England: bad boy of Europe?

[Ash]

I got MTW2 Gold some time ago, but left it for other games. Recently been back at it, and I must I'm having fun with the game. I used to play MTW1 a lot so some things are familiar, other things are not.

Anyway I'm playing the English on M/M (I'm not that good) and while my wars with Scotland and France (the reason d'etre for playing the English) are going fairly well, the rest of Europe hates me. And won't hesitate to attack me. Not that I mind but the lack of trade is effecting my teching up (I'm a builder at heart, I simply must build if budget allows). I recently got those Yeomen archers and armoured swordsmen, but now I think I'm going to have fight several nations at once.
I have large armies scattered around France, and a reasonable fleet of Holks and some leftover Cogs.

Is there a way to at least manage diplomacy better? I was in a war with France for ages, and everyone took that as a sign to gang up against me. I don't usually start wars (I only did with the Scots), but I'm recently at war with Spain and Venice (who betrayed our alliance), and I'm waiting for Portugal, Milan and Denmark to start attacking me. Diplomacy is pointless, I'm in everyone's black book. Hell Spain won't even accept a cease fire even though I wipped them out of France and mauling their fleets. The only ally I have left is the HRE, who is especially weak.

Then there's the pope. As the English, I decided to ignore him and he definitely hates me for him. I don't have the patience to pump assassins and keep on training them till they have a 20% chance of killing the pope when the time comes. I find 3 assissins micomanaging enough. And being as the English means I don't crusade (till there's something in it for me).

So any advice on diplomacy as Europe's bad boy? Should I simply attack everyone and be done with it (without being excommunicated)? Seems like England's destiny to me.

[FactionHeir]

In unmodded M2TW, diplomacy isn't going to get you anywhere sadly.

[GMaximus]

I've noticed that, unless you pay great attention to your standing in the world from the very beginning and keep on giving gifts to your allies, there's essentially no way you can have a good strong alliance, besides allying with someone in the other side of the world. And even when your standing in the world is near-perfect and all your neighbours love you, there's a chance that some factions will randomly declare war on your for no reason. Venice and Milan seem to love doing that.

[Akka]

Diplomacy in Total War games has always been nonsensical. For instance, the more you blood the nose of a nation, the LESS it will be keen to sign a ceasefire.

Basically, the only reliable ways to improve your standing :
- occupy, not sack and certainly not raze.
- release prisonners (you can ransom them without penalty).
- give factions money, or at least propose them beneficial exchanges.
- have lots of allies.

The problem is, factions will attack you randomly regardless, and once you're in a war, it's becoming harder and harder to manage a ceasefire, and your standing will plummet with the faction you're at war with and its allies.
Also, once you're powerful, your standing will automatically decrease with everyone, so expect being gang-banged as soon as you're becoming the major power.
Finally, being a neighbour is being a target. Expect that the only alliance/peace you can hold, are with factions NOT sharing a border with you.

If you don't begin a game and right from the start go for diplomacy and chivalry, you risk being stuck on permanent war with everyone.

[gardibolt]

As long as you don't go out of your way to offend others, and keep the Pope happy with copious gifts (ignoring the Pope is probably not a good idea), I've had very good luck as England diplomatically. At this point it may be too late to fix, but I'd certainly start with trying to repair relations with the Pope, and maybe lay off attacking anyone for a while (or assassinating or spying). But FactionHeir's probably right; there's a limit to what you can do anyway in the unmodded game.:dizzy2:

[Zaleukos]

Any country that shares a land border with you will eventually attack (the AI seems to look at the map as a RISK map with respect to borders rather than at actual distances. This makes some provinces attract enemies like flies. Holding Antwerp will for instance make both HRE (Frankfurt), Denmark (Hamburg) and whoever holds Bruges attack you. The only way to deal with this crap is to create a buffer zone of rebel held provinces by destroying all happiness buildings and raising the taxes to the max. Once you lack a common border the enemey will beg for peace.

If you do share a border and want to keep the peace there are things you can do to prolong the peace.

1) Have forces in the border provinces that vastly outnumber those of your neighbour (RISK borders). This is ironically made easier if you have many provinces and the AI only one, so where one intuitively would want short borders and choke points these only invite attacks. I've never had the English in Caen attack me when playing as France for this reason:p
2) Sending a diplomat over to gift 1000 florins every now and then seems to sometimes make the AI reconsider attacking if that was on his mind.
3) Keep your global reputation high. Getting a bad reputation early on (for instance by eliminating the scots) will amplify any AI hostility.

EDIT: It should also be noted that the AI likes to perform certain certain nonsensical naval invasions that no amount of diplomacy can prevent. Portuguese will attack Caernarvon, Milanese/Spanish/Portuguese/Moors/Papists/Sicilians will attack Ajaccio and Cagliari, Sicilians/Papists will attack Durazzo/Tunis, and English will attack Caen (if you buy it from them and lack land border) no matter what. The AI will however accept peace immediately as long as you dont have any land border, and sometimes even pay reparations.

Overall the diplomatic AI is so dumb that it takes away from the enjoyment of the game:(

[Akka]

EDIT: It should also be noted that the AI likes to perform certain certain nonsensical naval invasions that no amount of diplomacy can prevent. Portuguese will attack Caernarvon, Milanese/Spanish/Portuguese/Moors/Papists/Sicilians will attack Ajaccio and Cagliari, Sicilians/Papists will attack Durazzo/Tunis, and English will attack Caen (if you buy it from them and lack land border) no matter what. The AI will however accept peace immediately as long as you dont have any land border, and sometimes even pay reparations.
I'm pretty sure that these attacks are caused by the "missions" (like the ones you get via the Council of Noble and the like).
As such, it's not really that the AI attacks you, they rather just try to accomplish their missions.

Overall the diplomatic AI is so dumb that it takes away from the enjoyment of the game:(
The problem isn't really that the AI is "dumb", more than the AI is "nonsensical".
As in : it's nearly impossible to grasp any logic in AI's behaviour. Except, maybe, perhaps, somehow, if you entirely forget that they are supposed to be kings and doges and emperors and the like, and only see them as tools to give the player a challenge.
As you say, they act more like a Risk player, and not at all as a simulation of a faction leader. Which immensely detract from the feeling of the game, that's true.

[Zaleukos]

I'm pretty sure that these attacks are caused by the "missions" (like the ones you get via the Council of Noble and the like).
As such, it's not really that the AI attacks you, they rather just try to accomplish their missions.

That is likely part of the reason. Missions seem to follow a "if you hold province A go for province B next" pattern. But it also seems like the AI has some long term interest in those provinces as it likes to park armies on the overseas locations in question (possibly an artefact of the AI not having any routine for withdrawing from other players' territories while at peace though).



The problem isn't really that the AI is "dumb", more than the AI is "nonsensical".
As in : it's nearly impossible to grasp any logic in AI's behaviour. Except, maybe, perhaps, somehow, if you entirely forget that they are supposed to be kings and doges and emperors and the like, and only see them as tools to give the player a challenge.
As you say, they act more like a Risk player, and not at all as a simulation of a faction leader. Which immensely detract from the feeling of the game, that's true.

I agree, and our difference is more one over wording than over assessment of the AI. The AI is built as a set of disjointed "IF --- THEN ---" statements that might force attacks without any strategic overview at all, and I cant help but get the feeling that the campaign map behaviour has been left more or less unchanged since MTW1 when the game actually had a risk map. It bugs me that CA hasnt bothered to implement such basic logic as "build an attacking force first, attack second" though.

I wonder if performance wouldnt make more sense if one made the AI have goals of the type "conquer A", keep a war score, strive to build up balanced armies (now it seems to base its recruitment decisions on a per turn basis and build as many of its favourite unit as it can afford every turn), and consider the balance of forces within a certain number of turns distance from the intended stage for the campaign wouldnt go some way to fix the nonsense.

[Akka]

I agree, and our difference is more one over wording than over assessment of the AI. The AI is built as a set of disjointed "IF --- THEN ---" statements that might force attacks without any strategic overview at all, and I cant help but get the feeling that the campaign map behaviour has been left more or less unchanged since MTW1 when the game actually had a risk map. It bugs me that CA hasnt bothered to implement such basic logic as "build an attacking force first, attack second" though.
Not just words necessarily : what I mean is that the AI doesn't try to "roleplay" a leader, but rather just play as a player.
I'm not just talking about it being inefficient, but also it not making sense from a "ruler of a faction" point of view (not trying to save its hide when things go badly, for example).

I wonder if performance wouldnt make more sense if one made the AI have goals of the type "conquer A", keep a war score, strive to build up balanced armies (now it seems to base its recruitment decisions on a per turn basis and build as many of its favourite unit as it can afford every turn), and consider the balance of forces within a certain number of turns distance from the intended stage for the campaign wouldnt go some way to fix the nonsense.
Of course. Just have a look at the excellent Civ IV AI, which does all this, and "roleplay" quite convincingly on top of that.

[PrestigeX]

I think the most important thing you can do is keep morale High in your own provinces.
I usually do this by keeping my taxes low, and by ensuring I build ,, Taverns/Inns, and other type of buildings that have an effect on Public Happiness. If you get those 'Happiest Public/Most loyal' messages you are usually in a good place. So what if the pope hates you? just try not to get excommunicated unless you King is OLD.
Unless your hurting for Cash, don't SACK towns/castles, and release prisoners when its not too much trouble. You can sack cities if they are on crusade or something, like if you send a few stacks to the East or far from your homelands to do a money-run mission - i love that lol, going from town to town and just sacking for cash when you have no intention of really expanding to that area.

When playing as england, the main thing you need to keep watch for is to secure the 'oceans' immediately around London, and the cross channel cities--I forget the names, but the ones which are 'Belgium/Holland' respectively. Don't worry too much about the other ocean places.

England has arguably the best army in the game, you can easily murdalize the rest of the europeans, just build tons of longbows and armoured swordsmen, with a few cavalry units here and there, get alan mercenary horse if you can - england is ever better with some Light Cavalry.

[Marauder]

England has arguably the best army in the game, you can easily murdalize the rest of the europeans, just build tons of longbows and armoured swordsmen, with a few cavalry units here and there, get alan mercenary horse if you can - england is ever better with some Light Cavalry.

I think you can safely ignore every other post in this thread if you just work off this one paragraph =)
Once you have armored swordsman, feudal/english knights, and yeoman/retinue longbowmen, you cannot be stopped. I recommend getting a bit of seige EQ (once you have mortars and culverins, a seige becomes way easier than a field battle) and storming through Europe. The money you get from sacking cities more than makes up for the lost trade income.

At the same time, make sure to finish off Scotland and take complete control of the British Isles. Once I had all the cities and started teching up the port/wharehouse buildings my cities pulled in great trade numbers (London maxxed at 8k w/o a governor, over 9k with a good gov). If the AI ever sues for peace, make them give you a city. If they have more than three they will. Good luck =)

[Zaleukos]

Not just words necessarily : what I mean is that the AI doesn't try to "roleplay" a leader, but rather just play as a player.
I'm not just talking about it being inefficient, but also it not making sense from a "ruler of a faction" point of view (not trying to save its hide when things go badly, for example).

Well I think a more roleplaying AI would be both more efficient and more enjoyable as an opponent (trying to save ones hide when things go badly for instance seems sensible from ANY point of view;)).

AI development will be the factor that decides whether I buy ETW before it hits the bargain bin.

[Lord Preston]

I got MTW2 Gold some time ago, but left it for other games. Recently been back at it, and I must I'm having fun with the game. I used to play MTW1 a lot so some things are familiar, other things are not.

Anyway I'm playing the English on M/M (I'm not that good) and while my wars with Scotland and France (the reason d'etre for playing the English) are going fairly well, the rest of Europe hates me. And won't hesitate to attack me. Not that I mind but the lack of trade is effecting my teching up (I'm a builder at heart, I simply must build if budget allows). I recently got those Yeomen archers and armoured swordsmen, but now I think I'm going to have fight several nations at once.
I have large armies scattered around France, and a reasonable fleet of Holks and some leftover Cogs.

Is there a way to at least manage diplomacy better? I was in a war with France for ages, and everyone took that as a sign to gang up against me. I don't usually start wars (I only did with the Scots), but I'm recently at war with Spain and Venice (who betrayed our alliance), and I'm waiting for Portugal, Milan and Denmark to start attacking me. Diplomacy is pointless, I'm in everyone's black book. Hell Spain won't even accept a cease fire even though I wipped them out of France and mauling their fleets. The only ally I have left is the HRE, who is especially weak.

Then there's the pope. As the English, I decided to ignore him and he definitely hates me for him. I don't have the patience to pump assassins and keep on training them till they have a 20% chance of killing the pope when the time comes. I find 3 assissins micomanaging enough. And being as the English means I don't crusade (till there's something in it for me).

So any advice on diplomacy as Europe's bad boy? Should I simply attack everyone and be done with it (without being excommunicated)? Seems like England's destiny to me.


I would suggest reading the England guide in the guide section, i've made a couple of posts recently on what I do.

Some quick points:
- Take advantage of getting recommunicated when your king dies. So you can ignore the pope from the start till about turn 20 to 30 when your first king will die. Once he dies throw money at the pope and all is forgotten.

- Only way i've had diplomacy work is throwing vast amounts of gold at the issue. I've kept the pope happy with payments and also Denmark. Keeping a faction above So-So relationship usually keeps them peaceful unless you really annoy them.

- Wars with Scots and France at same time is a pain. Concentrate on Scotland early, once they've gone you only need weak armies to finish off Dublin and Inverness (if scotland hasn't taken them). Should remove Scotland from the game before turn 10 (on medium doing it before turn 7 should be reasonable). If France attack while your dealing with Scotland then just play defensively, if they keep attacking you they will be the ones annoying the pope and hurting there reputation.

- Rushing to get the best troops also increases your costs due to the building, the training cost and upkeep. The issue with fighting in mainland Europe is the distance, so you need quantity rather than quality. Longbowmen are more than enough to help armoured swordsmen and mailed knights while you put the rest of your income into building the economy.

[RedKnight]

Like Ash, I'm knew to M2TW and playing England...

You guys talk about giving money to the pope. Do you mean giving money to the Papal Estates?

[Yoyoma1910]

Send a diplomat to the pope and make good buddies with him.

[Ash]

In my current game, I'm in so/so to abysmal relations with everyone. Except the Poles, who I had to pay for an alliance. It's like France during the European wars prior to the 19th century all over. Everyone is against me. But it's fun. Can't get armoured swordsmen though, don't have the money to tech up which is a shame. I'm spending all my money on large armies to repel invading forces (with succes).

The AI is getting away with attacking me first most of the time (though the Spanish actually got excommunicated one time). This is probably because I'm in such poor standings with the pope. I suppose spending more time with the pope (read money) is advisable, but it's too late now I suppose.

[Galain_Ironhide]

As far as throwing money at the pope is concerned. If you are wondering "how much do I give him per turn?" Really all you need to do is offer 100-150 florins per turn (I normally do offer this for a period of 15-20turns each time) and watch your relations with the Papal States and ULTIMATELY the Pope improve every 2-3 turns. You can use this as a similar method to become popular with anybody really. That "untrustworthy" standing never seems to go away though...... :skull::skull::skull::laugh4:

[PBI]

Regarding allies betraying you... in my campaigns so far in SS6.1 I have never yet been attacked by an ally (including several that I have shared borders with for hundreds of years), so I think it may be fixed somewhat in that mod.

[Zaleukos]

I think the AI mostly runs through a series of conditions every turn (this can be found in an unpackable text file), something along the lines of:

If outnumbering its neighbour by a certain margin then attack
If no borders and at war then ask for peace
If allied then do not attack
etc

Some of the "do not attack" conditions have a chance of being overridden (so there is a chance of say 10% of the AI attacking you even if you are allies). Since that is checked EVERY turn the AI will attack you eventually as the probability adds up. There is also a setting that forces the AI to attack if you have been at peace for a certain number of turns. Many mods try to fix this so that the AI doesnt attack friends out of the blue. Stainless Steal includes some AI mod (Carls?) that address the problem.

There are a few conditions that will prevent the AI from attacking in vanilla though. The pope will not attack non-excommunicated catholics (though you can trick him into joining your attack if you are allied to him, and he will frequently enter conflict as the other Catholics dont mind attacking him). AI vassals will not attack their overlords (but overlords will attack their vassals, so AI-AI vassalisations NEVER hold:D), and the AI wont attack for a few turns immediately after making peace.

[Lord Preston]

In my current game, I'm in so/so to abysmal relations with everyone. Except the Poles, who I had to pay for an alliance. It's like France during the European wars prior to the 19th century all over. Everyone is against me. But it's fun. Can't get armoured swordsmen though, don't have the money to tech up which is a shame. I'm spending all my money on large armies to repel invading forces (with succes).

The AI is getting away with attacking me first most of the time (though the Spanish actually got excommunicated one time). This is probably because I'm in such poor standings with the pope. I suppose spending more time with the pope (read money) is advisable, but it's too late now I suppose.

You might need multiple stacks but make sure they don't get to big, early on with weak moral units you should be able to beat much bigger armies through just using a simple line of militia and flanking with mailed knights. I know this hence unless my ecomony can support it I don't bother even trying to build the building needed for armoured swordsmen or better cavalry or past longbowmen. I put that gold into boosting my economy and improving what I have (blacksmith plus population improving buildings).

Remember that (roughly) having a unit sat doing nothing for 3 turns means the upkeep cost is more than dispanding it and retraining in 3+ turns. Hence the stack used to take Scotland and Ireland typically gets dispanded appart from 1 town militia for garrison and the cavalry. Typically the cavalry will of gained quite a bit of experience and with only cavalry in your generals stack it can move quickly to France (4 turns to the south coast I think). Peasent archers or militia arn't worth moving unless you've moved ships to pick your units up and ship them direct to mainland europe, typically its not worth it as most of the time pirate ships attack my fleets and you don't really want a big naval fleet early, mines only used for movement between England and Europe as they're expensive. I only have militia on the british isles, plus maybe the king or a good govener in london who I can then use to collect militia and attack rebels then return the militia to there cities for free upkeep.

Try and time your production of units to coincide with other production so the army pops out together rather than producing what you can then waiting for more units to be available. IE. Wanting to add 5 longbowmen to a existing stack, don't make 3 then have 0 available for 2 turns making you waste gold supporting the produced units. Wait till you can produce all 5 in back to back turns (3 then 2) so your general can collect all 5 at one time (I don't move units without generals unless they can get from city to city without stopping).

In my experience the pope only cares about who kills christians and not who starts it, so basically he dislikes the winner. Usually I win the most hence he gets upset at me the most although when I get "stop fighting or get excommunicated" I notice the hostile nation seems to behave as if they got the same message. Of course starting a war affects how people view you, a warmonger, even if the nation you declare war on is sending loads of assassins and such at you. Strike quick and hard then consolidate what you gain and upgrade/reinforce your armies if the pope gets involved and you don't want to get excommunicated.

I've been excommunicated and then worked my way back up to nearly full relationship before being recommunicated which was only due to the pope or my king dying. Remember to try and get someone who likes you to be pope, if they all dislike you at least vote for who you think will win as they will remember who voted for them.

As far as alliances go, depends on how the game goes early. Typically I try to ally with Denmark to secure the north-east flank, HRE so I have a ally on the other side of France/Milanise, and finally either Portugal or Spain to have another flank of France covered. As long as you have trade agreements (Denmark, Spain and Portugal are most important early once you have secured british isles and have built ports for sea routes) your economy should be fine, there feelings about you don't affect trade until they cut it and I can't remember them cancelling trade agreement without declaring war.