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InsaneApache
10-14-2008, 10:49
I just read in interestng article in the Gruniad about global warning.

Have you noticed how environmental campaigners almost inevitably say that not only is global warming happening and bad, but also that what we are seeing is even worse than expected?

This is odd, because any reasonable understanding of how science proceeds would expect that, as we refine our knowledge, we find that things are sometimes worse and sometimes better than we expected, and that the most likely distribution would be about 50-50. Environmental campaigners, however, almost invariably see it as 100-0.

If we are regularly being surprised in just one direction, if our models get blindsided by an ever-worsening reality, that does not bode well for our scientific approach. Indeed, one can argue that if the models constantly get something wrong, it is probably because the models are wrong. And if we cannot trust our models, we cannot know what policy action to take if we want to make a difference.

Yet, if new facts constantly show us that the consequences of climate change are getting worse and worse, high-minded arguments about the scientific method might not carry much weight. Certainly, this seems to be the prevailing bet in the spin on global warming. It is, again, worse than we thought, and, despite our failing models, we will gamble on knowing just what to do: cut CO2 emissions dramatically.

But it is simply not correct that climate data are systematically worse than expected; in many respects, they are spot on, or even better than expected. That we hear otherwise is an indication of the media's addiction to worst-case stories, but that makes a poor foundation for smart policies.

The most obvious point about global warming is that the planet is heating up. It has warmed about 1C (1.8F) over the past century, and is predicted by the United Nations' climate panel (IPCC) to warm between 1.6-3.8C (2.9-6.8F) during this century, mainly owing to increased CO2. An average of all 38 available standard runs from the IPCC shows that models expect a temperature increase in this decade of about 0.2C.

But this is not at all what we have seen. And this is true for all surface temperature measures, and even more so for both satellite measures. Temperatures in this decade have not been worse than expected; in fact, they have not even been increasing. They have actually decreased by between 0.01 and 0.1C per year. On the most important indicator of global warming, temperature development, we ought to hear that the data are actually much better than expected.

Likewise, and arguably much more importantly, the heat content of the world's oceans has been dropping for the past four years where we have measurements. Whereas energy in terms of temperature can disappear relatively easily from the light atmosphere, it is unclear where the heat from global warming should have gone – and certainly this is again much better than expected.

We hear constantly about how the Arctic sea ice is disappearing faster than expected, and this is true. But most serious scientists also allow that global warming is only part of the explanation. Another part is that the so-called Arctic oscillation of wind patterns over the Arctic Ocean is now in a state that it does not allow build-up of old ice, but immediately flushes most ice into the North Atlantic.

More importantly, we rarely hear that the Antarctic sea ice is not only not declining, but is above average for the past year. IPCC models would expect declining sea ice in both hemispheres but, whereas the Arctic is doing worse than expected, Antarctica is doing better.

Ironically, the Associated Press, along with many other news outlets, told us in 2007 that the "Arctic is screaming," and that the Northwest Passage was open "for the first time in recorded history." Yet the BBC reported in 2000 that the fabled Northwest Passage was already without ice.

We are constantly inundated with stories of how sea levels will rise, and how one study after another finds that it will be much worse than what the IPCC predicts. But most models find results within the IPCC range of a sea-level increase of 18-59cm (7-23in) this century. This is of course why the thousands of IPCC scientists projected that range. Yet studies claiming one metre or more obviously make for better headlines.

Since 1992, we have had satellites measuring the rise in global sea levels, and they have shown a stable increase of 3.2mm per year (1/8 of an inch) – spot on compared to the IPCC projection. Moreover, over the last two years, sea levels have not increased at all – actually, they show a slight drop. Should we not be told that this is much better than expected?

Hurricanes were the stock image of Al Gore's famous film on climate change, and certainly the United States was battered in 2004 and 2005, leading to wild claims of ever stronger and costlier storms in the future. But in the two years since, the costs have been well below average, virtually disappearing in 2006. That is definitely better than expected.

Gore quoted MIT hurricane researcher Kerry Emmanuel to support an alleged scientific consensus that global warming is making hurricanes much more damaging. But Emmanuel has now published a new study showing that even in a dramatically warming world, hurricane frequency and intensity may not substantially rise during the next two centuries. That conclusion did not get much exposure in the media.

Of course, not all things are less bad than we thought. But one-sided exaggeration is not the way forward. We urgently need balance if we are to make sensible choices.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/14/climatechange-scienceofclimatechange

One of the best I've read for quite some time. I have mixed feelings about 'climate change'. On one hand, if true, is there really anything we can practically do about it, given that China and India are coming up fast on the inside rail.

One the other hand I'm incredibly suspicious of ways that some governments act. For instance, in the UK our Great Leader wants to tax older cars, 7 years and more, off the road. Looks good at first glance, never mind the hit that the poorest in society get, but then if you look at the carbon footprint impressed when a new car is built it is a nonsense.

The impression I get is that governments use climate change as a way of increasing taxes. After all more taxation will make no impact on this problem, all it will achieve is to make the poorest in society walk everywhere.

I also read somewhere that sea temperatures are actually falling, at least since 1997. So is it a real threat to planet earth, or just a smokescreen jumped on by various governments to tax and spend more?

Louis VI the Fat
10-14-2008, 11:54
Give us a link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/14/climatechange-scienceofclimatechange), love!

The article is written by Bjørn Lomborg. A Dane who, just like some pro-global warmists, makes a killer income from global warming: in his case, by warning that we are needlessly alarmed about it.

However, not the messenger, but the message is decisive in the end. I have two remarks to add, each a reply to a part of your two-fold question - which to me are not mutually exclusive, not a matter of either/or, but of and/and.

The first, repeating my usual thoughts about global warming: it is happening, it is partly natural, partly man-made. This distinction is unclear. Our climate models are not refined enough to make a decisive predicition. Global Warming is often a cult. Denying Global Warming is often a cynical lobby.

The second, the political dynamics. For this, it is not even important whether or not Global Warming is happening. Companies and special interest piggies alway scramble to feast on the infinite government trough. After 9-11, companies made a killing from the terrorist scare. Some went so far as to try to get government funded survival packs for all citizens: gas masks, lamps, food stocks. They had every incentive to lobby for alarmist response to terrorism.

Likewise, from the tree-huggin' fringe group to the corporate giant, there is a killing to be made from Global Warming. In your example, the car industry has a big incentive to push for taking cars off the road after seven years.
A government, for it's part, must look decisive. It must look like it's acting at all times. Can't sit back and do nothing. This demand makes it vulnerable to lobbyists, opportunists, or, less cynical, alarmists or simply the demands of politicians' constituencies.

(Sadly, we are also living in a time of political extremism and polarisation. A calm, careful assesment of a problem coupled with a search for a balanced and meaningful long-term response doesn't win anyone votes. Either, a politician must pander to one end of the extreme: 'We're doomed!! We need to spend billions and act NOW!!', or he must pander to the other extreme: 'Lies! Filthy lies! There is no environmentla problem!!', or he must refrain altogether from adopting the issue of Global Warming lest he'll look like an indecisive, flip-flopping fool.)


So, part one, "is it a real threat to planet earth" - yes.
and part two, "...or a smokescreen jumped on by various governments to tax and spend more?" - also yes. Though not a deliberate, coordinated smokescreen/scam.

Fragony
10-14-2008, 14:50
or just a smokescreen jumped on by various governments to tax and spend more?

that.

LittleGrizzly
10-14-2008, 15:03
The cult known as anti global warming is strong and its lies are impervious to logic and reason, they have a mountain of backers each with degrees and phd's and lots of other fancy qaulifications (but never to do with actual climate change) these people would rather believe in a conspiracy of goverments and scientists then put themselves and thier precious industry through a little disciplined carbon emissions cutting...

Sorry yes i am just here to moan...

KukriKhan
10-14-2008, 15:04
Will we (in the west) abandon, or put on a back-burner (if you will allow) all this in favor of fixing the train-wreck that seems to be our economies? If we're gonna spend trillions and quadrillions propping up bad bets and deadbeat banks, how can we afford r&d on climate change?

Louis VI the Fat
10-14-2008, 16:39
If we're gonna spend trillions and quadrillions propping up bad bets and deadbeat banks, how can we afford r&d on climate change?We can afford billions on junk food and superhero movie cinema tickets. So I'd say that we can afford to dedicate some of our resources to the environment as well. Actually, no, the deal is, that we can not afford to not devote the necessary resources to the environment. The sustainability of our societies depends on it.
The more interesting question is about the proper, and efficient, allocation of resources for the environment.

I'm currently reading 'Collapse' by Jared Diamond. :book:
Surprisingly, he states that non-sustainable societies in the past proved themselves to be...non-sutainable. They collapsed. Frighteningly, usually after a tipping point was reached, after which they collapsed rather suddenly, and usually brutally. It is possible.

Nobody has a perfect model of the earth's climate or ecological environments. Nobody has a perfect model of the economy either. Either, however, can collapse. What can't go on forever, has a tendency to not go on forever. So the question is: are our societies environmentally sustainable? No, probably not. Does this mean that, unless action is taken, they really can't sustain themselves in an unsustainable way? Yes.

Fragony
10-14-2008, 16:49
The cult known as anti global warming-
is strong and its lies are impervious to logic and reason-
they have a mountain of backers- each with degrees and phd's- and lots of other fancy-

qaulifications - (repeat)

these people would rather believe- in a conspiracy of goverments and scientists- then put themselves- and thier precious industry through a little disciplined carbon emissions cutting...

Sorry yes i am just here to moan...

When you could have been rapping instead, made you a start

gaelic cowboy
10-14-2008, 17:37
I have delved into this website a few times its very cluttered so appologies

http://www.dieoff.org/

But main point seems to be there is too many of us living too well to sustain at far too cheaply a rate because of oil and population growth.

Unforunatly I cant claim its findings are even true but it does seem to correlat nicely

Too Many People X Cheap Oil = Unsustainable Economic Future.

Now the worm is turning and big time high oil price X high population X low credit / high debt = banjaxed

As regards global warming funnily enough I believe its real but I also believe we in West as in Europe and US are pretty well set up to face its effects.

People in West have money with which to move they can change jobs of which many do not require a stable climate to function.
However Africa people live in area prone to flooding drought and they cant go nowhere else and they dont have any money to rebuild.

Rhyfelwyr
10-14-2008, 17:48
I watched an interesting documentary on the BBC a few days ago. As far as I can see there is no denying that global warming is happening, however it seems that it could be natural and the evidence suggesting its caused by humans doesn't seem to be particularly strong.

For example, at periods in the past the climate has changed by five celcius in one year! There are many such examples of this happening on varying timescales as measured by comparing the levels of compression of ice or something along those lines.

Also these findings match with the findings of different species and when they go extinct in areas etc.

Fragony
10-14-2008, 19:04
Not a serious scientist in the world who really believes it's man-made just an easy way to get funds to do real research, that is one of the plusses this hoax does spawn innovation, the CO2 theory is so shaky it could be used as an alternative means of getting energy if we find a way to capitalise on it's rediculousness, after we have used all frauds as biomass that is.

Kadagar_AV
10-14-2008, 19:25
Not a serious scientist in the world who really believes it's man-made just an easy way to get funds to do real research, that is one of the plusses this hoax does spawn innovation, the CO2 theory is so shaky it could be used as an alternative means of getting energy if we find a way to capitalise on it's rediculousness, after we have used all frauds as biomass that is.

Would be interesting to see some sources on these claims...

Fragony
10-14-2008, 19:38
Would be interesting to see some sources on these claims...

Ow god there are enough to power a small country probably, google is your friend

Kadagar_AV
10-14-2008, 19:53
*rolleyes*

Sigurd
10-14-2008, 20:19
I wish for omniscience every day, but sadly my wish is not granted.
About the global warming issue...
I don't know. Greenland was called greenland for a reason you know. :mean:

Rhyfelwyr
10-14-2008, 20:26
I don't know. Greenland was called greenland for a reason you know. :mean:

I always wondered about that. Maybe the Norse were being ironic?

Seamus Fermanagh
10-14-2008, 20:28
I'm still searching for a good way to combine this topic, Global Warming, with Israel-Palestine, Gun Control and Abortion into one meta-topic. :yes:

If successful, I believe that I can cause the Backroom to implode, generating a self-sustaining sigularity that could be used to power steam turbines and solve global electric power needs for the better part of a century.

Of course, it is likely that our Backroom mods would spontaneously combust during the process, but you know the old saw about omelets and eggs.

gaelic cowboy
10-14-2008, 21:10
I'm still searching for a good way to combine this topic, Global Warming, with Israel-Palestine, Gun Control and Abortion into one meta-topic. :yes:

If successful, I believe that I can cause the Backroom to implode, generating a self-sustaining sigularity that could be used to power steam turbines and solve global electric power needs for the better part of a century.

Of course, it is likely that our Backroom mods would spontaneously combust during the process, but you know the old saw about omelets and eggs.

It shall henceforth be called the the Thread of everything under the Sun or TOEUTS

The world will at that moment cease to exist as we all turn into pure energy effectively Gods
I think I will be a naughty God how about you infinite wine women and song till judgement day:clown:

CrossLOPER
10-14-2008, 21:12
Ow god there are enough to power a small country probably, google is your friend
Dude, you have to teach me how to troll without getting a warning.

Fragony
10-14-2008, 21:20
Dude, you have to teach me how to troll without getting a warning.

Usually I would say bake cakes but now I don't knnow

King Henry V
10-14-2008, 21:39
I always wondered about that. Maybe the Norse were being ironic?

The name Greenland is left over from the Mediaeval warming period, when, by all accounts, the climate in Europe and the North Atlantic was warmer than it is now. Southern England had a fairly substantial wine growing industry and Iceland could sustain crops quite easily, something which would change after the Little Ice Age.

All this however does not necessarily undermine the theory of man-made global warming: how do we know that this time it is purely a natural phenomenon.

Rhyfelwyr
10-14-2008, 22:12
All this however does not necessarily undermine the theory of man-made global warming: how do we know that this time it is purely a natural phenomenon.

That's the thing. It's so complicated not even the scientists seem to have reached a concensues (at least on the causes), and if they can't work it out how are we supposed to? :dizzy2:

Don Corleone
10-14-2008, 22:16
I hate to be a cynic, but there are a LOT of people making money off of global warming. Just look at flourescent light-bulbs. Trust me, all that mercury vapor in the landfills is not good for the environment, but I don't see that slowing anybody down....

I think its incumbent on all of us to be ecologists and live in harmony with nature to the best of our ability, regardless of whether our carbon manipulating activities are inducing global warming or not. But I don't think we should just buy into all the foolish 'going green' strategies being sold either, though there are a lot of good ones.

I didn't mean to 'go-green', but I just converted to biomass for a heating source. Just goes to show you, figure out what the right way to go is and make it profitable for people to do it....

Xiahou
10-14-2008, 22:26
I didn't mean to 'go-green', but I just converted to biomass for a heating source.You mean a wood burner? :beam:

Gaius Scribonius Curio
10-15-2008, 03:44
The name Greenland is left over from the Mediaeval warming period, when, by all accounts, the climate in Europe and the North Atlantic was warmer than it is now. Southern England had a fairly substantial wine growing industry and Iceland could sustain crops quite easily, something which would change after the Little Ice Age.

All this however does not necessarily undermine the theory of man-made global warming: how do we know that this time it is purely a natural phenomenon.

What he said. Global temparatures do fluctuate over time, and one of the key examples of this is Greenland which had to later be abandoned due to the change in temperature.

Of course that said this does not exclude the probability that Man has an impact on it.

In short, Global warming is happening, but we know nowhere near enough about it.

JR-
10-15-2008, 10:48
I just read in interestng article in the Gruniad about global warning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/14/climatechange-scienceofclimatechange

One of the best I've read for quite some time. I have mixed feelings about 'climate change'. On one hand, if true, is there really anything we can practically do about it, given that China and India are coming up fast on the inside rail.

One the other hand I'm incredibly suspicious of ways that some governments act. For instance, in the UK our Great Leader wants to tax older cars, 7 years and more, off the road. Looks good at first glance, never mind the hit that the poorest in society get, but then if you look at the carbon footprint impressed when a new car is built it is a nonsense.

The impression I get is that governments use climate change as a way of increasing taxes. After all more taxation will make no impact on this problem, all it will achieve is to make the poorest in society walk everywhere.

I also read somewhere that sea temperatures are actually falling, at least since 1997. So is it a real threat to planet earth, or just a smokescreen jumped on by various governments to tax and spend more?

good article, surpising for the grauniad.

as to my opinion, well it has been stated in my profile for some time: "Global Warming: Yes it is happening anyway as a natural phenomenon, and yes some portion is anthropogenic, but as yet the science is way too flakey to dedicate a large portion of the worlds future economic potential to what may turn out to be a case of Canutes tides. Adapt or die!"

if the guardian is publishing articles like this then maybe the rapture phase of the AGW religion really isn passing.

CountArach
10-15-2008, 10:59
Ow god there are enough to power a small country probably, google is your friend
Yeah, but you're probably wrong.

Fragony
10-15-2008, 11:24
Yeah, but you're probably wrong.

Since temperatures aren't rising I am probably right. Latest gem, heavily funded scientist here predicted a rise of 6 meter of the sea level, 6 meters on a global level, the ocean being 2/3 of the world, serious and in consequence unheard scientists put that straight by pointing out that the north and southpole would have to cover the entire earth for such a rise, yet it's once again the hymn of the day of watermelons, cultists and polarbear-fetists.

CountArach
10-15-2008, 11:36
yet it's once again the hymn of the day of watermelons, cultists and polarbear-fetists.
You have to admit. Polar bears are pretty hot.

Anyway, I won't get involved because debating Global Warming on the Internet is like banging your head on a wall while someone hits you over the back with a cactus.

Fragony
10-15-2008, 11:53
You have to admit. Polar bears are pretty hot.

Polar bears are homocidal maniacs that will attack you on sight, it are foul creatures tricking you into thinking they are cute. Besides, they are racists, ever seen a black bear on the northpole? All gone.

CountArach
10-15-2008, 12:02
Polar bears are homocidal maniacs that will attack you on sight, it are foul creatures tricking you into thinking they are cute. Besides, they are racists, ever seen a black bear on the northpole? All gone.
I can't argue with that logic :laugh4:

Husar
10-15-2008, 12:16
Meanwhile, sun activity is at a low, a low that should happen now but it's lower than usual, maybe global warming will keep us warm a few years more when our star burns out, before it explodes or we inevitably freeze or something.

Idaho
10-15-2008, 22:11
Sorry but the standard of 'debate' on this thread is very poor. Fragony especially. Citing the possible results of a possible Google search as debunking all global warming theory? Yeah - top stuff.

95% of the serious science says it's happening. Models of what will happen are very speculative. Either a big change or small change. A bad change or a mixed change. And because noone really wants to face it we are just going to have to suck it and see. A bit like the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and the success of global capitalism that the same usual bunch of orgahs were so convinced of.

Fragony
10-16-2008, 07:44
Of course it's poor there is nothing to discuss, hoax.

Koga No Goshi
10-16-2008, 08:40
It must be nice, being SO certain about everything with so little actual knowledge to back it up besides strong opinion.

Fragony
10-16-2008, 09:01
Word, I really don't understand these people.

Idaho
10-16-2008, 10:11
It must be nice, being SO certain about everything with so little actual knowledge to back it up besides strong opinion.

We should really only allow the more intellectually able posters to participate in some of these debates.

Fragony
10-16-2008, 10:20
We should really only allow the more intellectually able posters to participate in some of these debates.

An old fashioned left direct!

awesome.

Personally I find it rediculous that climate-fundamentalists are allowed to have an opinion. Just another apocalyps for those don't can't do without religion.

HAIL GLOBAL WARMING (and xenu)

Banquo's Ghost
10-16-2008, 10:51
We appear to have run out of any appetite for actual debate on this subject, and simply resort to raising the temperature of the thread with hot air to a point where reason drowns under a tide of personal acrimony.

Since Seamus' Theory of Unified Contention has yet to be realised (despite Fragony's brave attempt to fire up the Large Moderator Collider) this thread is closed pending evidence of man-made intellectual discourse.

:closed: