestor as well?

Im not trying to be an ass, I dont know theres just alot of unanswered questions which science can not answer.

[Zeibek]

I see you are trying to stay neutral here and to say that this is all pointless. Which is all fine with me, but then at the very end, you start praising the greatness of Armenia. So I hardly call you neutral and your post was fine until you contradicted yourself at the end.:thumbsdown:

Umm...


the best choice is to choose factions where their culture can be expressed accurately, and Armenia fills that criterion.

At least in my opinion that doesn't amount to praise really. Try replacing Armenia with Rome.


the best choice is to choose factions where their culture can be expressed accurately, and Rome fills that criterion.

Equally true isn't it?

[desert]

In b4 theological debate.

[Pontius Pilate]

http://www.kulturama.ch/Graphiken/homohabilis.jpg


You think thats what we came from?:inquisitive:


a human being and a banana have 50% of the same genes so is a banana our ancestor as well?

Im not trying to be an ass, I dont know theres just alot of unanswered questions which science can not answer.


:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Don't even get me started on this one. Yes I admit, science does not know the answers to all the questions. But just because we don't know something doesn't me we should just make up an explanation to fill in the dots! There has been so much evidence discovered in recent years to prove that humans did evolve from apes. Come on people, open up your minds here. So you think some imaginary person in space, who was bored one day decided to put us on this earth? Then to have us all worship him or else be damned for eternity? Please tell me you are not one of those religious fanatics.

[Pontius Pilate]

Umm...



At least in my opinion that doesn't amount to praise really. Try replacing Armenia with Rome.



Equally true isn't it?



Yes, but remember you said Armenia, not Rome originally. If you want to avoid mistakes like this just say both next time I guess.

[Zeibek]

Yes, but remember you said Armenia, not Rome originally. If you want to avoid mistakes like this just say both next time I guess.

Well, I said that factions that could be historically accurately portrayed should be present, Rome should be a no-brainer on that one and since people were talking about the insignificance of Armenia I thought that I'd have to mention it separately in order to get the message through. Apparently yeah I'll have to mention everything in the future in order to prevent people from going on with their arguments.

[Foot]

http://www.kulturama.ch/Graphiken/homohabilis.jpg


You think thats what we came from?:inquisitive:


a human being and a banana have 50% of the same genes so is a banana our ancestor as well?

Im not trying to be an ass, I dont know theres just alot of unanswered questions which science can not answer.

Wow, well done my friend, you've managed to misrepresent a sound science and close a thread in just one post. :2thumbsup:

Locked.

Foot