Longjohn: exact spear changes?

[Dorkus]

First off, I think you guys did a great job with this patch -- both in terms of stability and gameplay.

Anyhoo I was wondering if you might be able to explain the exact nature of the changes you made to spears. I remember you mentioning that you were going to reduce their effectiveness relative to cav and swords.

Does this imply something MORE than the cost changes? For example, is it now harder for spears/pikes to get rank bonuses? Is it easier to get flank/rear attack bonuses against them? Etc.

A good number of people have been posting about differences between pre and post patch differences in battle outcomes (e.g., v1 lancers beating v2 spearmen). And it would be nice to know what (if any) changes have been made. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif

[econ21]

Good question. I wonder if it is related to increasing the lethality of protracted fights? Spearmen tend to hold off cavalry for a long time and on their own kill them slowing. The designers said the patch made kill chances increase in protracted fights. It may be that this only kicks in when a bunch of spears is fighting a single king etc, but it may be that it happens earlier.

BTW, I agree the spears seem weaker. In an SP battle on hard last night, Danish early royal knights killed a lot more of more vanilla spearmen in a head fights than I think they would have done pre-patch. I still won, but I was backed by three Welsh longbows. Without the longbows, I suspect the knights could have won a pyrrhic victory. In another battle, rebel highlanders also did a lot of violence to my spears, but they may done that pre-patch too, I am not sure.

[Fearless]

Definetly spears are weaker and cavalary stronger........much better!

[Kraxis]

I chrushed rebel spears with Steppe Cavalry...

But I have noticed that now I see three men with fighting animations in spear units.
So is this conclusive proof that there is one rank fighting and two supporting, as opposed to the suspected two fighting and two supporting?
So now I can safely put my spears in three rows without fearing a loss of rankbonus?
And what about pikes? Is it enough with five ranks now?

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[TheLastEuropean]

Quote Originally posted by Simon Appleton:
In another battle, rebel highlanders also did a lot of violence to my spears, but they may done that pre-patch too, I am not sure.[/QUOTE]

Yes, without detailed testing and stat-quoting etc. I can say that throwing my clansmen at a unit of spearmen was something I never quailed to do pre-patch because iirc they always fared well. Still, it seems the knight/spears debate was fruitful after all (heh ten pages had to produce something http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif)!!!

[Pachinko]

I really like the patch. First I did my normal mode for my campaign. Alot of spears and a little bit of Calvary, plus a little bit 1 or 2 swords. I got a loss! KOOL! 3 or 5 battles!! Now I can win or loss http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif .. Now i have 5 or 6 calvary and 3 or 4 sword! Its very differant. I like it. My map has a alot of Calvary! And know I can use my Chiv MAA. There is know beating up ChivMAA with a Militia Sergent! Cool too.

P.

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Crush your enemies, see them driven before you on the field of battle, and hear the lamentation of their women.

Dev quote>>Sigh, ye of little faith. Don't assume everything is a bug.

[This message has been edited by Pachinko (edited 11-08-2002).]

[longjohn2]

In general I made it much easier to push spearmen back in combat. They were a bit too much of a brick wall before. They now depend on having rear rank support to have good stopping power. Keeping them well formed, and avoiding turning just before going into combat is important now, especially for pikes.
Secondly I gave a 1 factor bonus to non spear infantry fighting spears/pikes with supporting ranks, unless they were charging. ie you get the bonus after the initial impact.
Thirdly I made some changes to make pikes better against spears, and to make them better at pushing back when they have supporting ranks.
I make some changes to how men form up in combat, which ought to help spears/pike keep closed up and supporting each other.
I made spear units more expensive.
I made all the expensive units cheaper.

[AgentBif]

Thanks for the details John. The changes all sound like good ones.

bif