Newbie question, rushes

[Mithrandir]

What's a rush ?
I understand what it is in "normal" rts's, like Warcraft f.e., in MTW ,does it mean inmediately attacking before the enemy has time to properly set up his/hers (yea right, hers :rolleyes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif troops?

Thanks,
-Mithrandir-

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Online be my name Glorfindel. Lord of the Eldar.

[Soapyfrog]

A "rush" is where the defending player gets his ass kicked so thoroughly that he feels the need to whine endlessly to compensate for his lack of prowess.

[Mithrandir]

I asked normal, so how about a normal answer ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif.

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Online be my name Glorfindel. Lord of the Eldar.

[Soapyfrog]

A rush is a battle in which the rusher picks predominantly melee troops like FMAA, Order Foot, Feudal and Chiv sergeants, pumps up valour, and immediately moves to the attack.

The theory is that ranged units do not have the "stopping power" to inflict significant casualties before melee is joined, and thus quickly become a liability. Likewise, good cavalry at it's high price does not stand up to high valour spear troops.

This is called a rush because... um... becuase... er... I don't know why it is called a rush, since everyone gets to choose their positions before the battle anyway...

[+DOC+]

lol, like your answers Soapy. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

A rush army will often solely consist of the same type of unit (i.e. all cav, all spears, etc), and usually involves a very forwardly placed army and an immediate attack.

If these prove successful more often than not this leads to the "blah blah blah is so overpowered...." type statements.

The fact is rushes will always work under certain circumstances, especially if the defender is caught unawares or has brought the "paper to the scissors" type troops.

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=MizuDoc=

[Didz]

I would also argue that a rush is predominantly a tactic which relies soley on the choice of a dominant troop type rather than tactical skill to achieve victory.

e.g. The rusher does not concern themselves with out manouvring his opponent but merely charges in and relies upon the fact that a mass of troop type X will always beat a mix of troop type A,B,C & D.

Thus in STW one used to get rushes based on low honour Warrior Monks or High Honour Ashigaru (peasant spearmen).

So I assume the MTW equivalent would be an rush based on CMAA or Highland Clansmen.


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Didz
Fortis balore et armis

[1dread1lahll]

What the others have said I agree... a rush army is a directional army (no missile units) all meele... a balanced army would have missiles; foot and cav...with a 16 unit limit if you take a balanced army your opponent a rush;.... your meele are out numbered...the other guy will not wait for your missiles to inflict damage but attack right away....Many (myself included) consider the rush a cheap tactic..Ive found though that Medieval deals better with it than shogun did..its harder to be a effective rusher

[tootee]

A rush is what the word says.. rush. Doesnt concern with what army you have. It main purpose is to rush in to attack at such speed and coordination that the opponent is overwhelmed because he is unable to react as fast or think as fast. One can rush with even a balance army and be effective. A rush is where there is no missile duel prior to full contact.

A good rush is not about merely charging headlong into the enemy w/o bothering about flanking. A rush is not a cheap tactic; it is as good as any other tactics.

In olden STW, there is the all monk rush.. that is exploiting the unbalance in the wm.. not fun and in this case is a cheapo maybe.

Everyone can charge.. not many can rush.. and fewer still can rush effectively with any army.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
loyal roach of Clan S.G. (http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com)
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 11-07-2002).]

[Puzz3D]

Because of the way morale penalties and boosts work, you should keep your army together and fighting as a coordinated whole. When it comes time to charge, whether early or later in the battle, you want to use all your units. Good unit management is very important, and bunching up is not good because the morale penalties you inflict on enemy units is reduced and a bunch can be more easily flanked.

[anymapkoku]

Materlahll I happen to think you're a terrible palyer who I nearly beat in a 1vs2 when my ally dropped. What you really mean is that YOU don't like rushing. Rushing isn't cheap just because you you say so. Contrary to what other ignorant and stupid people in this thread have posted, it was very easy to succesfully rush in 1.0 with a balanced army of 4 ranged/4 shock/4spears and 4 cav. I did it several times even vs wolf clan and other relatively decent players.
Rushing is like a mouthwash. Eliminates 99.99% of newbies.
Just because you can't win with a non rush army doesn't mean rushing is cheap.
I also almost never rushed in 1.0 and won almost everytime except for an occassional loss to wolf clan now and then. During 1.0's last days, I never used more than 4 spears/swords and had minimum of 4 ranged/4cav and won over 90% of the time vs rushers. Maybe you're bad with balanced armies but balanced armies aren't bad.

[zipnar]

if you think "rushing" is cheap and you always die...then by God, rush back.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

rushing is fine until it becomes clear that it becomes the only succesfull tactic, which would mean the various unittypes arnet balanced enough.

there are 2 type of rushes
the normal rush an the smart rush.
the normal rush conists of a select all and point at the enemies units, the smart rush is better coordinated, the front is better mantained and units are better moved.

and 2 other types of rushes
the pregame-intended rush and the ingame necessarry rush. the pregame rush can be used to outgamble the enemy, the ingame rushis usefull when ur outshot and u have to attack or u die by archerey. or u rush to finish the enemy off cuz it took already too long.

in old shog u could stop a rush with a solid walls and some archery since the best combatinf was unprotected by armoury, its different in twm. i am sure that people find a combatarmy that cant be stopped by mixed armies for the simple fact that u cant inflict enuf damage with an horsearcher unit before the enemy is upon u.

ps anymapkoku plz drop a message at our wolves den to set some battles between some wolves and u. and can u leave also your online name in that post.

[Cheetah]

IMHO rush implies an immediate attack as Soapyfrog pointed out, but it doesn't implies that you should charge the enemy lines head on. That is, it is not necessarily a "cheap" tactic. I guess the problem is that there are different rush types but usually people tend to identify the "rush" with it is simplest and probably least efficient mode. To start with, as Magy said, there are the "normal" and the "smart" rush. IMHO within the normal there are at least two basic types, the "one-point" rush and the "broad" (or "double-alt-click") rush.
In case of the ideal "one-point" rush the aim of the rusher is to break one unit of the opponent's army by attacking it head-on with as many units as possible. Ideally this would be his entire army but of course it is never possible. This is the rush when you see the rusher's army in a big bunch attacking one point of his opponent's line. IMHO this is a newbie rush (I hope I don't hurt anyone http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif ), and as Yuuki pointed out it is very easy to defeat. You have to reinforce the attacked point with 2 or 3 good defensive units and then flank and rear the attacker. The only successful one-point rush which I have seen was in STW/MI in heavy rain. Here in MTW I have not seen a single successful one-point rush.
The "broad" rush is a bit advanced than the previous one but IMHO it is still a newbie thing. In this case the attacker lines up his troops in a broad front (in most of the cases this is as broad as the defenders line) and then double-alt-clicks behind the opponent's line (hence the other name). The idea is to break the defenders first line of defense with this simultaneous onslaught. Though this type of rush has a higher chance of success than the previous one it still can be easily countered. First, reinforce your first line units, so that you can be sure that they won't break on contact, and then flank/ rear the rusher who usually has no reserve.
IMHO most of the players have these two types of rush in mind when they talk about "rush", however, as Magy noted you can rush in a smart way, seeking for flank/rear attacks in a same way as under any other circumstances. IMHO a good rusher would tie down one flank with a few units and concentrate his main force on the other flank , or something like this http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif so, I don't think that this last type is a "cheap" tactic, and I consider it as legitimate as any other tactics in the game.
Of course, the first two types are legitimate as well, but they are indeed "cheap" and not just cheap but self-defeating as well !!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[hoom]

Did anyone ever do a rush in real medieval battle?
I think so.

It is the logical way to avoid heavy losses to powerful, slow reload missile troops.

In Single Player I do not sit there and let my army get mashed by defending archers.
No, I get formed up just out of range then charge hoping to cross the range within as few volleys as possible.

[Rosacrux]

In SP "rush" is something completely different, though: Start cranking out low-level troops (spearmen, militia, militia seargents, byz inf, AUMs - depending on the faction you are playing with) and start rushing the nearby enemies.

Works like Risk or sort of a "domino effect". Is very succesful when done properly and works especially with factions who start out with good generals and a couple of build up provinces.

Also, it takes away all the fun from the game. A very crappy way to win, even if succesful.

BTW if you have some of those lethal gerbils with you, it may work wonders http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Rosacrux (edited 11-08-2002).]