The Republican Crisis

[PanzerJaeger]

(some random thoughts.. it seems distinctive enough to avoid the elections thread)

Everyone is probably aware by now that this is a “democratic year”. The obvious implication is that there is a sort of pendulum that alternates between the democrats and the republicans. When people get tired of one party, they vote in the other. This is the way it has been for a long time, but is it a sure thing in the future?

The republicans face a new and far more dangerous challenge than overcoming George W. Bush’s legacy: demographics.

In the last century, particularly after WW2, both parties fought over the vast white majority. The democrats usually had an edge in party affiliation, but crossover and swing votes made most elections fairly contentious. (see Reagan democrats)

However, as Adrian pointed out a few weeks ago, the white race as a percentage of the total population in America is going to fall fast this century. Unless the republicans can sway either black or Latino’s to their side, the delicate balance will be fundamentally changed – as both of these (now) minorities vote heavily democratic.

So what will become of the GOP? They will certainly have to adapt, but will it be enough? Could they become a permanent opposition party… or worse? Political parties have risen and fallen in America before, and I believe Jefferson’s democrats took complete control before fracturing.

IMO, the blacks aren’t an option. They’ve always voted en masse for whoever promises them the most handouts. I just can’t see the GOP winning a pandering war for that community.

The Latinos are the only viable option. They will be far larger than the black community, and their values seem to fall more in line with the GOP. (Traditional, hard-working, individual initiative.)

George Bush recognized this, as do other key republicans – but the party is torn between principles and political expediency. Is it worth giving up the fight to end illegal immigration in order to score votes? It seems the damage has already been done. George Bush’s outreach was paltry at best, and the Mexican vote is highly skewed towards the democrats.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That's racist.

Only joking, but without a doubt somebody will say so. Hopefully, at any rate, this will lead to a strong third or even fourth party in America. The collapse of the two-party system would be good for democracy and America, in my opinion.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's not racist. It's strategical thinking based on ancestry. American politics has always done this.

I think the Republicans will eventually garner a hefty share of the Latino vote. Catholic, and, being Latin american, so conservative they make TuffStuff look like a liberal poster boy.

[ICantSpellDawg]

It's not racist. It's strategical thinking based on ancestry. American politics has always done this.

I think the Republicans will eventually garner a hefty share of the Latino vote. Catholic, and, being Latin american, so conservative they make TuffStuff look like a liberal poster boy.

I'm so popular! It's funny that people think i'm soooo conservative. Other conservatives probably laugh when you say it.

I think the G.O.P. will shift with the demographics. You've seen it happen over the last 4 years as an example of this shift - Hispanics are being courted by Republicans in the immigration debate. Nowhere is it written that the Republican party is the party of quo. Radicalism is a perception - I'm sure Lincoln was perceived as the radical elite of the 1860's; it seems counter-intuitive today, doesn't it? I see a large opening for Catholics in the G.O.P. and Hispanics will be included in that.

[Strike For The South]

I would love to see both parties crash and burn! You find allot of socially conservative mexicans who are democrat in name only like my congressmen CIRO "THE ENFORCER" RODREIGUEZ. Although the middle class mexicans tend to vote republican there counterparts in the valley tend to go blue. Although that has to do more with what happened during Carters years more than anything. Same with the blacks. They have always seen government as a helper a righter of wrongs (not that I can blame them) but as we move farther away from the civil rights away how much will this matter?

[KukriKhan]

Speculating on the effect of demographics in voting - whether it exists or will exist, and to what extent, is a perfectly reasonable topic for discussion.

If we can keep it free of slurs, stereotypes, and bile, we might have a good discussion. I'll try.

Please: you do too.

Thanks. :bow:

On-topic: I think 'the republican crisis' as it stands today, transcends demographics, and is a blow-back of the Bush II years. My fear for the next 4 years, is that the Dems will play tit-for-tat, and adopt an "anything but Bush" set of policies and priorities, like the 2001 Repubs did with "anything but Clinton". The pay-back paradigm. It sucks for we citizens.

[Xiahou]

Let me quote Rush Limbaugh from back in January:
I understand what you're saying. I hate to tell you this, but she's not alone. I'm here to tell you, if either of these two guys(McCain or Huckabee) get the nomination, it's going to destroy the Republican Party, it's going to change it forever, be the end of it. A lot of people aren't going to vote. You watch.
Think he's right?

[Marshal Murat]

I think it's difficult to decide who is 'white' and 'Latino' in a 100 years. They said the same thing about the Irish and Italians. The Republican Party used to be the radical party, back in 1880s. So it's faulty to assume that the parties will have the same roles as they did in 2000, IMHO.

On the topic at hand...

This 'crisis' of the Republicans is simply the failure of Republicans to act responsibly in their position as 'moral arbitrators' and 'preservers of the public trust.' There were enough scandals involving Republicans, and the association of Bush with the party at hand. So they're paying for their greed and partisanship. So are the Democrats, who control the Congress but are ridiculed for their laziness and inability to combat the Republicans.
The best I can hope for is that the next president (not the two candidates) realizes that the most effective way to maintain control is to accept others, and not tit-for-tat. When Obama becomes president, I wouldn't be surprised if the Congress would try to cut military spending to pay for the "2nd War on Unfairness and Unhappiness".

The Republicans, however, will either remain together in a party to compete with the Democrats; or they will split. Some will join the Democrats, others will form their own Party to compete with the Democrats. "Latino" voters probably won't form their own major third party, since they would be a regional party. Any 'major third party' has been either one that eclipses a party or a regional party. "Latinos" would be Southwestern U.S. states, focusing on "Southwestern Latino" issues. Blacks in the South probably face different problems than those in California or New York. So a third major party?
Maybe, but it would have to involve national issues to join the Republicans and Democrats.

[Koga No Goshi]

Maybe the Republican Party will have to stop wink-winking itself to the audience as for white people, by white people. One need only look at the turnout of the RNC to see that's true, let alone all these baiting speeches being given in recent news.

And Panzer, maybe black people being out of the grasp of Republicans has at least as much to do, if not more, with the sneering disregard of them as worthless welfare grubbers and an undesirable secondary caste in American society that your original post implied, as "who is promising them things."

[Crazed Rabbit]

Perhaps out of the ashes of the GOP will rise a new party centered on individual freedom, economically and socially, casting aside the GOP's desire to tell you how to live. One can dream, anyway.

As for black people, maybe we just need some non-democrats asking hard questions - where has voting democratic every year gotten you? Are your families stronger, your communities freer of drugs and crime?

CR

[Strike For The South]

Maybe the Republican Party will have to stop wink-winking itself to the audience as for white people, by white people. One need only look at the turnout of the RNC to see that's true, let alone all these baiting speeches being given in recent news.

And Panzer, maybe black people being out of the grasp of Republicans has at least as much to do, if not more, with the sneering disregard of them as worthless welfare grubbers and an undesirable secondary caste in American society that your original post implied, as "who is promising them things."

You put to much stock into hollywood. Blacks don't vote republican because of the civil rights movement not because there is some grand plan to keep them out of the GOP I mean we're talking about politicians for Gods sake

[Koga No Goshi]

You put to much stock into hollywood. Blacks don't vote republican because of the civil rights movement not because there is some grand plan to keep them out of the GOP I mean we're talking about politicians for Gods sake

Where, exactly, did I imply that there was any such grand plan to keep them out? I'm sure Republicans wouldn't mind getting black votes. But, given the choice between race baiting for pulling in more of the white base, and painting issues like welfare and crime as "black problems", and actually representing black Americans in any way, GOP strategists and campaigns seem to always favor the former.

It's hard to get someone's vote when you're out stumping to everyone else that they are the cause of some of society's biggest problems.

As for the Latinos, good luck on that one. The GOP is stuck in the same dilemma having to choose between whipping the base up over "illegals" and courting the Latino vote.

[PanzerJaeger]

I think the G.O.P. will shift with the demographics.


Possibly, but as Strike mentioned, in many areas one party dominates and the only way to challenge that is through the party. Here, for example, the majority of people are black. That essentially means that there are usually 2 or 3 major democratic contenders for mayor and the republican, if there is one, is not even an important player. This has happened before on a national level. The Whigs are another example..

I think that unlike white people, who are more comfortable switching between parties, the minorities I mentioned are far more hesitant to vote GOP - even if the dem candidate has proven terrible.

[Koga No Goshi]

I think that unlike white people, who are more comfortable switching between parties, the minorities I mentioned are far more hesitant to vote GOP - even if the dem candidate has proven terrible.

Re-read your original post and ask yourself why that might be.

[spmetla]

If the Republicans want the Latino vote then they'd need to change their stance on immigration though that would then cause a lot of their white vote to abandon them.

I'm with SFTS, let the Democrats and Republicans fall apart. I'd like new political parties to come to the forefront again. Maybe some Social-democrats or Social-republics. Would be nice to see a true fiscally conservative/market liberal party again.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The us government will never be small and it will continue to grow. So the republican party will have to fundementally change.

[Koga No Goshi]

The us government will never be small and it will continue to grow. So the republican party will have to fundementally change.

I'm actually yet to see noticeable evidence that in-practice policy being vastly out of step with spoken ideology has proved to be a voter turnout problem for the Republicans so far. The same people in many red states who've had their production jobs shipped overseas and take welfare checks show up in droves to vote for "small government" and a lapel pin slogan of patriotism.

[PanzerJaeger]

It's hard to get someone's vote when you're out stumping to everyone else that they are the cause of some of society's biggest problems.



I haven't heard any prominent GOP politicians claim black people are the cause of society's problems.

They vote dem because traditionally that party has been more willing to give them hand outs. Starting with the Johnson's Great Society or even before. Its ingrained at this point.

[Koga No Goshi]

I haven't heard any prominent GOP politicians claim black people are the cause of society's problems.

They vote dem because traditionally that party has been more willing to give them hand outs. Starting with the Johnson's Great Society or even before. Its ingrained at this point.

Wink wink hint hint. We need someone who understands US. Not someone like him.

And, yes, chaulk it up to we promise welfare or whatever to black people. It has nothing to do whatsoever with looking down your nose at black people and writing them off as unworthy of consideration. If you think that attitude is not known, and felt, out there in the general voting public, you're in denial.

[Strike For The South]

Where, exactly, did I imply that there was any such grand plan to keep them out? I'm sure Republicans wouldn't mind getting black votes. But, given the choice between race baiting for pulling in more of the white base, and painting issues like welfare and crime as "black problems", and actually representing black Americans in any way, GOP strategists and campaigns seem to always favor the former.

It's hard to get someone's vote when you're out stumping to everyone else that they are the cause of some of society's biggest problems.

As for the Latinos, good luck on that one. The GOP is stuck in the same dilemma having to choose between whipping the base up over "illegals" and courting the Latino vote.

In Texas the illegal immigrant issue is VERY divisive among Mexicans. You see many mexicans who live in South Texas come from Northern Mexico both of these places are very similar a rustic ranching culture dominates and has since the 1600s. Many illegals come from the Yucatan and central America. There food is different and there Spanish is different. These people have very little in common. Not to mention the demographics in South Texas were only in whites favor from like 1930-1970 we're a freaking anomaly on the demographic timeline. Many of these Tejanos were here long long before the "native" anglos. All good god fearing Texans know this. Every time I hear a national debate over illegal immigration I get angry as hell because these pundits dont know jack and dont do there homework. They don't understand the history or diverseness of Mexican and Texan relations. We are being overshadowed by hippies in Cali and retirees in Arizona. GAH

[Marshal Murat]

Johnson's Great Society did reduce poverty amongst the entire population, and helped with the situation overall. However, many 'temporary' programs were extended far beyond their intended cut-off date, with disastrous results.

The 'black' problem is simply because they lack means to improve their situation, combined with ingrained stereotypes. The Kerner Commission pointed out that the urban riots weren't demonstrations against any political group, but an escape valve of anger and frustration at the situation that they are in. Hand-outs are not the way to go, but it's easier to simply throw money at a problem than try to rectify it. Once a party finally decides to change things, and give blacks more opportunities to advance themselves, then we can see change and diversification of the black vote. Until that time, the blacks will vote for whoever gives them money.

[Koga No Goshi]

Yeah, shock and awe, not everyone of the same ethnicity feels the same way on every issue. :)

You will, similarly, find a lot of conservative Cubanos in Florida who are wealthy businessmen who got their start with the programs and special loans and grants the U.S. government gave them back in the 60's and such to make the case that Cuban people did so much better here in a free society than in repressive Cuba.

There is definitely division. But you are not going to wholesale capture the Latino vote when the GOP tries to make it a technical argument about legality and immigration, while that is NOT where the base feels on the issue. Every discussion winds up quickly blurring into an amorphous intolerance fest for people who don't like Hispanic people, period, don't like Spanish language, don't like Hispanic culture, don't like them coming up here into our white neighborhoods, and want them out. Again it's engaging in denial to pretend that racial intolerance plays absolutely no role in the discussion of immigration reform or why it resonates so well with wide pockets of white America.

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm with SFTS, let the Democrats and Republicans fall apart. I'd like new political parties to come to the forefront again. Maybe some Social-democrats or Social-republics. Would be nice to see a true fiscally conservative/market liberal party again.

The democrats are well positioned for the forseeable future. Of course when a party gets complete control it fractures.

On further consideration, the GOP has a few options, the first two aren't exactly savory though:

1. Pander to the Latino's hard
2. Draw a large percentage of whites from the dems
3. Somehow convince vastly democratic minorities that the republican party is more in tune with their values

Number three would be the best option by far, as the other two just play on racial divides. As has been mentioned, a great number of latino and even many black people are actually very conservative. If they could be convinced to put aside their socioeconomic status in the voting booth, the whole dynamic could be altered. This would require playing to religion, individualism, independence, and some other broad conservative themes.

[Strike For The South]

Yeah, shock and awe, not everyone of the same ethnicity feels the same way on every issue. :)

You will, similarly, find a lot of conservative Cubanos in Florida who are wealthy businessmen who got their start with the programs and special loans and grants the U.S. government gave them back in the 60's and such to make the case that Cuban people did so much better here in a free society than in repressive Cuba.

There is definitely division. But you are not going to wholesale capture the Latino vote when the GOP tries to make it a technical argument about legality and immigration, while that is NOT where the base feels on the issue. Every discussion winds up quickly blurring into an amorphous intolerance fest for people who don't like Hispanic people, period, don't like Spanish language, don't like Hispanic culture, don't like them coming up here into our white neighborhoods, and want them out. Again it's engaging in denial to pretend that racial intolerance plays absolutely no role in the discussion of immigration reform or why it resonates so well with wide pockets of white America.

Personally I blame the midwest

[Koga No Goshi]

Personally I blame the midwest

That is where a lot of the problem is, definitely, though it's not confined to there.

[Strike For The South]

That is where a lot of the problem is, definitely, though it's not confined to there.

TBH. We cant have an honest debate about this until the pundits get on there talking points on both sides. Our current laws are breeding hatred and dividing us up into "amnesty" and "send them back" isnt helping. Im sure Lou Dobbs has no understanding of the borders symbiotic relationship is much less what a maquiladora is

[Koga No Goshi]

The democrats are well positioned for the forseeable future. Of course when a party gets complete control it fractures.

On further consideration, the GOP has a few options, the first two aren't exactly savory though:

1. Pander to the Latino's hard
2. Draw a large percentage of whites from the dems
3. Somehow convince vastly democratic minorities that the republican party is more in tune with their values

Number three would be the best option by far, as the other two just play on racial divides. As has been mentioned, a great number of latino and even many black people are actually very conservative. If they could be convinced to put aside their socioeconomic status in the voting booth, the whole dynamic could be altered. This would require playing to religion, individualism, independence, and some other broad conservative themes.

Hard to keep the "marriage" of strange interests that constitutes the GOP base and simultaneously reach out to new communities. So Sasaki is probably correct that fundamental changes will be necessary.

You will never win huge swaths of white Dems while in bed with Fundamentalist Christianity who wants to make an American Christian version of sharia encoded into law. This particularly is why white women are turned off on the GOP.

You won't win minorities while cultivating racial wedge issues which excite the uneducated, largely low income white base.

And you won't win black people even though they are frequently Christian and morally conservative as long as you embrace an economic ideology which disproportionately, or even exclusively, benefits the top 30% of so of white male income earners, and helps them keep those advantages at the expense things that help everyone lower on the totem (like public services GENERALLY... not just welfare, but education and college grants and loans and economic development for depressed communities.) And further demonizes anyone who can't rise up and become part of the top 30% or so of income earners and tells them to go to night school or get a third job or use better judgment as the primary solution to economic inequality or poverty.

The GOP has cultivated its base by cultivating wedge issues and extremes, and now you're looking at having to back down from that and adopt something more moderate and widely palatable to draw in some of the groups they've alienated. I don't really envy the position, because you do stand to disgust some of the base constituencies by lightening up on the divisive tactics.

[Koga No Goshi]

TBH. We cant have an honest debate about this until the pundits get on there talking points on both sides. Our current laws are breeding hatred and dividing us up into "amnesty" and "send them back" isnt helping. Im sure Lou Dobbs has no understanding of the borders symbiotic relationship is much less what a maquiladora is

I agree but I don't think you will find tons of Dems giving just an "opposite extreme" talking point of "throw them all out" that you find on the right. Most Dems acknowledge it is a problem, the difference is, a lot of Dems will point out that the same people and interests who curry political support by condemning immigration are happy to petition the government not to do social security checks on employment and to hire illegals, themselves. And that you won't ever stop illegal immigration without aggressively going after the employers in the U.S. who are hiring them, which the GOP would have to do an about-face to propose, given that they oppose anything else that hurts business. The "small businesses" they vocally vehemently defend-- restaurants, small family farms and start-ups, frequently are some of the worst offenders of hiring illegal labor.

[PanzerJaeger]

Wink wink hint hint. We need someone who understands US. Not someone like him.

And, yes, chaulk it up to we promise welfare or whatever to black people. It has nothing to do whatsoever with looking down your nose at black people and writing them off as unworthy of consideration. If you think that attitude is not known, and felt, out there in the general voting public, you're in denial.

That doesn't really mean anything, and is exactly the sentiment the GOP is up against.

Despite Bush selecting black people to fill two of the most important cabinet positions, he's still against them. Oh and he let them all die in Katrina. Because they were black. :shame:

[AlexanderSextus]

They’ve always voted en masse for whoever promises them the most handouts.

I'm not gonna say that was 100% racist, but you did kinda push it there. I live around a lot of black people. Most of them that are on welfare actually need it. A lot of black people i know have never been on welfare. I mean, hell, if you live in tha damn projects, you should be on welfare. It sucks livin in tha projects.

What's a Maquiladora (hey, i live in NJ, theres no way i'd know what that is, Texas is WAY too far south. I'm a Yankee!)

[Koga No Goshi]

That doesn't really mean anything, and is exactly the sentiment the GOP is up against.

Despite Bush selecting black people to fill two of the most important cabinet positions, he's still against them. Oh and he let them all die in Katrina. Because they were black. :shame:

Selecting black people to shove up there as a facelift of the haggard white male face stereotype of the Republican Party changes the GOP's relationship to black America in the same way selecting Sarah Palin changes the GOP's relationship to Democratic women who want reproductive and salary equality.

In other words, it doesn't. And the idea that throwing up some token minorities should be enough to win over votes, and then fails to do so, is proof that these minorities you're writing off do actually look at the topics, and aren't just irrationally for or against whatever party panders to them superficially.

[AlexanderSextus]

That doesn't really mean anything, and is exactly the sentiment the GOP is up against.

Despite Bush selecting black people to fill two of the most important cabinet positions, he's still against them. Oh and he let them all die in Katrina. Because they were black. :shame:

Right because when White people steal out of desperation during the flooding they're "finding" food but when black people do it it's "looting" :wall:

[Koga No Goshi]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/F/g/katrina_looting_vs_finding.jpg

There is no racial problem in America. Move along now.

[PanzerJaeger]

Selecting black people to shove up there as a facelift of the haggard white male face stereotype of the Republican Party changes the GOP's relationship to black America in the same way selecting Sarah Palin changes the GOP's relationship to Democratic women who want reproductive and salary equality.

In other words, it doesn't. And the idea that throwing up some token minorities should be enough to win over votes, and then fails to do so, is proof that these minorities you're writing off do actually look at the topics, and aren't just irrationally for or against whatever party panders to them superficially.

Colin Powel and Condi Rice held very key positions. Hardly token minorities.

And if the minorities in question truly did look at the issues instead of which party will offer them more in the way government assistance, they would far more readily identify with the conservative leaning party - or at least more than the 10% the GOP gets now.

[PanzerJaeger]

Right because when White people steal out of desperation during the flooding they're "finding" food but when black people do it it's "looting" :wall:

What does that have to do with the GOP?

The instant accusations of racism on the part of the Bush administration during Katrina only highlight the ingrained anti-GOP attitudes among these people.

[Marshal Murat]

White people have a secretly racist view of African-Americans.
The GOP is made up of white people.

Ipso facto, the GOP has a secretly racist view of African-Americans.

And never mind that the man in charge of the city, Nagin, not only failed to act but then blamed it on the governor, who should've been prepared to help.

[Koga No Goshi]

Colin Powel and Condi Rice held very key positions. Hardly token minorities.

And if the minorities in question truly did look at the issues instead of which party will offer them more in the way government assistance, they would far more readily identify with the conservative leaning party - or at least more than the 10% the GOP gets now.

They were token minorities because they in no way represented the black experience in America or worked towards that end (bringing awareness to it or helping to improve it and represent the struggles of everyday black people). They gave a few nice speeches about black progress in America but did not diverge (especially Condi) from lockstep embrace of ideologies which only benefit the upper tier of whites.


The instant accusations of racism on the part of the Bush administration during Katrina only highlight the ingrained anti-GOP attitudes among these people.

There is no need to go around "inventing" imaginary claims of racism. Re-read your original post. Your viewpoint is fairly typical of white males who vote Republican. Somehow I couldn't see you going and voting for a political party that expressed similar contempt for white males.

[PanzerJaeger]

They were token minorities because they in no way represented the black experience in America or worked towards that end (bringing awareness to it or helping to improve it and represent the struggles of everyday black people). They gave a few nice speeches about black progress in America but did not diverge (especially Condi) from lockstep embrace of ideologies which only benefit the upper tier of whites.

Umm, what? They are black people who were born and raised in America. How the hell do they not represent the "black experience".

This is the problem, and why the GOP will never get anywhere with blacks. It's simply not good enough for the party to advance people of color who are smart and talented, and it's certainly not good enough to be a smart and talented black person who commits to a job without validating all the racial baggage... err.. the "black experience". It's neither the National Security Advisor's role nor that of the Secretary of State to "bring awareness to or help to improvet and represent the struggles of everyday black people".

This is why I, and so many republicans, love Condi Rice. She represents, to me, the epitome of what our society should be striving for. She's a smart and capable black woman who has advanced on her own merits. The fact that she is a black woman is meaningless. What's important is her professionalism and talent. That's a colorblind society.

Of course the that's not what the democrats want. They've learned that playing into and promoting a victim mentality is very beneficial. Create dependence, and you've got block voting.



There is no need to go around "inventing" imaginary claims of racism. Re-read your original post. Your viewpoint is fairly typical of white males who vote Republican. Somehow I couldn't see you going and voting for a political party that expressed similar contempt for white males.

I only represented reality. The GOP gets only around 10% of the black vote... if that.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

There is no need to go around "inventing" imaginary claims of racism. Re-read your original post. Your viewpoint is fairly typical of white males who vote Republican. Somehow I couldn't see you going and voting for a political party that expressed similar contempt for white males.

Actually, his OP featured a bigoted assessment of African Americans. Racism is the belief in the inherent superiority of one race over another (or all others). Bigotry is characterizing someone negatively based soley upon their race. Prejudice is making an evaluation in advance of the facts based upon race.

Yes, race still plays upon our minds too much and too many folks establish part of their identity/sense of self based upon race -- or upon "not" being of another race.

Don't worry though, Koga-san, if we finally put race behind us we'll find some other superficial criterion upon which we can discriminate against some other so as to feel superior. No real improvement in thinking will be required.

And yes, I'm feeling cynical tonight, despite my Phillies pulling out a close win against LA.

[Koga No Goshi]

Actually, his OP featured a bigoted assessment of African Americans. Racism is the belief in the inherent superiority of one race over another (or all others). Bigotry is characterizing someone negatively based soley upon their race. Prejudice is making an evaluation in advance of the facts based upon race.

Yes, race still plays upon our minds too much and too many folks establish part of their identity/sense of self based upon race -- or upon "not" being of another race.

Don't worry though, Koga-san, if we finally put race behind us we'll find some other superficial criterion upon which we can discriminate against some other so as to feel superior. No real improvement in thinking will be required.

And yes, I'm feeling cynical tonight, despite my Phillies pulling out a close win against LA.

There are many different definitions of racism. Biological racism is closest to what you defined. Racism can also be social; defending, or advocating, a social or socioeconomic structure which gives benefit to one group and disadvantage to another based on racial groupings, or merely advocates perpetuating a system where this is already the case. Writing off a system in the U.S. where race still closely correlates with poverty and socioeconomic status, without so much as even an attempt to examine what structural causes may be creating that scenario, and simply saying "they're just waiting for someone to come give them handouts and welfare", is very much a brand of racism.


Umm, what? They are black people who were born and raised in America. How the hell do they not represent the "black experience".

This is the problem, and why the GOP will never get anywhere with blacks. It's simply not good enough for the party to advance people of color who are smart and talented, and it's certainly not good enough to be a smart and talented black person who commits to a job without validating all the racial baggage... err.. the "black experience".

This is why I, and so many republicans, love Condi Rice. She represents, to me, the epitome of what our society should be striving for. She's a smart and capable black woman who has advanced on her own merits. The fact that she is a black woman is meaningless. What's important is her professionalism and talent. That's a colorblind society.

Of course the that's not what the democrats want. They've learned that playing into and promoting a victim mentality is very beneficial. Create dependence, and you've got block voting.

Our society should strive to have oil tankers named after individuals? Okay being facetious.

No, we're not playing into a victim mentality. We're recognizing that a century and a half of "pull yourself up despite disadvantage or discrimination" has only worked at a snail's pace, and even then, required generations of legal and social effort to continue and facilitate further forward progress. A colorblind system benefits whites because they already have an unequal footing over nearly every other group when it comes to existing wealth and assets, existing access and opportunity to higher education and good job placement, and nicer communities with better services and resources available. Your argument basically says let it take another century and a half to even begin approaching equality, and everyone who suffers in the meanwhile is either delusional and suffering from a victim complex, or is to blame for their lack of personal responsibility in not overcoming structural and defacto impediments to social mobility. And, not surprisingly, this mindset has not lent itself well to endearing your party to blacks in America.

Whites are the only people in the U.S. who have the luxury to say "I am checking my race at the door when I leave my house today, and will not think about it or have it enter my reality in what happens today." As a mixed race person I know that myself, though I would not pretend that my lot in American society has been as rough as many black people's. Colorblind works, if you're white. For everyone else it's an excuse to continue defacto inequality.

[Strike For The South]

There are many different definitions of racism. Biological racism is closest to what you defined. Racism can also be social; defending, or advocating, a social or socioeconomic structure which gives benefit to one group and disadvantage to another based on racial groupings, or merely advocates perpetuating a system where this is already the case. Writing off a system in the U.S. where race still closely correlates with poverty and socioeconomic status, without so much as even an attempt to examine what structural causes may be creating that scenario, and simply saying "they're just waiting for someone to come give them handouts and welfare", is very much a brand of racism.



Our society should strive to have oil tankers named after individuals? Okay being facetious.

No, we're not playing into a victim mentality. We're recognizing that a century and a half of "pull yourself up despite disadvantage or discrimination" has only worked at a snail's pace, and even then, required generations of legal and social effort to continue and facilitate further forward progress. A colorblind system benefits whites because they already have an unequal footing over nearly every other group when it comes to existing wealth and assets, existing access and opportunity to higher education and good job placement, and nicer communities with better services and resources available. Your argument basically says let it take another century and a half to even begin approaching equality, and everyone who suffers in the meanwhile is either delusional and suffering from a victim complex, or is to blame for their lack of personal responsibility in not overcoming structural and defacto impediments to social mobility. And, not surprisingly, this mindset has not lent itself well to endearing your party to blacks in America.

Whites are the only people in the U.S. who have the luxury to say "I am checking my race at the door when I leave my house today, and will not think about it or have it enter my reality in what happens today." As a mixed race person I know that myself, though I would not pretend that my lot in American society has been as rough as many black people's. Colorblind works, if you're white. For everyone else it's an excuse to continue defacto inequality.

So what do you propose we do? Reverse racism?

[Strike For The South]

I'm not gonna say that was 100% racist, but you did kinda push it there. I live around a lot of black people. Most of them that are on welfare actually need it. A lot of black people i know have never been on welfare. I mean, hell, if you live in tha damn projects, you should be on welfare. It sucks livin in tha projects.

What's a Maquiladora (hey, i live in NJ, theres no way i'd know what that is, Texas is WAY too far south. I'm a Yankee!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladora

[Koga No Goshi]

So what do you propose we do? Reverse racism?

I don't know how asking people not to show sneering contempt for black people, and then complaining that they'll never vote for you because they're irrational and just want handouts, constitutes reverse racism. And reverse racism is a red herring anyway because unless somehow the paradigm shifted and the legal and economic system put blacks over whites in power and influence and wealth, it wouldn't be possible. Racism always has to have a power component.

When crack cocaine has a 6 month sentence and snort cocaine has a 20 year sentence, and the conviction rates of whites doing snort cocaine is double the conviction rate of blacks doing crack cocaine, we'll talk about reverse racism.

[Strike For The South]

I don't know how asking people not to show sneering contempt for black people, and then complaining that they'll never vote for you because they're irrational and just want handouts, constitutes reverse racism. And reverse racism is a red herring anyway because unless somehow the paradigm shifted and the legal and economic system put blacks over whites in power and influence and wealth, it wouldn't be possible. Racism always has to have a power component.

When crack cocaine has a 6 month sentence and snort cocaine has a 20 year sentence, and the conviction rates of whites doing snort cocaine is double the conviction rate of blacks doing crack cocaine, we'll talk about reverse racism.

ok but I dont have sneering contempt for black people and neither do many people I know. If it were up to me race/ethnicity would be removed from all job and school apps. In this day in age instilling into our children that there is a divide and that one group hates them (IE Mexicans) we will hurt ourselves these young kids who liked Hannah Montana and Batman will be driven away because of some perceived hate. Instead of going through the normal immigration process they will be ostracized.

There are racists of all skin color

[Koga No Goshi]

ok but I dont have sneering contempt for black people and neither do many people I know. If it were up to me race/ethnicity would be removed from all job and school apps. In this day in age instilling into our children that there is a divide and that one group hates them (IE Mexicans) we will hurt ourselves these young kids who liked Hannah Montana and Batman will be driven away because of some perceived hate. Instead of going through the normal immigration process they will be ostracized.

There are racists of all skin color

I was talking about Panzer and the original post. There are bigots of all skin color. Racism isn't "I don't like black people." Racism is "Black people are poor and all the things that keep them poor should be kept as they are."

[Strike For The South]

I was talking about Panzer and the original post. There are bigots of all skin color. Racism isn't "I don't like black people." Racism is "Black people are poor and all the things that keep them poor should be kept as they are."

The things that keep them poor is a piss poor education system

[InsaneApache]

I like to follow US politics. I was talking to 'Mom' t'other week about her voting intentions. This time she's made sure she gets the postal vote before the election. :oops:

I was asking her when did the blacks stop voting for the GOP? I was intrigued how the voting pattern had shifted towards the Democrats from the Republicans after reconstruction and all that.

She told me that it had been a loooong time since the GOP had secured the majority of the black vote and a general run down of why that is.

I'd be interested to hear some of you guys give your opinion.

[Koga No Goshi]

The things that keep them poor is a piss poor education system

You're in college, so you're doing okay. Though yes public services in general are in pretty bad shape most especially education. But "small government, small government, cut taxes" is no way to improve that.

[Strike For The South]

I like to follow US politics. I was talking to 'Mom' t'other week about her voting intentions. This time she's made sure she gets the postal vote before the election. :oops:

I was asking her when did the blacks stop voting for the GOP? I was intrigued how the voting pattern had shifted towards the Democrats from the Republicans after reconstruction and all that.

She told me that it had been a loooong time since the GOP had secured the majority of the black vote and a general run down of why that is.

I'd be interested to hear some of you guys give your opinion.

my my. Well before the 60s the black vote was very small things like the poll tax and literary test kind of killed any en masse voting so the GOP never had the black vote. People look at ol Abe and see PARTY: REPUBLICAN and think there was some major shift when there really wasnt. The great society was passed by Lyndon Johnson who was a democrat and ever since they "stand for the poor" (there words not mine) Blacks see them as vehicle that will help them. Black voting started with the civil rights movement.

[InsaneApache]

That's pretty much what 'Mom' says. Fascinating. Thankyou. :bow:

[Strike For The South]

You're in college, so you're doing okay. Though yes public services in general are in pretty bad shape most especially education. But "small government, small government, cut taxes" is no way to improve that.

But Im not black....The school system should be run by the states and teachers should be paid more. This is my one program I would really be willing to spend money on as I see education as the ultimate chance. Im seriously considering joining teach for america and teaching in inner city SA or on the border. Im sick of the way our education system keeps people in poverty. These kids are tuaght by unmotvatited teachers who have been jaded by crappy pay and crappy conditions and thats just not fair to the children. Knowledge is power.....I need to wash I feel so libreal:laugh4:

[Strike For The South]

That's pretty much what 'Mom' says. Fascinating. Thankyou. :bow:

'"mom"? If I still use mum and rubbish an honest to good englishman should!:laugh4:

[Koga No Goshi]

But Im not black....The school system should be run by the states and teachers should be paid more. This is my one program I would really be willing to spend money on as I see education as the ultimate chance. Im seriously considering joining teach for america and teaching in inner city SA or on the border. Im sick of the way our education system keeps people in poverty. These kids are tuaght by unmotvatited teachers who have been jaded by crappy pay and crappy conditions and thats just not fair to the children. Knowledge is power.....I need to wash I feel so libreal:laugh4:

Improving education = helps everyone = good thing

Cutting taxes + Cutting Spending = helps only those already set = not a good thing.

In the most simple terms possible. :)

Although while on the topic, schools being locally funded is a joke. Schools in nice areas are so nice that people are taking out fake mailing addresses and crap to get their kids in, while schools in inner cities crumble and are underfunded and overcrowded. We need a general pot, equal distribution system like the U.K.

[InsaneApache]

'"mom"? If I still use mum and rubbish an honest to good englishman should!:laugh4:

:laugh4: I actually use mam for my biological mater.

[AlexanderSextus]

Umm, what? They are black people who were born and raised in America. How the hell do they not represent the "black experience".


Condoleeza rice grew up in a middle class home, with Teachers as parents.

She does not represent the majority of black people in this country who have to live in public housing, and have to go to :daisy: public schools, and live in communities where the jobs that exist are not going to be good enough to bring them out of these conditions.

The best most of them can get as a job in their communities is owning a convenience store or jewlery store.

Of course, it is possible for black people to rise out of the conditions but its not easy when you go to school in the ghetto. It gets to the point where i had friends at my high school who wrote a relative's name on the enrollment form just so they didnt have to go to school in the ghetto (Their grandma lived in my town).

The teachers at these schools are underpaid, the materials are underfunded, The curriculum is BOLLOCKS, and the kids have to worry about getting stabbed or robbed in the halls. Most are in gangs. (yes i used a britishism, because it fits better.)

These things i'm saying are not generalized statements or stereotypes. I'm speaking from experience.

Honestly, where do you live???? have you even BEEN to an area where most minorities are living in poverty??? I cant stand it when people act like they're in the conditions they're in because it's "their fault" They'd all jet out of there in a second if they had the opportunity.

i'll quote my friend who i was talking to the other day...it was a response to the question i asked:

"yo man, your dads a cop, he makes mad money, your mom cares for the elderly, she makes mad money, you make mad money working as the manager in the mall, and you are the only one on your block that isnt living in a crappy house. Why don't you just move out????"


we took the half rotted lemons we had and managed to make lemonade. We dont need to leave anymore because we made our conditions better. Most people here dont have the resources to do that.

We in tha hood cuz we hood. They in tha hood cuz they cant get out.

[InsaneApache]

nm.

[Koga No Goshi]

Of course, it is possible for black people to rise out of the conditions but its not easy when you go to school in the ghetto. It gets to the point where i had friends at my high school who wrote a relative's name on the enrollment form just so they didnt have to go to school in the ghetto (Their grandma lived in my town).

The teachers at these schools are underpaid, the materials are underfunded, The curriculum is BOLLOCKS, and the kids have to worry about getting stabbed or robbed in the halls. Most are in gangs. (yes i used a britishism, because it fits better.)

These things i'm saying are not generalized statements or stereotypes. I'm speaking from experience.

Honestly, where do you live???? have you even BEEN to an area where most minorities are living in poverty??? I cant stand it when people act like they're in the conditions they're in because it's "their fault" They'd all jet out of there in a second if they had the opportunity.


:yes::yes::yes: Well said, AlexanderSextus.

That's become the mantra in America, and it's sickening.

It's your fault Katrina hit and a horse rancher was running FEMA. It's your fault you went to substandard schools. It's your fault you were born into poverty. It's your fault.

It's your fault.

It's your fault.

It's your fault.

These voices, almost unerringly, coming from almost assuredly comfortably middle class or above non-black faces on an internet forum.

It's nice to have all the "answers" to poverty, race and inequality. Especially when those answers are oh so simple. In fact, there's one answer to all of it.

It's your fault.

But, there are going to always be people who don't get it. Because they didn't live it, didn't experience it, and don't see how caring about it benefits them. It's not their problem, so it's not a problem.

I may be in the minority opinion, but I don't think that's what the promise of America is supposed to be about.

[gaelic cowboy]

Token said it best on Southpark

"You just don't get it"

[seireikhaan]

Personally I blame the midwest
:bigcry:

On the topic at hand; let the Republican party burn, it deserves it. Supposed to be the party of economic frugality, and it spends up the biggest deficit in US history. Not to mention a lot of the more "unsavory" characters who seem to keep finding a home somewhere on the party fringes whom I absolutely cannot stand. Plus, this constant push to make sure every American acknowledges God and making sure that every child remembers to thank him every day in class. :dizzy2:



*not that democrats are much better; just less dishonest about their scumbaggery :wink:

[Strike For The South]

The black experince is a red herring. An ol boy from Mississippi and a black muslim from Detroit aernt likely to have much in common. I'll also like to say that part of the problem is this.


We in tha hood cuz we hood. They in tha hood cuz they cant get out.

Remembering where you come from is one thing. Glorifying the ghetto is another and its completely counter productive.

[PanzerJaeger]

I was talking about Panzer and the original post. There are bigots of all skin color. Racism isn't "I don't like black people." Racism is "Black people are poor and all the things that keep them poor should be kept as they are."

Please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks. :2thumbsup:


Condoleeza rice grew up in a middle class home, with Teachers as parents.
She does not represent the majority of black people in this country who have to live in public housing, and have to go to public schools, and live in communities where the jobs that exist are not going to be good enough to bring them out of these conditions.
The best most of them can get as a job in their communities is owning a convenience store or jewlery store.
Of course, it is possible for black people to rise out of the conditions but its not easy when you go to school in the ghetto. It gets to the point where i had friends at my high school who wrote a relative's name on the enrollment form just so they didnt have to go to school in the ghetto (Their grandma lived in my town).


Do you realize how many white people live in abject poverty in America? If George Bush had tapped a redneck straight out of the trailer park to run the State Department, people would think him insane. Yet somehow Bush would have had to pull some homeboy out of the ghetto in order to get any credit for advancing racial equality, or at least ignoring traditional racial division.

This is what is so frustrating about race in this country. Race no longer has anything to do with skin color... its a lifestyle. Black people of upper or middle class backgrounds are not black anymore. Black people who advance from the lower class without doing enough to promote the "black experience" are not black anymore. Any successful black person today who does not constantly dwell on their race is an Uncle Tom. Being successful and black are not mutually exclusive in America anymore!



Honestly, where do you live???? have you even BEEN to an area where most minorities are living in poverty??? I cant stand it when people act like they're in the conditions they're in because it's "their fault" They'd all jet out of there in a second if they had the opportunity.

I live in a city that has been run by black people for quite some time. There are plenty of black owned businesses and relatively large numbers of middle and upper class blacks. However, there persists a pervasive victim mentality among many.

When I was doing Meals on Wheels as part of my community outreach for school, it was amazing to see the number of young, fully capable black people sitting at home in the middle of the day collecting free meals. These are the same people living off of welfare whose primary economic activity is having babies.

I am very aware of the realities of the black community. I know black people who have worked hard and made it, and I know many who haven’t. I see it in class everyday – those who are working hard, and those who are content to screw around until their state-funded free tuition is gone.

The point is: Being black is no longer an excuse to suck at life. They can succeed in this country just like everyone else - and many are doing just that.

If Rice isn't really black, what about Barack Obama? Attending a church that damns America to hell and blames the government for AIDS must certainly qualify him as being authentically black by your definition. His life story demonstrates that intelligence, hard work, and never simply accepting your lot in life can lead to great success in this country - even for a black man with a strange sounding, muslim name.





i'll quote my friend who i was talking to the other day...it was a response to the question i asked:
"yo man, your dads a cop, he makes mad money, your mom cares for the elderly, she makes mad money, you make mad money working as the manager in the mall, and you are the only one on your block that isnt living in a crappy house. Why don't you just move out????"

Quote:
Originally Posted by my friend
we took the half rotted lemons we had and managed to make lemonade. We dont need to leave anymore because we made our conditions better. Most people here dont have the resources to do that.
We in tha hood cuz we hood. They in tha hood cuz they cant get out.

That little nugget of ghetto wisdom is certainly heartwarming, but it also kind of makes my point. Despite some success, your friend seems unwilling to get out of “the hood” or to even learn proper English. When he tries to advance in his career, but cannot articulate during a job interview, is that failure going to be because he is black or because he didn't invest properly in himself? The “black experience” is now so ingrained, many aren’t willing to do what it takes to succeed, and don’t really have any desire to either.


Its your fault.

When does it, in fact, become their fault? Ever?

Yes it sucks to be born into trash. I think we can agree on that. However, there are vast numbers of both white and latino people who are also born into unfortunate conditions. They don’t have a ready made excuse for failure.

At what point do the struggles of "black experience" - using your unique description - just become the same struggles any group of people of a lower class background go through? Reinforcing the idea that black people are predestined to failure from birth, or that successful black people like Condi Rice aren’t really black, isn’t helping anyone but the democratic party. ~;)

[Koga No Goshi]

The black experince is a red herring. An ol boy from Mississippi and a black muslim from Detroit aernt likely to have much in common. I'll also like to say that part of the problem is this.



Remembering where you come from is one thing. Glorifying the ghetto is another and its completely counter productive.

This is different from the awe and reverence we are supposed to feel for "good heartland country folk who shop at Wal Mart and don't live like the "Hollywood crowd", how , exactly? To me, the "heartland" is a bastion of intolerance and puritanically hypocritical religious excess. Yet you'd think it births nothing but saints, the way the GOP talks about it.

[Koga No Goshi]

Do you realize how many white people live in abject poverty in America? If George Bush had tapped a redneck straight out of the trailer park to run the State Department, people would think him insane. Yet somehow Bush would have had to pull some homeboy out of the ghetto in order to get any credit for advancing racial equality, or at least ignoring traditional racial division.

This is what is so frustrating about race in this country. Race no longer has anything to do with skin color... its a lifestyle. Black people of upper or middle class backgrounds are not black anymore. Black people who advance from the lower class without doing enough to promote the "black experience" are not black anymore. Any successful black person today who does not constantly dwell on their race is an Uncle Tom. Being successful and black are not mutually exclusive in America anymore!

Congratulations, you have finally put two and two together. Race and socioeconomic class are frequently tied together in our society. Yes there are poor whites and rich blacks. That's why programs which target race alone don't work well and most racial minorities acknowledge this. Affirmative action, for instance, tends to benefit rich blacks who were probably going to college anyway, and not so much poorer blacks who struggle because they went to substandard schools. It's slapping a bandaid on at 18 for malnourishment suffered from age 6. The problem is, the white conservative solution is simply get rid of it. Not replace it with something better which would reflect socioeconomic class even for poor whites, or even better yet, to fix the quality of public schools nationwide in the first place so that these kinds of disparities aren't becoming lifelong racial fixtures by age 18 and the college level.


I live in a city that has been run by black people for quite some time. There are plenty of black owned businesses and relatively large numbers of middle and upper class blacks. However, there persists a pervasive victim mentality among many.

Victim mentalities go both ways. Whites frequently feel themselves victims as well--- I hear all this garbage, that Christianity is oppressed in America, that whites are an oppressed majority. It doesn't take much to make whites start to feel oppressed, especially white males. All it takes is removing unquestionably preferential or exclusive access to the best schools, jobs and opportunities for them to start to feel pushed out and "oppressed" and "reverse-discriminated against."


When I was doing Meals on Wheels as part of my community outreach for school, it was amazing to see the number of young, fully capable black people sitting at home in the middle of the day collecting free meals. These are the same people living off of welfare whose primary economic activity is having babies.

The fact that this is a problem with blacks and not the huge numbers of whites doing the same thing is what makes your indignation against it prejudiced in nature. The very same double standard that had us discussing how very different the media coverage would have been... it certainly wouldn't have been a "private matter and no one else's business to judge" if Obama's daughter had been 17 and pregnant. You'd be the last person defending their "family privacy" in that scenario I expect. You would think that welfare, poverty, crime, teenage pregnancy or any other social problem actually isn't a problem until a black or hispanic person is doing it. Yet whites do it every single day.


I am very aware of the realities of the black community. I know black people who have worked hard and made it, and I know many who haven’t. I see it in class everyday – those who are working hard, and those who are content to screw around until their state-funded free tuition is gone.

You forgot a category, people who work hard and don't make it. And I think if you really had "awareness of the realities of the black community", you would see a lot of this as well, and wouldn't fail to mention it. Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh and O'Reilly don't give you an awareness of the realities of the black community, btw.


The point is: Being black is no longer an excuse to suck at life. They can succeed in this country just like everyone else - and many are doing just that.

What's the angry white male excuse for sucking at life? What's the excuse for all those inbred hicks at Palin rallies yelling racial comments or violent comments? Or all those white people with five kids by three dads on Jerry Springer? You keep looking at only one side of the coin here.


When does it, in fact, become their fault? Ever?

Black people themselves will tell you stories about black people they blame for their own situations. A self-righteous angry white guy on a forum complaining about how blacks alone are the only group singled out for the privilege of groupblame for their condition in our society has no credibility especially when the things you condemn them for can be equally applied to many of your own race. However, your question implies an assumption that everything that happens to you, and everything that you experience or succeed at in this world, is absolute 100% personal responsibility. How is an 11 year old black girl in the deep south personally responsible when she encounters racist adults? How is a black couple with professional jobs personally responsible when all the real estate agents lie and say no houses are available in the nicer neighborhood, or a bank requires a higher credit score from them than an equivalent income white family? The personal responsibility explains everything argument that underlines almost the entire white conservative mindset doesn't usefully address many things in social reality, except in a simpleminded and pendantically dismissive way.


Yes it sucks to be born into trash. I think we can agree on that. However, there are vast numbers of both white and latino people who are also born into unfortunate conditions. They don’t have a ready made excuse for failure.

They don't? When whites get born into trash and stay there, they seem quick to show up for rallies to blame it all on the Mexicans, or the welfare queens (who are always mysteriously black.)


At what point do the struggles of "black experience" - using your unique description - just become the same struggles any group of people of a lower class background go through? Reinforcing the idea that black people are predestined to failure from birth, or that successful black people like Condi Rice aren’t really black, isn’t helping anyone but the democratic party. ~;)

How many people want to murder McCain because he's Irish? Vs. how many people want Obama killed because he's black?

Maybe the explanations for inequality will "be the same as for every other group" when the treatment is the same as every other group.

[Lemur]

It's not just racial minorities the G.O.P. needs to worry about. They're also working very hard to drive away the educated classes with their latest frenzy of anti-intellectualism, as one blogger noted (http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=10&year=2008&base_name=i_cant_really_think_of_a_title) today:


As for the educated class, that's an interesting question. Much like with the conservative wing's mistrust of Hispanics, it's a policy that might have seemed electorally wise a couple years ago but is growing more questionable with every passing election. At some point, the demographic trends predicted by The Emerging Democratic Majority (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743254783?ie=UTF8&tag=ezrkle-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0743254783) will reach sufficient maturity and the GOP's decades-long effort to drive away the educated and young and the different is going to leave them making ever more exclusionary appeals to an ever smaller slice of the electorate.

[ICantSpellDawg]

It will take a minor re-calibration on the Republican side. They have the natural elements inherent to court the Hispanic vote; conservative social issues, rewards for those who work hard and a pro-business agenda that encourages illegal or semi-legal immigration. Republicans should welcome westernized and hardworking Christians PARTICULARLY when out of power.

As far as intellectualism is concerned - it is necessary for the G.O.P. to embrace guys and gals like Romney, Jindal, and Ryan as epically important for the future of the party. The G.O.P. has become the party against ideas and that can only change if we welcome bright people who respect tradition but work to change what is broken. You can stay respectful and keep your eye on the ideal even when changing course.

[Spino]

I think this Republican crisis is way overblown and is shaping up to be a short term problem. Rewind to the late 60's... Johnson's Vietnam fiasco didn't doom the Democrats (although it did forever change the party) nor did it prevent Carter from being elected in the 70's. The numerous failures of Carter's administration and his landslide loss to Reagan didn't destroy the Democratic party either. On the flip side Tricky Dick Nixon and Watergate didn't doom the Republican party either.

Now fast forward back to the present... Since they've achieved the majority in Congress the Democrats have proven that their approach to problem solving is no different than the Republican approach during the Bush administration... spend, spend, spend. And despite Democratic control of the House & Senate Congress' approval rating has been dropping steadily for the better part of the last two years and has been consistently lower than the President's already low approval rating. If you seriously believe that the American people's confidence in Congress and the Democratic party is going to improve with Barack Obama at the helm while the country races irrevocably into a recession/depression you need to seriously consider stop talking to the dancing shadows on the wall and leave the sheltered confines of that cave you call reality.

Furthermore if the Republican party was in danger of truly being destroyed we would see far greater numbers for Barack Obama in the polls. Statistically speaking despite the country's dislike of GW Bush and the Neo-Con Republican brand Obama simply hasn't been able to seal the deal with decisive numbers. McCain is trailing but not badly and certainly not badly enough to call it a waste of time. Reagan trailed Carter in the polls in the months leading up to the election and look what happened (NO, I'm not saying McCain could win a landslide but just trying to prove a point.)

In the last few decades the American people have demonstrated a serious penchance for short term thinking and instant gratification. They key voting bloc this year is disgruntled moderates who, thanks to GW Bush, seem to be leaning towards the Chosen Farce as opposed to the Salty Sailor. But looking forward this "What have you done for me lately?" factor is going to be off the scale as the effects of this impending recession/depression begins to have a profound effect on unemployment. Spending money we don't have and printing more money to compensate for the loans we cannot get is no solution; it won't solve this financial crisis and it won't let the Democrats enjoy their control of the Executive & Legislative branches for very long should they win big this Fall. As I've said in other threads, blaming the Republicans & GW Bush for past sins won't wash with the mob (the blame game rarely works with desperate people looking for blood). It is conceivable that these cycles of Democratic/Republican control could wind up matching the span of a single presidential term.

White majority or not failing the emergence of new parties I think it's safe to say you can count on moderates & unaffiliated voters jockeying back and forth between Democrats and Republicans with each new election cycle. Regarding Latinos it seems that regardless of their point of origin they are undeniably far more upwardly mobile than blacks, a fact bore out by their higher standing in the socio-economic & academic spectrum. As the Latino presence in the middle/upper middle/upper class tax brackets increases it is entirely reasonable to expect many of them to reject the Democratic strategy of class & racial division & the pro-choice platform and return to their socially conservative roots (i.e. like Florida's Cuban-American population) and vote Republican. No matter what Republicans need to seriously begin courting the Latino population. On the other hand this issue may solve itself as more Latinos join the Republican party and naturally appeal to their own constituency. Let us also not overlook the fact that people have a tendency to vote more conservatively the older they get and when married and with children.

As to the long term picture regardless of whether we're talking about the Republican or Democratic party the party that manages to overhaul itself first and break with the bad habits of the last 30 years could find itself in the dominant position for some time. The time to do so is now or in the very near future as this recession/depression hits us. But as I've stated in numerous other threads, I simply do not believe the culture dominating post-war generation America is conducive to the overhaul of the existing parties or to the creation of a successful party founded on strong reform principles. I believe the only catalyst that could lead to the creation of popular, viable parties would be nothing short of a full blown depression. That being said if there was any time in our history where the stage was being set for the emergence of new political parties the time is now. Seriously now, you can almost feel them starting to dim the houselights...

[ICantSpellDawg]

I agree. I don't see it as a major problem but it is a minor problem that, with some corrections here and there, can be fixed. Most crises result when there are a few minor problems that are not resolved but allowed to get bigger.

Cut it off at the pass, realize that Hispanics are easily integrated into the party and move forward.

[Spino]

It's not just racial minorities the G.O.P. needs to worry about. They're also working very hard to drive away the educated classes with their latest frenzy of anti-intellectualism, as one blogger noted (http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=10&year=2008&base_name=i_cant_really_think_of_a_title) today:


As for the educated class, that's an interesting question. Much like with the conservative wing's mistrust of Hispanics, it's a policy that might have seemed electorally wise a couple years ago but is growing more questionable with every passing election. At some point, the demographic trends predicted by The Emerging Democratic Majority (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743254783?ie=UTF8&tag=ezrkle-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0743254783) will reach sufficient maturity and the GOP's decades-long effort to drive away the educated and young and the different is going to leave them making ever more exclusionary appeals to an ever smaller slice of the electorate.

You may want to read some of the more thoughtful comments posted by critics of the 'non-moonbat variety' who gave that book low scores on Amazon.com before citing a blog post that references that book. And I need physical proof of the 'conservative wing's mistrust of Hispanics' before I embrace that kind of post. The only Latinos that Conservatives in my social circle seem to have a problem with are those who enter this country illegally and qualify for free healthcare of the unofficial variety at hospitals. The biggest problem with the Republican party is that they make virtually no effort to appeal to a target ethnic/racial audience whereas they move heaven and earth to appeal to specific religious groups. This specific lack of ethnic targeting is often confused for apathy or contempt.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Right.

I don't see why more conservative Catholics coming into the country is something I'd be against.

Wanting to keep border crossing legal is not a pretext for my loathing of Hispanics, but rather my support of sensible law.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Condoleeza rice grew up in a middle class home, with Teachers as parents.

She does not represent the majority of black people in this country who have to live in public housing, and have to go to :daisy: public schools, and live in communities where the jobs that exist are not going to be good enough to bring them out of these conditions.


This is not accurate. There are approximately 39.7 million persons who are described as "black" under census data, roughly 31% of whom are minors. Of those roughly 11.5 million children, about 3.4 million live in poverty, with less than 1 million living in severe poverty conditions.

Don't mistake me, these numbers are both saddening and, to be fair to those who argue that some aspects of systemic discrimination still exist, these numbers ARE significantly higher than most other ethnic sub-groupings experience.

However, to argue that a majority of blacks in this country grow up in the "'hood" or that a majority grow up in poverty is factually incorrect. Dr. Rice's upbringing was probably fairly normal. A majority of US blacks are in the middle and working classes, as with the rest of us.

That majority is not, I agree, as large a majority as it is for whites, asians, and others -- and you can argue that it :daisy: well should be -- but it is what it is.

[Koga No Goshi]

You may want to read some of the more thoughtful comments posted by critics of the 'non-moonbat variety' who gave that book low scores on Amazon.com before citing a blog post that references that book. And I need physical proof of the 'conservative wing's mistrust of Hispanics' before I embrace that kind of post. The only Latinos that Conservatives in my social circle seem to have a problem with are those who enter this country illegally and qualify for free healthcare of the unofficial variety at hospitals. The biggest problem with the Republican party is that they make virtually no effort to appeal to a target ethnic/racial audience whereas they move heaven and earth to appeal to specific religious groups. This specific lack of ethnic targeting is often confused for apathy or contempt.

Do you think white, educated New York Republicans represent the dominant mindset on minorities/Hispanics out of the total Republican voting base? I mean, "let the pris'ners pick the fruit!" gets shouted at some of these immigration rallies, Spino.

[Koga No Goshi]

This is not accurate. There are approximately 39.7 million persons who are described as "black" under census data, roughly 31% of whom are minors. Of those roughly 11.5 million children, about 3.4 million live in poverty, with less than 1 million living in severe poverty conditions.

Don't mistake me, these numbers are both saddening and, to be fair to those who argue that some aspects of systemic discrimination still exist, these numbers ARE significantly higher than most other ethnic sub-groupings experience.

However, to argue that a majority of blacks in this country grow up in the "'hood" or that a majority grow up in poverty is factually incorrect. Dr. Rice's upbringing was probably fairly normal. A majority of US blacks are in the middle and working classes, as with the rest of us.

That majority is not, I agree, as large a majority as it is for whites, asians, and others -- and you can argue that it :daisy: well should be -- but it is what it is.

Agreed that middle class blacks are normal. But the salient point is that, as you pointed out, the anchor of poverty-middle class-upper class blacks is way off from the white mainstream. And it should be pointed out that (even in Condaleeza's case, if her anecdotes are true, I never bothered to factcheck them) even middle class blacks are rarely more than 1 or 2 generations from poverty. Certainly by the time you're talking about grandparents or great-grandparents, you are getting into stories of sharecropping and what not for many black families in America.

So, to put up a black face, who says it's your responsibility-- there is no systemic problem in America, I'm not going to lie to you and say that there is just to pander your vote, all you able bodied black people need to get out and vote and stop looking for handouts--- and then act in indignation and with incredulity that you aren't hustling in the black vote en masse.... that's pretty dumb. Anyone who climbed out of poverty grew up with people who tried and failed, or watched their parents try and fail before them. So someone who has done so and quickly forgets the hurdles their family overcame to succeed and dismisses them as credible obstacles for any other family, rings hollow and false to black voters. It's even less credible when coming from a white person on a forum.

[PanzerJaeger]

-Congratulations, you have finally put two and two together. Race and socioeconomic class are frequently tied together in our society. Yes there are poor whites and rich blacks. That's why programs which target race alone don't work well and most racial minorities acknowledge this. Affirmative action, for instance, tends to benefit rich blacks who were probably going to college anyway, and not so much poorer blacks who struggle because they went to substandard schools. It's slapping a bandaid on at 18 for malnourishment suffered from age 6. The problem is, the white conservative solution is simply get rid of it. Not replace it with something better which would reflect socioeconomic class even for poor whites, or even better yet, to fix the quality of public schools nationwide in the first place so that these kinds of disparities aren't becoming lifelong racial fixtures by age 18 and the college level.

-Victim mentalities go both ways. Whites frequently feel themselves victims as well--- I hear all this garbage, that Christianity is oppressed in America, that whites are an oppressed majority. It doesn't take much to make whites start to feel oppressed, especially white males. All it takes is removing unquestionably preferential or exclusive access to the best schools, jobs and opportunities for them to start to feel pushed out and "oppressed" and "reverse-discriminated against."

-The fact that this is a problem with blacks and not the huge numbers of whites doing the same thing is what makes your indignation against it prejudiced in nature. The very same double standard that had us discussing how very different the media coverage would have been... it certainly wouldn't have been a "private matter and no one else's business to judge" if Obama's daughter had been 17 and pregnant. You'd be the last person defending their "family privacy" in that scenario I expect. You would think that welfare, poverty, crime, teenage pregnancy or any other social problem actually isn't a problem until a black or hispanic person is doing it. Yet whites do it every single day.

-What's the angry white male excuse for sucking at life? What's the excuse for all those inbred hicks at Palin rallies yelling racial comments or violent comments? Or all those white people with five kids by three dads on Jerry Springer? You keep looking at only one side of the coin here.

-Black people themselves will tell you stories about black people they blame for their own situations. A self-righteous angry white guy on a forum complaining about how blacks alone are the only group singled out for the privilege of groupblame for their condition in our society has no credibility especially when the things you condemn them for can be equally applied to many of your own race. However, your question implies an assumption that everything that happens to you, and everything

-They don't? When whites get born into trash and stay there, they seem quick to show up for rallies to blame it all on the Mexicans, or the welfare queens (who are always mysteriously black.)

I will lump all of these together as they make essentially the same point: All my criticisms towards the black community could be applied to the other races.

Well I've got some good news. Thats exactly my point!

You argued that Condi Rice did not adequately represent the "black experience" because of her background and socioeconomic status. My point is that the "black experience" you describe is a construct of the Left. As Seamus highlighted, the reality is that being black in America doesn't translate into any social class or political persuasion.

Poverty in this nation doesn't discriminate, and for liberals to promote the idea that the only valid black experience in America comes from the ghetto and that that experience somehow justifies lower expectations from them (and of them) is completely counter-productive; unless one is intent on creating dependence.

Think about it. It has been ingrained in many black people that personal failure is due to the abstract "white man" holding them back. This is unique among minorities in America- and certainly not helpful.



Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh and O'Reilly don't give you an awareness of the realities of the black community, btw.

Must you? I'm not going to get into the sad "how many black friends I have versus how many you have" game, but I'm confident that my constant interaction with them is sufficient to draw conclusions.



How many people want to murder McCain because he's Irish? Vs. how many people want Obama killed because he's black?

This is what your argument has come to? :dizzy2:

The numbers for either are so incredibly tiny compared to the population that to draw any inference from them would be asinine.

[Koga No Goshi]

I will lump all of these together as they make essentially the same point: All my criticisms towards the black community could be applied to the other races.

Well I've got some good news. Thats exactly my point!

You argued that Condi Rice did not adequately represent the "black experience" because of her background and socioeconomic status. My point is that the "black experience" you describe is a construct of the Left. As Seamus highlighted, the reality is that being black in America doesn't translate into any social class or political persuasion.

Poverty in this nation doesn't discriminate, and for liberals to promote the idea that the only valid black experience in America comes from the ghetto and that that experience somehow justifies lower expectations from them (and of them) is completely counter-productive; unless one is intent on creating dependence.

Think about it. It has been ingrained in many black people that personal failure is due to the abstract "white man" holding them back. This is unique among minorities in America- and certainly not helpful.

Must you? I'm not going to get into the sad "how many black friends I have versus how many you have" game, but I'm confident that my constant interaction with them is sufficient to draw conclusions.

This is what your argument has come to? :dizzy2:

The numbers for either are so incredibly tiny compared to the population that to draw any inference from them would be asinine.

Did Obama come from a ghetto? He was poor, but he was raised in Hawaii and Kansas. Hardly the topic of a stereotypical Spike Lee Oakland movie. And when he talks about financial struggles in his family you notice he never designates "and on my black side this, and my white side that...", you can't even tell what side of his family he's talking about much of the time.

I have no idea where you get these ideas like black people are just passive sheep and the left has constructed some big brainwashing conspiracy theory and poured it into their collective heads. Black people can look, observe, experience, see for themselves and speak for themselves and frequently do at a volume most whites seem uncomfortable with. The fact that your argument consistently denies them any agency whatsoever besides whatever partisan left-wing operatives have told them rankles and illuminates the same sneeringly dismissive attitude your original post contained. Now, the fact that what black people see and experience for themselves, and talk about, and vote in reflection of, happens to not help your party at all. Maybe instead of condemning them for being brainless beggars looking for handouts you would do better to ask what it is about your party that turns them off so much. But it is clear you are of the opinion that only someone really stupid or looking for a free ride wouldn't already be Republican, so you invent this offensive theory about why blacks are just irrationally against Reps and engage in no critical thought whatsoever. Good luck changing the fact of the Republican party with that line of thought.

And no, it is QUITE clear to me that whatever contact you have had with black people has not taught you to get off your white horse and listen to the issue from some perspective other than one which would justify and validate a zero-sum white Republican worldview.

Have you ever even LISTENED to MLK Jr.'s speeches? He would be in a much better position than anyone today to actually go and just blame it all on the white man. But he talked about poverty as an overarching issue, tied with race in the case of black people, but not just a black issue. And he talked about opportunity, and jobs, and the economy, and what the Vietnam War was doing to our ability to help reform poverty and lack of opportunity at home. It is clear to me you've never listened to the actual message, either from black people themselves or from the Civil Rights Movement. It is clear you have only listened to people who found ways to attack and discredit it after the fact, to continue justifying the very same political ideology you yourself follow.

[KarlXII]

Colin Powell was George Bush's homeboy, if I recall. I'm sure Condi is hiding some bling in her office. I would know, i've shouted at a few black men myself, my interactins with them have given me more understanding than you, I'm better, Republicans can do no wrong. :juggle2:



:wall: :2thumbsup:

[Mangudai]

America will always re-establish political balance 50/50, even if conservatives have to give up some of their key principles.

Look at Canada. They have a conservative party, and they have some ideological conservatives. But the party line is moderate by US standards. Universal health care, anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, and strong gun rights will not fly in Canada, so the conservatives are reduced to running on low spending, tough on crime, etc.

[Louis VI the Fat]

America will always re-establish political balance 50/50, even if conservatives have to give up some of their key principles.That is spot on, I'd say. :idea2:

Bi-polarism is a mechanism of it's own. And the American political system almost inevitably leads to bi-partisanism.

[AlexanderSextus]

This is not accurate. There are approximately 39.7 million persons who are described as "black" under census data, roughly 31% of whom are minors. Of those roughly 11.5 million children, about 3.4 million live in poverty, with less than 1 million living in severe poverty conditions.

Don't mistake me, these numbers are both saddening and, to be fair to those who argue that some aspects of systemic discrimination still exist, these numbers ARE significantly higher than most other ethnic sub-groupings experience.

However, to argue that a majority of blacks in this country grow up in the "'hood" or that a majority grow up in poverty is factually incorrect. Dr. Rice's upbringing was probably fairly normal. A majority of US blacks are in the middle and working classes, as with the rest of us.

That majority is not, I agree, as large a majority as it is for whites, asians, and others -- and you can argue that it :daisy: well should be -- but it is what it is.


alright, i stand corrected, but like you said it still aint good enough.

[AlexanderSextus]

That little nugget of ghetto wisdom is certainly heartwarming, but it also kind of makes my point. Despite some success, your friend seems unwilling to get out of “the hood” or to even learn proper English. When he tries to advance in his career, but cannot articulate during a job interview, is that failure going to be because he is black or because he didn't invest properly in himself? The “black experience” is now so ingrained, many aren’t willing to do what it takes to succeed, and don’t really have any desire to either.

you are a master of point missing.

1.He is still in the hood because now he doesnt need to leave. He wanted out before his family was doing as good as they are now.

2. If I said he's the manager of hs store at the mall, obviously he was articulate enough to pass the entry level interview and actually got several promotions.

3. maybe did you ever think that those people that were "perfectly able-bodied people that sat at home all day getting free meals" simply didnt have anywhere to work in their community, meaning that there were no jobs there for them to fill????

[ICantSpellDawg]

Hey, remember when there was all this talk about the Democrats shriveling up and losing all power because of the loss of both houses and the Executive? Remember how stupid that was? This is a two party system, the G.O.P. needs reform and needs to become more about ideas and plans. No big deal - the Dems with squander their power when people realize how insane and weak they are and the merry-go-round will keep going.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Right, the amount of power the republican party will have will depend entirely on what the democrats do. With the economy as it is and the bailout bills, it will be tough to accomplish much. One possibility is that barack remains popular but that the republicans slowly regain control of congress.