NCO armament?

[Sheogorath]

I'm given to understand that many nations, up until the Napoleonic wars, armed their NCO's with halberds or other polearms, more as a means of beating men into line than with any kind of killing intent, but will we be seeing that in the game?
Thus far it looks like unit commanders are armed with swords, which I suppose might reflect them ditching their unwieldy and heavy polearms or something a bit more practical, but it'd still be a nice touch.

[Mailman653]

Maybe early units still carry them.

[Nelson]

Polearms made an NCO or an officer easier for his men to spot. They also alleviated the need to tend to a firelock while still arming him for melee with something having at least a bayonet’s reach.

His job was running his platoon not loading and firing. I hope we see polearms in the game too.

[Marius Dynamite]

Out of interest, at what point did it become unacceptable to aim for an officer in the field, or is that a myth?

[therifleman]

I would assume pole arms or a spear of some sort of some sort. Or possibly a pistol?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I thought I saw halberds for NCO's in a screenshot or maybe that ground battles trailer.

[rajpoot]

Out of interest, at what point did it become unacceptable to aim for an officer in the field, or is that a myth?

I never understood that bit either, how can it be wrong to kill an enemy if killing him helps put the rest of the unit in a state of confusion.........it ought to be the very first thing any man does.

[PBI]

Ah, because he is a gentleman, and killing another gentleman would be murder.

By contrast, killing the peasants he leads is sport.

[Sabuti]

The latest trailer on the ETW site, land battles 2/5, shows the officers of the units fighting with swords and one shooting a pistol.

[rajpoot]

Ah, because he is a gentleman, and killing another gentleman would be murder.

By contrast, killing the peasants he leads is sport.

But the peasants ought to kill the gentleman all the same shouldn't they?

And it sounds kind of, err........not reasonable, that they don't kill each other just because honour forbids it........I mean, I don't think even medieval knights were that chivalrous and code following.

[PBI]

More seriously, I suspect it was probably more just that muskets were so inaccurate that attempting to aim for any particular man in a formation was pretty much a waste of ammunition, hence it made more sense to order the men to just aim for the big mass of enemy soldiers, in the hope that even if you didn't hit the guy you were aiming for, you might hit the guy next to him. I suspect that shooting at officers was probably considered not so much unsporting or dishonourable as just impractical.

I wonder if this was different for the skirmisher battalions armed with rifles? Did they attempt to target officers?

I believe though that this was one of the problems faced by the British at the Somme; the tactics were based around the assumption that an officer or NCO didn't have a particularly higher chance of being shot than his men, which is fine against musket fire where being hit or not is pretty much a lottery, but with an enemy armed with rifles this was clearly not the case. Hence losses among the officers and NCOs crossing No Man's Land were extremely high, and as such the few battalions which did make it to their objectives had only a vague idea of what they were supposed to do once they got there.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Out of interest, at what point did it become unacceptable to aim for an officer in the field, or is that a myth?

Probably at the point when aiming started to change sth in the shooting :grin: But I do not think it had been ever respected, just like medieval Pope's ban on crossbows...

[spmetla]

But the peasants ought to kill the gentleman all the same shouldn't they?

And it sounds kind of, err........not reasonable, that they don't kill each other just because honour forbids it........I mean, I don't think even medieval knights were that chivalrous and code following.


I'd say more because if all of one gentleman's levies started firing at the other gentlemen instead of his levies that the other party might by prodded by their (now pissed off and scared) lord to fire at the gentlemen of the first party.

[Celtic_Punk]

Out of interest, at what point did it become unacceptable to aim for an officer in the field, or is that a myth?

During the American invasion of Canada during the war of independence, The americans were met by Canadian militia far outside Montreal. The Canadians were dug in, and ready for a fight. The american's lined up and the American commander atop his horse rode up infront of his men and yelled for the Canadian's surrender. A young private stood up, and answered him with a single shot, ripping through the generals chest, killing him instantly. We won. :canada:

Dont mess with us, later in the american campaign in canada, they got to outside quebec city. another group of Canadian militia men flanked them round the left through a forrest at night, and opened fire. The first volley killed like 80% (dont quote me on that figure, but it was most of them, if not all) of the americans while they were just sitting there, being oblivious to the dirty flanking manouever :canada:

the general Brock was hit by an American sniper aswell.
we also burned down the white house just so yah know :D

dont believe everything your country tells you america. We won 1812.

[Sheogorath]

Do you have a specific battle/date/whatever for that first one? There were three major battles I can find that took place near Montreal. The commander of the first died in 1789, of a stroke. The second surrendered before the battle even started. The third was apparently aborted.
Sounds like a folk tale to me. Especially the 'young private' bit.
And, on a side note, any commander who rides up close enough to the enemy just before a battle that he can be shot like that totally deserves what he got.

The second incident...I don't think the Americans even attacked in that direction during 1812. As far as I can tell, all the American offensives took place in the Great Lakes region.

As to the burning of DC, it should be noted that A) There's no evidence that any Canadians took part in it and B) We looted your capital too, you know :P

The subject of who 'won' is much debated. I, personally, agree with the 'nobody won' idea. Status quo ante bellum. Both sides had their fair share of embarrassing defeats and losses, and the British knew full well that the only way to 'win' was to end the war by negotiation. There was no possible way they could've mounted a campaign against the US and dealt with the politics of Europe at the time. I doubt they could have succeeded in such a campaign even IF they didn't have the whole Napoleon thing to deal with.
Besides, we had Andrew Jackson. He ate Canadians for breakfast. With utensils made of shark teeth and grizzly bear claws, which he got by swimming to Alaska every morning because Kodiak bear claws make the best forks. I'm pretty sure he had laser vision too. And turned into a giant robot.

[Celtic_Punk]

both instances were in the war of independence. I saw it on "Canada: A peoples history" when i was in grade 7 lol.

EDIT: i just found the episode its in," Episode 5 A Question of Loyalties "

actually most of the men in the DC burning were canadian volunteers, not british soldiers. The operation was run by the british however.

your objective was to take and secure canada. You failed. the borders remained the same. war of 1812 is therefore a decisive canadian victory. How can you call it a draw if you ultimately fail to achieve any objectives, and the other side defends its borders successfully?

I dont mean to get off topic but seriously...

I gotta hand it to your boys. I've been to queenston heights. anyone who thinks you can attack that position is a frigging retard. maybe if gunpowder hadn't been invented... lol

I do hope that we see NCO's with pikes. But personally I'd be just as happy watching two officers duke it out for 10 mins with sabres.

[Megas Methuselah]

Sorry, CP, but the Burning of Washington was in the war of 1812. And it was only possible after Napoleon's defeat, when the Brits could concentrate more of their efforts in North America. Before this, it was virtually a defensive war on the Canadian front. I'm not sure about it being composed of Canadian volounteers, though.

However, I have to agree that the American objective of conquering Canada was a failure. Despite this, the later British objective of taking back their colonies was also a failure, so some say it balances out. Whatever.

When judging history, never let nationalism get in your way.


Anyways, back on topic, I doubt polearms are going to be included. CA will probably think about it for a few minutes and decide it just wouldn't look right. It's likely they already have. For my part, I'll be satisfied with swords and sabres.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Canadians are taught that they won. Americans are taught that they won. I think they're both wrong, personally.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I think neither has anything to do with the topic at hand...

[Divinus Arma]

Is that a polearm in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

[Furious Mental]

When it did become unacceptable to shoot officers? When was it ever not acceptable to shoot officers? That is what light infantry were for, amongst other things.

[Sheogorath]

When it did become unacceptable to shoot officers? When was it ever not acceptable to shoot officers? That is what light infantry were for, amongst other things.

It became unacceptable to shoot officers when the European royalty got so inbred that they were dumb enough to ride around on great big horses with great big hats in brightly colored uniforms within firing distance of enemy troops :P

[Mailman653]

Canadians are taught that they won. Americans are taught that they won. I think they're both wrong, personally.

Americans aren't taught the War of 1812 :laugh4:
Its the Revolutionary war then straight to the Civil War in about 90% of history classes outside college, everything in between might get squished into a paragraph or just not mentioned at all.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Americans aren't taught the War of 1812 :laugh4:

I assumed that they were, since a textbook I have, which is directed at an American high school audience, mentions it - though not very extensively, that is true. :bow:

[adembroski]

What I remember of school coverage on the War of 1812 was it was basically a wash. I'm pretty sure it's taught accurately, if lacking detail. That's actually kind of a shock considering how inept our education system is.

[Samurai Waki]

The American Education system is built to foster nationalism, and make sure the commies don't get into our brains. :yes:

[Mailman653]

Going back to the topic, I thought this article was interesting.
End of the pike era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)#End_of_the_pike_era)

[Alerion]

according to that article pikes were abandoned by most armies before or right at the start of the game era

[Narhon]

The American Education system is built to foster nationalism, and make sure the commies don't get into our brains. :yes:


He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past. "George Orwell"


Human nature is to take a story and twist it to fit their prejudices and what they have been taught.


Now to the pikes. The officers and NCOs job is to lead not shoot the bad guy if they are worried about shooting how can they direct troops. That is why until recently many officers were issued pistols. During the American revolution the British officers suffered unusually high casualties because the Americans aimed for them. During the battle of Chapultepec during the Mexican American war the USMC had high officer and nco losses compared to enlisted troops; that is the reason for the red stripe on officer and nco blue trousers.

[adembroski]

The American Education system is built to foster nationalism, and make sure the commies don't get into our brains. :yes:

ROFL, right. You've been out of school a while, I take it?

[Sheogorath]

ROFL, right. You've been out of school a while, I take it?

Probably not even from the US. The most 'nationalist' education I got was a back when I lived in Oregon and they constantly taught us about either the Oregon Trail or Lewis and Clark, those being the only two events of any historical significance to take place in Oregon.
I do, however, constantly hear about how nationalistic and evil the US education system is from people who dont live in the US. Maybe I just missed the 'Nationalist Indoctrination' days.

[Martok]

What I remember of school coverage on the War of 1812 was it was basically a wash. I'm pretty sure it's taught accurately, if lacking detail.
Ditto that. I was taught that the war was pretty much a draw. We beat back the British, while our invasion of Canada was a miserable/laughable failure.


Back to topic:

Going by the screenshots and trailers/movies, it appears that officers will wield swords/sabers and possibly pistols as well. I don't know how accurate that would be for the time period, although I know it was like that half a century later in the American Civil War.

[Sheogorath]

Ditto that. I was taught that the war was pretty much a draw. We beat back the British, while our invasion of Canada was a miserable/laughable failure.


Back to topic:

Going by the screenshots and trailers/movies, it appears that officers will wield swords/sabers and possibly pistols as well. I don't know how accurate that would be for the time period, although I know it was like that half a century later in the American Civil War.

As I said in the OP, my knowledge is generally limited to the Russian army, but they withdrew the halberd from standard service in the middle of the Napoleonic Wars (about 1802, I think). Roughly the same time they started issuing cuiriasses to their curiassiers :P
I think, though, that at the start of the game, pretty much all regular infantry (IE: Not militias or guerrillas) should have a sword, dagger, or some other melee sidearm. Those only generally fell out of service after the bayonet was introduced...and sometimes not even then (I think the Swedes in particular held onto the sword as a standard infantry weapon for quite a while.)