Caning Pupils

[Rhyfelwyr]

A 'fifth of teachers back caning' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7649308.stm)

While I understand more discipline is needed at schools, this is not the answer. To be honest I would think an adult would have to be quite sick to want to hit a child.

Although on the one hand I do not think caning is an appropriate form of punishment, teachers do definetely need more powers to physically restrain pupils if they are being violent against others, or causing damage. It's got to a bit of a ridiculous stage these days, I've got a parent who's a primary school teacher and she can't even grab a pupil by the arm if he's running wild.

Any opinions on this?

[HoreTore]

Violence in any way or form can never, ever be accepted. Doing so is simply admittance of defeat and barbarism.

Adults use their words.

[Kadagar_AV]

In Sweden, we teachers have 0 (zero) rights to do.... anything...

When we tell a pupil to stop (insert whatever), we get the answer "What are you gonna do about it".

I do not believe caning is the answer... But , we need SOME tool.

Unless we believe the parents can raise the kids, and that is a joke.

[KarlXII]

Disregarding rules is not worthy of a caning. However, I do think if serious physical violence is being commited, the teacher should be allowed to stop it any means necessary. I'd rather see a student with a cane mark then a student in the hospital.

[HoreTore]

However, I do think if serious physical violence is being commited, the teacher should be allowed to stop it any means necessary. I'd rather see a student with a cane mark then a student in the hospital.

That's already covered by the law. It's perfectly legal to use a proportional amount of violence to defend yourself or others. This applies in every situation.

[Kadagar_AV]

Swedishfish, ok... So, imagine this scenario... A kid is pushing his bench against the wall, in a rythm... and is simultaneosly screaming about how he needs help...

This goes on and on and on...

Now... Do not get me wrong, I worked a teacher for 3 years, I get along with my students just FINE. However, In school we have all kinds of students, some of them will grow up to be mass murderers and so on.

So how do I handle a kid like this, if I have no means of physical restraining?

In real life, what happened was that I went back to my army education, lifted the kid up and pressed him against the wall, and whispered in his ear that I would make his life a hell for the next 3 years if he didnt get ahold of himself.

It worked.

However, IF he would have pressed charges I would have been :elephant::elephant::elephant:


four weeks later, one of our best teachers quit her job because she could not handle this kid.

Again, she was one of the BEST teachers.... all of the students LOVED her, except one....

but hey, one is enough... as the teacher have no means of sorting it out.

In my 3 years of working as teacher I have broken the law about 10 times, doing stuff I am not entitled to do, in order to straighten kids up.

I have made it so far, I am a VERY appreciated teacher.

However, I would wish that I dont have to fear a court whenever I set someone straight.

*Want another scenario, a kid fNOT from my class comes into my classroom and refuses to leave. What are you supposed to do? Call the principal? What I did: I used a self-defense move and lifted him out... I got credit for it from the class, i na court i would have lost my job and, maybe, sent to jail*

[Husar]

Adults use their words.

I'm sure you know those mothers who try to cry louder than their children to make them behave...for hours every day. And who later may even get hit by their own children. Parenting is nothing you learn at school, every child is different and some children want a slap in the face because words don't hurt them and they feel like the boss as long as you just talk. And no I still don't advocate breaking their jaw bones, that's something entirely different.

[Koga No Goshi]

I do not believe a teacher slapping, body slamming or otherwise physically intimidating a student will fix the problem. If you have kids that will not listen to authority, there is a problem going beyond "he hasn't been slapped enough by the teacher." A lot of the problem in the U.S. is culture-wide; parents no longer back up teachers. Know what teachers get when they inform a parent about a student's unacceptable behavior in the classroom? They get "who the hell are you to talk about my kid like that, look at you, you're a teacher. How much do you make? I'm an executive analyst for such and such, why the hell should my kid listen to you?"

They get that a LOT. If students actually feared more what their parents would have to say about their behavior in class, like "old timers" talk about, things wouldn't be this bad. But parents rarely back up teachers, especially if the teacher has in any way "embarrassed" their kid with a scolding.

[Lemur]

I think there should be an obvious exception to any "no caning" rule, and that should be for nubile, 18-year-old girls who have just been caught doing something naughty, such as flashing their undergarments at the young, hunky teacher. In which case they should be caned in slow motion for a relatively brief period, after which they should be punished in some other manner to be determined by the hunky teacher.

Here is clear evidence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxsuJd2IToE) of the appropriateness of this scenario.

[Koga No Goshi]

I think there should be an obvious exception to any "no caning" rule, and that should be for nubile, 18-year-old girls who have just been caught doing something naughty, such as flashing their undergarments at the young, hunky teacher. In which case they should be caned in slow motion for a relatively brief period, after which they should be punished in some other manner to be determined by the hunky teacher.

I think I saw this movie once at a bachel

nevermind.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Adults use their words.

And children do not listen. Honestly, I've got nothing against a caning when used as a final form of punishment - say if the teacher warns the student verbally, the teacher complains to the principal, and the parents receive a letter from the teacher. If the problem is not fixed by then, the teacher should have the option. Of course, if an alternative solution is found that actually works, I would be delighted to hear it.

[KukriKhan]

Violence in any way or form can never, ever be accepted. Doing so is simply admittance of defeat and barbarism.

Adults use their words.

I agree. I think.

Please define, for the benefit of teachers and parents: 'Violence'.

[Koga No Goshi]

And children do not listen. Honestly, I've got nothing against a caning when used as a final form of punishment - say if the teacher warns the student verbally, the teacher complains to the principal, and the parents receive a letter from the teacher. If the problem is not fixed by then, the teacher should have the option. Of course, if an alternative solution is found that actually works, I would be delighted to hear it.

How about creating a class of um, dunno what to call it. Infraction? Formal disciplinary action? Which remains permanently on a record, is sent to colleges along with transcripts, etc.?

Granted, some students still aren't going to care-- but I bet you the parents will in many cases. I don't think any solution discussion can be meaningful without addressing the issue that, ultimately, this is a problem with parents. Not with classroom regulations. It's parents giving lip and attitude for some stupid rear-end teacher having the NERVE to say anything to "my kid." I mean if they had half a brain they wouldn't be teaching in the first place.

[HoreTore]

I'm sure you know those mothers who try to cry louder than their children to make them behave...for hours every day. And who later may even get hit by their own children. Parenting is nothing you learn at school, every child is different and some children want a slap in the face because words don't hurt them and they feel like the boss as long as you just talk. And no I still don't advocate breaking their jaw bones, that's something entirely different.


And children do not listen. Honestly, I've got nothing against a caning when used as a final form of punishment - say if the teacher warns the student verbally, the teacher complains to the principal, and the parents receive a letter from the teacher. If the problem is not fixed by then, the teacher should have the option. Of course, if an alternative solution is found that actually works, I would be delighted to hear it.

Haven't you people watched the Nanny shows? How many times does she yell at or hit the kids? ~;)
And most of those kids are absolute terrors too... Face it, the old way of "hitting the lil bastard till it shuts up" is obsolete and retarded.


I agree. I think.

Please define, for the benefit of teachers and parents: 'Violence'.

Hitting them, showing them, etc etc... Basically, the illegal stuff.

To put this thing into another perspective; would you accept that your boss has permission to hit you at work? If not, why should children have to endure it?

Gah, students should grow some bloody spines and form a union. It's badly needed...

[Fragony]

Just kick them from school, if they don't want to swim let them drown. Kids who want to make something out of their life will thank you for it.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Haven't you people watched the Nanny shows? How many times does she yell at or hit the kids? ~;)
And most of those kids are absolute terrors too... Face it, the old way of "hitting the lil bastard till it shuts up" is obsolete and retarded.

Those children are also usually very young, certainly not teenagers or even usually elementary school. The same things do not work. Most people mature as they grow older, I grant you, but the strap or the cane can still be used effectively. Certainly the teacher will have more authority in the classroom. You don't need to hit the child because he won't shut up, but after other options have been exhausted, and the student hasn't learned, the cane should be an option. Nobody (well, very few) wants to be caned, and students will learn to respect the rules.


How about creating a class of um, dunno what to call it. Infraction? Formal disciplinary action? Which remains permanently on a record, is sent to colleges along with transcripts, etc.?

The student still doesn't care, and if the student is this out of hand, the parent in many cases refuses to acknowledge that their little angel is causing trouble.


Granted, some students still aren't going to care-- but I bet you the parents will in many cases.

From personal experiences, the students causing most of the trouble generally are not top quality academic material. Many of them will not go to universities.


I don't think any solution discussion can be meaningful without addressing the issue that, ultimately, this is a problem with parents. Not with classroom regulations. It's parents giving lip and attitude for some stupid rear-end teacher having the NERVE to say anything to "my kid." I mean if they had half a brain they wouldn't be teaching in the first place.

You have an fairly good point here - many parents certainly need a lesson in manners and the ability to listen to someone who says that their child isn't perfect.


Just kick them from school, if they don't want to swim let them drown. Kids who want to make something out of their life will thank you for it.

That is a potential solution.

[Koga No Goshi]

I guess I can't think of a good solution. I do think the problem is social, I think teaching is a spit-upon job and people treat it with the same amount of respect as the pay. And I think as long as that's the case you're going to have parents self-convinced that they know more than any stupid teacher with their crap job and low pay, and openly air that opinion regularly in front of their kids. And go to bat for them if the school calls said parent in, and tell off the teacher or the principal or both. Or file a lawsuit.

I think the best thing we could do long term would be to raise the public opinion of teachers. Paying them more would be a start, but the profession has no real respect. Everyone gives lip service to it just like with soldiers, but in truth, there are few parents not constantly backseat driving the classroom and thinking they always know the better way to be a teacher, or feel aggrieved that their kid is stuck with such a crappy one. Yet of course none of those people are going to leave their $80,000/year job to become a $48,000/year teacher themselves.

I witnessed relatively few SERIOUS disciplinary problems in the classroom that the teacher couldn't talk their way through. But I think watching a teacher assault a student wouldn't have created a better classroom environment than I had, honestly.

[Brenus]

Nobody speaks of COMPULSARY cane.
In France, physical punishment were NEVER allowed, or perhaps in the 1880s.
However discipline was imposed and respected. Then something happened but it was a society thing, not espacially inner school system.

[PanzerJaeger]

There's nothing wrong with physical punishment conducted in a controlled manner. The damaging psycological effects come in to play when children see adults lose control.

[Koga No Goshi]

There's nothing wrong with physical punishment conducted in a controlled manner. The damaging psycological effects come in to play when children see adults lose control.

I think that's the problem, how you would regulate or enforce that distinction. I mean, what teacher would be running for the cane when they WEREN'T practically losing control?

[HoreTore]

Those children are also usually very young, certainly not teenagers or even usually elementary school. The same things do not work. Most people mature as they grow older, I grant you, but the strap or the cane can still be used effectively. Certainly the teacher will have more authority in the classroom. You don't need to hit the child because he won't shut up, but after other options have been exhausted, and the student hasn't learned, the cane should be an option. Nobody (well, very few) wants to be caned, and students will learn to respect the rules.

This is barbarism, plain and simple. I thought we had evolved beyond the need to beat up those who won't listen :no:

The things who work on toddlers won't work on teenagers, yes, but beating a kid should never be an option. There are other ways. The situation where "nothing but beating them would work" simply does not exist.

The bottom line is, I do not wish to live in a society where violence is an accepted way to make people behave. That's why I haven't moved to Iran.

[Fragony]

However discipline was imposed and respected. Then something happened but it was a society thing, not espacially inner school system.

Ya. So kindly allow them to make a faceplant can't all be rocket-scientists someone has to mob the floor, kicked out of school because of bad behaviour: no welfare, have a nice starvation or work till you drop at the assembly-line. Don't want an education, fine, worst mistake you will ever make but I am all for the very basic human-right to go down as you please. Time they start apreciating what they get.

[InsaneApache]

I was canned a lot at school in the 70s. Mainly for smoking and fistfights. :embarassed:

It didn't stop me misbehaving, in fact there was a kudos in getting 'six of the best' amongst my peers. The important thing was not to cry. It bloody hurt though. When I lived in Scotland the teachers, unlike in England, all had straps they carried around, administering punishments to the hands when they saw fit.

Did I deserve it? At the time yes. I was a little bugger when I was 13-15 YO and a real handful for my teachers.

Now what did work was 'quad' or detention if you like. That really bit into my free time. After I'd done my detention, got home and finished my homework, it was too late to go out with my mates making mischief. So a double winner for the authorities.

Should they bring back the cane? Yes. Some kids just can't be reasoned with and it should be the ultimate sanction.

Thrash the living daylights out of 'em. You know it makes sense. :wink:

[Louis VI the Fat]

the strap or the cane can still be used effectively. Certainly the teacher will have more authority in the classroom.

students will learn to respect the rules. The bottom line is, I do not wish to live in a society where violence is an accepted way to make people behave. That's why I haven't moved to Iran.My bottom line is, I do not want to live in an authoritarian society like EMFM outlined above. I don't want schools to be about teaching authority and rules.

My teachers impress me with their knowledge, not with their cane. I impress my teachers with my learning prowess, not with my readiness to obey orders.


However, then 'something happened in society', to quote Brenus. I think teachers need police protection in schools nowadays. :shame:

[naut]

My teachers impress me with their knowledge, not with their cane. I impress my teachers with my learning prowess, not with my readiness to obey orders.
:bow:

Edit: On a tangent, but I thought the title said Caning Puppies at first. :dizzy:

[rory_20_uk]

All pupils are entitled to schooling. If this were not the case, then suspension or heaven forbid expulsion would be a disaster - a massively reduced chance of a comfortable life.

There's no problem with the kids that brown nose the teachers with how clever they are, and how quickly they learn and are similarly orgastically excited by the teacher's brilliance. The difficulty is the other end of the spectrum.

And yes, you obey the orders.

I appreciate that children well brought up with discipline from an early age are unlikely to require any form of corporal punishment. But you can't go back 10 years and teachers are stuck with what comes in through the door.

Assuming they can't be expelled for good there are some that answer "or what?" to ripping up textbooks, smoking in class or just disrupting the lessons for all. A stern reprimand from the principal? Well, the magistrate didn't manage to achieve anything, so why will they?

There is a massive difference between a teacher lashing out with a cane or whatever and coldly informing the child that they'll be punished next morning in assembly for the infraction.

~:smoking:

[Rhyfelwyr]

My problem isn't with being too authoritarian, I just can't see how an adult could bring themselves to hit a child. And if we're talking about secondary school and teenagers, then as IA said the pain won't bother them so much and they would be much less happy with a detention and losing their free time.

[Strike For The South]

Ha, no. If we re-instituted canning today there will be many teachers in the hospital tomorrow. Canning a 17 year old is just asking for trouble. ESP in todays day age. The respect just isnt there

[rory_20_uk]

My problem isn't with being too authoritarian, I just can't see how an adult could bring themselves to hit a child. And if we're talking about secondary school and teenagers, then as IA said the pain won't bother them so much and they would be much less happy with a detention and losing their free time.

Who said they'd still not get a detention?

I've seen babies have needles stuck in them for what is believed to be their own good. Hitting children is merely something in their long term best interests, lest they join the deaths from teen on teen knife crime - that's where a complete failure of violence in a disciplined setting ends.

~:smoking:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

My bottom line is, I do not want to live in an authoritarian society like EMFM outlined above. I don't want schools to be about teaching authority and rules.


In school, you follow the rules. Many students do not. It has nothing to do with authoritarian society, it has everything to do with respecting the teacher. The cane does not have to come out unless the student makes it come out, plain and simple.


This is barbarism, plain and simple. I thought we had evolved beyond the need to beat up those who won't listen :no:

The things who work on toddlers won't work on teenagers, yes, but beating a kid should never be an option. There are other ways. The situation where "nothing but beating them would work" simply does not exist.

The bottom line is, I do not wish to live in a society where violence is an accepted way to make people behave. That's why I haven't moved to Iran.

If you can think of a better way that works, by all means tell me. Otherwise, I see little problem with a controlled caning.


I think that's the problem, how you would regulate or enforce that distinction. I mean, what teacher would be running for the cane when they WEREN'T practically losing control?

Train them to go about it calmly and with a neutral expression, and not to say anything to the student except to tell them what they did, in a calm and rational manner.


All pupils are entitled to schooling. If this were not the case, then suspension or heaven forbid expulsion would be a disaster - a massively reduced chance of a comfortable life.

There's no problem with the kids that brown nose the teachers with how clever they are, and how quickly they learn and are similarly orgastically excited by the teacher's brilliance. The difficulty is the other end of the spectrum.

And yes, you obey the orders.

I appreciate that children well brought up with discipline from an early age are unlikely to require any form of corporal punishment. But you can't go back 10 years and teachers are stuck with what comes in through the door.

Assuming they can't be expelled for good there are some that answer "or what?" to ripping up textbooks, smoking in class or just disrupting the lessons for all. A stern reprimand from the principal? Well, the magistrate didn't manage to achieve anything, so why will they?

There is a massive difference between a teacher lashing out with a cane or whatever and coldly informing the child that they'll be punished next morning in assembly for the infraction.

Good post.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Send the little social misfits on a student exchange program to Singapore. They still know the value of a rattan in getting the undivided attention of a miscreant. ~;) The "cultural epiphany" will do little Johnny smarty pants a world of good.

[LittleGrizzly]

Like SFTS said, caning today would be a bad idea, i can't imagine how many feel the same way i do but no teacher would have ever got away with caning me, whether i had done something bad or not, i would have straight away reacted if a teacher tried to hit me...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Like SFTS said, caning today would be a bad idea, i can't imagine how many feel the same way i do but no teacher would have ever got away with caning me, whether i had done something bad or not, i would have straight away reacted if a teacher tried to hit me...

Then the child gets, I don't know, thrown out or something. That'll be interesting.

The caning doesn't have to be brutal, the child doesn't have to be thrashed or anything, just taught a cold lesson.

[Strike For The South]

Then the child gets, I don't know, thrown out or something. That'll be interesting.

The caning doesn't have to be brutal, the child doesn't have to be thrashed or anything, just taught a cold lesson.

and said teacher would be stabbed. Applying 1950s standards to today doesn't work my friend

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

and said teacher would be stabbed. Applying 1950s standards to today doesn't work my friend

Then search the students entering the school. Whatever. But the authority of the teacher must be enforced.

[Strike For The South]

Then search the students entering the school. Whatever. But the authority of the teacher must be enforced.

That doesn't work. Authority is not only derived from physical means especially when it is being used on someone who is nearly full grown.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That doesn't work. Authority is not only derived from physical means especially when it is being used on someone who is nearly full grown.

Well, what we're doing now clearly isn't working.

[Strike For The South]

Well, what we're doing now clearly isn't working.

At my public American High School Over four years I witnessed very few incidents where a teacher and a student argued and even then the climate of the classroom was very much against said student. If the teacher had hit the student the feeling would've changed mind you. This is all about how the parents raise the child. I really dont know of to many student uprisings but then agian I live in Texas where respect is still taught to children to where we dont even need to speak of these barbaric methods.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

At my public American High School Over four years I witnessed very few incidents where a teacher and a student argued and even then the climate of the classroom was very much against said student. If the teacher had hit the student the feeling would've changed mind you. This is all about how the parents raise the child. I really dont know of to many student uprisings but then agian I live in Texas where respect is still taught to children to where we dont even need to speak of these barbaric methods.

Where I went to school, the vast majority were generally fairly polite, at least to the teacher, and few did anything that could warrant a caning. However, for those few, I believe it should be an option.

[Strike For The South]

Where I went to school, the vast majority were generally fairly polite, at least to the teacher, and few did anything that could warrant a caning. However, for those few, I believe it should be an option.

Its nothing but an archaic practice and has no place in modern schooling

[Koga No Goshi]

Does anyone even HAVE a horror story that would warrant something like a caning? I never saw anything that bad in school. Even when it approached that bad the student would just be walked to the Principal's office. Problem solved.

[Fragony]

Does anyone even HAVE a horror story that would warrant something like a caning? I never saw anything that bad in school. Even when it approached that bad the student would just be walked to the Principal's office. Problem solved.

Not me. I think it is a really bad idea, but it does happen that a teacher has a severe lack of respect forcing the pupil to call his bothers who apparently have all the time in the world to be giving the teacher a crashcourse in cultural sensitivities. For those an education is really pears for swines as we call it, with such behaviour you really disqualify yourselve in my opinion, out, bye. No caning that is a waste of energy, F for Fail from now on you are on your own.

[Rob The Bastard]

At the most basic level an adults's world is confined by threats.

Social mores, the law etc.

In general, they restrain the strong and protect the weak. Punishment is what is meant to happen if the threat is ignored. Adults choose to acknowledge the threat and live within the constraints they place on us either because the punishent is to great or we need the protection, from others, that we gain from them. It is the will of our societies that this is so.

What is needed is a threat that works for the child/teenager that does not respond to the threats that the teacher is using.

The biggest problem is that they are not adults... being reasonable is not natural for them.

The laws protect... and the threats do not compel submission to the teachers will.

[rory_20_uk]

I disagree that most teenagers and many younger than that can understand the concept of threats. It doesn't suddenly happen that at 18 one's eyes are opened and you are aware of these things. 5 year olds display that they are aware when they do things wrong.

There used to be National Service which was a great way of getting the kinks out of those with the "or what" attitude: if you really want to see what it takes to break you, then continue to play up.

That anyone can say that a teacher would get stabbed shows that where the children is has stopped being a school many years ago.

Until the parents are on side the Teacher is in a very tough position. Until the parents value the service the teacher provides there will be those that don't value the teacher. Permanent exclusions will increase the perceived power of the teacher, and for those who'se parents still remain oblivious to the benefits of education or are too deranged to care, well, the further they're kept away from society the better.

~:smoking:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Does anyone even HAVE a horror story that would warrant something like a caning? I never saw anything that bad in school. Even when it approached that bad the student would just be walked to the Principal's office. Problem solved.

It doesn't have to be a horror story. There were, in my school, examples of such extreme insolence that I would have not objected to caning the student myself.

[HoreTore]

It doesn't have to be a horror story. There were, in my school, examples of such extreme insolence that I would have not objected to caning the student myself.

I'm very happy that authoritarians like yourself isn't in charge here, and that those who are in charge have a number of very different solutions.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I'm very happy that authoritarians like yourself isn't in charge here, and that those who are in charge have a number of very different solutions.

A libertarian school? That's a new one. A school is meant to be authoritarian - the teachers have to exercise control over the pupils.

[rotorgun]

As a suggestion to all parents and future parents who have children in school or will have....don't put the teacher in the position of doing what is clearly your job. Disciplining an unruly student in class should never involve such violence. If a student still refuses to behave after all of the normal methods of persuasion have been tried, then it is up to the parents to see that their child complies.

That being said...my parents usually took care of any corporal punishment if I acted out disrespectfully towards any teacher. I have survived, and if I may say so am probably better off for such "violent" sessions. I have even expressed my thankfulness to my father recently for doing so when I needed such reminders.

Take charge Mom and Dad!