China world power or not?

[Upxl]

Last vacation some friends of mine (myself included) were having a rather heated discussion about this.
We where wise enough not to start that discussion again, this went fine till yesterday.

My friend and me claimed that China has a vast amount of power almost or equal to that of a superpower like the US.
Economical, military, populous, influence on world diplomacy,…
So by these reasons we claimed that China is in fact a superpower.

The opposing party (a teacher :book: ) said that they cant be counted as a world power for the simple reason that they don’t have a steady and secure nation and the large possibility that this nation will in fact collapse.
Due to the many ethnic minorities in China who don’t want to be Chinese but rather live autonomous, so revolts are bound to happen.
For this reason it’s not stable so not a superpower.
This is what she learned while studying history in college.
As i understood it where these the words of one single professor.
China is not and never will be a superpower is what the man claimed.

So what do you guys think of this and motivation why?

[Lord Winter]

You can't deny the fact that China does not only have a large millitary but also has a vibrent econemy and is begaiing to step into world diplomacy. Sying that Chinia won't be a world power because of its minorities is like saying the Soviet Union never was because it also had a lot of ethnic minorities that wanted indpendence.

[Fragony]

The opposing party (a teacher :book: ) said that they cant be counted as a world power for the simple reason that they don’t have a steady and secure nation and the large possibility that this nation will in fact collapse.


I am with him, it's a disaster in the making. China is overstretching economically of what it can deliver socially, and it is a country that got burned with the idea of communism, it is going to have some crazy times.

[Marshal Murat]

It is a superpower. Whether it's sustainable is irrelevant. A pot is a pot until it gets a hole. Then it's collinder.

[Gregoshi]

Then it's collinder.
That would strain our releationship with them for sure.

I do agree that China is a superpower. It always bothered me that after the fall of the Soviet Union, you'd here people saying that the US is the only superpower.

[KarlXII]

My friend and me claimed that China has a vast amount of power almost or equal to that of a superpower like the US.

But we have the advantage of power projection, China may have a lot of men, but this factor can be negated if they cannot project this power.



Economical, military, populous, influence on world diplomacy,…

How is China influencing the world stage?



The opposing party (a teacher :book: ) said that they cant be counted as a world power for the simple reason that they don’t have a steady and secure nation and the large possibility that this nation will in fact collapse.

And he's right. China cannot hope to be a power unless it can recieve a wide amount of support with it's populace.


Due to the many ethnic minorities in China who don’t want to be Chinese but rather live autonomous, so revolts are bound to happen.

I don't know what you mean by this, it seems student riots are more common than nationalistic ones.

[rory_20_uk]

America is one, although has debts almost to the point of causing economic collapse, is addicted to oil from the very places it states it detests and is unable to win wars against very weak countries.

China's main deficiencies are the lack of a blue sea fleet, but it is correcting this quickly.

China is managing its explosion of economic matters better than America is managing its implosion.

Ethnic minorities? There's a fair amount of ethnic problems in America.

~:smoking:

[Quintus.JC]

China is already a superpower. The ethic minorities will never get their indepence, the living standard there is still not as good as some of the Western countries but that does not stop them from being a Superpower, it never stopped the Soviets.

[Fragony]

I don't know what you mean by this, it seems student riots are more common than nationalistic ones.

China's 'wild west', the big unknown. Some people forget that China actually has a border with Afghanistan, and the problems of that region are China's problems as well.

[KarlXII]

China's 'wild west', the big unknown. Some people forget that China actually has a border with Afghanistan, and the problems of that region are China's problems as well.

China has a border with Afghanistan?

*Runs to check globe*

[rory_20_uk]

If they decided to mess with the Chinese, there would not be arm wringing, nor concerns about diplomacy, merely a crushing fist coming down both sides of the border.

Casualties in the thousands would be acceptable for both the Military, the Insurgents and the Locals as far as the Chinese government is concerned. If razing a zone 2 miles deep, using a minefield and shelling anything that moves in the zone, I imagine it would slowly and deliberately be constructed.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

China has a border with Afghanistan?

*Runs to check globe*

A lot goes on we never hear about, my maid is from there (well close). The west of China is a mess really, but nothing comes out. As far as I have understood things aren't going very well there.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Is China a world power?

Let me answer that by pointing to Africa. In the last decade, China has moved more people and capital into Africa than France did in a century of colonisation. The French, British, Portuguese and Arab spheres of influences have been completely overrun, at a pace that's simply astonishing.



I have never understood this 'China will collapse because of ethnic tension' argument. The first thing that strikes me about China, is that it is such a homogenous country. It's not a country, but a continent, and yet, 80% is etnically, linguistically and religously pretty much homogenous. They don't even share a whole lot of surnames between them. 200 million 'Lee's' alone. Amazing. Try that in India, Europe or Africa.
Several large, yet sparsely populated Western provinces are different, that's all.

China is not a world power. China is the world, and it's surrounded by a ring of tiny and short-lived civilisations like the Americas, Europeans, Mongols, Moghuls, Indians, Franks, Romans, Japanese, Koreans.

[Fragony]

Nah, China has no internal market it's an export nation, the country will not be able to keep up with it's economy.

[TevashSzat]

China's 'wild west', the big unknown. Some people forget that China actually has a border with Afghanistan, and the problems of that region are China's problems as well.

The reason that these ethnic minorities aren't that powerful is that their opinion are of the minority. The activists/Tibetians/ffalun gong get alot of press, but the vast majority of average Chinese citizens consider them as rabblerousers who are just out there to make trouble so they will never get any real traction in producing change or unrest unless the Communist party start making some seriously huge mistakes like a Chinese Great Depression or something

[KukriKhan]

China is not a world power. China is the world, and it's surrounded by a ring of tiny and short-lived civilisations like the Americas, Europeans, Mongols, Moghuls, Indians, Franks, Romans, Japanese, Koreans.

LOL. It must certainly seem so from Peking; buncha johnny-come-lately's. :laugh4:

For me: anybody who has nukes is a world power. Pop one off, and the rest of the world instantly pays close attention, and everything we thought we knew, changes; economy, military, politics... everything.

So, yeah: China = world power.

[Fragony]

The reason that these ethnic minorities aren't that powerful is that their opinion are of the minority. The activists/Tibetians/ffalun gong get alot of press, but the vast majority of average Chinese citizens consider them as rabblerousers who are just out there to make trouble so they will never get any real traction in producing change or unrest unless the Communist party start making some seriously huge mistakes like a Chinese Great Depression or something

Well that is comming, cheap labour is already moving, no internal market, Africa just happens to be what it is, west is shrinking which is their market. China has a problem.

[DemonArchangel]

It's a Chinese world.

The rest of you just live in it.

[Gregoshi]

I'm making shrimp fried rice for dinner tonight.

[Redleg]

China is a world power in every sense of the word. They have the current manufacturing facialities that produce a good percentage of the goods consumed not only by the United States but much of the world. It has been increasing its economic and political influence in Africa and is the regions primary power for Asia.

Now if your asking if its a Superpower, it still has a bit to go - not much, power projection outside of its normal sphere of influence is being developed and most likely will happen in the next 5 to 10 years, to a level that they can do what they want for the most part.

In every other way its very close to reaching Superpower status, if it can survive the economic crisis that the United States is fast developing (and hopefully can stop, but I doubt it with our incompentent politicians and the corruption that has insued), China will most likely be a super power along with the United States and a re-emerging Russia (if these two nations survive). It is possible that China could be the sole super power in 10 years given the economic decline of the United States.

[JR-]

china is a superpower, but how long it can remain one without some glorious technological leaps is another question.

it has a large military budget, probably the esecond biggest in the world, but it needs fantastic reduction at the same time as massive investment if it is to become a force capable of projecting power beyond its own contiguous borders.

it is a massive economic power, but it too will suffer massively from resource strangulation necessary to feeds its continued growth, and the more raw materials appreciate the less competitive chinese goods will be.

it has the largest population in the world which gives it massive potential, but as a result of the one child policy it will be lumbered with half a billion pensioners in a generations time in what is still effectively a third world country.

it is an economic powerhouse that will continue to rise faster than the G8 group for at least a generation, but this comes at the cost of a devastated environment the amelioration of which will consume at least half og that growth in the next 100 years.

its diplomatic clout is huge as a result of its economic potential which ha given it the jump over G8 countries on resource agreements with third world countries, but how long before its moral-free expansion is viewed by the third world in much the same way as the belgium congo of years past.

its biggest problem is all of the above, because its ability to keep the lid on an authoritarian state derives solely on its ability to bring its people unrelentingly out of medieval poverty, when that slows, and when enough people reach a stage which might be called bourgeois, the authoritarian chinese governement will face a crisis it won't beat.

[Sarmatian]

its biggest problem is all of the above, because its ability to keep the lid on an authoritarian state derives solely on its ability to bring its people unrelentingly out of medieval poverty, when that slows, and when enough people reach a stage which might be called bourgeois, the authoritarian chinese governement will face a crisis it won't beat.

Quite possibly, but that will probably result in a new, improved China that's gonna be even more powerful than the previous, but I doubt it will happen that way. Time of revolutions has long since passed and I believe that change will be achieved gradually...

Louis and DemonArchangel said it perfectly...

[Yoyoma1910]

I'm making shrimp fried rice for dinner tonight.

I hope those are Louisiana shrimp.

I'd like to point out that a vast amount of the U.S.'s debt is owed to China, and China has always been the worlds largest producer. They have a vast and interesting history, and quite frankly it doesn't show. A lot of the nation is now a big dirty industrial wasteland, as every other country once was while it industrialized.


But yes, they are one of the most influential nations in the world. Just look at how all the world leaders started refusing to meet with the Dali Lama after China started making threats.

[Vladimir]

China is definitely a world power but like Redleg said, it is not a superpower. The U.S. is a superpower because it can project its power over the world. China is a regional power as it lacks sufficient ability to project all its power potential. Otherwise known as PP.

[yesdachi]

In my mind influence = superpower.

There is hardly a spot on earth or space that China can’t influence. They have a huge military and nukes, a space program, a UN veto, incredible manufacturing capacity, an economy that can push the US around if it wanted. I would consider that a superpower.

[Strike For The South]

I'm going to disagree with Louis here and say just because you have a large population does not excuse xenophobia or a lack of human rights to people who oppose you. A superpower maybe but China like France likes to inflate its own self importance. China will never dominate the world because it dominates its people. Will America outlast China? The way things are going no since we are becoming a China-lite but the EU India or Brazil might. China will go the way of the Soviets soon enough.

[Oleander Ardens]

Chinas economy will tumble too in the next years. Who should buy their products with the USA and the EU tightening teh belt?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm going to agree with Louis hereCool. :2thumbsup:

I'm happy we both agree that China is in a category of its own.


A superpower maybe but China like France likes to inflate its own self importance.That's below the belt and you know it. What has this got to do with anything? :no:

What is at stake in this thread is whether China is a World Power or not. And nothing else. This is an important geopolitical question to the sole two current World Powers of the United States and France.

[Upxl]

If they decided to mess with the Chinese, there would not be arm wringing, nor concerns about diplomacy, merely a crushing fist coming down both sides of the border.

Casualties in the thousands would be acceptable for both the Military, the Insurgents and the Locals as far as the Chinese government is concerned. If razing a zone 2 miles deep, using a minefield and shelling anything that moves in the zone, I imagine it would slowly and deliberately be constructed.

~:smoking:


That’s one thing what worries me about China.
And from what I’ve seen they’re really building up their military.

A recent national law states that all high schools must teach their students martial arts.
And last thing I heard was that students aren’t admitted to any higher education if they’re not in a good physical state.

To me china is expansionistic and very secretive, just looking at Africa or Tibet.
Camera crew’s and reporters aren’t allowed so no one really knows what the heck they are up to.~:confused:

[TevashSzat]

That’s one thing what worries me about China.
And from what I’ve seen they’re really building up their military.

Well, basically every country is building up their military. IIRC, the only US government department that increases in budget every year is the defense department. The main reason for most of China's military budget increase is the need to get a half decent navy since for a superpower, we have a really really really horrendous Navy for anything even kind of far


A recent national law states that all high schools must teach their students martial arts.
And last thing I heard was that students aren’t admitted to any higher education if they’re not in a good physical state.

I highly doubt it. This is more like how it goes in China:

You are smart and parents are middle class: You go to college
You are dumb/fat/mentally handicapped/whatever and parents are rich: You go to college
Your parents are dirt poor: Umm.....you have almost no chance of going to college

[Koga No Goshi]

I highly doubt it. This is more like how it goes in China:

You are smart and parents are middle class: You go to college
You are dumb/fat/mentally handicapped/whatever and parents are rich: You go to college
Your parents are dirt poor: Umm.....you have almost no chance of going to college

This ain't restricted to China.

[TevashSzat]

This ain't restricted to China.

I know it isn't but you don't know how bad it is in China.

You can literally almost do ANYTHING you want in China as long as you're rich. There is so much corruption/bribery that its not even funny. While there are legacies in the US colleges, at least they try to keep a semi decent facade that admissions are equal while in China.......

Also, in the US, if you're poor, but really smart, you can generally go to a good college. If you're poor and mediocre, not as great a chance, but a genius from a poor family can generally get access to good higher level education

Edit: @below post

Well, yeah that does seem to happen, but you never understand how bad corruption is in China unless you've lived there/have close kin or friends from there.

Just as an example: IIRC, no mainland Chinese individual is on the top 100 richest people in the world, all of the "Chinese" ones are from Hong Kong which is still kinda in a limbo state there (not independent and not like all other Chinese provinces) Thats because there are so many so incredibly filthy rich people in China that simply got their money illegally by scamming people, stealing from the government or something. You literally only go up in government by bribing the person above you.

Anecdote: My dad has some friends who are essentially part of the province level government. Basically, every new year they all get bribed by their underlings and then they bribe whoever they report too. Rinse and repeat. The sums that changes hands are so incredibly large too, like million of USD

[Koga No Goshi]

Well I'm sitting on a 10 trillion dollar debt in my country and people who are making it bigger everyday to line the pockets of military industries and private contractors so... I mean, I know what you're saying. But it's hard to feel like "my my we're so upstanding and upright and china, so degenerate and corrupt.."

[shlin28]

That’s one thing what worries me about China.
And from what I’ve seen they’re really building up their military.

Er... the army is actually decreasing in size, the only thing th PLA is doing is upgrading its army to a modern force on par with say... France? (Ignoring actual number of troops here) Surely any country, if they have enough money to do so, should be able to maintain a high-tech military force for defending the country? We don't want to use such old fashioned tactics like human waves do we? So messy...



A recent national law states that all high schools must teach their students martial arts.Nonsense. There are military trainings for schoolchildren (even primary school children... I did it when I was in China, all I remember is that it was a half day off school:beam:) but at most its like one week of military training every year, doing stuff like marching, keep fit etc. (according to my cousins anyway). So all in all its not all that worse compared to the Combined Cadet Force in Britain for example.


And last thing I heard was that students aren’t admitted to any higher education if they’re not in a good physical state.See Tevash's post, if you got cash, you can get into any university. (You use cash to buy "extra" exam points to get into a good school for example) Basing it on fitness would be stupid since half of all young people in China suck at sports. (Speaking from experience here...)

Phew...I actually made a post in the backroom? *runs around screaming*

[Strike For The South]

Cool. :2thumbsup:

I'm happy we both agree that China is in a category of its own.

That's below the belt and you know it. What has this got to do with anything? :no:

What is at stake in this thread is whether China is a World Power or not. And nothing else. This is an important geopolitical question to the sole two current World Powers of the United States and France.

You and I as Texans and Frenchman (more importantly a Parisian) must keep the plebs happy with small trinkets and glimmers of hope right? Otherwise who would be there to worship us? You know I only go below the belt when you let me :kiss:

[Don Corleone]

-Large military? Check.
-Cultural identity and history? Big honking check.
-Diplomatic presence on world stage? Check
-Nuclear armed? Check.


Seriously, I can't believe this is even open for discussion. Right now, China is the only reason Iran hasn't lobbed a nuke at Israel. They're the only reason North Korea hasn't tried to retake the South. They had record keepers and bureacrats when most of Western Europe was still wearing furs and painting themselves blue. And we're asking if they're a world power?

I am curious to see how things hold up for China as they get to enjoy their first global recession, and how well domestic bliss will hold up there when the money flow into the country slows down. But honestly, what country DOESN'T have minority issues? It takes more than a few Wiegers (sp?) to disqualify one from global leadership.

[shlin28]

It's Uighurs, pronounced like Wee-gers though.

[KukriKhan]

Phew...I actually made a post in the backroom? *runs around screaming*

Welcome. ~:wave:

Now that you've walked through the looking glass, do you feel any different? :)

[shlin28]

Welcome. ~:wave:

Now that you've walked through the looking glass, do you feel any different? :)

I think I will back away very very very slowly... :clown:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Welcome Shlin!

Please stay! The Backroom is where it's at! :balloon2:
More fun, more evil, more depravity than mafia games.


I thought you were Japanese? ~:confused:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

"Superpower" was coined during the coldwar to describe a nation that was not only a World Power in the old Metternich-style dictionary, but that had a major nuclear arsenal and could lay waste to great swathes of the planet at once. Kukri is on track with his Cold War nomenclature, as usual.

By that narrow definition, China is not yet a superpower but Russia still is.

However, the term Superpower is coming to mean "pokes its nose in everybody's business on a global scale." By THAT definition, we're still the only Superpower, though China is rapidly heading in that direction and Putin is starting to bring Russia back to that level as well.

The old "World Powers" were Austria, England, France, Russia, and the Ottoman Empire. As the 20th rolled on, Austria and the Ottomans were torn to fragments, Germany acquired then lost that status, and England and France lost that status following WW2. Russia lost that status but regained it in WW2, while the USA sort of gained it then solidified the position during WW2.

The dawn of the 21st sees the USA as a World Power, probably China (if not, they will be soon as influence in Africa and the Pacific, economic strength, and ability to project military power increases), and possibly Russia (not there yet, but Putin is pushing for it and they do have lots of big bombs). One could even suggest that a United Europe would acquire the status of a World Power, though that has yet to move past an early formative stage.

[JR-]

i think "great power" is the term you are looking for. |:)

[Papewaio]

The old "World Powers" were Austria, England, France, Russia, and the Ottoman Empire. As the 20th rolled on, Austria and the Ottomans were torn to fragments, Germany acquired then lost that status, and England and France lost that status following WW2. Russia lost that status but regained it in WW2, while the USA sort of gained it then solidified the position during WW2.


I would say when they sent the White Fleet around a hundred years ago they were flexing (much like China in space now). They solidified there position by the end of WW1 when they were stating whom could come to the peace table and negotiate. Not that their statements had absolute power, just that they felt they could bully other nations away without consequences at that point.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I would say when they sent the White Fleet around a hundred years ago they were flexing (much like China in space now). They solidified there position by the end of WW1 when they were stating whom could come to the peace table and negotiate. Not that their statements had absolute power, just that they felt they could bully other nations away without consequences at that point.

Agreed.

F5: you are correct indeed sir, "Great Powers" was the phrase my neurons slipped up in recalling. Apologies.

[Rhyfelwyr]

China definitely seems to be a superpower, however as its citizens get a better quality of life they will soon start demanding political rights, same as happened in the west. Of course rampant nationalism may keep the masses happier for a bit longer...

[Beefy187]

Well if we took a gaming style attitude to judge what the super power is then....

Military: Considerable amount of army. Equiped with fairly modernised weaponary and nuclear weapon stash which is enough to make other countries tremble. However if we think about their army, they should be fairly weak as China still have one child policy. I mean what kind of family wants their only son to die in war? So low moral but if they can improve this maybe..

Economy: One of the best.. Almost all goods is "made in china." Their cheap labour doing a mass production. Their economy is pretty influential.

Life standerds/ Production: This is related closely to stability. As China it self is not that stable (corruption... like that whole milk incident) many Chinese immigrates over sea. But the chinese over sea are still part of china I suppose..

Culture: Not as much as western life style but Chinese is pushing their culture. Theres a China town or chinese community in almost every city. Plus Kung Fu movies is slowly getting more and more populer (Kung Fu panda even came out)

Technology: Cant exactly say cutting edge but fairly advanced. Cities are also well developed in the Eastern coast city it is almost as advanced as cities in the western countries (and Japan and so on...). If they can improve their country side a bit then they might easily flog USA.

I guess its just the matter of how united and organise Chinese people can be. Right now it seems like a race where America is slowly getting caught up, China catching up and India is running few hundred metres behind China but catching up.

Its still a super power I guess

[Prince Cobra]

China... the Olympic games were demonstration of its power and ambitions.

Demography is no longer the burden it was in the past. Now it is power. And nowadays demography is one of the keys. And this is just the beginning... I am inquisitive to see how far it will go.

[Meneldil]

Had a discussion about that in my International Relation class a few days ago.

My opinion is that China definately has the potential to be a world power, and to rival Russia, the EU or even the US.

But then, I think China by no means wants to act as a world police, like the US are actually doing. They just get in, deal with the worst dictators ever, get their oil, while selling their crap to peace-loving democracies, and that's about it.

[wasabi]

LOL. It must certainly seem so from Peking; buncha johnny-come-lately's. :laugh4:

For me: anybody who has nukes is a world power. Pop one off, and the rest of the world instantly pays close attention, and everything we thought we knew, changes; economy, military, politics... everything.

So, yeah: China = world power.

Agree, +1

A tiny island east of China, Taiwan, has the similar population as Australia. I was born in Taiwan and grow up in Australia. Most people in Taiwan, consider the world as = China or = USA.

China has much more problems that it needs to clean up before it can become a super power.

Issues such as poverty, minority groups, product&food quality controls...these are some problems that has long been in China, but never been truly looked at.

To be honest, a super-power can be use in any country or anyone depends what perception you have on the word 'super-power'. I consider my son have the super power of annoying me the whole day....

On the other hand, I do not think a country that produced milk product that killed infants should be so great.

[Kralizec]

A tiny island east of China, Taiwan, has the similar population as Australia. I was born in Taiwan and grow up in Australia. Most people in Taiwan, consider the world as = China or = USA.

Until a large number of Han Chinese get uppity and start to undermine the party's authority, it doesn't really affect their claim to being a superpower though.

To me, a superpower is a country with power that no other can exceed. The USSR and the USA were reasonably matched most of the time, but right now the USA is the uncontested (and therefore only) superpower IMHO.