Nobel Judge says Americans caint write no good

[Strike For The South]

Meh Elitism (http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/09/30/nobel.literature.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview)

I consider this man a bigot.

[Banquo's Ghost]

It's not elitism - the man is simply not sufficiently well-read. :beam:

[gaelic cowboy]

We call a person like that a plank as in thick as two short planks. US is a vast melting pot of differing culture how can he seriously believe there are no good US writers.

He is taking the last few years of no nobel prizes for american writers and proclaiming that this proves americans cant write good books. If someone wins next year does that mean the entire culture of US changed overnight cos of him.

I think he should be burned at the stake using every Tom Clancy novel ever published :idea2:

[Fragony]

Absolute rubbish America is packed with great writers.

[Ser Clegane]

Perhaps the thread title should be changed from "Europeans say..." to (clueless) "European says"

What an ignorant fool - such a statement puts a stain on the prize as such :no:

[Ironside]

The correct title would be "Europeans say Americans cant write well"´:smug:

I see that you have gotten aquainted with Horace Engdahl. ~;p

[KukriKhan]

(I took the liberty of making the topic title more specific, while trying to retain SFTS' ironic intent. ~Kukri)

Bigot? Maybe. More likely though, he's so busy poring through the stuff he's given to judge that he has little time for recreational reading, so misses some real gems out there - including American ones.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The correct title would be "Europeans say Americans cant write well"´:smug:

I see that you have gotten aquainted with Horace Engdahl. ~;p

"can't"

"acquainted"

:sweatdrop:

[Tribesman]

The correct title would be "Europeans say Americans cant write well"´
No , the correct title would be " a Swedish bloke talking bollox"

[HoreTore]

Colour, honour.....

And anyway, this just proves how superior we norwegians are to the barbaric swedes. I say we loot and enslave them, I need some new furniture when I'm moving to a new apartment...

[Ironside]

"can't"

"acquainted"

:sweatdrop:

That's what you get when being a smartass while being to tired to spell correctly. ~;p
Cant was from STFS though.


(I took the liberty of making the topic title more specific, while trying to retain SFTS' ironic intent. ~Kukri)

Bigot? Maybe. More likely though, he's so busy poring through the stuff he's given to judge that he has little time for recreational reading, so misses some real gems out there - including American ones.

If I understood him correctly (with this interview and a correction he made) it's more of an observation on why the Noble Price has ended up mostly in Europe or to writers connected to Europe in the last years. And yes he's very elitistic and arrogant.

Edit: Horetore, the Peace prize commitée. Need I say more?

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think it is obvious Americans are ethnically inferior at writing.

[Martok]

I think it is obvious Americans are ethnically inferior at writing.
Indeed; it's a complex. At the very least, I know my recurring nightmare of Dickens and Dumas laughing in my face cause *me* to wake up screaming....

[Tristuskhan]

My dear friends, I must warn you, since at least two of you got it wrong, Doris Lessing is a woman!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Meh, too many Europeans let themselves be blinded by American popular culture. And hence overlook that there is genuine quality and sophistication in American literature, culture, the arts and public debate.

Making this up as I'm writing, could it be that the worst of American culture is globally exported and consumed, while from smaller countries only the best of its culture is exported? If you think Houellebecq, Édith Piaf, Amélie Poulain and Derrida are representative of French culture, you're in for a shock.
From France, this is what is exported, and not Tecktonik. While from America, for every Springsteen ten Snoop Doggy Dogs cross the ocean.


However, Engdahl is right on several accounts:
American literature really is too sensitive to trends. Engdahl didn't need to add 'to trends of American mass culture'. The constant urge to cater to trends of American High culture is as tiresome and uncreative.
American readers are too reluctant to read translated work. (And to see dubbed or subtitled movies) :smash:



My dear friends, I must warn you, since at least two of you got it wrong, Doris Lessing is a woman!The picture is of Dorris Lessing. But the quotes are from Horace Engdahl, a man.

This proves the Frecnh caint read no good and




I think he should be burned at the stake using every Tom Clancy novel ever published :idea2:
I say shoot all green politicians and then recycle them on a compost heap of there choosing.A man of drastic measures is a man of my liking. :sweatdrop:

[Viking]

I think he should be burned at the stake using every Tom Clancy novel ever published :idea2:

There is, undeniably, a bit or irony in that post... :beam:

[Louis VI the Fat]

There is, undeniably, a bit or irony in that post... :beam:What irony? He's proposing burning Engdahl with the works of the greatest American author who isn't dead or past the age of seventy.


:sneaky:

[Tristuskhan]

This proves the Frecnh caint read no good and


:wall: today's lesson: when coming back from a hard day's work, first have tea and then, post.

[Kadagar_AV]

From the article


Speaking generally about American literature, however, he said U.S. writers are "too sensitive to trends in their own mass culture," dragging down the quality of their work.

"The U.S. is too isolated, too insular.


I can't say he is wrong...

Note that he also said:
Of course there is powerful literature in all big cultures

I guess his point is that there of course are quaklity litterature written in the US, BUT you could be better if you had a broader perspective.

:sweden:

[Fragony]

litterature=

I can only hope that was intentional :laugh4:

[Viking]

What irony? He's proposing burning Engdahl with the works of the greatest American author who isn't dead or past the age of seventy.


:sneaky:

Oh, yeah. I often use to burn books of my favourite author when it gets cold in the winter; that's the ultimate respect I can show him. :beam:

[Don Corleone]

Edit: oops, would appear others have already made a couple of grammatical points.

I cannot disagree with the judge, we are overly insular. The French, who have their own literature and their own movies and television, know far more of American culture than we of theirs. Heck, they probably know more of our culture than we do of our own.

Seriously, even European blockbuster films, like "My Life as a Dog", "Faraway, So Close" "The Girl on the Bridge" and "La Reine Margot" are relatively obscure arthouse films over here.

But I also think that in some ways, being insular might improve your literature, as you'd be more focused and sharper on constructs that play to your own culture well such as wit, humor and sarcasm, which don't translate well.

And I also believe the judge only said it to be a elitist git.

[Fragony]

I cannot disagree with the judge, we are overly insular. The French, who have their own literature and their own movies and television, know far more of American culture than we of theirs.

Oh, no. Really they don't, most frenchies are amazed there is such a thing as a world beyond France. They are probably more american then the americans stereotype-technically speaking. Americans shouldn't be so insecure about all that, it's quite telling that all the top universities are in the US. The constant bickering or outright battles between scholars in magazines, not here. We made all that up, America is the intellectual battlefield :yes:

edit, you might want to keep an eye on us cloggies, we are better in english then the english hehe

[Husar]

I can only hope that was intentional :laugh4:

You overlooked the


quaklity

right in front of what you quoted. ~;)

[Koga No Goshi]

Oh, no. Really they don't, most frenchies are amazed there is such a thing as a world beyond France. They are probably more american then the americans stereotype-technically speaking. Americans shouldn't be so insecure about all that, it's quite telling that all the top universities are in the US. The constant bickering or outright battles between scholars in magazines, not here. We made all that up, America is the intellectual battlefield :yes:

edit, you might want to keep an eye on us cloggies, we are better in english then the english hehe

In a world of terrorism, hijackings, hurricanes, foreign policy debacles and collapsing economies...

there stands, alone, one foreigner unapologetically in complete awe of all things Status Quoian American.

That man is Fragony.

[Fragony]

In a world of terrorism, hijackings, hurricanes, foreign policy debacles and collapsing economies...

there stands, alone, one foreigner unapologetically in complete awe of all things Status Quoian American.

That man is Fragony.

Yep. I consider America to be the hight of civilization. Such a huge country with so little internal turmoil, and the most gentle superpower that ever was. It has the right idea and the right spirit, if you want to feel bad about yourselve ask why a black man can actually run for president. Do you really think that would be possible in an european country? You would be way off if you do.

Oh, and kill them, build dikes, carry on, you'll be fine.

[Kadagar_AV]

Fragony, nope, it was an error...

However, I speak 3 languages fluidly and I can bluff me through 3 more...

How many languages do you speak? English is in fact my third language, I am more fluid in german and swedish.

Before you judge peoples spelling, make sure it doesnt make you look stupid. Fair enough?

Husar, my fingers are sometimes to big for the keyboard:)

What is the point of pointing out spelling errors anyway?

Or, do you claim that my argument is less valid cause my English is not perfect? If so, I invite you to further the conversation in a language I am more fluid in... Det borde väl inte vara några problem, eller hur?

:gah:

[Koga No Goshi]

Yep. I consider America to be the hight of civilization. Such a huge country with so little internal turmoil, and the most gentle superpower that ever was. It has the right idea and the right spirit, if you want to feel bad about yourselve ask why a black man can actually run for president. Do you really think that would be possible in an european country? You would be way off if you do.

Oh, and kill them, build dikes, carry on, you'll be fine.

On the macro level, if you think America has done a great job in the world, and could have been a hell of a lot worse, that's your perogative.

In most other regards, though, I think someone who doesn't live here, doesn't worry that a sudden illness is going to absolutely wreck a lifetime of "responsibility" and "saving", doesn't worry that their kid will wind up in a horrible, ghetto public school if they can't afford an expensive, nice-enough house in an expensive, nice-enough neighborhood, and basically just doesn't have the experience of life in America as an American, having nothing but wholehearted admiration for all things America does and opposes change or criticism of anything America does, is engaging in idle fanboyism in important issues issues (to us) when, as others have stated, you have no real skin in the game.

Completely off topic. My apologies to OP.

[Strike For The South]

On the macro level, if you think America has done a great job in the world, and could have been a hell of a lot worse, that's your perogative.

In most other regards, though, I think someone who doesn't live here, doesn't worry that a sudden illness is going to absolutely wreck a lifetime of "responsibility" and "saving", doesn't worry that their kid will wind up in a horrible, ghetto public school if they can't afford an expensive, nice-enough house in an expensive, nice-enough neighborhood, and basically just doesn't have the experience of life in America as an American, having nothing but wholehearted admiration for all things America does and opposes change or criticism of anything America does, is engaging in idle fanboyism in important issues issues (to us) when, as others have stated, you have no real skin in the game.

Completely off topic. My apologies to OP.

China
India
USA
Indonesia
Brazil

These countries are the top 5 in something:beam:

[Fragony]

Fragony, nope, it was an error...

However, I speak 3 languages fluidly and I can bluff me through 3 more...

How many languages do you speak? English is in fact my third language, I am more fluid in german and swedish.

Before you judge peoples spelling, make sure it doesnt make you look stupid. Fair enough?

Husar, my fingers are sometimes to big for the keyboard:)

What is the point of pointing out spelling errors anyway?

Or, do you claim that my argument is less valid cause my English is not perfect? If so, I invite you to further the conversation in a language I am more fluid in... Det borde väl inte vara några problem, eller hur?

:gah:

Didn't mean any harm, sorry if it appeared that way. That really wasn't my intention.

@Koga No Goshi

It is no different here. Are you starving? Many are, these people that don't live 'here'. I find it quite distastefull to consider our problems to be problems. It's like searching for the highest building you can find and demanding another floor.

[Louis VI the Fat]

In a world of terrorism, hijackings, hurricanes, foreign policy debacles and collapsing economies...

there stands, alone, one foreigner unapologetically in complete awe of all things Status Quoian American.

That man is Fragony. Ah, but then, that man is Europe's greatest philosopher. Fragony is quite correct about both America and France in this thread. :yes:



today's lesson: when coming back from a hard day's work, first have tea and then, post. Me I always make sure to down two bottles of wine before posting here. :barrel:

[yesdachi]

From the article: ...he said U.S. writers are "too sensitive to trends in their own mass culture," dragging down the quality of their work.
In response (not defense) I would say not every piece of published work is intended to contend for the Nobel Prize in literature. I would add that most writers are looking to fill their pockets with cash and “trends in our own mass culture” are popular and lucrative to write about. I have heard of many writers who sling keys for a living having to take time off to write their novel. Trendy, pop culture sells and most of us have pills to pay. :beam:

I have also noticed that guys with butch, feminist wives don’t have much control at home and often belittle people at work to make themselves feel important. BTW did I mention that Horace has a butch, feminist wife?

[Kadagar_AV]

Fragony, fair enough:)



:focus:

This may just be my perspective... But I think this is what the article is about.

If a swede writes a book about, say, the end of the world... It might very well be a swede as the main character, however, the setting wouldnt take place only in Sweden, the character would travel the world in his pursuit.

In american litterature, the setting will most of the time take place in the US, and the US alone.

Now, this example is extremly general, and counter-claims can be made from both points.

But, as a rule, american litterature is very centered around the US, where European litterature is more international.

Am I wrong?

[Kadagar_AV]

In response (not defense) I would say not every piece of published work is intended to contend for the Nobel Prize in literature. I would add that most writers are looking to fill their pockets with cash and “trends in our own mass culture” are popular and lucrative to write about. I have heard of many writers who sling keys for a living having to take time off to write their novel. Trendy, pop culture sells and most of us have pills to pay. :beam:

I have also noticed that guys with butch, feminist wives don’t have much control at home and often belittle people at work to make themselves feel important. BTW did I mention that Horace has a butch, feminist wife?

Eventhough I do not agree with you, I feel an urge to applaud your post...
*and the thing about his butch feminist wife is oh so true, I had to endure a 3 hour seminar with her at university.... Afterwards I was unsure if I should cut off my balls or just shoot her*

[Strike For The South]

Fragony, fair enough:)



:focus:

This may just be my perspective... But I think this is what the article is about.

If a swede writes a book about, say, the end of the world... It might very well be a swede as the main character, however, the setting wouldnt take place only in Sweden, the character would travel the world in his pursuit.

In american litterature, the setting will most of the time take place in the US, and the US alone.

Now, this example is extremly general, and counter-claims can be made from both points.

But, as a rule, american litterature is very centered around the US, where European litterature is more international.

Am I wrong?

America is a very very very large country. With about 30 times the population of Sweden. There is a reason we seem so insular. We are trying to find out as much as we can about our other countrymen first!

[Fragony]

But, as a rule, american litterature is very centered around the US, where European litterature is more international.

Am I wrong?

It is huge, I don't know if you have ever been there but I can't really blame americans for being america-minded, it takes me 2 hours to travel from the south of the netherlands to the north, how can you compare that? International is our reality.

[Don Corleone]

I'd also interject that to me, Europeans seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. You formed the European Union, claiming you're one united people. Then you claim you're international because you travel from Geneva to Munich. 450KM!!! You can do that and not even leave the state in several U.S. states.

All of that being said, I think America's awareness of the rest of the world is growing. It just takes time.

[Kadagar_AV]

Fragony, I've been to the US two times:)

I now it is huge... But that does not explain why "the end of the world" and "the end of the US" is the same thing in much of the literature.


Don Corleone, first of all, the cultural difference is huge within Europa... I am not saying you dont have cultural difference in US too, heck, I have been to New York and then Mississippi... Still, there was the same language, same food chains, same TV-shows and so on...

Geographical distance and cultural distance is not the same thing... you know...

And as a sidenote, who said European literature is bound to Europe only? Africa, Asia and so on hasa huge impact on our literature.

[Tristuskhan]

All of that being said, I think America's awareness of the rest of the world is growing. It just takes time.

Maybe, but that has nothing to do with the quality of your litterature. US has way much better storytellers than today's France, and that's all that matters.

[Strike For The South]

Fragony, I've been to the US two times:)

I now it is huge... But that does not explain why "the end of the world" and "the end of the US" is the same thing in much of the literature.


Don Corleone, first of all, the cultural difference is huge within Europa... I am not saying you dont have cultural difference in US too, heck, I have been to New York and then Mississippi... Still, there was the same language, same food chains, same TV-shows and so on...

Geographical distance and cultural distance is not the same thing... you know...

And as a sidenote, who said European literature is bound to Europe only? Africa, Asia and so on hasa huge impact on our literature.

There is a huge difference in the culture of the 2 cities Ive lived in and there in the same state! I even made a thread about it!

[yesdachi]

There is a huge difference in the culture of the 2 cities Ive lived in and there in the same state! I even made a thread about it!

But that was based on food and not literature. ~D

[Strike For The South]

But that was based on food and not literature. ~D

Good sir at the end of the day is there a difference?

[Louis VI the Fat]

But that was based on food and not literature.
Good sir at the end of the day is there a difference?My padawan has completed his education.

I can teach him no more. http://matousmileys.free.fr/tr12.gif

I shall now leave this forum and die a happy man.

[Fragony]

I now it is huge... But that does not explain why "the end of the world" and "the end of the US" is the same thing in much of the literature.

It's death to the idea of a new start I think. America is child of our sick history and a really succesful one, in a way it is world of it's own, even when it isn't I don't blame people for liking the idea. It isn't even an idea I think it is very much real, see Obama.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Well, from the looks of him the problem is plain to see...
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/horace.jpg

Horace needs regular enemas to alleviate that backup in his system.

[Papewaio]

litterature

I think what Fragony was pointing out is that looks more like a play on words then a spelling mistake.

It looks like the word literature combined with litter.

Which aptly describes most of the backroom IMDHO. :2thumbsup::laugh4:

[Strike For The South]

My padawan has completed his education.

I can teach him no more. http://matousmileys.free.fr/tr12.gif

I shall now leave this forum and die a happy man.

A montage to SFTS and Louie (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=KWTL3t827Os)

[Tribesman]

it takes me 2 hours to travel from the south of the netherlands to the north, how can you compare that?
Well for comparison everyone is moaning that the new road "improvements" mean that it can take 2 hours to drive from Tuam to Galway , but hey thats Ireland and we don't do much of that literature thing in a Nobel sense :2thumbsup:

[Koga No Goshi]

Well for comparison everyone is moaning that the new road "improvements" mean that it can take 2 hours to drive from Tuam to Galway , but hey thats Ireland and we don't do much of that literature thing in a Nobel sense :2thumbsup:

But you gave us a ripped off version of Dracula that changed the world. :)

[Adrian II]

Bigot? Maybe.Make that imbecile. And definitely.

Buy the way, Horace who?

I think it's about :daisy: time that this bunch of :daisy: conceited :daisy: grant their useless, overblown prize to Philip Roth before they dig their own mass grave, jump into it and politely ask the rest of the reading world to bury them alive and forget this bunch of morons ever existed. And that's putting it diplomatically.

[Ironside]

Make that imbecile. And definitely.

Buy the way, Horace who?

I think it's about :daisy: time that this bunch of :daisy: conceited :daisy: grant their useless, overblown prize to Philip Roth before they dig their own mass grave, jump into it and politely ask the rest of the reading world to bury them alive and forget this bunch of morons ever existed. And that's putting it diplomatically.

But, but that would break the rule of giving the Nobel Price to a writer none heard of, written books none red and coming from the middle of nowhere. :smash:

[HoreTore]

Edit: Horetore, the Peace prize commitée. Need I say more?

What about them? The last one went to a yank! :beam:

[Louis VI the Fat]

:france: France wins Again! :france:


Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2008/): author of new departures, poetic adventure and sensual ecstasy, explorer of a humanity beyond and below the reigning civilization.




https://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2894/clezioji1.jpg




French sophistication and refinement beats American pulp again! :knight:

I take back everything I said about the Nobel comittee in this thread and I applaud them for their literary insight and as your literary overlords we promise to rule firm but just and blahblah.

[InsaneApache]

He looks as though he sat on something wet and warm. :book:

[KukriKhan]

He has astoundingly dark hair for a 68-year old. It must be that French diet. :)

I read he did a short stint in the US as a teacher in the 60's. I wonder where?

-edit-
LOL, Louis

-edit 2-
Found it here (http://kirjasto.sci.fi/leclezio.htm)

Le procès-verbal was soon translated into several languages, among others into Finnish. In spite of his international fame, Le Clézio chose to stay away from fashionable literary circles, saying in an article in 1965: "Not yet sure if writing is a good way of expression." He taught at a Buddhist University in Thailand in 1966-67, at the University of Mexico, and at the Boston University, University of Texas, Austin, and the University of New Mexico, Albuquerque. Since 1973 Le Clézio has divided his life between France, the U.S. and Mauritius. He has also traveled in Nigeria and Japan and published translations of Mayan sacred texts.

Is UT-Austin where our STFS attends? If so, the irony literally drips.

[Strike For The South]

https://img79.imageshack.us/img79/2738/tulg7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

I go to Texas Tech. Highest rate of STDs, Teen Pregnancies, Dropouts, Drunkards and white trash in the state. Im in the right place:2thumbsup:

[Adrian II]

I go to Texas Tech. Highest rate of STDs, Teen Pregnancies, Dropouts, Drunkards and white trash in the state. Im in the right place:2thumbsup:You should write a book about it.


P.S. Jean-Marie who? :coffeenews:

[Strike For The South]

You should write a book about it.


P.S. Jean-Marie who? :coffeenews:

I should. Then I can be like my Dutch hero!

[Yoyoma1910]

Not only did a Frenchman win the Nobel prize, but a Frenchman who lives right across the Rio Grande from the U.S.:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:



Nobel prize winner. (http://www.france24.com/en/20081009-french-writer-le-clezio-wins-2008-nobel-prize-literature&navi=MONDE)

[Adrian II]

I should. Then I can be like my Dutch hero!The one who stuck his finger in a dyke? :beatnik2:

[Strike For The South]

The one who stuck his finger in a dyke? :beatnik2:

hehehehehheehehehehehe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dike_(construction))