Israel admits the withdrawal from the territories gained in the Six-Day War

[Jolt]

There is a new hope for peace in the Middle East. The proposal was born in Israel and has not yet been disclosed, but SIC had access to what is being discussed between Israelis and Palestinians. The faces of this dialogue are Tzipi Livni (which will pass to lead the Israeli government after the resignation of Ehud Olmert) and Palestinian leader Abu Ala.



Israel has to withdraw from all territories conquered in the Six-Day War in 1967, including the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. Only then will it reach peace treaties with Palestinians and Syrians.

This proposal has not yet unveiled goes even further than is supposed in Palestine and Israel: It means the Israeli withdrawal from almost all West Bank while retaining control over only a small part of the land to allow the permanence of the main Jewish settlements.

Israel proposes to cede four areas of territory near the Gaza Strip (an area where 1.5 million people live in 350 km2); territories in the Negev desert (south of Hebron in the West Bank), the area next to Jenin (in northern West Bank) and a link between the West Bank and Gaza, the area of Hebron.

In the latter case it would be 40 km of road in the sovereign Israeli territory, but without military control of Israel. The policial control would be Palestinian and Palestinians could travel freely without encountering Israeli soldiers.

Jerusalem and refugees

As for Jerusalem, the city would be the unified capital of two states. The formula is similar to discussion in the peace negotiations in Camp David (U.S.) in 2000 and at Taba in 2001.

The Palestinian neighborhoods in the capital would be reverted to the Palestinian state and the Jewish neighborhoods would remain in the Israeli side.

In most sacred square kilometer on the planet, - the Old City of Jerusalem, shall not fall under neither sovereignty. Israel control the Western Wall and Jewish neighborhoods.

The Palestinian authorities would monitor the Temple Mount and the mosques.

As for refugees, it is estimated that there were four million worldwide, refugees from the wars of 1948 and 1967, including descendants who were born abroad.

Anyone who wants to stay in the country of residence would be compensated; anyone who wishes to return to the future Palestinian state can do so. Israel would only allow the return of about 10 thousand people.

The Palestinians insist that Israel must assume moral responsibility, but the economical solution would be borne by the international community.

Jewish settlements

As for Jewish settlements, Israel will launch a plan for the evacuation of 70 to 80 thousand settlers living in more remote areas of the West Bank and offers about 250 thousand euros per family to abandon their homes and return to the desert of Negev or the Galilee. Anyone who wishes to return to the center of the country receives a lower compensation of about 200 thousand euros.

The Palestinians hope that in Israel forms a new government capable of giving an answer and in any case, the future treaty of peace would have to be sanctioned by both parts. Not only of both peoples but also Hamas and Fatah, which will be the trial of fire in case the plan goes forward.

Source: Israeli correspondent of Portuguese TV channel, SIC, Henrique Cymerman
http://sic.aeiou.pt/online/noticias/mundo/Proposta+israelita+implica+retirar+dos+territorios+conquistados+em+1967.htm
In Portuguese.

Comments? I too am surprised.

[Tristuskhan]

Seems good news, but what about Hebron, and will PM Livni be able to create a majority at the Knesseth with such audacious moves?

[Fragony]

Good, will put the continuing palestinian attacks on Israeli's after the withdrawal into perspective. Isn't going to stop you know, it will be seen as a victory and it will kick into higher gear.

[Vladimir]

What the hell is this? How are we going to bring about the end times if Israel gives up all this land? All those decades of preparing my bunker, all for nothing.

:shame:

[CountArach]

I remain very sceptical, and there are parts there I disagree with (Such as the "evacuation" of Palestinians...), but ultimately if this is what will bring peace then I hope it works.

[Kadagar_AV]

This wont happen...

Anyone like to make a bet?

[Ironside]

Good, will put the continuing palestinian attacks on Israeli's after the withdrawal into perspective. Isn't going to stop you know, it will be seen as a victory and it will kick into higher gear.

That continuation would also erode any international support (read money) for the Palestinians... :juggle:

I'll doubt it will be successful, although it would be a pleasant surprise in fixing that hotbed if it worked. :2thumbsup:

[Sarmatian]

I, too, doubt that this will work, but A for effort. If it fails this time, maybe it won't next time...

[ShadesPanther]

That continuation would also erode any international support (read money) for the Palestinians... :juggle:

It didn't affect international support when they moved into gaza when the israelis left and used it as a rocket pad.

Withdrawing from areas is fine but it needs to be understood that noone will tolerate any attacks on each other.

[naut]

Sceptical to say the least.

Edit: That title's quite a handful.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Because land for peace worked so well in Gaza...

CR

[Gurkhal]

I hope they manage to bring this one ashore and that it i'll be kept. As for Palestinians I hope that PLO (for all their corruption if what I've heard is true) will manage to keep things easy and that Hamas will not sabotauge their deal, although I'm sure they will try. Should anyone start shooting rockets into Israel I fully understand them with all they've had to put up with from the Israelies, but I will also have an equal understanding for Israel in going in and reversing everything back to the start.

Only time will tell, and lets hope that there is some will to make peace, even if they can't have everything as they want. Both inside and outside of Israel.


It didn't affect international support when they moved into gaza when the israelis left and used it as a rocket pad.

Ever heard about that blockade of Gaze that was, or is still, going on? They got punished pretty harshly if I recall.

[Fragony]

That continuation would also erode any international support (read money) for the Palestinians... :juggle:

Sure. Do you really think such an most important symbol for just about all parties is going to dissapear, it is the propaganda-battlefield there will never be peace, there are too many people that need it to be a war.

[Kralizec]

I hope they'll go through with this and see how it turns out. If Hamas starts to advertise this as a defeat for Israel any hope for lasting peace will be off the table indefinitely, as far as I'm concerned.

[Ironside]

Sure. Do you really think such an most important symbol for just about all parties is going to dissapear, it is the propaganda-battlefield there will never be peace, there are too many people that need it to be a war.

No there's likely being serious settler provocation, while Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad etc (with Syrian-Iranian backing) are planning to have some accedental suecide bombing to mess this up.

Thing is that a successful deal would give the initiative to the parties that wants or prefer peace and unless tey give that up it won't take long until the warmongerers on both sides will start to weaken and fade away unless they change.

[Kanamori]

So, why's Israel doing this? Has anyone been keeping up on Palestinian and Israeli politics lately?

[Tribesman]

It didn't affect international support when they moved into gaza when the israelis left and used it as a rocket pad.

Look at the nature of the Gaza pullout and its remaining status and you will see why .


Because land for peace worked so well in Gaza...

Gaza wasn't a land for peace deal was it , it was a unilateral tactical decision based mainly on financial and operational concerns .


So, why's Israel doing this? Has anyone been keeping up on Palestinian and Israeli politics lately?
Because it has to , it cannot afford the occupation anymore , Lebanon showed that the IDF is no longer what it was , there is increasing violence against the state by its own citizens which is weakening the power base that calls for retention(and even expansion) of the territories .
If you look at the outlined pan it is pretty much along the lines of the Geneva accords which are supported by the military and the majority of Israelis and Palestinians .
The question remains though will it be enough to secure peace and normalise realtions with nations that want the deal to go back to 48 instead of 67 ? Plus of course if the very low limit proposed for right of return will be acceptable (though it doesn't seem to even start with the problem of the IDPs)

[PanzerJaeger]

Because it has to , it cannot afford the occupation anymore , Lebanon showed that the IDF is no longer what it was ,

Are you suggesting the IDF cannot retain control of these areas? The Lebanon situation was treated with kid gloves and was certainly not reflective of the full strength of the IDF.

Just like your claims a year or so ago about the US military based off of Iraq, I think you're jumping to conclusions..

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That continuation would also erode any international support (read money) for the Palestinians... :juggle:


Good.

https://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5494/gunsgyw4.jpg

[JAG]

If all that is true and Israel are prepared to give up that much land abd ground, then I have a new respect for their pursuit of peace. These moves have always been the biggest stumbling block - getting Israe lto give the terroitory it gained after '67 up. There will still be big hurdles - the Refugee return problem is still a big one I would imagine - but still, positive to say the least.

[seireikhaan]

Admittingly, I haven't been paying as much attention in the last few months to the situation for these two, but if this happens as Isreal claims(which I'm a tad skeptical of, to say the least), and they do a complete pull out, then we give Hamas two possible decisions- accept it, continue with peace talks, and the whole world breaths a sight of relief. Or, he can try to use it as momentum to try and crush Isreal. He will meet a most sorry fate if he chooses the latter, and not necessarily from the Israelis.

[Kadagar_AV]

Oh come on... It is the never-ending-war...

Idiots on both sides, fanatical zealots on both sides.

One of the sides, if not both, will ..................... it up, not before long.

I bet ten to one that this will not be the end of war in this sector... anyone care to make a bet against me?

[seireikhaan]

Oh come on... It is the never-ending-war...

Idiots on both sides, fanatical zealots on both sides.

One of the sides, if not both, will ..................... it up, not before long.

I bet ten to one that this will not be the end of war in this sector... anyone care to make a bet against me?
Kad. Who are you arguing against? I'm a bit confused. I've yet to see anyone who said, "Ohemgee, peace at last!" like you seem to be insinuating. If you actually read posts, nearly everyone has inserted the rather important word IF. IF. So please, address to whom your argument is directed, its the second time you've gone off, and I'm frankly not sure why.

[HoreTore]

On a related note, has anyone else noticed the increased jewish terrorism in Israel? Settlers attacking their surroundings, gunning down people, the leader of Israel for peace being bombed, etc, all happening these last weeks...

[Incongruous]

Depends on what constitutes Israel tbh, I mean just one look at the reality of the West Bank will indicate that that is now Israel, with a few prison like areas for those inferior Palestinians. But meh, the Israelis can always just go and bomb their learning centers and smear crap all over their schools.

This is a start, but Israel can only ever be acceptable if they return to their UN reconised borders completley, accept moral and economic responsability and then allow some of their leaders to be sent to the ICC and accept judgements of ethnic cleansing and mass urder.

The isue of refugees also needs to be dealt with properly i.e more Palestinians need to be given their land back and if not recieve recompense. Jerusalem should remaiun an international city.

[Strike For The South]

Depends on what constitutes Israel tbh, I mean just one look at the reality of the West Bank will indicate that that is now Israel, with a few prison like areas for those inferior Palestinians. But meh, the Israelis can always just go and bomb their learning centers and smear crap all over their schools.

This is a start, but Israel can only ever be acceptable if they return to their UN reconised borders completley, accept moral and economic responsability and then allow some of their leaders to be sent to the ICC and accept judgements of ethnic cleansing and mass urder.

The isue of refugees also needs to be dealt with properly i.e more Palestinians need to be given their land back and if not recieve recompense. Jerusalem should remaiun an international city.

Ah yes those peace loving Palestinians. How dare Israel hurt these people. Im far from being Pro-Israeli but to sit and accuse one side of ethnic cleansing and mass murder is only half the story.I dont see why we waste our time and money but don't sit here and tell me the Palestinians were pushed into this position

[Incongruous]

Are you actually serious?
They were not pushed? Perhaps brutally run out of their land is a better way to put it Strike. I suggest you do some reading on the topic bfore posting things like that.

here you go, just to give you some perspective.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Oh and to show what great mates the Israelis and Americans are...
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ul-ameu.html

[Strike For The South]

Are you actually serious?
They were not pushed? Perhaps brutally run out of their land is a better way to put it Strike. I suggest you do some reading on the topic bfore posting things like that.

here you go, just to give you some perspective.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

If we want to blame anyone it should be the Brits for handling the situation the wrong way. The Palestinians rejected numerous resolutions to start a state, they would not even work with the jews. Thank for the heavy dose of European elitism and nifty bar graphs but they do nothing for anyone now. Simply because they lived in peace for a little while has no bearing on today or the peoples mindset there. The Palestinians want the Jew gone of their land The Israelis save a few crazies would probably work with the Palestinians to reach a consensus. I dont like some of there methods or there crassness but the Israelis do what they need to, to survive. If I was beset on all sides by people who wanted me and my family dead I would be doing the exact same thing.

[Tribesman]

Are you suggesting the IDF cannot retain control of these areas?
Yes , because it takes too much money , troops and resources with absoltely no beneficial return .

The Lebanon situation was treated with kid gloves and was certainly not reflective of the full strength of the IDF.

Errrr...by that I take it you mean that they didn't use nukes:dizzy2:


Just like your claims a year or so ago about the US military based off of Iraq ,I think you're jumping to conclusions..
When the leaders of your military say it is stretched to near breaking point and the outgoing commander in Iraq say the military cannot win it sorta suggests that you are the one jumping to conclusions and not paying attention ....then again you have been completly wrong on just about every aspect of Iraq since day 1 so that isn't surprising at all .:yes:


This is a start, but Israel can only ever be acceptable if they return to their UN reconised borders completley,
Slight problem there Bopa , which borders are you talking of ? Israel has never existed within recognised borders .

[Tribesman]

If I was beset on all sides by people who wanted me and my family dead I would be doing the exact same thing.

Wheras if I was beset on all sides by people who wanted me and my family dead I would get my family out straight away and then seriously consider if I should try and stay on .

[Strike For The South]

Wheras if I was beset on all sides by people who wanted me and my family dead I would get my family out straight away and then seriously consider if I should try and stay on .

Well they were kind of between a rock and a hard place ya know.

[Incongruous]

If we want to blame anyone it should be the Brits for handling the situation the wrong way. The Palestinians rejected numerous resolutions to start a state, they would not even work with the jews. Thank for the heavy dose of European elitism and nifty bar graphs but they do nothing for anyone now. Simply because they lived in peace for a little while has no bearing on today or the peoples mindset there. The Palestinians want the Jew gone of their land The Israelis save a few crazies would probably work with the Palestinians to reach a consensus. I dont like some of there methods or there crassness but the Israelis do what they need to, to survive. If I was beset on all sides by people who wanted me and my family dead I would be doing the exact same thing.

Haha! The Palestinians never tried?


Hmm, Palestinians want Israel gone, well yeah that may be some far off dream, to rid oneself of the racist thugs who rule over you, kind of like what Europe must have felt under the Nazis. But hey the Palestinians accepted long ago that Israel was there to stay and both Fatah and Hamas have said they agree with this. But I guess this wasn't reported in U.S (and even elitist Euro media) media.

@Tribes, I had thought that there were accepted U.N borders, but which Israel has never stuck to.

[Strike For The South]

Haha! The Palestinians never tried?
Jesus Christ Strike, you really don't know anything do you?
I suggest you do actually read something about Palestine, God there is just so much crap in that post I don't know where to begin. European elitism, yeah ok, you mean the facts? You just cannot accept it can you Strike? Crassness, you think that covers the sheer horror of what Israel has done and is doing to the Palestinians Strike?

Hmm, Palestinians want Israel gone, well yeah that may be some far off dream, to rid oneself of the racist thugs who rule over you kind of like what Europe mut have felt under the Nazis. But hey the Palestinians accepted long ago that Israel was there to stay and bith Fatah and Hamas have said they agree with this. But I guess this wsn't reported in U.S (and even elitist Euro media) media.

@Tribes, I had thought that there accepted U.N borders, but which Israel has never stuck to.

We can argue about the past all we want. About who snuffed who and whatnot but at the end of the day These people want to kill jews and there aren't many willing to compromise. The whole area should be thrown to the wolves. I hate the fact we pour so much money into the region but I will not sit here and judge the Israelis (or for that matter the Palestinians). for doing something I probably would do being put in the same position. There is no noble struggle on either side merely years of hate and grudge that gets perpetuated with every new generation and I want no part in it.

[Koga No Goshi]

Well they were kind of between a rock and a hard place ya know.

We can blame, or thank, the Brits for that one. Based on your perspective. Probably the single biggest foreign policy blunder in all of modern times. (Blunder excluding intentional horrific acts like the Holocaust itself, naturally.)


Hmm, Palestinians want Israel gone, well yeah that may be some far off dream, to rid oneself of the racist thugs who rule over you, kind of like what Europe must have felt under the Nazis. But hey the Palestinians accepted long ago that Israel was there to stay and both Fatah and Hamas have said they agree with this. But I guess this wasn't reported in U.S (and even elitist Euro media) media.

I don't think anyone is under the delusion Israel is ever going to be gone bye-bye or up and mass exodus out of the Middle East, unless aliens come and abduct them. Getting very frothed up over that is kind of a false position. Ask any Iranian citizen and none of them really believe Israel is ever going to be gone. The rest is smoke and rhetoric.

But, like others, I have my skepticism that Israel will ever pursue a true two state solution until "convinced" to do so by threat of divestment or the cutting of foreign and military aid until they do. And unlike others I do not think a slow genocide of Palestinians with no political solution seriously pursued is acceptable under the monstrous justification that "well if we give them an inch it will encourage them to be even more violent." That's Israel's line and somehow it has failed to make the situation better for half a century now.

[Strike For The South]

We can't apply Western methods here. We need to look at the situation from a different perspective

[Koga No Goshi]

We can't apply Western methods here. We need to look at the situation from a different perspective

I agree, I kind of gulp at how many white western fellas have "very strong" convictions or feelings about Israel-Palestine while not knowing any Israeli Jews, Palestinians or even Iranians. I gulp even more thinking about how many people don't have any direct perspective from those people themselves besides what western press chooses to cover about Hamas, or Akmedinijad. That is, seriously, like saying you know how all Americans are from watching Bush on TV on Al Jazeera. It's exactly the same thing, actually.

I had the good fortune to be around all three crowds in college, and get to know people from all three crowds. Solutions are possible and there is very little mass delusion about the basic facts of the situation. In fact, all three basically say they want the same thing! An independent, recognized, self-sufficient Palestinian state. That is the reason (rather than the anti-semitism or whatever other ridiculous argument gets thrown at anyone who criticizes Zionism) that I say the change here has to be on Israel's part, and that external pressure probably needs to make it happen.

[Strike For The South]

An independent Palestine would not bother me in the slightest

[Koga No Goshi]

An independent Palestine would not bother me in the slightest

I see it as the only real solution. The only argument against is is to play on emotion, like when the pro-Zionist supporters would have rallies and it would be like, pictures from the Holocaust and stuff. Or people saying that the Palestinians are just irrationally hateful and nothing will ever form them back into a coherent nation with more of a vested stake in life and too much to lose to go blow themselves up all the time. I don't see a slow holocaust of a nation of people an acceptable tradeoff to make up for the first holocaust.

[Tribesman]

Well they were kind of between a rock and a hard place ya know.

Were they ? Since the main problem is the occupied territories and people in those areas have chosen to place themselves there either out of religious fervour or simply because the cash incentives were so tempting , the main problem Israel has had with the occupied territories is that it doesn't have enough people there and cannot encourage enough people to move there(which is of course illegal anyway), it makes these settlers a serious financial drain on the rest of the population and increasingly stretches and divides the military(with conscripts refusing to serve in those territories and the settlers themselves increasingly attacking their "own" military and police) .
One other factor in this is simply population , Israel cannot get enough people to make Aliyah no matter how much money and incentives it offers them , one reason might be that who in their right mind would want to place themselves and family in a position that you describe as " beset on all sides by people who wanted me and my family dead " . Another factor in the population problem is the increasing numbers of people who make Aliyah who are not really doing it but simply going through the motions to get the Israeli passport to enable them to migrate elsewhere easier .


@Tribes, I had thought that there were accepted U.N borders, but which Israel has never stuck to.
Exactly , well almost exactly , Israel has never existed within the UN proposed borders and as such it cannot really " return to their UN reconised borders completley, " as you cannot return to something which never existed .

[Incongruous]

We can blame, or thank, the Brits for that one. Based on your perspective. Probably the single biggest foreign policy blunder in all of modern times. (Blunder excluding intentional horrific acts like the Holocaust itself, naturally.)



I don't think anyone is under the delusion Israel is ever going to be gone bye-bye or up and mass exodus out of the Middle East, unless aliens come and abduct them. Getting very frothed up over that is kind of a false position. Ask any Iranian citizen and none of them really believe Israel is ever going to be gone. The rest is smoke and rhetoric.

But, like others, I have my skepticism that Israel will ever pursue a true two state solution until "convinced" to do so by threat of divestment or the cutting of foreign and military aid until they do. And unlike others I do not think a slow genocide of Palestinians with no political solution seriously pursued is acceptable under the monstrous justification that "well if we give them an inch it will encourage them to be even more violent." That's Israel's line and somehow it has failed to make the situation better for half a century now.


I agree, I kind of gulp at how many white western fellas have "very strong" convictions or feelings about Israel-Palestine while not knowing any Israeli Jews, Palestinians or even Iranians.

You could aslo blame the U.S as well mate.

Haha, you dislike the way that people like me, a white person from Europe takes issue with the way the Palestinians are treated by Israel? Do you take issue with how South Africa treated it black population? You don't have to know an Israeli to understand what Israel does. I can't use the words needed to express my disgust at that comment.

We can all declare that we would love an independant Palestine, but what the heck would that be? Have any idea about how the Palestinians are going to actually rconstruct their economy?

The Germans were big enough to accept their part in the Holocaust, Israel needs to accept its part in mass murder and ethnic cleansing.

You are both spouting weak-kneed sentiments and skirting the issue of serious crimes against humanity.

[Strike For The South]

Were they ? Since the main problem is the occupied territories and people in those areas have chosen to place themselves there either out of religious fervour or simply because the cash incentives were so tempting , the main problem Israel has had with the occupied territories is that it doesn't have enough people there and cannot encourage enough people to move there(which is of course illegal anyway), it makes these settlers a serious financial drain on the rest of the population and increasingly stretches and divides the military(with conscripts refusing to serve in those territories and the settlers themselves increasingly attacking their "own" military and police) .
One other factor in this is simply population , Israel cannot get enough people to make Aliyah no matter how much money and incentives it offers them , one reason might be that who in their right mind would want to place themselves and family in a position that you describe as " beset on all sides by people who wanted me and my family dead " . Another factor in the population problem is the increasing numbers of people who make Aliyah who are not really doing it but simply going through the motions to get the Israeli passport to enable them to migrate elsewhere easier .


Exactly , well almost exactly , Israel has never existed within the UN proposed borders and as such it cannot really " return to their UN reconised borders completley, " as you cannot return to something which never existed .

I was talking about why many of them ended up there in the first place not the current lack of migration

[Strike For The South]

You could aslo blame the U.S as well mate.

Haha, you dislike the way that people like me, a white person from Europe takes issue with the way the Palestinians are treated by Israel? Do you take issue with how South Africa treated it black population? You don't have to know an Israeli to understand what Israel does. I can't use the words needed to express my disgust at that comment.

We can all declare that we would love an independant Palestine, but what the heck would that be? Have any idea about how the Palestinians are going to actually rconstruct their economy?

The Germans were big enough to accept their part in the Holocaust, Israel needs to accept its part in mass murder and ethnic cleansing.

You are both spouting weak-kneed sentiments and skirting the issue of serious crimes against humanity.


Well if you dont think an independent Palestine would work maybe they should put there arms down and work together under the same state. Neither side has there hands clean here. You exalt the same people who blow themselves up in malls. These people hate each-other and will continue to do so. We can at least agree on that.

[Incongruous]

No Strike, I take issue with people who like to skirt the issue of serious Israeli abuses of human rights and disgusting forms of discrimination against Palestinians. And just go on talking about peace (peace is good) but not reality.

It is not an issue of an old problem, it a constant and current problem becuase it still continues.

Like the cases of Palestinains women and children strip searched by Isreali security forces

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/etyt.html

This is actually rather sadistic to be honest.
It is not the worst by far, the worst would probably be forcing women to give birth at checkpoints and allowing their babies to die, or perhaps shooting an old woman in the head outsid a hostpital.

[Koga No Goshi]

You could aslo blame the U.S as well mate.

Haha, you dislike the way that people like me, a white person from Europe takes issue with the way the Palestinians are treated by Israel? Do you take issue with how South Africa treated it black population? You don't have to know an Israeli to understand what Israel does. I can't use the words needed to express my disgust at that comment.

We can all declare that we would love an independant Palestine, but what the heck would that be? Have any idea about how the Palestinians are going to actually rconstruct their economy?

The Germans were big enough to accept their part in the Holocaust, Israel needs to accept its part in mass murder and ethnic cleansing.

You are both spouting weak-kneed sentiments and skirting the issue of serious crimes against humanity.

How did you get that out of what I said? My comments about people having strong feelings even if they have no connection to the situation or don't know any people affected by it was in response to Strike saying we need non-western perspectives. If you re-read my posts I do not see how you can think I disagree with what you said. Unless you are proposing complete removal of Israel--- which, I would just say, isn't practical or pragmatic. I mean how do you remove a nuclear power short of nuking it? :)

P.S. I agree that Israel is guilty of large-scale human rights abuses that would get a VERY different reaction from the U.S. and the West in general if it were N. Korea, China or Iran doing it. As I said to a coworker the other day, "it amazes me, we give unilateral support to a regime which uses tanks we gave them to push through areas of bulldozed housing, and Americans ask in shock why there are people who hate America." I would be for total divestment as a threat to make Israel clean up some of its own mistakes.

[Incongruous]

I apologise, I was under the impression you disliked westerners getting angry about the situation in Palestine:shame:.

I'm thankful that you accept that Israel has commited crimes which cannot be over looked. I am also perplexed by your states continued support fo Israel, support which I beleives undercut the U.S.A's position in the region (along with many other issues)

[Tribesman]

I was talking about why many of them ended up there in the first place not the current lack of migration
And what has that got to do with it ?
This topic is about the current situation and current proposals .

Slightly off-topic but considering people are mentioning American aid to Israel .
Any thoughts on the Israeli reaction to the new US radar system they have been given as a present ?:inquisitive:
Surely they should be happy with the new technology and American troops they got ~;)

[Koga No Goshi]

I apologise, I was under the impression you disliked westerners getting angry about the situation in Palestine:shame:.

I'm thankful that you accept that Israel has commited crimes which cannot be over looked. I am also perplexed by your states continued support fo Israel, support which I beleives undercut the U.S.A's position in the region (along with many other issues)

No harm done at all Magyar, on the contrary it's good to see someone not write off and dismiss the suffering of other people just because it's our political and economic allies doing the inflicting. Way too many of us do that and then wonder why people hate the west.

[Incongruous]

I suppose it means that there will be no accdental reprisals to non-existant Iranian missiles, unless the Israeli government can threaten European and U.S troops with imprisonment?

[PanzerJaeger]

When the leaders of your military say it is stretched to near breaking point and the outgoing commander in Iraq say the military cannot win it sorta suggests that you are the one jumping to conclusions and not paying attention ....then again you have been completly wrong on just about every aspect of Iraq since day 1 so that isn't surprising at all .:yes:



IIRC, it was you who was claiming for several years that Iraq was a lost war and that the American military was this close to breaking. Well it wasn't and it didn't. ~:)




www.ifamericansknew.org

I knew that and I still support Israel. The body count has little bearing on which side is right or wrong, especially after Arafat rejected peace and instigated the Infatada.

[Tribesman]

IIRC, it was you who was claiming for several years that Iraq was a lost war and that the American military was this close to breaking. Well it wasn't and it didn't.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Iraq is a lost war Panzer .
Unless of course you think that when your generals are saying they can't win in Iraq it really means its a won war .:dizzy2:

[PanzerJaeger]

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Iraq is a lost war Panzer .
Unless of course you think that when your generals are saying they can't win in Iraq it really means its a won war .:dizzy2:

Who isn't paying attention?

[JR-]

Lebanon showed that the IDF is no longer what it was

i think you underestimate the IDF.

yes it got complacent and thus a nasty surpise in lebanon, but the IDF like the US Armed Forces are unparalleled learning machines.

the IDF will remain an unstoppable force in the ME.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Let's leave any discussions on Iraq to a different thread, please.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

[Tribesman]

Let's leave any discussions on Iraq to a different thread, please.

Oh come on Banquo , it appears someone has been listening to Joe six pack instead of the commanders of the US army:dizzy2:


i think you underestimate the IDF.


Not in the slightest , the problem was that the IDF underestimated the opposition.

but the IDF like the US Armed Forces are unparalleled learning machines.

You neglect the fact that other forces are able to learn too....the early destruction of Israels northern command complex hidden in a peaceful agricultural development absolutely stumped forward control and the whole planning stage with the result that troops were sent without sufficient support into areas they shouldn't have gone at all and the heavy support was sent into death traps where their effect was neutralised .

[Incongruous]

I knew that and I still support Israel. The body count has little bearing on which side is right or wrong, especially after Arafat rejected peace and instigated the Infatada.

What a write off,that is the most pathetic response I get from people who support what Israel is doing, did you bother to look at he rest of he sight Panzer? I guess not.

It is not the Palestinians who are attempting to ethnically cleanse and entire country, it is not the Palestinians who have illegally stolen land from the natives for sixty years Panzer. It is not the Palestinians who have the Israelis living in open prisons and subject them daily to brutal opression.

As for the Intifada:juggle2:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15502

http://www.jerusalemites.org/Intifada/first.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15441.htm

[Tribesman]

As for the Intifada
Still a contentious issue , the pro-Israrelis will say it was the Palestinians and the pro-Palestinians will say it was the Israelis.
But since Panzer doesn't like the fact that both sides rejected peace at that meeting he fits into that strange category of third reich and Isreal supporter and as such is very easy to ridicule .

[Koga No Goshi]

What a write off,that is the most pathetic response I get from people who support what Israel is doing, did you bother to look at he rest of he sight Panzer? I guess not.

It is not the Palestinians who are attempting to ethnically cleanse and entire country, it is not the Palestinians who have illegally stolen land from the natives for sixty years Panzer. It is not the Palestinians who have the Israelis living in open prisons and subject them daily to brutal opression.

As for the Intifada:juggle2:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15502

http://www.jerusalemites.org/Intifada/first.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15441.htm

Just some advice Bopa, they're not basing it on right or wrong or evidence. They're basing it on ideology. The U.S. government says Israel is good and our ally, just like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and so many other wonderful countries doing commendable things with our foreign aid and investments. Until the same neocons who got rich off selling these guys weapons or arranging military training and contracts with Israel came out and made a case for war against Israel, I don't think many of the thinkers like CR or Panzer would change their minds. And if that day ever came they would deny there had ever been any contradiction ;) (We've seen this exact same thing happen with Iraq.)

[Incongruous]

Still a contentious issue , the pro-Israrelis will say it was the Palestinians and the pro-Palestinians will say it was the Israelis.
But since Panzer doesn't like the fact that both sides rejected peace at that meeting he fits into that strange category of third reich and Isreal supporter and as such is very easy to ridicule .

Exactly.

[HoreTore]

[QUOTE=Koga No Goshi;2029246]I see it as the only real solution.[/QUO

[Hooahguy]

wow. well, i personally think the withdrawl is a bad idea, but i think livni will do it. itll be bad when hamas shoots rockets on us again, but maybe hamas will keep thier side of the deal.
btw bopa, your link are kinda invalid, since they are pro-palestinian sites, and the same goes for other pro-israeli sites. i have yet to find an unbiased news network.
and yes, Furunculu5 is right. compared to any arab state, the IDF is elite. the problem was fighting against guerillas, which is never winnable. so thats what went wrong.

[Incongruous]

wow. well, i personally think the withdrawl is a bad idea, but i think livni will do it. itll be bad when hamas shoots rockets on us again, but maybe hamas will keep thier side of the deal.
btw bopa, your link are kinda invalid, since they are pro-palestinian sites, and the same goes for other pro-israeli sites. i have yet to find an unbiased news network.
and yes, Furunculu5 is right. compared to any arab state, the IDF is elite. the problem was fighting against guerillas, which is never winnable. so thats what went wrong.

Which sites? The one with the graphs of Israeli vs. Palestinians deaths, Israeli only settlements?
Which ones? The Intifada links were to help give Panzer some well written perspectives on camp David, but I do not beleive any of them lied, I would be interested to know as well why you would call them pro-Palestinian, I mean apart from writing about Israeli crimes against humanity. Been reading CAMERA have we? Everyone is pro-Palestinian to those guys.

I would suggest you have a look a medialens for a decent scoop, or go have a read of John Pilger's or Robert Fisk's sites. Both are quite good, though poorly updated.

I would like to know, if the IDF is so amazingly powerful, how they never managed to stop the HAMAS freedom fighters? Surely with them caged up in Gaza it would be easy for such an amazingly powerful military machine. I am guessing that it is exactly the same reason my nation did so poorly in Basra and Helmand.

[Hooahguy]

kinda hard to kill the palestinian terrorists when they hide behind kids and women.

about the links, one of them is an arab site..... sorry that doesnt go for me. just as israeli sites wont go for me either, i cant belive it. btw i should have mentioned only that site. the others are, i think creidible....

[Koga No Goshi]

Which sites? The one with the graphs of Israeli vs. Palestinians deaths, Israeli only settlements?
Which ones? The Intifada links were to help give Panzer some well written perspectives on camp David, but I do not beleive any of them lied, I would be interested to know as well why you would call them pro-Palestinian, I mean apart from writing about Israeli crimes against humanity. Been reading CAMERA have we? Everyone is pro-Palestinian to those guys.

I would suggest you have a look a medialens for a decent scoop, or go have a read of John Pilger's or Robert Fisk's sites. Both are quite good, though poorly updated.

I would like to know, if the IDF is so amazingly powerful, how they never managed to stop the HAMAS freedom fighters? Surely with them caged up in Gaza it would be easy for such an amazingly powerful military machine. I am guessing that it is exactly the same reason my nation did so poorly in Basra and Helmand.

I don't see how an acknowledgment of human rights abuses, in photographs of kids being strapped to security vehicle windshields or corpses with 40 bullet wounds and no weapon, would be unreasonble regardless of what website said photos were pulled from. But, we live in an era of deregulated news and then dismiss everything as "coming from a biased source" if we don't want to hear it. No one doubts atrocities against the Israelis, because everyone covers those, but Palestinians not so much. I think (I may be speaking out of turn) that is what Bopa has been trying to bring to light.

[Hooahguy]

can you PM with some pics of "kids being strapped to security vehicle windshields or corpses with 40 bullet wounds and no weapon"? i kinda want to see them before i belive them.....

[Koga No Goshi]

can you PM with some pics of "kids being strapped to security vehicle windshields or corpses with 40 bullet wounds and no weapon"? i kinda want to see them before i belive them.....

The 2nd one I was paraphrasing from memory... it was a girl who had been near one of the security fences and was shot from one of the sentry towers. The story that ran in a lot of "mainstream news" was that she had run up towards the soldiers screaming, and they reacted instinctively and it made it seem like someone had just run right up to them yelling in a way that caused them to trigger react in self-defense. But then BBC I believe it was, their version of the story said the corpse was something like a few hundred yards away from the position of the soldiers up on the tower, and that some of the bullet wounds were inflicted postmortem. As in they had gone down to the body after shooting her and someone had emptied more rounds into her. She was unarmed. I could try to google the story but maybe someone else recalls it, it was several years back.

The human shield story is also old, so I don't have the original location I read it, but I noticed it's been spit back up on a lot of small sites:

http://www.techybytes.com/13-year-old-boy-used-as-human-shield/
http://i16.tinypic.com/4lqe2q0.jpg

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/834937.html
Another story, this time 11 year old girl instead of 13 year old boy (never seen this website before, I have no idea who owns it of it it's biased.)

Here's a story about a 15 year old boy who apparently was beaten unconscious by IDF during interrogation and later came back as a suicide bomber. (Sad waste.)

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/02/13/15-year-old-palestinian-boy-beaten-unconscious-by-israeli-prison-guards-becomes-latest-suicide-bomber/

[Fragony]

This

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/hitandmiss-g.jpg

this

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/offensive-g-1.jpg

and this

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/27858.jpg

[PanzerJaeger]

What a write off,that is the most pathetic response I get from people who support what Israel is doing, did you bother to look at he rest of he sight Panzer? I guess not.

It is not the Palestinians who are attempting to ethnically cleanse and entire country, it is not the Palestinians who have illegally stolen land from the natives for sixty years Panzer. It is not the Palestinians who have the Israelis living in open prisons and subject them daily to brutal opression.

As for the Intifada:juggle2:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15502

http://www.jerusalemites.org/Intifada/first.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15441.htm


I am amazed that you managed to dredge up some pro-arab pieces on the Infatada. ~:rolleyes:

What's truly pathetic are people such as yourself who have allowed themselves to succumb to what is essentially a rather basic propaganda campaign, and have come to support a group of people with such little collective self respect that they have allowed themselves to be manipulated in the most obscene ways by islamic fundamentalism - the kind of depravity that allows a mother to send her children to kill themselves, and a leader to encourage it. What's pathetic are people who throw around terms like “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide” because they think its cute in light of recent Jewish history.



Still a contentious issue , the pro-Israrelis will say it was the Palestinians and the pro-Palestinians will say it was the Israelis.
But since Panzer doesn't like the fact that both sides rejected peace at that meeting he fits into that strange category of third reich and Isreal supporter and as such is very easy to ridicule .


Heil! :laugh4:

Oh boy. Not even the consummate diplomat that was William Jefferson Clinton could keep his frustrations with Arafat under wraps... :laugh4:


Clinton, who promised Arafat that no one would be blamed if the talks failed, did, in fact, blame Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace." [4] According to The Oslo Syndrome, "most of the European states followed Clinton in seeing the Israeli offers as very forthcoming and placing the onus for the summits's failure on Arafat .... Nor did [Arafat's] regime's post-Camp David complaints regarding Israel's not recognizing the Palestinian refugees' 'right of return' win over the Europeans or Americans."[12] The failure to come to an agreement was widely attributed to Yasser Arafat, as he walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer and because Arafat did little to quell the series of Palestinian riots that began shortly after the summit.[10][12][13] Arafat was also accused of scuttling the talks by Nabil Amr, a former minister in the Palestinian Authority.[5]

In 2004, two books by American participants at the summit were published that placed the blame for the failure of the summit on Arafat. The books were The Missing Peace by longtime US Middle East envoy Dennis Ross and My Life by President Clinton. Clinton wrote that Arafat once complimented Clinton by telling him, "You are a great man." Clinton responded, "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one."[14][15]

Anyway, history will be the judge.


In 2000, US President Bill Clinton convened a peace summit between Palestinian President Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. Barak reportedly offered the Palestinian leader approximately 95% of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem, and that 69 Jewish settlements (which comprise 85% of the West Bank's Jewish settlers) be ceded to Israel. He also proposed "temporary Israeli control" indefinitely over another 10% of the West Bank territory--an area including many more Jewish settlements. According to Palestinian sources, the remaining area would be under Palestinian control, yet certain areas would be broken up by Israeli bypass roads and checkpoints. Depending on how the security roads would be configured, these Israeli roads might impede free travel by Palestinians throughout their proposed nation and reduce the ability to absorb Palestinian refugees.

President Arafat rejected this offer. President Clinton reportedly requested that President Arafat make a counter-offer, but he proposed none. No tenable solution was crafted which would satisfy both Israeli and Palestinian demands, even under intense U.S. pressure. Clinton blamed Arafat for the failure of the Camp David Summit. In the months following the summit, Clinton appointed former US Senator George J. Mitchell to lead a fact-finding committee that later published the Mitchell Report.



Just some advice Bopa, they're not basing it on right or wrong or evidence. They're basing it on ideology. The U.S. government says Israel is good and our ally, just like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and so many other wonderful countries doing commendable things with our foreign aid and investments. Until the same neocons who got rich off selling these guys weapons or arranging military training and contracts with Israel came out and made a case for war against Israel, I don't think many of the thinkers like CR or Panzer would change their minds. And if that day ever came they would deny there had ever been any contradiction ;) (We've seen this exact same thing happen with Iraq.)

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from any more attempts at psychoanalysis as you have obviously made the essential mistake of the ideologue: a distinct lack of investment in understanding opposing perspectives. If you cannot take the time to educate yourself even at a basic level of the various motivations for supporting Israel, you'll always be relegated to the intellectual sidelines.

I genuinely hope you were just being snarky and have given slightly more consideration to the issue than that. The conflict has been around a lot longer than the Bush administration.

[Koga No Goshi]

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from any more attempts at psychoanalysis as you have obviously made the essential mistake of the ideologue: a distinct lack of investment in understanding opposing perspectives. If you cannot take the time to educate yourself even at a basic level of the various motivations for supporting Israel, you'll always be relegated to the intellectual sidelines.

I genuinely hope you were just being snarky and have given slightly more consideration to the issue than that. The conflict has been around a lot longer than the Bush administration.

I assure you I have probably delved into it much further than you have. Anyone who has bothered to "educate themselves on the issue" would not issue a moral blank check endorsement of Israel. Especially as an American, someone who helps pay for and train the Israeli "awesome military force", and reaps some of the responsibility (both fairly and sometimes unfairly) from corners of the world that don't exactly think we're the best thing since sliced pita bread to begin with. I seriously question the breadth with which you could have possibly looked into the issue if you call anything reporting the situation of the Palestinians as "Arab infitada sources" and write the atrocities off. If that is truly your assessment of the situation I would submit you are the one who needs to look a bit more deeply at the issue, this time not just asking pro-Zionist Israelis their opinion.

And, who brought up George Bush? I was referring to Iraq being "our dictatorship" back before W's time, going back to Reagan, that we helped arm and all that good stuff, watched gas some Kurds. Then later, much later, for largely unrelated reasons, changing our posture. You do know those "friendlies" we were saving in Gulf 1, the Saudis and Kuwaitis, are not exactly people who would kick people who think like the Taliban off the birthday invite list right? The only consistency I can see whatsoever in what dictatorships right-wingers will condemn, for anything, is whether or not the Republican party is trying to drum up hostility or war with a given dictatorship. If there is some other standard used to determine who's a friendly and who's not when it comes to regimes which oppress people or commit low level genocide for "security", please explain it to me.

I've acknowledged Israel's right to exist, so the carpet is pulled out from under some stillborn argument that I'm just a far psycho leftie rooting for the "Arabs" and being anti-Israel. But I have also stated that I think Israel's policies are much more part of the problem than part of ANY solution. And the response to that seems to be "well, tough. Sucks to be Palestinians, that's what they get for being powerless undesirables. Until each and every single one of them earns an upstanding citizen of the year award, I see no reason to respect THEIR right to exist the way I recognize Israel's."

Did I miss something? By all means, be more detailed in your view of the situation if I have it wrong. But there are double standards galore for people who want to completely endorse Israel and completely dismiss Palestinians' situation.

[PanzerJaeger]

I assure you I have probably delved into it much further than you have.

If that were truly the case, I would think that you would have an understanding of what a ridiculous assertion it is to say that my support for Israel is because "the government told me to". I don't mean to be mean spirited in my response but that is a little insulting.

In any event, I am fully aware of how Israel conducts itself - and I have never tried to portray them as anything approaching saints. I would also fully expect the United States or any other nation to act in the same manner under those conditions - any less would constitute willful negligence of national security.

However, Camp David is only one in a string of real concessions by Israel for peace violently rejected by the palestinians. If you accept Israels right to exist, than you understand the necessity of compromise. Maybe you can explain that to the palestinians.

[Koga No Goshi]

If that were truly the case, I would think that you would have an understanding of what a ridiculous assertion it is to say that my support for Israel is because "the government told me to". I don't mean to be mean spirited in my response but that is a little insulting.

In any event, I am fully aware of how Israel conducts itself - and I have never tried to portray them as anything approaching saints. I would also fully expect the United States or any other nation to act in the same manner under those conditions - any less would constitute willful negligence of national security.

However, Camp David is only one in a string of real concessions by Israel for peace violently rejected by the palestinians. If you accept Israels right to exist, than you understand the necessity of compromise. Maybe you can explain that to the palestinians.

I never said that your stance was because the government told you to. I said that I could see no other consistency when it comes to people who defend the U.S.'s positive relations with countries whose foreign policies or human rights records absolutely put them on par with some of the worst offenders out there.

Your response was reasonable. Although I think that we need to get over Arafat, the man is long dead and buried, and press forward with a peace solution for now. And I think that with the implied promise of complete turned-eye support from the U.S. in the last 8 years, Israel has moved back into more heavyhanded extremism. I think no real peace solution on a going forward basis will work so long as Israel is confident in the U.S.'s unconditional support, no matter how it conducts itself. I hope for something different, but hope has kinda failed to deliver for half a century now in the case of Israel-Palestine.

Just as a friendly suggestion, if you do not want to be mistaken for being Really Crazy League pro-Israel, it might be a good idea not to come off like you are dismissing anything bad happening to Palestinians. It was misunderstanding given your last post, but that is I think the impression Bopa and I were receiving previously. When people seem a little too quick to brush off that bad things happen not just to Israelis in the conflict, I do very much feel one has to start questioning the motives involved, because, let's face it. A lot of people on both extreme ends of this argument (and I have no horse in the Israel-Palestine race, except for the fact that I'm American and it directs hate towards my country and we spend tons of money in military support and aid for Israel) while pretending to care about a solution hide behind a thin veil of racist nationalism. Both sides, I say again.

[Tribesman]

Anyway, history will be the judge.

True , and the judgement is that the gridlock of the Camp David II talks was about the same core issues that the Taba talks stalled on , namely the retention of illegal outposts and the illegal action of refusing the right of return , so yes it was all Arafats fault because Isreal wanted to do something very illegal and he didn't agree to it .:dizzy2:

But for some comments by two people who study the process and the history of it

The Oslo accords failed because Palestinians and Israelis still have national goals that are incompatible with each others' existence as free peoples, and with peace.


I maintain that Oslo was not given even a day's grace. Immediately, even before the ink was dry, the one side planned jihad and the brainwashing for jihad, while the other planned settlements. Therefore, I don't think Oslo failed, because Oslo was never tried.
Both of course being Israelis just for for balance as I wouldn't want anyone to suggest as such that both would be too biased :2thumbsup:
BTW Panzer why in your selective use of the wiki article do you omit all references(including those by Americans and Israelis) which flatly contradict your view:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Because when you write

However, Camp David is only one in a string of real concessions by Israel for peace
you seem to have missed the part in the source you use that says the only real concessions at Camp David came from the other side:yes:
It does sorta suggest that you are reading wearing rose tinted glasses that are somewhat further obscured by a rather large star of david sticker which covers the whole of both lenses .

[Koga No Goshi]

BTW Panzer why in your selective use of the wiki article do you omit all references(including those by Americans and Israelis) which flatly contradict your view:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

:laugh4: Oops!

[PanzerJaeger]

True , and the judgement is that the gridlock of the Camp David II talks was about the same core issues that the Taba talks stalled on , namely the retention of illegal outposts and the illegal action of refusing the right of return , so yes it was all Arafats fault because Isreal wanted to do something very illegal and he didn't agree to it .:dizzy2:

:laugh4:

Right of return has been a joke for years. A sad gimmick to destroy the process. Israel offered 90+% of land demanded plus a very handsome compensation to those affected. Only the most uncomprimising of idealogues could truly expect Israel to allow - or even be able to allow - millions of palestinians to re-inhabit land taken during a war started by the arabs more than 50 years ago! Thats compromise. :dizzy2:

But ya, keep hanging your arguments on that. It makes about as much sense as reparations for slavery and giving the Australia back to the natives.





Both of course being Israelis just for for balance as I wouldn't want anyone to suggest as such that both would be too biased :2thumbsup:
BTW Panzer why in your selective use of the wiki article do you omit all references(including those by Americans and Israelis) which flatly contradict your view:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Seeing as you just highlighted quotes that support your position, maybe you can answer that one on your own. ~;)



you seem to have missed the part in the source you use that says the only real concessions at Camp David came from the other side:yes:

Wow.


Barak offered to form a Palestinian State initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10 to 25 years the West Bank area would expand to 90-91% (94% excluding greater Jerusalem).[1][2][3] As a result, "Israel would have withdrawn from 63 settlements."[4] The West Bank would be separated by a road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea, with free passage for Palestinians although Israel reserved the right to close the road for passage in case of emergency. The Palestinian position was that the annexations would block existing road networks between major Palestinian populations. In return, the Israelis would cede 1% of their territory in the Negev Desert to Palestine. The Palestinians rejected this proposal.

Ya, thats definitely not a real concession. :dizzy2:

[Fragony]

That must be the ones under 'critisism' as on every wiki page. There wasn't such a thing as 'one side', plo (officially) backed it and Hamas didn't.

[Koga No Goshi]

But ya, keep hanging your arguments on that. It makes about as much sense as reparations for slavery and giving the Australia back to the natives.


Don't make carelessly thoughtless remarks like that. Going down that route, those things make about as much sense as giving Palestine back to the Israelis back in the 40's.

[Incongruous]

If that were truly the case, I would think that you would have an understanding of what a ridiculous assertion it is to say that my support for Israel is because "the government told me to". I don't mean to be mean spirited in my response but that is a little insulting.

In any event, I am fully aware of how Israel conducts itself - and I have never tried to portray them as anything approaching saints. I would also fully expect the United States or any other nation to act in the same manner under those conditions - any less would constitute willful negligence of national security.

However, Camp David is only one in a string of real concessions by Israel for peace violently rejected by the palestinians. If you accept Israels right to exist, than you understand the necessity of compromise. Maybe you can explain that to the palestinians.

Dear God, this is actually rather disgusting, you state that you fully understand what Israel is doing but admit quite freely to supporting it.
Disturbing, none less than people who go round condoning the Fascist regimes of the past century, you think that I reckon its cute that the Israelis are commiting mass murder and ethnic cleansing? Yeah I'm having a bloody laugh mate:no:
I suggest you go and read a book by John Pilger called Freedom Next Time. That's just for a start.

http://hrw.org/doc?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

Israel is a rogue state.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Dear God, this is actually rather disgusting, you state that you fully understand what Israel is doing but admit quite freely to supporting it.
Disturbing, none less than people who go round condoning the Fascist regimes of the past century, you think that I reckon its cute that the Israelis are commiting mass murder and ethnic cleansing? Yeah I'm having a bloody laugh mate:no:
I suggest you go and read a book by John Pilger called Freedom Next Time. That's just for a start.

http://hrw.org/doc?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

Israel is a rogue state.

I think if you calm down a little, you will see that PJ is advocating an uncompromising defence of the state of Israel. One may disagree with him, but the position is not "crap" and for even moderate and liberal Israelis who want to see a peace deal, it is always a consideration in the face of unwavering attacks by radical Palestinian groups.

As I've noted before, the best way for a disempowered people such as the Palestinians to resist the occupation of a democracy like Israel is not through terrorism, but peaceful civil resistance. Whilst they fight back by killing innocents, no matter what is revisited upon them by the IDF, they cannot gain a moral foothold.

By fighting through terror, they leave only the option of a military victory over Israel which will never come. They also allow the kind of view that espouses overwhelming force as reaction to the outrages to be a valid one.

Palestinians are failed first and foremost by their leadership. Their current fate is a failure of global statecraft.

(And thank you for the laugh at the thought of PJ having anything by John Pilger in the house without fumigation :beam:)

[Incongruous]

I think if you calm down a little, you will see that PJ is advocating an uncompromising defence of the state of Israel. One may disagree with him, but the position is not "crap" and for even moderate and liberal Israelis who want to see a peace deal, it is always a consideration in the face of unwavering attacks by radical Palestinian groups.

As I've noted before, the best way for a disempowered people such as the Palestinians to resist the occupation of a democracy like Israel is not through terrorism, but peaceful civil resistance. Whilst they fight back by killing innocents, no matter what is revisited upon them by the IDF, they cannot gain a moral foothold.

By fighting through terror, they leave only the option of a military victory over Israel which will never come. They also allow the kind of view that espouses overwhelming force as reaction to the outrages to be a valid one.

Palestinians are failed first and foremost by their leadership. Their current fate is a failure of global statecraft.

(And thank you for the laugh at the thought of PJ having anything by John Pilger in the house without fumigation :beam:)

Well, I did qickly moderate my post:beam:

I am afraid that I disagree with you about the best way for the Palestinians to react. They reacted peacfully at first before the Intifada, they have protested peacfully about the seperation wall, and countless of other Israeli crimes. It has all come to naught. I cannot accept that a native population fighting for freedom do not always hold the moral highround. I do not count Hamas as an extremist group and niether should anyone, they have commited crimes, but they have also shown themselves to be realists. Having accepted quite a few years ago the reality of Israel. They also not disrespecting of Palestinian religious minorities, having openly backed Christian politicians in The West Bank and Gaza. When Hamas refer to Jihad, they of coarse mean struggle, in this case resistance is their main motto.
If you are refering to Islamic Jihad, then I agree, they have never acted in anything but a criminal manner.

I think also we have to remember that.

If the Palestinians were simply treated like Human beings, they would I believe meet and surpass the greatest of expectations.

They are treated like animals, and I have nothing but respect for them, that they have not degenerated into savages is evidence of their humanity and determination.


I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry Goldwater, Republican Senator for Arizona.

[Tribesman]

Ya, thats definitely not a real concession.
Correct , since it isn't a concession at all .
Israel has absolutely no legal claim to the occupied territories .
Offering to return only some stolen property isn't a concession its theft .


"Israel would have withdrawn from 63 settlements."
Wow , so panzer thats like if I stole your car and offered to give it back as long as I can keep the engine and wheels .....a very generous offer eh :dizzy2:

[JR-]

Not in the slightest , the problem was that the IDF underestimated the opposition.

You neglect the fact that other forces are able to learn too....the early destruction of Israels northern command complex hidden in a peaceful agricultural development absolutely stumped forward control and the whole planning stage with the result that troops were sent without sufficient support into areas they shouldn't have gone at all and the heavy support was sent into death traps where their effect was neutralised .

yes, i said that the IDF got complacent, that isn't in contention.

there is a difference between occasionally getting lucky and occasionally making a mistake.
it is quite frankly ridiculous to think otherwise given the history of the US armed forces and the IDF.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Well, I did qickly moderate my post:beam:

Stout fella. :bow:


I am afraid that I disagree with you about the best way for the Palestinians to react. They reacted peacfully at first before the Intifada, they have protested peacfully about the seperation wall, and countless of other Israeli crimes. It has all come to naught. I cannot accept that a native population fighting for freedom do not always hold the moral highround. I do not count Hamas as an extremist group and niether should anyone, they have commited crimes, but they have also shown themselves to be realists. Having accepted quite a few years ago the reality of Israel. They also not disrespecting of Palestinian religious minorities, having openly backed Christian politicians in The West Bank and Gaza. When Hamas refer to Jihad, they of coarse mean struggle, in this case resistance is their main motto.
If you are refering to Islamic Jihad, then I agree, they have never acted in anything but a criminal manner.

You have a point, and as a citizen of a country that spent 800 years fighting an occupier until gaining independence, it would be dishonest of me to claim that peace is the only way.

But it did take us 800 years to finally bring an overwhelming power to the negotiation table, and even then we had to take significant lumps of "compromise". The Palestinians are only 60 years down that line, and have been offered a much better deal - but still an unpalatable one. Do they really want another several centuries of conflict?

Hamas has a nasty record of crimes. Nonetheless, the primary barrier to them moving forward in a spirit of compromise is that they are agents of a foreign power with a distinct interest in prolonging the conflict. The problem here is that all the disparate groups claiming to represent the Palestinian people through war, have their own agendas, and none of them can be trusted to actually cease fire should a deal be made. Israel does not make anything easier by her own disproportionate retaliation, but she does have the desire for a lasting peace. Tribesman noted very properly the increasing weariness and economic costs of the occupation. Both sides have utterly brutalised generations.

To my mind, the only way forward is the Palestinian people renouncing violence as a means. They may suffer for some while, but not long as the world would not look kindly on further Israeli violence. The Intifada was a huge mistake by Arafat. (But there was prior Palestinian violence via the PLO and let's not forget, many attempted invasions by neighbouring states).


I think also we have to remember that.

If the Palestinians were simply treated like Human beings, they would I believe meet and surpass the greatest of expectations.

They are treated like animals, and I have nothing but respect for them, that they have not degenerated into savages is evidence of their humanity and determination.

I don't disagree, but they might start by treating Israelis as human beings too, and not talk about driving a people who had already been near exterminated, back into the sea.

[PanzerJaeger]

Dear God, this is actually rather disgusting, you state that you fully understand what Israel is doing but admit quite freely to supporting it.

A man as obviously well read on the subject as yourself must certainly be aware of the elements that comprise the current and past palestinian leadership as well as the tactics they employ. Any claims of moral superiority from either side fall flat, so there isn't much point in trying to figure out which one is more disgusting.

I believe Israel has been forced to take steps that any responsible nation would under such circumstances. You don't. That's fine. What is not productive are the constant claims of mass murder, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. It's a poor rhetorical device that essentially mocks the Jewish experience.

Anyway, my point is not that the Israelis are good and the palestinians are evil. It is that in recent times, Israel has come to the table time and again in a mature manner prepared to make real concessions to ensure a workable situation for both parties. On the other hand, the palestinians refuse to compromise and insist on returning to conditions that haven't existed since 1948. (:dizzy2:) When every demand isn't met, they've shown a historical proclivity to lash out through terrorism - which, I might add, only increases the steps Israel's government is willing to take to ensure their security.




Correct , since it isn't a concession at all .
Israel has absolutely no legal claim to the occupied territories .
Offering to return only some stolen property isn't a concession its theft .


I always figured you as more of a realist....

This is the problem. They were on the wrong side of a lost war in 1948. 60 years ago. It's time to swallow their pride and accept the historical reality. Israel is ready to make a deal, but it will take compromise - not unrealistic demands such as right of return.

[Hax]

kinda hard to kill the palestinian terrorists when they hide behind kids and women.

Israeli murderers are called commandos!

Arab commandos are called murderers. <_<

[Hooahguy]

Correct , since it isn't a concession at all .
Israel has absolutely no legal claim to the occupied territories .
Offering to return only some stolen property isn't a concession its theft .


Wow , so panzer thats like if I stole your car and offered to give it back as long as I can keep the engine and wheels .....a very generous offer eh :dizzy2:

um, yes we do......

http://christianactionforisrael.org/un/more242.html

[Hooahguy]

Israeli murderers are called commandos!

Arab commandos are called murderers. <_<

and what do you call arab suicide bombers? martyrs? just like celtic punk called them?

[Hax]

I didn't state at all that I sympathize with suicide bombers. Read my post again.

[Fragony]

I didn't state at all that I sympathize with suicide bombers. Read my post again.

Only slightly more then you do with Israeli commando's?

[Hax]

No. I only state that I disagree just as much with the Israeli murderers as with the Palestinian murderers.

[Fragony]

Israeli murderers are called commandos!

Arab commandos are called murderers. <_<


^- odd way to put it though. Could have fooled me.

Poor Israel, not only is it constantly under attack it also has to live up to our oh-so-recent-standards

[Incongruous]

A man as obviously well read on the subject as yourself must certainly be aware of the elements that comprise the current and past palestinian leadership as well as the tactics they employ. Any claims of moral superiority from either side fall flat, so there isn't much point in trying to figure out which one is more disgusting.

I believe Israel has been forced to take steps that any responsible nation would under such circumstances. You don't. That's fine. What is not productive are the constant claims of mass murder, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. It's a poor rhetorical device that essentially mocks the Jewish experience.

Anyway, my point is not that the Israelis are good and the palestinians are evil. It is that in recent times, Israel has come to the table time and again in a mature manner prepared to make real concessions to ensure a workable situation for both parties. On the other hand, the palestinians refuse to compromise and insist on returning to conditions that haven't existed since 1948. (:dizzy2:) When every demand isn't met, they've shown a historical proclivity to lash out through terrorism - which, I might add, only increases the steps Israel's government is willing to take to ensure their security.



No Panzer, you illustrate either a true lack of knowledge or a willingnes to condone Israeli opression. It is as simple as that.

You see, Israel has committed mass murder and ethnic cleansing, the Holocaust cannot expunge that from the historical record and it will be to the eternal shame of Israel unless they willingly accept responsibility.
I have already said that both Hamas (a very popular and by no means extreme group) and Fatah have recognised that Israel is going to stay, but niether can nor should accept the enshrinement of the theft of their land. Israel has one option, adjust to U.N suggested borders, nothing else. Until that time the Palestinians are fully within their right to fight for simple human dignity.
Terrorism? I call it resistance.

As for the Intifada, well you can lame the Palestinians for finally getting sick of constant Israeli attacks on civilians, but I won't. Israel is holding the knife upon which is its own blood.

If the Western media would for a second focus on the peacful protests, of which many more Palestinians take part than in violence then we may see some change, Banquo.

[Strike For The South]

Killing women and children is not resistance, its terrorism. Having your leadership condone such attacks is very counterproductive in the grand scheme of things. If you cant see that than you are simply taking Palestinian propaganda hook line and sinker.

[Incongruous]

It is an act of utter desperation these people are literally backed into a corner, daily subjected to degredation adn denied the basicsof Human life and dignity.

Israel does the exact same thing, but through choice not necessity.

As I said the majority of Palestinians do not commit acts of violence, but stage peacful protests, which go noticed, it seems, by the rest of the world.

[Banquo's Ghost]

As I said the majority of Palestinians do not commit acts of violence, but stage peacful protests, which go noticed, it seems, by the rest of the world.

In the same way as the large numbers of Israelis who deplore their government's heavy handedness and hope to find a solution that will bring peace.

The headlines are always co-opted by scenes of dying children. Peaceful protest is always over-shadowed by acts of war.

I repeat: the Palestinians cannot win by war. Therefore their only option is peace and the hope of goodwill. No such future can be as hopeless and miserable as their present.

[Strike For The South]

And the majority of Israelis have not killed a Palestinian.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

This is the problem. They were on the wrong side of a lost war in 1948. 60 years ago. It's time to swallow their pride and accept the historical reality. Israel is ready to make a deal, but it will take compromise - not unrealistic demands such as right of return.

Perhaps Tribesman is also in favour of returning Prussia to Germany? :idea2:

[Tribesman]

um, yes we do......

http://christianactionforisrael.org/un/more242.html
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
the end of timers who want Gods chosen people to have jerusalem to bring about the second coming:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:can you find a less reliable source:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

What a pile of bollox , but as you are clearly unable to understand lets put you straight , that resolution is issued under the UN Charter , the UN charter says it has to agree with international law , international law says the taking and retention of territory and moving your civilian population into militarily occupied territory is illegal . Israel is signatory to both the charter and the international conventions and as such is bound by them until it chooses to leave them .
So when you say um, yes we do...... you are demontrating that you havn't the faintest idea what you are talking about:yes:


Perhaps Tribesman is also in favour of returning Prussia to Germany?
Which parties in that dispute were signatories to agreements that said you cannot take land by force ? Nice try Mars , but wrong time:oops:

[Koga No Goshi]

People who get too bogged in Israel-Palestine are kinda missing a big one. Almost unconditional support from the U.S. and the West for Israel, with at best lukewarm consideration of the Palestinians. It's a third rail in the conflict that tends to get overlooked. It's like saying to the Hutus and Tutsis okay now, we want a real resolution, now here you go Hutus, here's a state of the art satellite system and a training program with the Navy Seals. Israel might be ready to strike some kind of deal. But I do not believe as long as it has unconditional backing from the West that it will be ready for a real deal that can create lasting peace.

[PanzerJaeger]

No Panzer, you illustrate either a true lack of knowledge or a willingnes to condone Israeli opression. It is as simple as that.

No, I condone Israel's necessity to defend itself in the face of an uncompromising enemy who refuses to accept very generous peace offers. This all could have been finished time and again if the palestinians allowed for it. As I outlined, in 2000 the palestinians could have had their own nation with more than 90% of their land demands met along with healthy compensation for those who lost property in 1948 if they had been willing to yield on right of return and some minor Israeli security concerns. The PLA under Arafat and now the new leadership both have a vested interest in keeping the conflict going.

Why do you think Israel knocks people's houses down? Why do you think they fire missiles into the strip with unfortunate collateral damage? Why do you think they raid palestinian areas and round up young men for processing? Enjoyment? Entertainment? Do you think they get some sick pleasure out of it? Or have you considered that they may be deadly afraid that their children will be the next to get on a bus with a suicide bomber?

The violence is reciprocal. I'm perfectly willing to accept that Israel's heavy-handed tactics have had a counterproductive effect, in that they have encouraged hatred and fanaticism. You need to accept that those same tactics were developed in response to the vicious and deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians.

This is what I'm talking about. The palestinian leadership is so focused in its hatred towards Israel and its own pride that it has missed several opportunities to actually attain what most palestinians want - peace, stability, and security. Israel has its own fanatics, but it has consistently been willing to make a deal and create a palestinian state. Palestine could have been celebrating it's 8th birthday this year... :shrug:

If their leadership continues to base their fundamental position on turning the clock back 60 years to a time before they joined with the arabs to destroy Israel - and lost - no progress will be made.



You see, Israel has committed mass murder and ethnic cleansing, the Holocaust cannot expunge that from the historical record and it will be to the eternal shame of Israel unless they willingly accept responsibility.


As a German, I would think you would have a little better understanding of what those terms mean.

[Kadagar_AV]

Kad. Who are you arguing against? I'm a bit confused. I've yet to see anyone who said, "Ohemgee, peace at last!" like you seem to be insinuating. If you actually read posts, nearly everyone has inserted the rather important word IF. IF. So please, address to whom your argument is directed, its the second time you've gone off, and I'm frankly not sure why.

Huh?

I have "gone off" cause of the situation in this area...

I did not disagree with any member...

You have to argue against people to write here, or is it ok to went frustration over stupid people doing stupid things in a topic about stupid people?

My definition of "stupid" includes fighting wars over symbolic things, just for the record.

[Incongruous]

No, I condone Israel's necessity to defend itself in the face of an uncompromising enemy who refuses to accept very generous peace offers. This all could have been finished time and again if the palestinians allowed for it. As I outlined, in 2000 the palestinians could have had their own nation with more than 90% of their land demands met along with healthy compensation for those who lost property in 1948 if they had been willing to yield on right of return and some minor Israeli security concerns. The PLA under Arafat and now the new leadership both have a vested interest in keeping the conflict going.

Why do you think Israel knocks people's houses down? Why do you think they fire missiles into the strip with unfortunate collateral damage? Why do you think they raid palestinian areas and round up young men for processing? Enjoyment? Entertainment? Do you think they get some sick pleasure out of it? Or have you considered that they may be deadly afraid that their children will be the next to get on a bus with a suicide bomber?

The violence is reciprocal. I'm perfectly willing to accept that Israel's heavy-handed tactics have had a counterproductive effect, in that they have encouraged hatred and fanaticism. You need to accept that those same tactics were developed in response to the vicious and deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians.

If their leadership continues to base their fundamental position on turning the clock back 60 years to a time before they joined with the arabs to destroy Israel - and lost - no progress will be made.

I would think you would have a little better understanding of what those terms mean.

Ok, Israeli security interests, what do you think that little gem really means?
90%, not good enough, Israel is a rogue state, it has to give in 100%, otherwise no deal.

Israel knocks down Palestinian houses in an effort to ethnically cleanse the holy land, any Christian who supports such desecration of The Holy Land is no follower of Christ.

Unfortunate collateral dmage? It's not collateral, its calculated, just like U.S and British high altitude bombing in Afghanistan which levels entire villages. When you fire rockets into a city, you knowingly kill civilians, its murder. Israel is famous for using massive amounts of cluster bombs.

I don't get it Panzer, Israel has commite mass murder and is ethnically cleansing Palestine. What the Nazis did to the Jews does not change this fact.

[PanzerJaeger]

90%, not good enough, Israel is a rogue state, it has to give in 100%, otherwise no deal.

If I haven't made my point clearly enough, you surely have.

[Hooahguy]

No. I only state that I disagree just as much with the Israeli murderers as with the Palestinian murderers.
ya, well, considering my uncle was a commando, and hes definitly not a murderer, i took offense....

[Hooahguy]

Ok, Israeli security interests, what do you think that little gem really means?
90%, not good enough, Israel is a rogue state, it has to give in 100%, otherwise no deal.
it means that we have to do whatever possible, whether the other nations like it or not, to defend ourselves. were one of the smallest countries (save for the UAE and other small ones there) in the middle east, yet have most arab countires around us wanting our death.

and not only that,
"90%, not good enough"
its called a compromise..... we didnt get everything we wanted in 1948..... just becasue they dont get everything they wanted, they shouldnt reject it....... take the best they can get and build off that for a prosperous homeland..... assuming they accept something..... :wall:



Israel knocks down Palestinian houses in an effort to ethnically cleanse the holy land, any Christian who supports such desecration of The Holy Land is no follower of Christ.

Unfortunate collateral dmage? It's not collateral, its calculated, just like U.S and British high altitude bombing in Afghanistan which levels entire villages. When you fire rockets into a city, you knowingly kill civilians, its murder. Israel is famous for using massive amounts of cluster bombs.

I don't get it Panzer, Israel has commite mass murder and is ethnically cleansing Palestine. What the Nazis did to the Jews does not change this fact.

mass murder? really? on a large scale? have you been reading al-jezeera too much lately? not even the most liberal newspapers are reporting that anywhere i can tell. if you can show me 3 non-biased reports of mass murder, ill consider it.

now let me write of a few horrendous attacks your "peace-loving" palestinian friends committed against solely israeli civilians.

coastal road massacre- march 11, 1978
11 fatah members take control of 2 buses heading from haifa to tel-aviv. 35 israeli civilians killed, many of them children.

kiryat shimona- april 11, 1974
apartment complex attacked, 16 killed, mostly women and children.

ma'alot- may 15, 1974
terroists take 105 israeli students hostage after murdering a jewish family, along with a 4 year old child. 21 kids and 3adults are killed. 68 wounded.

that enough proof that we need to take strict security measures when it comes to palestinians.

[Hax]

mass murder? really? on a large scale? have you been reading al-jezeera too much lately?

At least Al Jazeera doesn't hide things <_<

[Fragony]

<_<

Nice try

[Hax]

Thanks.


that enough proof that we need to take strict security measures when it comes to palestinians.

Cool. So much for helping them as well, as you said before.

[Hooahguy]

Cool. So much for helping them as well, as you said before.
...which we do....:wall:
we help them a ton....

[Hooahguy]

At least Al Jazeera doesn't hide things <_<

excuse me?
did you just say what i thought you just said?:inquisitive:

[Hax]

...which we do....:wall:
we help them a ton....

Oh yes. Denying civil rights, demolishing homes, expelling people. Really helpful. Perhaps they didn't get enough fresh air.


excuse me?
did you just say what i thought you just said?:inquisitive:

I distinctly remember that the Bush administration forbade the US media to show pictures of wounded and dead American soldiers in Iraq. Something Al Jazeera did do.

[Hooahguy]

Oh yes. Denying civil rights, demolishing homes, expelling people. Really helpful. Perhaps they didn't get enough fresh air.
giving aid, food, shelter, to them. please, i doubt youve been there. i have. ive given palestinians fod and medicine and helped build them communities. you dont know much about the situation there except for what you hear from Al Jazeera..... :whip:



I distinctly remember that the Bush administration forbade the US media to show pictures of wounded and dead American soldiers in Iraq. Something Al Jazeera did do.
really. now then, how come i see all the time pics of dead americans. you dont even live in the US. how can you judge what was shown? please back up what you said.
with that, i present to you to ORLY owl....:
Unfortunately, that owl was hotlinked, and thus must fly away. You can host the picture yourself, of course. BG

lol

[Hax]

really. now then, how come i see all the time pics of dead americans. you dont even live in the US. how can you judge what was shown? please back up what you said.

During the first three months of the invasion of Iraq, the Bush administration forbade all the media in the US of showing any pictures of dead Americans, to give their inhabitants the illusion that they were winning the war. They cannot win this war. Not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan.


giving aid, food, shelter, to them. please, i doubt youve been there. i have. ive given palestinians fod and medicine and helped build them communities.

Oh yeah? Well to counter with your own words


please back up what you said.

Evidence, please. It's really easy to say such things on the interblag.

[Strike For The South]

During the first three months of the invasion of Iraq, the Bush administration forbade all the media in the US of showing any pictures of dead Americans, to give their inhabitants the illusion that they were winning the war. They cannot win this war. Not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan.

We already won both wars its the occupying thats the problem.

[Hooahguy]

show proof, aka, an unbiased link. i never recall, nor do any of my teachers that he did that.
but lets leave iraq alone for now(which we are winning btw.... look at the statistics from 2007 to 2008)
back to israel!

[Hax]

We already won both wars its the occupying thats the problem.

Exactly.

[Strike For The South]

During the first three months of the invasion of Iraq, the Bush administration forbade all the media in the US of showing any pictures of dead Americans, to give their inhabitants the illusion that they were winning the war. They cannot win this war. Not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan.


Well this person must be wrong then....

[Koga No Goshi]

show proof, aka, an unbiased link. i never recall, nor do any of my teachers that he did that.
but lets leave iraq alone for now(which we are winning btw.... look at the statistics from 2007 to 2008)
back to israel!

he did do it. If you're referring to the media blackout. The coffins coming home are still not allowed to be shown, either.

[KarlXII]

show proof, aka, an unbiased link. i never recall, nor do any of my teachers that he did that.
but lets leave iraq alone for now(which we are winning btw.... look at the statistics from 2007 to 2008)
back to israel!

Please, you're the last one who should be demanding unbiased sources. If I recall, you linked to "Christains for Israel" as the legal ground Israel has to exist.

We are winning militarily, we'll losing politically. If Iraq will not stand up to it's responsibilities, we have lost. It happened in Vietnam. The terrorists are not stupid, they know that if you have a few hundred Americans dead, they'll be wide protests in the country. This is a war we cannot win with cluster bombs and grenades, but with words and relations with the people.

[Hooahguy]

Please, you're the last one who should be demanding unbiased sources. If I recall, you linked to "Christains for Israel" as the legal ground Israel has to exist.
usually i dont use that site- i just needed a site that said UN resolution 202 that i could find quickly. and that came up....

[Hooahguy]

he did do it. If you're referring to the media blackout. The coffins coming home are still not allowed to be shown, either.
so what do you call this?
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:K7pLj3DaA8YSKM:http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/return-coffins-from-iraq.jpg

and this?
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:kRf6AP7qPHSoiM:http://thinq4yourself.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/military_coffins3.jpg

[Koga No Goshi]

so what do you call this?
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:K7pLj3DaA8YSKM:http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/return-coffins-from-iraq.jpg

and this?
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:kRf6AP7qPHSoiM:http://thinq4yourself.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/military_coffins3.jpg

Those were on televised news?

[Hooahguy]

ive seen them and the like- on CNN, FOX, and the history/military channels

[Koga No Goshi]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.dover17feb17,0,2835624.story

From story:

None of this happens in public view. A Defense Department edict issued in 1991 during the Persian Gulf war keeps reporters and television cameras away from the somber ceremony known as "dignified transfer" that unfolds as the remains are taken off the planes.

During the Vietnam War, images of caskets by the hundreds being unloaded at Dover had a powerful impact on the American public. The images evolved into a kind of political shorthand: Could the nation's resolve survive the "Dover test"?

The media blackout enables the military and policymakers in Washington to sidestep the question. A White House spokesman declined to comment on the policy.

Since the ban was initiated more than a decade ago, there have been few exceptions. One was the return of 17 sailors killed in the suicide bombing of the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, in October 2000, in the waning days of the Clinton administration.

[Hooahguy]

well, i get a server error when i try to open the link...
but that was done in respect to the family of the deceased. while cameras are allowed, its incredibly disrespectful to have reporters and cameras there.
ive been to a military funeral, and my god, its a lot worse to see a friend go off in a casket that it seems....

[Koga No Goshi]

well, i get a server error when i try to open the link...
but that was done in respect to the family of the deceased. while cameras are allowed, its incredibly disrespectful to have reporters and cameras there.
ive been to a military funeral, and my god, its a lot worse to see a friend go off in a casket that it seems....

Well what you say is true but it's also beside the point. It's not just the caskets themselves, or the funerals, there are all kinds of funny rules about how things get counted or whose injuries qualify as war casualties or not and civilian body counts and what not. In short, put it all together and it's basically just a way to minimize war weariness and the unpopularity of the war, and a strategy pretty much used since Vietnam. It's not conspiracy theory.

[Hooahguy]

ya, well that makes sense. most people get discouraged when they see caskets. i mean, thats what make america lose the vietnam war in a morale sense....

[Koga No Goshi]

ya, well that makes sense. most people get discouraged when they see caskets. i mean, thats what make america lose the vietnam war in a morale sense....

Don't you think that maybe it had something to do with the fact that Iraq, like Vietnam, is something that maybe sounds good on paper, or written down in a book, in a theoretical sort of sense, but when it came to American boys coming back shredded in caskets, the ignorant American public had a different opinion about if it was really worth it?

Vietnam, nor Iraq, were ever going to send over their aircraft carriers to attack us. And it became increasingly difficult to sell both wars just on fear tactics... in both cases just "IT WILL BE SO MUCH WORSE IF WE LEAVE, OMG, JUST BELIEVE ME, REALLY REALLY REALLY EXTRA SPECIAL TRIPLE SCOOP BAD."

I think it's immoral to sell a war like it's a neat little slogan and videogame. And then try to hide from people the human cost in lives and casualties. If the only reason people will support a war is because they believe there have been zero or close to negligible human deaths involved, then maybe something is wrong with the cause of the war... rather than just the reporting of the war.

[Hooahguy]

the problem is that america lost its guts, and the government knows it. when they see some nasty stuff, they turn and run. if WWII happened today, with its 202,000 losses, wed have been under nazi control or something.
but lets not digress from the main topis. i dont want this thread closed.

[Strike For The South]

the problem is that america lost its guts, and the government knows it. when they see some nasty stuff, they turn and run. if WWII happened today, with its 202,000 losses, wed have been under nazi control or something.
but lets not digress from the main topis. i dont want this thread closed.

418,000

[Hax]

EDIT: Never mind, would differ from topic too much.

[Hooahguy]

418,000
oops...

[Koga No Goshi]

oops... i was talking about deaths, not casualties, but ok...

You equate every war as being the same. I think Vietnam was a joke, propped up by a bunch of fear tactics which proved false. I think Iraq is a joke sold and propped up by the same thing. The American people knew how much they were sacrificing in WWII, knew the reason why, and did it anyway, and enlisted in huge numbers. It's in fact an insult to equate it with Iraq.

You make it sound like the government had to trick people into fighting WWII, like they did with Iraq.

[Hooahguy]

thats not the point. back then we could stand and take losses. now we cant, simple fact.
i dont think every war is the same and another part of the reason we lost in 'nam was the hippie movement of the 60's.

[KukriKhan]

An interesting tangent, lads.

But I remind that the topic is: "Israel admits the withdrawal from the territories gained in the Six-Day War".

Thanks. :bow:

[Koga No Goshi]

thats not the point. back then we could stand and take losses. now we cant, simple fact.
i dont think every war is the same and another part of the reason we lost in 'nam was the hippie movement of the 60's.

It's the cause. Again, not all wars are the same. I'm much more inclined to fight to stop imminent invasion than I am to I dunno even what the hell... prop up the Shias today and the Sunnis tomorrow or whoever has the stronger militia at the moment, and for what?

At any rate, trying to move back to the point, yes, media coverage of conflict does count for something. And the fact that I have to go to the BBC to even READ anything about Palestinians does help shape American attitudes about the conflict.

[gaelic cowboy]

As regards this topic i dont see the problem Israel is allowed to remove it self from anyplace it claims if it wants it can leave the whole country.

This proposal makes sense millitarily or politically for Israel or else they would not do it.

[Hooahguy]

of course it CAN remove itself from anywhere it wants to, but whether it is a wise decision is the question...

[KarlXII]

of course it CAN remove itself from anywhere it wants to, but whether it is a wise decision is the question...

You'd rather have them keep occupying it?

[Hooahguy]

occupying the west bank? yes.

[Tribesman]

i just needed a site that said UN resolution 202 that i could find quickly. and that came up....

If you want a site that has a UN resolution go to the UN website:dizzy2:
It helps because it is easy to find the full resolution and the discussions by the parties that crafted the document , that way you get all the relevant info instead of some rather useless biased rubbish like you posted that is very very selective in what it prints .You also get all the other resoulutions pertaining to the one you want and all the backround information regarding the situation as reported to the people drafting the resolution and all follow up reports on the resolution itself .
So simple isn't it .

[Koga No Goshi]

occupying the west bank? yes.

Occupations tend to direct violence against you. It's nothing particularly savage about the Palestinians.

[KarlXII]

Occupations tend to direct violence against you. It's nothing particularly savage about the Palestinians.

"Sir! Sir! Hamas has launched rockets on our towns, what should we do?"
"Run over their houses! That should teach them!"

[Hooahguy]

the UN site doesnt have the resolutions.... :inquisitive:

[Tribesman]

the UN site doesnt have the resolutions....
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::lau gh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Hooahguy]

"Sir! Sir! Hamas has launched rockets on our towns, what should we do?"
"Run over their houses! That should teach them!"
not really true. you dont see us rolling into gaza and wiping out their houses randomly.

do you really think the palestinians deserve can sustain thier own homeland? look what they did in the opening hours when they got gaza back. tore down the greenhouses, ruined the irrigation lines, ect. they dont listen to thier excuse for a government, hamas, who launches rockets into civilian populations.
suitable for a contry, i think not....

[Hooahguy]

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::lau gh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

really? then find it for me. Resolution 202

also, i would respect you a lot more if you stop laughing at my every comment.

[Hooahguy]

Occupations tend to direct violence against you. It's nothing particularly savage about the Palestinians.

the funny thing is that most of the violence is coming from gaza, not the west bank. from what i hear, the palestinians are pretty happy there, under israeli rule....

[Koga No Goshi]

not really true. you dont see us rolling into gaza and wiping out their houses randomly.

do you really think the palestinians deserve can sustain thier own homeland? look what they did in the opening hours when they got gaza back. tore down the greenhouses, ruined the irrigation lines, ect. they dont listen to thier excuse for a government, hamas, who launches rockets into civilian populations.
suitable for a contry, i think not....

What's that famous conclusion of foreign policy in all of modern times... I'm paraphrasing it. Basically, that peace with radical insurgencies/extremists/guerillas/terrorists has never been achieved without incorporating them into a political framework. In other words, you're never going to wipe them out and win. The only thing you can do is absorb them into a political structure where they have a voice, legitimacy, and suddenly a stake in a stable country and something to lose. There will never be a peaceful resolution any other way, IMHO.

So, we can chide the Palestinians for their naivete, stupidity and violence, and poor leadership. But, the rest of us (meaning the West, the U.S., and yes Israel too) are just biting off our noses to spite our face if we expect to watch 50 more years of Israel-Palestine and expect any change to occur from policy as it has existed for the last 50.

[Hooahguy]

What's that famous conclusion of foreign policy in all of modern times... I'm paraphrasing it. Basically, that peace with radical insurgencies/extremists/guerillas/terrorists has never been achieved without incorporating them into a political framework. In other words, you're never going to wipe them out and win. The only thing you can do is absorb them into a political structure where they have a voice, legitimacy, and suddenly a stake in a stable country and something to lose. There will never be a peaceful resolution any other way, IMHO.

So, we can chide the Palestinians for their naivete, stupidity and violence, and poor leadership. But, the rest of us (meaning the West, the U.S., and yes Israel too) are just biting off our noses to spite our face if we expect to watch 50 more years of Israel-Palestine and expect any change to occur from policy as it has existed for the last 50.
mind giving a few examples?

[Tribesman]

i would respect you a lot more if you stop laughing at my every comment.
I don't laugh at your every comment , only those that I feel deserve it


really? then find it for me. Resolution 202

But before I provide the link to resolution 202 from the UN website I do think you should answer a rather important question .
Errrr..hold on this is quite a hard question to put together , I need to find the right words to convey the true importance of the statement in relation to the topic and your seeming inability to use a simple , well constructed , comprehensive website like the UN one .
Ok .......here goes ....get ready for it .......it really is a good question.........What on earth has the resolution from the 6th of May 1965 concerning the question of the situation in Southern Rhodesia have to do with the price of cheese ?:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Hooahguy]

oops i meant 242....
ok, that was laughable, ill admit..

[Tribesman]

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/222/73/IMG/NR022273.pdf?OpenElement

[KarlXII]

oops i meant 242....
ok, that was laughable, ill admit..

From 242:

"Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict"

Is Israel now just doing that?

From Wikipedia on the Gaza Embargo:

The United Nations Human Rights Council condemned Israel for the 15th time in less than two years on January 24, calling the blockade of the Gaza Strip collective punishment.[4] However, the proceedings were boycotted by Israel and the United States.

On March 7, 2008, several international aid groups, including Amnesty International, CARE International UK, and Oxfam, issued a report saying that the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip was more acute than at any time since the beginning of the Israeli occupation in 1967. They urged Israel to lift the blockade, characterizing it as collective punishment against the 1.5 million residents of the territory.[5]

I mean, hell, they had to blow up the wall to get food and supplies in Egypt

Though I'm sure your blind "Do No Wrong" admiration of Israel will not falter.

Hey, to fight the terrorists, you fight the people, it's all very simple!

[Incongruous]

No, no, no, don't you understand? This is a compromise? Israel has always been very moderate, and has always searched for peace. Just so long as the Palestinians ask for and recieve nothing.

[Koga No Goshi]

Hey Hooah,

This actually belongs kinda halfway between this thread, and the other thread by Bopa about Afghanistan. But here's Republican Bill Frist saying the same thing I said about solutions to guerilla warfare/insurgency:

http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/ap/2006/10/02/asia/AS_GEN_Afghanistan_Frist.php

And here's a snippet out of a very lengthy article in Mirriam-Webster Online Dictionary about terrorism:

Terrorism is often the last resort of the desperate. It can be, and has been, conducted by small as well as large organizations. Historically, groups may resort to terrorism when they believe all other avenues, including economics, protest, public appeal, and organized warfare, hold no hope of success (also see rioting). This suggests that perhaps one approach to combat terrorism is to ensure that in any case where there is a population feeling oppressed, that at least some avenue of gaining attention to problems is kept open, even if the population in question is in the minority on an opinion.

This is where some of us feel that Israel and by extension the west in general have perhaps not done as much as they could have to help diffuse the situation, instead of saying "yup security is paramount, screw a solution until we get enough security", which is a never ending recipe for violence IMHO.

[Tribesman]

Koga , from that article

The senators saw firsthand the legendary hostility to outsiders of tribal southern Afghanistan.
That is what the US army studies called the 4th phase of treatment of outsisders in the pashtun tribal cycle .
Its the you have not only outstayed your welcome but really pissed us off phase .:yes:

[Divinus Arma]

Imagine. :balloon2:

It would be the political event of our lifetime. I think even more eventful than the fall of the berlin wall.

[Hooahguy]

tribesman, your link doesnt work for me...

[Tribesman]

tribesman, your link doesnt work for me...
Thats OK , unless of course you really did want to read the resolution of the Southern Rhodesian situation .

[Jolt]

I have some questions to pose. How do you think Livni's popularity will go once the plan is wholly revealed? Do you think President Abbas might win the next Presidential elections backed up by this project? Do you think Hamas will accept any kind of commitment to make this deal work (Despite bad memories, something like another Coalition Government would be in order?)

I for one, think that the Palestinian territory should really be a contiguous one. Something like the southern half of Israel's Southern District, so that Palestine would be able to connect the West Bank to Gaza through sovereign territory. That's just my opinion though. Not going to happen.

[Tribesman]

How do you think Livni's popularity will go once the plan is wholly revealed?
I expect Livni will be the next poster child around parts of Israel ...the posters that offer a million shekels to whichever "patriot" kills the "traitor" to the Jewish race , sorry thats 1.1 million on the current posters , I am sure they would up the fee for Livni .

[Hooahguy]

I expect Livni will be the next poster child around parts of Israel ...the posters that offer a million shekels to whichever "patriot" kills the "traitor" to the Jewish race , sorry thats 1.1 million on the current posters , I am sure they would up the fee for Livni .
Judaism isnt a race... its a religion....:whip:

[Koga No Goshi]

Judaism isnt a race... its a religion....:whip:

Distinction without meaning really isn't it? When the Nazis or radical Muslims talk about killing Jews they're not just talking about practitioners of the religion right? They're talking about people with the lineage or last name.

[Tribesman]

Judaism isnt a race... its a religion....
Tell that to the nutters :2thumbsup:
BTW Hooah do you ever view the talkback/comment sections in the Israeli press ?
Lots of nutters there .:yes: Though not as many as on the sites Son of a Star used to use here .
But anyway to expand on the poster thing , what are your views on the increasing violence against ordinary Israelis and your military/police by the nutty zionsts ?

[Incongruous]

Judaism isnt a race... its a religion....:whip:

So if all Palestinians converted, would Israel then stop the opression?
If so, it shows the blatantly discriminatory nature of Israel, if not...
Well exactly the same thing actually.

[Koga No Goshi]

I've never in my life met anyone who practiced Judaism. But, I have met thousands of people who called themselves Jews, so.... you gotta explain it to them, first. ;)

[rory_20_uk]

I thought to practice Judaism you need to be a Jew, as otherwise you are a Gentile.

~:smoking:

[Strike For The South]

So if all Palestinians converted, would Israel then stop the opression?
If so, it shows the blatantly discriminatory nature of Israel, if not...
Well exactly the same thing actually.

Men who are so utterly convinced rarely offer real solutions

If you cant see this from both sides you cant understand the issue man. Vitriolic hate for one side is making you blind to the bigger picture

[Spino]

Dumb move. Giving back that land isn't going to solve anything. As I recall years ago when Ehud Barak was PM Israel offered to give up similar holdings but Arafat turned him down. This issue has moved far beyond the question of real estate. So long as Israel exists the fanatical element that wishes to destroy it as well as those wishing to exploit said element for their own political purposes will continue regardless of any accessions in land or reparations.

[Koga No Goshi]

Men who are so utterly convinced rarely offer real solutions

If you cant see this from both sides you cant understand the issue man. Vitriolic hate for one side is making you blind to the bigger picture

That's the thing thought Strike, given what the status quo looks like, endorsement of Israel and strong support of it and continuing foreign and military aid unconditionally and irrespective of their status with the Palestinians is, by default, vitriolic hate for one side. What's that old Elie Wiesel quote?

“I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”

[Hooahguy]

Dumb move. Giving back that land isn't going to solve anything. As I recall years ago when Ehud Barak was PM Israel offered to give up similar holdings but Arafat turned him down. This issue has moved far beyond the question of real estate. So long as Israel exists the fanatical element that wishes to destroy it as well as those wishing to exploit said element for their own political purposes will continue regardless of any accessions in land or reparations.
well said!

[Hooahguy]

I've never in my life met anyone who practiced Judaism. But, I have met thousands of people who called themselves Jews, so.... you gotta explain it to them, first. ;)
well, i do practice.... i guess im the first one youve met..... :beam:

[Hooahguy]

I thought to practice Judaism you need to be a Jew, as otherwise you are a Gentile.

~:smoking:
nope.

[Hooahguy]

Distinction without meaning really isn't it? When the Nazis or radical Muslims talk about killing Jews they're not just talking about practitioners of the religion right? They're talking about people with the lineage or last name.
the way i define "race" is how i would describe african americans or people with noticable differences. if we jews didnt wear a kippah (skullcap) or anthnig of the sort, you would not be able to tell who was jewish or not.. unless you pulled thieir pants down....
so no, were not a race

[Koga No Goshi]

the way i define "race" is how i would describe african americans or people with noticable differences. if we jews didnt wear a kippah (skullcap) or anthnig of the sort, you would not be able to tell who was jewish or not.. unless you pulled thieir pants down....
so no, were not a race

Race is socially constructed. There is no genetic "race" besides human that is meaningful. Just as people FIRMLY BELIEVED the Irish were not the same race as white, and later that Italians were not white, and today that people of Spanish origin from Latin American countries are not white, getting into the genetics of how there's no Jewish race is kind of silly. The Jews themselves call themselves Jewish, I know many American "Jews", who call themselves that in their own words. (They eat bacon though! *Eyebulge*) So if everyone else says there's a group called Jews and Jews say there's a group called Jews, it seems pretty universally agreed. ;)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Race is socially constructed.

Agreed. However, since our "reality" is largely a social construct enacted through communicative interaction, the issue of "race" is a salient one on a practical level. Identity being a driving need among pretty much everybody, the construct "race" has a profound influence.

[Incongruous]

Men who are so utterly convinced rarely offer real solutions

If you cant see this from both sides you cant understand the issue man. Vitriolic hate for one side is making you blind to the bigger picture

Vitriolic hate?
You mean the truth Strike? The truth of Aparthied and opression, of state enforced racism and terrorism?
Of your democracy being sidetracked because the West, that gaggle of spinless tossers, does not agree with YOUR decision?

Both sides? The bigger picture?
Give me something of substance Strike.

[rory_20_uk]

My point was that Judeism is not open to all comers in the same way that some religions are. I could start being a Christian or a Muslim and that's fine, but not a Hindu or Jew as both require one's parents to also be of the same religion.

~:smoking:

[Tribesman]

My point was that Judeism is not open to all comers in the same way that some religions are. I could start being a Christian or a Muslim and that's fine, but not a Hindu or Jew as both require one's parents to also be of the same religion.

No they don't , the provision is that to become recognised as Jewish you have to be a convert to the orthodox flavour , refromist and liberal don't count .
Then of course if your children become members of the reform flavour they remain jewish , even if they convert to pastafarianism they remain jewish because its a heredity thing . However you might be a leading rabbi in the reformist flavour , but if your wife isn't jewish then your children ain't jewish even if they follow the reformist flavour because the heredity thing follows the mothers line...unless of course they convert to orthadox in which case they become jewish .
Simple isn't it ?:help:

[rory_20_uk]

Thanks for the info Tribesman. :thumbsup:

~:smoking:

[Strike For The South]

Vitriolic hate?
You mean the truth Strike? The truth of Aparthied and opression, of state enforced racism and terrorism?
Of your democracy being sidetracked because the West, that gaggle of spinless tossers, does not agree with YOUR decision?

Both sides? The bigger picture?
Give me something of substance Strike.

Going into a crowded mall and blowing yourself up is terrorism. Frankly I dont give a piss about either group. The Americans use the Israelis like the other muslim states use the Palistiaens . They fight the battles we cant. Just because the Americans can give one side better toys does not mean the one with the crappier equipment and tech gets the "oppressed" tag. Americas support of Israel in reality has nothing to do with religion thats just something the power brokers tell the sheeple. Israel is Americas shield and they do a damn good job.

[Koga No Goshi]

Going into a crowded mall and blowing yourself up is terrorism. Frankly I dont give a piss about either group. The Americans use the Israelis like the other muslim states use the Palistiaens . They fight the battles we cant. Just because the Americans can give one side better toys does not mean the one with the crappier equipment and tech gets the "oppressed" tag. Americas support of Israel in reality has nothing to do with religion thats just something the power brokers tell the sheeple. Israel is Americas shield and they do a damn good job.

That is your opinion, Strike, but if you do not believe the Palestinians encounter anything which can be construed as oppressive, I have no idea what, if anything, you would ever call oppression. Black people before the Civil Rights Movement faced less in the U.S. than the Palestinians do today.

[Incongruous]

Going into a crowded mall and blowing yourself up is terrorism. Frankly I dont give a piss about either group. The Americans use the Israelis like the other muslim states use the Palistiaens . They fight the battles we cant. Just because the Americans can give one side better toys does not mean the one with the crappier equipment and tech gets the "oppressed" tag. Americas support of Israel in reality has nothing to do with religion thats just something the power brokers tell the sheeple. Israel is Americas shield and they do a damn good job.

Strike, I have already told you to go read something about Palestine and Israel, you clearly have not read anything worth your time.

Now I had thought that I had made perfectly clear that the Palestinians have had their land stolen, then a bit more later on, and now they are subjected to seeing the rest carved up between Israeli settlements. They are also denied the basic means to live my Israeli blockades, they are also subjected to continued air-strikes on their neighbourhoods.

As to your summary, that the Palestinians are only opressed because they are not funded by the U.S, thank you for once again illustrating your deep understanding of the issues.:yes:

[Strike For The South]

That is your opinion, Strike, but if you do not believe the Palestinians encounter anything which can be construed as oppressive, I have no idea what, if anything, you would ever call oppression. Black people before the Civil Rights Movement faced less in the U.S. than the Palestinians do today.


Strike, I have already told you to go read something about Palestine and Israel, you clearly have not read anything worth your time.

Now I had thought that I had made perfectly clear that the Palestinians have had their land stolen, then a bit more later on, and now they are subjected to seeing the rest carved up between Israeli settlements. They are also denied the basic means to live my Israeli blockades, they are also subjected to continued air-strikes on their neighbourhoods.

As to your summary, that the Palestinians are only opressed because they are not funded by the U.S, thank you for once again illustrating your deep understanding of the issues.:yes:

If they Palestinians were receiving funding from the US and not Egypt it would be much much different. These Israelis are nothing but a pawn and I also never said they didnt oppress the Palestinians. They just are better at killing people they hate. You make it sound like the Palestinians wouldn't hurt a fly if the shoe was on the other foot. Your self richeousness is rather amusing I'll give you that.

[Koga No Goshi]

If they Palestinians were receiving funding from the US and not Egypt it would be much much different. These Israelis are nothing but a pawn and I also never said they didnt oppress the Palestinians. They just are better at killing people they hate. You make it sound like the Palestinians wouldn't hurt a fly if the shoe was on the other foot. Your self richeousness is rather amusing I'll give you that.

No one said any such thing but somehow, Israelis being FAR from a people you could say "wouldn't hurt a fly" doesn't stop you or other people being okay with funding them and outfitting them with one of the most potent, modern militaries in the world for Israel's size. That's the difference. And the fact that we pay a high foreign policy price for unconditional support of Israel with absolutely no strings attached whatsoever in terms of having to make forward progress on recognition of Palestinian rights and statehood.

You claim you don't care about the issue that much Strike, that you don't have a vested interest in either side, and then you come in suddenly make these remarkably one-sided condemnations of the Palestinians as terrorists. Make up your mind, are you in or out of a discussion? Because this is rather pointless if it's just "eh I don't care that much about it but I'm kinda on Israel's side."

[Tribesman]

Going into a crowded mall and blowing yourself up is terrorism.
Not neccesarily , if the prices in the mall are outrageous it can be construed as a protest against exploitation , they do say after all that if the prices are too high make your voice felt , no one feels you voice more than when it says boom boom boom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnXc-XD62XA

[Incongruous]

If they Palestinians were receiving funding from the US and not Egypt it would be much much different. These Israelis are nothing but a pawn and I also never said they didnt oppress the Palestinians. They just are better at killing people they hate. You make it sound like the Palestinians wouldn't hurt a fly if the shoe was on the other foot. Your self richeousness is rather amusing I'll give you that.

Umm, ok...

Strike what are you talking about?
Do you dispute the crimes against humanityu that Israel has commited or something?
Do you even know what I am talking about Strike? Have you read anything other than an IHT or NYT article on the subject?

I don;t think i have made it out such a way. I realise that the Palestinians are killing Israeli's, but since they are the natives resisting the colonials, I support them.

I also take issue with people who wish to skirt the magnitude of Israeli crimes by saying that you cannot measure such things. Well those fancy Euro-weeny graphs sure do mean something Strike. They mean that the Palestinians are being killed on a scale infinately greater than the Israelis. They mean that the Palestinains are not given the means to live. Also, the Israelis simply by being the occupier, are gonna have to accept death as part of their illegal actions.

The Israeli's have never stopped waging war on the Palestinians, you need to realise that there are consequences for that. As the U.S gets weaker, which it surely is, Israel is gonna get it a lot tougher unless it withdraws to its UN borders and makes BIG reparations. Allows people to be tried by the ICC and apologises for crimes against humanity.

[Tribesman]

I realise that the Palestinians are killing Israeli's, but since they are the natives resisting the colonials, I support them.

And that is where you screw up .
When both sides are wrong you cannot really support one over the other , all you can do is point out the bollox that people spout when they support one or the other . As often it happens here the consensus is "Israel yeah:balloon2:" it can appear that the arguements are anti-Israeli when they are in fact anti-bollox

[Strike For The South]

No one said any such thing but somehow, Israelis being FAR from a people you could say "wouldn't hurt a fly" doesn't stop you or other people being okay with funding them and outfitting them with one of the most potent, modern militaries in the world for Israel's size. That's the difference. And the fact that we pay a high foreign policy price for unconditional support of Israel with absolutely no strings attached whatsoever in terms of having to make forward progress on recognition of Palestinian rights and statehood.

You claim you don't care about the issue that much Strike, that you don't have a vested interest in either side, and then you come in suddenly make these remarkably one-sided condemnations of the Palestinians as terrorists. Make up your mind, are you in or out of a discussion? Because this is rather pointless if it's just "eh I don't care that much about it but I'm kinda on Israel's side."


Umm, ok...

Strike what are you talking about?
Do you dispute the crimes against humanityu that Israel has commited or something?
Do you even know what I am talking about Strike? Have you read anything other than an IHT or NYT article on the subject?

I don;t think i have made it out such a way. I realise that the Palestinians are killing Israeli's, but since they are the natives resisting the colonials, I support them.

I also take issue with people who wish to skirt the magnitude of Israeli crimes by saying that you cannot measure such things. Well those fancy Euro-weeny graphs sure do mean something Strike. They mean that the Palestinians are being killed on a scale infinately greater than the Israelis. They mean that the Palestinains are not given the means to live. Also, the Israelis simply by being the occupier, are gonna have to accept death as part of their illegal actions.

The Israeli's have never stopped waging war on the Palestinians, you need to realise that there are consequences for that. As the U.S gets weaker, which it surely is, Israel is gonna get it a lot tougher unless it withdraws to its UN borders and makes BIG reparations. Allows people to be tried by the ICC and apologises for crimes against humanity.

I only support Israelis because of US interests. Not because i feel some calling to defend their actions. Once again The Palestinians die more because they cant match is Israeli spending thats not that hard to understand. We are far past the point where if the Israelis stopped killing today told them sorry and gave them a state it would be over just like that. We have two sides who due to misguided beliefs think that they have some inherent right to sand and coastline and no once can change their mind. Who was there first has no bearing on today and that kinda sucks but it just doesn't. So at the end of the day I will support the crazies who attack my enemy and who provide some counterweight in the mideast but If Israel was to be wiped off the map tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear. Good riddance to bad rubbish

[Koga No Goshi]

I only support Israelis because of US interests. Not because i feel some calling to defend their actions.

Then condemning Palestinian terrorism should not even enter the discussion, because if supporting them was in US interest we wouldn't be calling it terrorism. We have US interests in plenty of countries that employ terrorist tactics or brutal oppression, such as Saudi Arabia.

[Strike For The South]

Then condemning Palestinian terrorism should not even enter the discussion, because if supporting them was in US interest we wouldn't be calling it terrorism. We have US interests in plenty of countries that employ terrorist tactics or brutal oppression, such as Saudi Arabia.

Both sides use terrorism but Bopa seems to think the Palestinian kind is ok. Im just trying to point that out.

[Koga No Goshi]

Both sides use terrorism but Bopa seems to think the Palestinian kind is ok. Im just trying to point that out.

I disagree with him there. Palestinians have most certainly employed terrorism, well, more specifically, certain groups within them have. But it is true that group punishment against the whole of the Palestinian population in retaliation is unsupportable. And when Israel does things which kill just as many civilians it has a tendency to get called "defensive/security operations."

[Strike For The South]

I disagree with him there. Palestinians have most certainly employed terrorism, well, more specifically, certain groups within them have. But it is true that group punishment against the whole of the Palestinian population in retaliation is unsupportable. And when Israel does things which kill just as many civilians it has a tendency to get called "defensive/security operations."

Thats what happens when you have uniforms and money. I thought people knew this....

[Incongruous]

And that is where you screw up .
When both sides are wrong you cannot really support one over the other , all you can do is point out the bollox that people spout when they support one or the other . As often it happens here the consensus is "Israel yeah:balloon2:" it can appear that the arguements are anti-Israeli when they are in fact anti-bollox

But why is this a screw up?

I thought it was accepted logic that when you go and invade and opress a native people and take their land, you are going to get some bruises?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Then condemning Palestinian terrorism should not even enter the discussion, because if supporting them was in US interest we wouldn't be calling it terrorism. We have US interests in plenty of countries that employ terrorist tactics or brutal oppression, such as Saudi Arabia.

Answer me this: Why shouldn't a country do what is in its own best interests?

[Incongruous]

Answer me this: Why shouldn't a country do what is in its own best interests?

Sure it can, what Israel and the U.S are doing to the Palestinains is not in their own best interests. Israel is sowing the seedsof futher carnage upon its own people, the U.S is doing the same. Its absurd.

[Koga No Goshi]

Answer me this: Why shouldn't a country do what is in its own best interests?

International credibility and cooperation, and the lack of ill will around the world for hypocritical double standards, is very much relevant to one's best interests, especially in the case of foreign policy and terrorism.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

International credibility and cooperation, and the lack of ill will around the world for hypocritical double standards, is very much relevant to one's best interests, especially in the case of foreign policy and terrorism.


The international "hypocrisy club" has no dearth of members. Your point about long-term v short term thinking is a valid one, but double standards etc. are pretty well par for the course.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

International credibility and cooperation, and the lack of ill will around the world for hypocritical double standards, is very much relevant to one's best interests, especially in the case of foreign policy and terrorism.

Now the argument is not whether the nation is right to act within the best interests of the individual nation, but what those best interests are. Am I correct in presuming that you believe that the nation is right to act in its own best interests?

[Koga No Goshi]

Now the argument is not whether the nation is right to act within the best interests of the individual nation, but what those best interests are. Am I correct in presuming that you believe that the nation is right to act in its own best interests?

I wish you would stop asking that question, it feels like soft code for "why are you unpatriotic?" Of course nations can and should act in their own interests, but I think there are limits on that. For instance, it would be really nice to take over Costa Rica by force and make it a resort state like Hawaii. But I don't think we should do it. And certainly not with a halfcooked plan for the occupation.

The issue is not whether or not countries have a right to act in their interest, I disagree that the way we have responded, globally, to the threat of terrorism, has BEEN in our best interests. At all. Or even significantly diminished the root causes of terrorist motivation against us.

[Incongruous]

Now the argument is not whether the nation is right to act within the best interests of the individual nation, but what those best interests are. Am I correct in presuming that you believe that the nation is right to act in its own best interests?

Well that should be the first question, not the second. Once we discover what a nation's best interests are we may decide whether or not a nation would be right and justified in acting upon them
As Koga said, invading a nation to turn it into a resort cannot be justified or considered right.

[Koga No Goshi]

Well that should be the first question, not the second. Once we discover what a nation's best interests are we may decide whether or not a nation would be right and justified in acting upon them
As Koga said, invading a nation to turn it into a resort cannot be justified or considered right.

Yup, sorry Maniac, I'm not Machiavelli; not every possible conceivable action which would even fractionally "benefit" us in some way is something I would propose is a wise thing to actually do. Especially if it long-term sabotages us in other regards.

[Hooahguy]

International credibility and cooperation, and the lack of ill will around the world for hypocritical double standards, is very much relevant to one's best interests, especially in the case of foreign policy and terrorism.
hm..... i dont get it. i would much rather have the world think trash of me than not doing what was best for me and living because of it.
the amoiunt of PC in this world has gone waaaaaay overboard....

[Fragony]

Well that should be the first question, not the second. Once we discover what a nation's best interests are we may decide whether or not a nation would be right and justified in acting upon themtn
As Koga said, invading a nation to turn it into a resort cannot be justified or considered right.

Yes it can especially since said country nor it's people really exist. The palestinians just arabs that migrated nothing more, palestinians don't exist, and yes they can live everywhere there is enough desert for everyone but they just have to have that tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny little bit. If you compare that to shooting them I find shooting them very reasonable.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes it can especially since said country nor it's people really exist. The palestinians just arabs that migrated nothing more, palestinians don't exist, and yes they can live everywhere there is enough desert for everyone but they just have to have that tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny little bit. If you compare that to shooting them I find shooting them very reasonable.

Cool it there lad didnt most the Israeli people migrate there later than the local arab populace too by your reasoning we in Ireland should be looking for leprachauns under the table to hand over the place.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yup, sorry Maniac, I'm not Machiavelli; not every possible conceivable action which would even fractionally "benefit" us in some way is something I would propose is a wise thing to actually do. Especially if it long-term sabotages us in other regards.

I agree with that, but you can still argue endlessly on what is actually best.

[Kralizec]

Yes it can especially since said country nor it's people really exist. The palestinians just arabs that migrated nothing more, palestinians don't exist, and yes they can live everywhere there is enough desert for everyone but they just have to have that tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny little bit. If you compare that to shooting them I find shooting them very reasonable.

Ironically, I've seen people arguing that the expulsion of the Canaanites in ancient times wasn't ethnic cleansing because they weren't a "nation".

It's not only a nonsensical criterium, it's factually untrue in either case. I don't know where people got the idea from that "Arabic" is an overarching monolithic culture.

[Fragony]

Cool it there lad didnt most the Israeli people migrate there later than the local arab populace too by your reasoning we in Ireland should be looking for leprachauns under the table to hand over the place.

And the babylonians, the assyrians, just about everyone. Why can't the jews have that tiny little place and tiny it is just not tiny enough for some give them a break already. There is enough for everybody just because some psychotic warlord has conquered it hundreds of years ago doesn't mean there is any claim to be made, quite the opposite. If the muslims can't accept the existance of jews we shouldn't accept the existance of muslims, simple as that. The less die the better but why make that a goal when their goal is extermination. And make no mistake this is a religious conflict it has nothing to do with Israel but all with the jews being jewish even if Israel had never existed it would still be about the jews, in this situation they just happen to be there.

[Jolt]

And the babylonians, the assyrians, just about everyone. Why can't the jews have that tiny little place and tiny it is just not tiny enough for some give them a break already. There is enough for everybody just because some psychotic warlord has conquered it hundreds of years ago doesn't mean there is any claim to be made, quite the opposite. If the muslims can't accept the existance of jews we shouldn't accept the existance of muslims, simple as that. The less die the better but why make that a goal when their goal is extermination. And make no mistake this is a religious conflict it has nothing to do with Israel but all with the jews being jewish even if Israel had never existed it would still be about the jews, in this situation they just happen to be there.

I would give 50€ to see what happened if all of a sudden Israel was transferred to Holland. After all, Holand has a gigantic history on jews, and Dutch can always live in Germany and Flandern.

[gaelic cowboy]

And the babylonians, the assyrians, just about everyone. Why can't the jews have that tiny little place and tiny it is just not tiny enough for some give them a break already.

They were given a break they got a country back they had enemies they took there land which hadnt been granted to them and suddenly everyone is surprised when it all goes toxic very quickely.


There is enough for everybody just because some psychotic warlord has conquered it hundreds of years ago doesn't mean there is any claim to be made, quite the opposite. If the muslims can't accept the existance of jews we shouldn't accept the existance of muslims, simple as that.

Many Israeli claims are just that based on some warlord from early Jewish times



The less die the better but why make that a goal when their goal is extermination. And make no mistake this is a religious conflict it has nothing to do with Israel but all with the jews being jewish even if Israel had never existed it would still be about the jews, in this situation they just happen to be there.

Hmm and how do we solve conflict by talking and agreeing an acceptable bargain to all or at least try.

killing the terrorists makes good copy but it will solve hump all in the end.

[Fragony]

There are many whacked Israeli's but common, Palestinian kids are raised to hate jews, it's in their schools it's on the tv it's everywhere. What Israel does is dealing with it and I don't blame them.

[Strike For The South]

There are many whacked Israeli's but common, Palestinian kids are raised to hate jews, it's in their schools it's on the tv it's everywhere. What Israel does is dealing with it and I don't blame them.

:yes:..

[gaelic cowboy]

Irish people were raised to hate English people too you know or at least it seemed that way.
We committed attrocities against them then they did it to us in return very wise and seemingly sensible people said yes religon was the problem.

Then everyone copped on and sat down and had a chat and a stiff drink before signing an agreement.
I still live under that agreement so summit must have worked or else it would be gone long .

Today only extreme loons and actual terrorists hate English people seems like people must either only have pretended to hat English people or more likely it was a catchcry to differenciate ourselves from our oppressors.

Palestinians terror groups and political parties are run by the same type of people we had all any of these people want is to be allowed to hand out some of the sweeties that are available no doubt.
I imagine running an actual country with obligations soon cures people of fanciful notions.

[Fragony]

Israel isn't fighting over it's culture it is a struggle of being either dead or alive big difference. Palestinians are lucky, I wouldn't be quite as nice as the Israeli's have been enough is enough

[Jolt]

There are many whacked Israeli's but common, Palestinian kids are raised to hate jews, it's in their schools it's on the tv it's everywhere. What Israel does is dealing with it and I don't blame them.

:laugh4:

[Fragony]

:laugh4:

Don't choke on that one, one of the many examples, http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

[gaelic cowboy]

Israel isn't fighting over it's culture it is a struggle of being either dead or alive big difference. Palestinians are lucky, I wouldn't be quite as nice as the Israeli's have been enough is enough

All I am trying to say is everyone is gonna have to sit down eventually for real from where I sit there has been talk but no actual agreement that each side said yes i can live with this or at least tolerate it.

[gaelic cowboy]

Don't choke on that one, one of the many examples, http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

That really saddens me really I cant express enough anger at that clip :furious3:

However if thats the future better solve it now cos if thats what the next generation is been taught by their masters then it will only continue.

By trying to solve it now the toxic swamp that it breeds will be drained and maybe just maybe it will stop but it sure as hell wont stop with more killing.

[Tribesman]

That really saddens me really I cant express enough anger at that clip
Do any of them songs in that clip remind you of songs you learnt as a child Cowboy ?~;)

[Koga No Goshi]

hm..... i dont get it. i would much rather have the world think trash of me than not doing what was best for me and living because of it.
the amoiunt of PC in this world has gone waaaaaay overboard....

The amount of "P.C." in this world, as defined by some of the people in this thread, is what has prevented WWIII from having occurred yet.

If you believe any nation should do ANYTHING at all in its interests in any way, regardless of the cost to others, you propose what.. international anarchy? Why the heck should any of you care if Russia invades Georgia? Or Iraq invaded Kuwait? It was in their interests. You are basically advocating the very same actions you condemn in other countries.


There are many whacked Israeli's but common, Palestinian kids are raised to hate jews, it's in their schools it's on the tv it's everywhere. What Israel does is dealing with it and I don't blame them.

And what would schools in Holland be teaching if you were a politically unrecognized, uprooted from your land dependant population of Russia?

[Jolt]

Don't choke on that one, one of the many examples, http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

Point taken, that incites to radicalism from youth and those programs should be banned for life.

[Tribesman]

Ah well another quite day in Isreal , the police arresting rioting youths who are burning down Jewish peoples houses and business premesis while shouting death to Jews , the police have a slight problem as many of the youths arrested have to be released because they are too young to be detained or charged .
It certainly shows that them children over there can be very radicalised doesn't it .:yes:
I do hope Hooahguy isn't one of them rioting arab children celebrating their holiday in an interesting manner:eyebrows:

[Incongruous]

There are many whacked Israeli's but common, Palestinian kids are raised to hate jews, it's in their schools it's on the tv it's everywhere. What Israel does is dealing with it and I don't blame them.

You are so mssinformed about Palestinains Fragony its comical. Or at least it would be if it was not the prevailing view in the West, as attested by Strikes continuing show of in depth undrstanding.

As to your woderful little bit about the Arabs being immigrants, well lets see they have been lving there for well over one thousand years, some of them (the Bedouin) for many many more.

[Jolt]

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=24538

This goes to show that the violence is one sided isn't it? After all, arabs have no reason whatsoever to be angry don't they? (Heck, the news I just put may even be inside hoaahguy's criteria that "Arabs ruin everything" or that "Arabs are well treated in Israel")

[Hooahguy]

i never said the violence is one sided. indeed, ive heard storied of israelis throwing rocks and stuff at arabs. but not blowing themselves up in crowded arab markets....

[Koga No Goshi]

i never said the violence is one sided. indeed, ive heard storied of israelis throwing rocks and stuff at arabs. but not blowing themselves up in crowded arab markets....

Why would they need to do that when they have a state of the art military?

[Incongruous]

i never said the violence is one sided. indeed, ive heard storied of israelis throwing rocks and stuff at arabs. but not blowing themselves up in crowded arab markets....

Well, I reckon you know alot more than that hooaguy.

As Koga said, you dont need to blow yourself up, its easier just to blow up Palestinians when you have an airforce!

[Hooahguy]

ok, we dont indiscriminately strafe and bomb palestinians. we just dont. ok, the occasional shooting is bound to happen. there are trigger-happy morons on each side. but air-force bombings? no. not that i know of.

[Koga No Goshi]

ok, we dont indiscriminately strafe and bomb palestinians. we just dont. ok, the occasional shooting is bound to happen. there are trigger-happy morons on each side. but air-force bombings? no. not that i know of.

The point was, terrorism is a tactic of last resort when you have no chance of a military resolution and you are powerless. So saying "well Israel doesn't blow people up in malls" is comparing apples and oranges. No one says terrorism is a good thing. But it is an outcropping of the Palestinians, whether you feel they have justification or not, feeling helpless and unjustly treated and oppressed, and having no formal power over their condition.

[Hooahguy]

"last resort"
heck, we negotiated with their leaders for decades! all for naught, b/c one of the sides ends up breaking it. the problem is ever since '48, the palestinians have been pretty divided, so while one party says "peace with israel and we'll get a homeland" others say "kill them all!"
killing all of us isnt feasible, it just isnt. nor is having the west bank as a homeland for palestinians, since it has no access to the sea and no way of making a lot of money. israel makes its money mostly through tourism. whether the palestinians can unite to create a sustainable homeland is the question.

[Koga No Goshi]

"last resort"
heck, we negotiated with their leaders for decades! all for naught, b/c one of the sides ends up breaking it. the problem is ever since '48, the palestinians have been pretty divided, so while one party says "peace with israel and we'll get a homeland" others say "kill them all!"
killing all of us isnt feasible, it just isnt. nor is having the west bank as a homeland for palestinians, since it has no access to the sea and no way of making a lot of money. israel makes its money mostly through tourism. whether the palestinians can unite to create a sustainable homeland is the question.

Terrorism is not about rational pragmatism. It's about hurting the enemy who you feel is responsible for making your kids starve or lose limbs or get shot 50 times.

[Hooahguy]

so hurting the enemy is the best way to get what you want? not everyone, like the israelis, bend over to pressure so easily...

[Koga No Goshi]

so hurting the enemy is the best way to get what you want? not everyone, like the israelis, bend over to pressure so easily...

Sigh... didn't say that, did I? We're talking about this rationally. Stop interpreting everything as a defense of terrorism. We're simply trying to stay in the realm of what's real and why things are happening the way they are. And I was making general comments about the "psychology" involved as to why people may turn to terrorism.

As I've said before, hooah, Israel can be an armed hyperdefensive police state till armageddon... it's never going to reduce the level of hostility or desire to harm Israel as long as the conflict with the Arab people surrounding it, most especially Palestinians who get the worst of it, remains unresolved.

If Israel is serious about peace, then it should use its weight and voice and western backing to push shove cajole and insist upon some form of agreement, and make it happen. Not make feeble attempts, quickly give up and then blame the Palestinians for it. That doesn't help move a solution forward. I'm not saying that individual leaders of various Palestinian terrorist groups or organizations have been 100% earnest either. But I'm saying if Israel wants a solution, make one happen. They are the ones with the voice and the power and the world influence. It starts to sound like they are just using Palestinian disorganization as an excuse to avoid a resolution they might not really want anyway.

[Jolt]

but not blowing themselves up in crowded arab markets....

You see, curiously enough, Israeli's/Jews did commit massacres when they still didn't have their own country. Not only against Arabs but also against British authority, who dominated the territory in pretty much similar ways Israel dominates nowadays.

[Hooahguy]

We're simply trying to stay in the realm of what's real and why things are happening the way they are.
ya, i know. just because you blow up a bunch of things wont always make people do what you want them to do. its in the realm of realism...


As I've said before, hooah, Israel can be an armed hyperdefensive police state till armageddon... it's never going to reduce the level of hostility or desire to harm Israel as long as the conflict with the Arab people surrounding it, most especially Palestinians who get the worst of it, remains unresolved.
so what do you want them to do? evidently you want this whole conversation to go somehwere. i just dont know where.

[Koga No Goshi]

ya, i know. just because you blow up a bunch of things wont always make people do what you want them to do. its in the realm of realism...


so what do you want them to do? evidently you want this whole conversation to go somehwere. i just dont know where.

Well look at your responses. Whenever discussion of a resolution comes up, you immediately kneejerk spit out "the Palestinians ruined that one." And then you go right back to defending whatever Israel is doing.

Would you say that your mindset is fairly typical of Israelis and the Israeli government? Because if so, there is NO shock that a resolution seems far off and impossible.

[Incongruous]

"last resort"
heck, we negotiated with their leaders for decades! all for naught, b/c one of the sides ends up breaking it. the problem is ever since '48, the palestinians have been pretty divided, so while one party says "peace with israel and we'll get a homeland" others say "kill them all!"
killing all of us isnt feasible, it just isnt. nor is having the west bank as a homeland for palestinians, since it has no access to the sea and no way of making a lot of money. israel makes its money mostly through tourism. whether the palestinians can unite to create a sustainable homeland is the question.

No, no, no, its "we'll get back our homeland". Remember that one hooaguy, it is an important fact.

Now onto Israeli negotiations, it is, as I have said, go back to the U.N designated borders or you are taking the piss. Now Israel is tied very closely to the U.S, in fact the only reason Israel is not a complete cockup is because of the U.S. This would suggest that Israel makes its money through the U.S.

How long will this last hooaguy? The U.S is done and dusted, its over 10 trillion in debt, its armed forces have been proved inadequate to dominate the Midle East. What is Israel going to do?

Either get smart quick or watch the walls collapse.

[KarlXII]

Well look at your responses. Whenever discussion of a resolution comes up, you immediately kneejerk spit out "the Palestinians ruined that one." And then you go right back to defending whatever Israel is doing.

Would you say that your mindset is fairly typical of Israelis and the Israeli government? Because if so, there is NO shock that a resolution seems far off and impossible.

Are Palestinians the new scapegoats?

[gaelic cowboy]

Do any of them songs in that clip remind you of songs you learnt as a child Cowboy ?~;)

Cant tell at this hour too steamed boss but somehow I doubt even the IRA ever used mickey mouse although let me see

Oh will you stand in the band like a true Irish man, will you go and fight the forces of the crown.
Will stand with O'Neill on an Irish battle field, for tonight we go to free old Disneyland:beam:

[Tribesman]

ok, we dont indiscriminately strafe and bomb palestinians. we just dont. ok, the occasional shooting is bound to happen. there are trigger-happy morons on each side. but air-force bombings? no. not that i know of.

True they don't , they might make a declaration that there are no civilians so that they can claim that their bombing isn't bombing civilians , or they can be incredibly careless and blow up an entire block of apartments because they thought one man might be somewhere in the building .

[Hax]

israel makes its money mostly through tourism. whether the palestinians can unite to create a sustainable homeland is the question.

You mean; Israel makes most of its money through the USA.

[Incongruous]

You mean; Israel makes most of its money through the USA.

Israel is Disneyland Sandland.

[Jolt]

Israel is Disneyland Sandland.

e.g., Aladin's (Wait, I just realized the relation between the names Saladin and Aladin. Wierd I never noticed that before) land?

[Banquo's Ghost]

For those who believe that endless struggle is the only way, and the various factions involved beyond help, this heartfelt piece (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1028354.html) from Haaretz may prove rewarding.


I have decided to take on a jihad of my own. A New Years resolution, if you will. Eight years into this accused century and this benighted millennium, I want to make a new start. I want to root out the vengeance I feel as a resident of this region and this world.

May I learn to discern the real villains of this world, and counteract the epidemics of anger and hatred they spawn, propagate, and feed on. May I learn to delineate between those who must be fought and defeated, and those who despise them, but may look just like them.

:bow:

[Hooahguy]

well, considiering "Haaretz" is the most rabidly liberal newspaper in israel....
heck, i dont know what to say....
anyhow, theresn ot much furthur this thread can go.....

[Incongruous]

well, considiering "Haaretz" is the most rabidly liberal newspaper in israel....
heck, i dont know what to say....
anyhow, theresn ot much furthur this thread can go.....

Off topic how?
I and others were pointing out the continued application of bollocks by Israel to the isue of Palestine, good luck to you. I give it twenty years, then you will be practically begging the U.N for forgiveness and sending lots of gift rapped criminals to the ICC.

[Hooahguy]

ok, twenty years, if the world is still around by then... :dizzy2:

[Hax]

Don't worry. The world has been a lot worse stuff than Israel.

[Incongruous]

ok, twenty years, if the world is still around by then... :dizzy2:

You believe in that crazy right-wing christian crap, about the need for a Jewish state, just so God can judge all the sinners (Jews included) and send them all to hell?

I reck 20 years and Israel will be on its knees, you reckon the end of the world?
nuts!

[Hooahguy]

i meant that i think in 20 years the world will be in a nuclear war.... thats what i meant by the end of the world...

[Strike For The South]

i meant that i think in 20 years the world will be in a nuclear war.... thats what i meant by the end of the world...

I dont think we'll be that lucky.