View Full Version : Impressions of the Patch
vexatious
11-06-2002, 04:39
So far, I've found MP to be bit more unstable than it was before.
Dionysus9
11-06-2002, 04:40
That is truly vexatious.
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Bacchus
----
In the end times, there shall be rumors of a patch-- but none shall come. And there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth across the lands. And the frustrated masses shall search high and low for the patch. And still no patch shall come. And the poor suckers will start eating their children out of frustrated desperation. And yet-- no patch shall come. And then, finally, some small glimmer of hope shall appear. And a "patch" shall be released. But, alas, all shall be as before the patch. Thus, look not for a patch in those last days-- for it is a trick of the Dark Ones. Verily, I say unto you-- the end of days shall be dark and horrible.
Papa Bear!
11-06-2002, 04:41
har har har,
really though, even more unstable, thats not good.
Richard the Slayer
11-06-2002, 04:42
Quote Originally posted by Papa Bear!:
har har har,
really though, even more unstable, thats not good.
[/QUOTE]
I am terrified at downloading this contraption now.
vexatious
11-06-2002, 04:51
Let me emphasize-only a bit(though an actual fix would have been better). Here's how I see it:
CA has maintained, all along, that the problems with the patch are not related to GS. That, I say, is BS ;-) If I run a traceroute on www.gamespy.com, (http://www.gamespy.com,) I find that I routinely time out at the GS server. Many of the server disconnect problems that I've had in the past are undoubtedly related to this timeout issue. What happens is that the connection times out and then retries. Of course, a retry doesn't get you very far in a realtime strategy game. More importantly, I suspect that you get disconnected if your connection fails for a certain amount of time. So far tonight, I have been dropped 3 times. Before the patch, I could expect about 1 drop for every 3 or 4 games. Tonight, that ratio has been 1 to 1.
Before the patch, I could host but not join (Ive posted in the tech forum on this tonight), the same is true after the patch--no joining.
All this being said, the initial connection to GS appears to be faster than it was before the patch. Also, none of these comments speak to the SP game, which appears to have been the beneficiary of most of the fixes.
I hope that this, more detailed response proves to be a bit less vexing.
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Subject or Object?
Papa Bear!
11-06-2002, 04:51
I've had it for a while but I haven't installed it.
Until I get some announcement saying that its all I've ever dreamed of, (from an official source), I'll just let it rot on my computer.
Plus I'm hearing ppl have problems with it across the board, and its just so hard to know how to handle things without official input. (as in, without an announcement that says, "the patch is out, it affects only new games in single player", or whatever, who knows?)
Basically I'm gonna use these moments of confusion to remain miffed at the poor introduction of the patch. (plus I can't really play right now anyway)
Dionysus9
11-06-2002, 04:53
Indeed, Vex, it is in fact more vexatious.
If the problem is really with GS server, then why would the patch make things worse?
Now we are faced with dual problems-- GS timeout issues and increased sensitivity of MTW to timeout issues caused by the new patch.
Will it ever end?
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Bacchus
----
In the end times, there shall be rumors of a patch-- but none shall come. And there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth across the lands. And the frustrated masses shall search high and low for the patch. And still no patch shall come. And the poor suckers will start eating their children out of frustrated desperation. And yet-- no patch shall come. And then, finally, some small glimmer of hope shall appear. And a "patch" shall be released. But, alas, all shall be as before the patch. Thus, look not for a patch in those last days-- for it is a trick of the Dark Ones. Verily, I say unto you-- the end of days shall be dark and horrible.
--Oracle of Dionysus, Ch.3, vs. 23-28.
vexatious
11-06-2002, 04:54
sorry, correction, the above post should read that "CA has maintained that the problem with 'Multiplayer' IS NOT RELATED TO GS", not that "the problem with the 'patch'is not related to GS"
vexatious
11-06-2002, 04:58
Dion,
I would try to answer that except that I would be forced to speculate (even more than I already have). I can only describe my experience--and that is that the game appears to be less stable (albeit using a very small sample). It is not, however, inconceivable that any of the myriad changes might have caused/increased the frequency new/of existing problems.
vexatious
11-06-2002, 05:15
A suggestion. Try not using GS? Would it be possible to do that? Is doing so cost prohibitive? I know nothing of the technological issues involved, my apologies to the Devs if this is way out of line.
Papa Bear!
11-06-2002, 05:22
well if a feature was added so that we could search for ips and do private hosting, that'd be helpful.
Dionysus9
11-06-2002, 05:44
We went around and around with them on that very point Papa, before release. They said "no no no no no". It has to do with Activisions agreement with Gamespy, I'm sure.
We used to have a lot of problems with the EA server in STW. Eventually, after almost 2 years of problems and various pleas for an IP option, someone finally cracked their code and developed a Pirate server program which would allow IP hosting.
So what does Activision/CA do? They promptly change the format for establishing a server connection so we have to go through another 2 years of research to produce our own IP games.
Its like dealing with the friggin government.
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Bacchus
----
In the end times, there shall be rumors of a patch-- but none shall come. And there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth across the lands. And the frustrated masses shall search high and low for the patch. And still no patch shall come. And the poor suckers will start eating their children out of frustrated desperation. And yet-- no patch shall come. And then, finally, some small glimmer of hope shall appear. And a "patch" shall be released. But, alas, all shall be as before the patch. Thus, look not for a patch in those last days-- for it is a trick of the Dark Ones. Verily, I say unto you-- the end of days shall be dark and horrible.
--Oracle of Dionysus, Ch.3, vs. 23-28.
My impressions of the patch (multiplayer only at this time):
1) Foyer refresh is fixed. Much nicer.
2) Player list did not refresh properly. I was talking with Wolf_MagyarKhan...and there was only one W player in the list (Warrior74). This appears to be a new, introduced bug, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
3) Game list refresh: still problems. People were hosting, others could see their games (this proves no firewall) but I could not. Seems to be no improvement
4) I hosted a game and got a message that the Gamestate went out of synch. Two people dropped, but the game allowed us to continue, even though we couldn't actually start the battle.
5) Two players with same faction works. This is a nice feature, I like this.
6) Games in progress or full do not show in the list of games. I HATE this feature with a passion.
It seems to me that for every problem the patch fixed in MP, it introduced one more. A bit of a disappointment so far.
I will post again when I have played around some more.
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It's getting warm in here...that must be one hell of an INFERNO!
vexatious
11-06-2002, 06:00
I'm gonna try to reinstall the game and reinstall the patch. Who knows? Crazier things have happened.
The only one that comes to mind is making thousands of avid gamers wait months for a patch that only corrects a handful of defects.
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Subject or Object?
I should have noted these also:
Initial connection to Gamespy was faster.
Disconnecting was faster.
New font is...different. Not better, not worse.
Different colour text in the chat window for room chat, game chat, game ally chat is nice.
#kick command is great (used it already!)
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Leaving that aside, vex is right. Tracerouting Gamespy is damn slow, and pinging it was also pretty bad (700 ms on average for me, and I'm on Cable) Whether this is the problem or not, I can't say. But there is still problems with online play in MTW.
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It's getting warm in here...that must be one hell of an INFERNO!
looks there is a future for an MTW version of the STW fakeserve, if that was released, then we could really know the 'truth' of the matter...
and anyway - what is the game like over LAN anybody? surely knowing that would help to assess where the problem is...
1dread1lahll
11-06-2002, 06:13
Its crap........everygame i get a message saying that other people have taken more florens than they should have, still get disconnected still takes forever to load, still get log on errors........
LittleGrizzly
11-06-2002, 06:20
Quote Originally posted by Whitey:
looks there is a future for an MTW version of the STW fakeserve, if that was released, then we could really know the 'truth' of the matter...
and anyway - what is the game like over LAN anybody? surely knowing that would help to assess where the problem is...[/QUOTE]
whitey i did try with friend other day ...... we did only have 1 cd though http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
MagyarKhans Cham
11-06-2002, 06:20
lets just hope it isnt our last patch...
vexatious,
I'm in Boston as you are, and I haven't gotten any timeouts with MTW in 5 hours of continuous online gameplay. I have ATT Broadband for my ISP. I did a clean install of MTW and then applied the patch.
it seems like those with clean installs have had much better results...
its also a shame about the campaign games, that we have to start again. But its a lot better than nothing.
Dionysus9
11-06-2002, 09:50
Hmmm... clean install and no problems?
Readme didnt say anything about clean install, did it?
vexatious
11-06-2002, 10:08
I did a clean install and patch and got disconnected after each game. I, too, have ATT Broadband. Puzz, is there any way for me to reach you?
Well, for all that is worth, my old replays are now *even more messed up* than they were before. With v1.0 the problems would occur when the reinforcements were about to hit the stage, but now even the initial troop positioning is incorrect...... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
And my replay menu is full of something that has some strange symbols instead of a name, and is classified as "normalsave". I haven't made any new massive replays to see whether they work or not, however. Or whatever......
*sigh*
[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 11-06-2002).]
Papa Bear!
11-06-2002, 10:21
Quote Originally posted by Inferno:
I should have noted these also:
Initial connection to Gamespy was faster.
Disconnecting was faster.
New font is...different. Not better, not worse.
Different colour text in the chat window for room chat, game chat, game ally chat is nice.
#kick command is great (used it already!)
[/QUOTE]
Just thought I'd add, I connected to gamespy this morning, and it was ligtening fast, (compared to its original speeds), the same was true for logging off.
I did this without installing the patch, (I still haven't), so I suspect that the speedier connection to gamespy may be due to changes by gamespy or something. As I said, I'm patchless, and I noticed this huge difference today, (the difference was large enough that I'm fairly certain something had to be changed, it seems unlikely that it was coincedental)
Papa Bear!
11-06-2002, 10:25
with the exception of saved games, whats the difference between a new install and an install that is a few months/weeks old?
None as I can figure it. I must think that this is only conjecture, perhaps poorly considered.
In some games, when there have been multiple patches, going from a clean install can help. (as you're updating without the bugs of the previous patches)
But in the case of MTW, the only significance I see in a new install is no previous saved games, (which seem to not be functional with the patch), but how can they affect MP?
Well that's true. You wouldn't need a clean install unless you had been changing files which I had done.
vexatious
11-06-2002, 10:58
PUZZ, HOW CAN I REACH YOU?????
Dionysus9
11-06-2002, 11:06
More on the new "You have been disconnected from the server" bug:
Ok, it doesnt happen every time but so far it has happened 75% of the time. A game gets over: Victory to the Attackers. Then we go back to the lobby and it says "You have been disconnected from the server" with the little parchment and red seal for me to click on.
But for some strange reason, I can still talk to the lobby...I cant hit "continue" to get back to the lobby from the results screen, but I can send messages to the players. I can't continue playing though, until I click on the red parchment seal. Then I get disconned and end up having to relog.
With faster relogs this is not as big a problem, but still quite annoying.
Anyone else had this?
Dionysus9,
I haven't seen that.
vexatious,
Catch me online.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
Eddie the Longshanks
11-06-2002, 12:28
so i installed the patch, started several new games, one of them as spain and i defeated the almohads and when they re-appeared, they did so with (and these numbers are 100% accurate, i doubled checked) 80 knights of santiago, 160 teutonic knights, 400 teutonic sergeants, and loads of akmohad urban militia..forgetting the militia, arent these guys in some order that swore to DESTROY muslim countries?? i guess after i defeated the last muslim country they feared they might be out of a job, so they decided to help out the muslims!
[This message has been edited by Eddie the Longshanks (edited 11-06-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Eddie the Longshanks (edited 11-06-2002).]
vexatious
11-06-2002, 12:36
Dion-
That is exactly my problem. After every game. Arrrrgh!
It wasnt happening just now-probably because there were only 30 or so ppl online. We really need to find a fix to this problem. Any ideas?
vexatious
11-06-2002, 21:09
Well, today marks the beginning of Patch Day 2. Let's hope that things improve tonight.
ToranagaSama
11-06-2002, 22:21
Quote Originally posted by vexatious:
Let me emphasize-only a bit(though an actual fix would have been better). Here's how I see it:
CA has maintained, all along, that the problems with the patch are not related to GS. That, I say, is BS ;-) If I run a traceroute on www.gamespy.com, (http://www.gamespy.com,) I find that I routinely time out at the GS server. Many of the server disconnect problems that I've had in the past are undoubtedly related to this timeout issue. What happens is that the connection times out and then retries. Of course, a retry doesn't get you very far in a realtime strategy game. More importantly, I suspect that you get disconnected if your connection fails for a certain amount of time. So far tonight, I have been dropped 3 times. Before the patch, I could expect about 1 drop for every 3 or 4 games. Tonight, that ratio has been 1 to 1.
Before the patch, I could host but not join (Ive posted in the tech forum on this tonight), the same is true after the patch--no joining.
All this being said, the initial connection to GS appears to be faster than it was before the patch. Also, none of these comments speak to the SP game, which appears to have been the beneficiary of most of the fixes.
I hope that this, more detailed response proves to be a bit less vexing.
[/QUOTE]
Just thinking, if you going to do an accurrate traceroute, then shouldn't it be to the actual server that's disconnecting you. I doubt the main web page is on the server hosting MTW. Might help a bit to ping the actual server.
Next, could it be your "Packet" size? Maybe try the searching the net for tweaks for your connection and operating system.
vexatious,
You're sure you have no viruses right? If you bring up the task manager with CRL-ALT-DEL, you should be able to account for all the processes you see there. Also, try traceroute to other places to see if the timeouts could be machine or internet connection related. When you host have someone tell you your ping which is usually around 200 or better if both have a cable connection.
ElmarkOFear
11-07-2002, 01:41
I am having the same problems. It is not Vex's machine. The game is more unstable, it discconects you from server after almost every game as well. The player list does not refresh, and many games cannot be seen that people are hosting.
ravenking
11-07-2002, 01:45
ok, y'all seem to have gotten it to work just fine. Maybe I am doing something wrong. I have not been able to play for a month now, ever since I upgraded to Win XP. I get a CTD whenever I 1) load a savegame, 2) start a new campaingn, or 3) try to start a custom battle or multiplayer. In other words, the game does not work, period. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling the game and the patch, no good. There are no hardware problems because the game ran fine in Win ME and 2000. I thought this stuff was fixed?
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"You there, knight!" "Yes, sir?" "We just lost that battle. Why did you order your men to charge that unit of enemy sergeants?" "Uh, I was impetuous, sir" "'IMPETUOUS!? Impetuous!? Men! Kill him, I want his head!"
vexatious
11-07-2002, 01:57
dion and elmark, i have posted in the tech formum on this. OF COURSE, NO ONE HAS ANSWERED. And people ask why we post technical questions in here.
I have the same problem as Bach, Vex and Elmo http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif uhm, rather http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif though I don't have to relog. I arrive to the internet games/chatrooms menu. (though I was dropped from the next game; perhaps it would have been better to relog http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif )
BTW, the coat of arms are mixed up in the battle report.
Dionysus9
11-07-2002, 02:12
This is a repost of a comment I made in another thread, but it is even more appropriate here:
Below I state my opinion, its just my opinion based on my experience with the patch. I am having the same stability problems as before with no real improvement, and in fact it has gotten slightly worse:
1) Bizarre numbers by some players names in the lobby are still present (although this is purely cosmetic, it is annoying and suggests deeper problems);
2) Crash to desktop after approx 3 or 4 hosts still present for me. This was my major concern with v1.0 and it hasn't been improved. I'm still crashing to desktop approx 25% of the time I host a game--what gives?;
3) "Disconnected from Server" message appears after 50-75% of games, at the results screen. I can still talk to the lobby but cant move from the results screen until I click the red seal on the parchment, which then actually drop me from the server. With quick relog time and the ability to talk to the lobby after games, this is also just a minor inconvenience (also speaks to deeper problems though).
4) In game stability seems to be the same or possibly slightly less stable. I got numerous "game state diverged" messages and related drops. But with the new non-routing allies this causes lost games, see below.
5) Big Problem: Now that dropped players dont rout, when they drop before deployment it locks the entire game up and you have to ESC back to the lobby. Since most drops occur prior to deployment this is a serious issue and has resulted in several fouled games (games that we would have been able to continue under v.1.0.). As it stands now, if a single player drops before deployment, all 7 remaining players must go back to the lobby (sometimes getting disconned, see above), host a new game (sometimes getting dropped to desktop, see above), choose armies, and then try again (only to find another pre-deployment drop). Again, this is a serious, serious problem--albeit with an easy fix. If a player drops before deployment his troops should either auto-deploy or rout (no penalties to incur).
6) This is not a bug, per se, but just a new annoyance: Now that dropped armies don't rout (which is a good feature, dont get me wrong, but needs some fine tuning) it is impossible to tell if the player is still present in the game or if he has dropped. Several times last night I was screaming at my ally to help, only to realize he wasnt even there. F1 doesnt reveal he had dropped, and it seemed like he dropped without a message to the game (I could have missed it in the heat of battle). Anyway, this is frustrating not to know if your ally is there or not. We need some kind of mark by their F1 name to tell us they have dropped.
7) Another small problem with implementation of non-rout for dropped allies (not a bug, but an unintended problem, I think)--With players dropping left and right when they begin to lose, the battlefield gets cluttered with stationary units facing everywhich way. When the victors destroy the last remaining player, all "stationary reserve" units should rout. But they dont, the dropped players' units still stand around and the victor has to go around and clean them up. This can get incredibly tedious if there are two or more dropped players, if there are any Hashashin in the dropped army, and furthermore it unrealisticly inflates the number of kills that go to the victor. After all active players have been defeated, the non-active armies should immediately rout.
8) "Invisibile games" may still be present (unconfirmed), as many people were unable to see games that were indeed up. This may be due to the fact v1.1 games are invisible to v1.0 players...too early to say.
9) Still seems to be some problems with greyed out names of players who are in fact in the lobby.
All of that being said ther are a few marked improvements:
1) Log on/off time greatly improved. Pre-patch results suggest a change in gamespy itself and that improved speed is not patch related;
2) #kick,#ban, much needed thank you.
3) Color/Faction distinction works great, looks great, and was much needed, again thanks.
4) Private chat to room chat bug fixed, thanks.
5) Room count, nice touch.
6) Announcment of games being hosted and by whom-- nice.
Also some changes which I am neutral on:
1) In game chat now scrolls from the bottom of left side instead of up the left side. This is annoying at first, but I suspect I will get used to it.
2) Dropped players dont rout-- this is causing numerous problems (see above), but the feature itself is a good idea if implementation is improved (pre-deployment drops result in rout; game requires an active enemy player to continue). A step in the right direction, but not a big enough step.
3) Y/T chat to allies/all. Ok, this is annoying at first because I'm so used to hitting T. I can see the value in it once I retrain my fingers. But sometimes I want to say something and I havent decided if I want to send to allies or to all until I am done typing. Now I have to think before I type, so I seem to talk less because I am busy playing. Good? Bad? I'm neutral on it.
4) Deployed allies cant see enemy deployment. I think this might end up being an improvement. It certainly changes the dynamic of deployment. I don't know how I feel about this yet-- neutral.
5) Balancing-- seems like everything is more expensive. Given the tendency to play at 10k (which is higher than officially advised), these cost increases seem to work nicely. Way too early to say for sure. I've notice that armor for ranged troops (at least normal arbs) seems far less expensive (this is an impression, I havent actually looked at the cost difference). With 3 affordable armor upgrades my arbs will stand and fight cav for much longer. Good? I dunno yet. Different.
OVERALL--
MP stability has slightly decreased for me. No improvement on desktop crashes, no improvement in staying in sync (possibly worse, too early to say), now I have this "disconned" bug when I return to the lobby from a completed game (minor annoyance). The Big Problem is the fact that pre-deployment dropped players can never deploye and so everyone has to Esc from the game. If it wasnt for the Big Problem, I would say the new improvements ameliorate the new (minor) problem of getting disconned after a game. Once the implementation of the non-rout drop feature is improved we might have a patch I can be happy about. If we could top the desktop crashes I would actually cheer.
Anyway, nice work on the improvements. Good luck on the remaining problems and new issues. A lot remains to be done.
Bacchus
(I will spare you the bitter signature)
I'm running Win98se and get back to the foyer after a game without crashing or dissconnecting. Vex, Elm, Cheetah and Dionysus9 are not by any chance all running WinXP are you?
Dionysus9
11-07-2002, 02:33
Nope, I'm running Windows ME.
At least it waits until the game is over to disconn me, so, as I said it is a minor inconvenience.
i like the patch overall, it does seem i'v traded 1 evil for another though with the insane amount of ingame drops, rather than crashing to desktop in spurts every hour or so.
i also had a problem for a few hours of losing my connection after hosting games...but since logging in and out is now fast, it wasnt that big a deal.
heavy cav seems to dominate and is cheaper...i was using good old alans when i saw cbr butcher my 2 valour 2 spear units with a valour 1 lancer unit head on. its now cheap as hell to upgrade ranged, and seemed to be the same for hybrids as well.
as a whole i like it better now, i'v already seen much more elite cav being used and more ranged.
man are chiv sgts expensive now http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
vexatious
11-07-2002, 21:37
I am running XP.
Also, when I get "disconnected from the server", I lose my broadband connection and have to fully reboot.
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